On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 1:36:21 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/16/19 10:08 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Because it has that optional circuit that other appliance modules don't
have that we just learned about from Mark? IDK now, it's possible they
all have that circuit. I know that the appliance modules I had
were not capable of lighting a CFL like a wall switch would. Looks
like that circuit passes ~25 ma, which may not be enough to light a CFL,
but will light an LED.

The 25ma would have a duty cycle a little less than 50% (because of the
diode). There should also be a short burst near the beginning of the
cycle, because of the capacitor.

I accounted for that in the 25ma average. It's about twice that for
120V.



IIRC, a CFL itself requires more current than that, although the
capacitors in the electronic ballast can store enough to activate it in
short bursts.

A LED will produce visible light with very little current (25ma is more
than enough). An incandescent won't since 25ma won't heat it enough.


I guess that would depends on what size LEDs and how many there are.
But I agree, it could explain why I've never seen an appliance module
light up a bulb, I only have limited experience with using CFL.

So thanks for setting us straight. The real problem with X-10 is that
it's basically low quality, low reliability, cheap stuff. It's OK
for something where if it doesn't work sometimes it's no big deal.
My most frustrating experience was where I had an appliance module that
was working fine, with the controller in another room. Worked fine for
a year, then suddenly stopped working. Yet that module would work fine
in another receptacle. The controller and the module were on separate
legs, which makes it less likely to work, but somehow it worked fine
for a year. I even tried putting caps across the two legs, still
wouldn't work.






--
9 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand - shown how to feel
good; and told to feel bad." [Roger Waters, from The Final Cut (Pink
Floyd)]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 19:51:57 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/16/2019 5:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 05:51:45 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?
Doesn't on any of mine


Some LED's do, some don't, in my experience.

It's simple. If a voltmeter across the output with the switch off
reads less than about 15 volts the LEDs will not glow and the current
sense is NOT enabled.
No arguments required. Mine do not read a high enough voltage to light
a line voltage led - period. My lamp modules do

On 12/17/19 3:47 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The 25ma would have a duty cycle a little less than 50% (because of the
diode). There should also be a short burst near the beginning of the
cycle, because of the capacitor.

I accounted for that in the 25ma average. It's about twice that for
120V.

That makes sense, and is about what I calculated.

[snip]

So thanks for setting us straight. The real problem with X-10 is that
it's basically low quality, low reliability, cheap stuff. It's OK
for something where if it doesn't work sometimes it's no big deal.
My most frustrating experience was where I had an appliance module that
was working fine, with the controller in another room. Worked fine for
a year, then suddenly stopped working. Yet that module would work fine
in another receptacle. The controller and the module were on separate
legs, which makes it less likely to work, but somehow it worked fine
for a year. I even tried putting caps across the two legs, still
wouldn't work.

And no collision detection, which explains why my system became even
less reliable as I added more X10 stuff. I remember one thing I read
about "recombinant commands" occurring when I tried to control one
device and at the same time one of the motion detectors tried to control
another. The result was a DIFFERENT device being operated.

I found X10 motion detectors to be worse than useless, since they didn't
pay attention to what was going on when they sent their commands.

[snip stale sig]

--
7 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Evolution, the Greatest Theory Ever Told!"

On Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 9:48:59 AM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/17/19 3:47 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The 25ma would have a duty cycle a little less than 50% (because of the
diode). There should also be a short burst near the beginning of the
cycle, because of the capacitor.

I accounted for that in the 25ma average. It's about twice that for
120V.

That makes sense, and is about what I calculated.

[snip]

So thanks for setting us straight. The real problem with X-10 is that
it's basically low quality, low reliability, cheap stuff. It's OK
for something where if it doesn't work sometimes it's no big deal.
My most frustrating experience was where I had an appliance module that
was working fine, with the controller in another room. Worked fine for
a year, then suddenly stopped working. Yet that module would work fine
in another receptacle. The controller and the module were on separate
legs, which makes it less likely to work, but somehow it worked fine
for a year. I even tried putting caps across the two legs, still
wouldn't work.

And no collision detection, which explains why my system became even
less reliable as I added more X10 stuff. I remember one thing I read
about "recombinant commands" occurring when I tried to control one
device and at the same time one of the motion detectors tried to control
another. The result was a DIFFERENT device being operated.

I found X10 motion detectors to be worse than useless, since they didn't
pay attention to what was going on when they sent their commands.


Yes, I kind of agree. They are OK if reliability isn't essential and
unpredictable events like you cite above don't have bad consequences.
It's an old, crude, cheap system that came out decades ago and that
AFAIK, no one has put any more development into. On the other hand,
if you have some simple, non-essential use for it, you can put
something together for very little money. But for sure it's unsuitable
for any serious home automation applications.

I used it for a motion detector to turn on lights above the garage.
It worked OK, pretty reliable, certainly reliable enough for that.
But the motion detectors only lasted about two years or less.
But being $5 or whatever, that was acceptable too. And then when
I tried to go to CFL, well you know what happened there. Three
lights and the choice was either to put a regular bulb in one,
in which case they don't look right, or not use CFL at all.

I don't have any experience with any other system, but hopefully
the more expensive, modern ones work better. That experience I
had where the appliance module worked for a couple years in one
location, then with nothing identifiable changing in the house,
suddenly stopped working. But it would work in some other
receptacles. It was the only module I had at the time, would have
been interesting to try a new one, possible it was degraded
somehow. But I moved on to a different solution, ie putting the
light on it's own simple timer.

Scott L is right. My Simpson is way off. No power touching terminals on wall switch. Nice sparks with leads touching neg, bottom wire on switch and skipping off and touching aluminum body of same. No x10.

F. Yous are all correct in that I do not know what I am doing. I will post the fix.

On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:48:53 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/17/19 3:47 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The 25ma would have a duty cycle a little less than 50% (because of the
diode). There should also be a short burst near the beginning of the
cycle, because of the capacitor.

I accounted for that in the 25ma average. It's about twice that for
120V.

That makes sense, and is about what I calculated.

[snip]

So thanks for setting us straight. The real problem with X-10 is that
it's basically low quality, low reliability, cheap stuff. It's OK
for something where if it doesn't work sometimes it's no big deal.
My most frustrating experience was where I had an appliance module that
was working fine, with the controller in another room. Worked fine for
a year, then suddenly stopped working. Yet that module would work fine
in another receptacle. The controller and the module were on separate
legs, which makes it less likely to work, but somehow it worked fine
for a year. I even tried putting caps across the two legs, still
wouldn't work.

And no collision detection, which explains why my system became even
less reliable as I added more X10 stuff. I remember one thing I read
about "recombinant commands" occurring when I tried to control one
device and at the same time one of the motion detectors tried to control
another. The result was a DIFFERENT device being operated.

I found X10 motion detectors to be worse than useless, since they didn't
pay attention to what was going on when they sent their commands.

[snip stale sig]
I have 2 that interfere, turn #1 on, no problem. Turn number 2 on and
#1 goes off. Turn #2 on first - no problem. Turn #3 off (don't have #3
implemented -) and #1 goes off. Same with #4. Turn #3 off, and #1 goes
off too. (using HR12A controller)

On 12/18/19 11:48 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Yes, I kind of agree. They are OK if reliability isn't essential and
unpredictable events like you cite above don't have bad consequences.
It's an old, crude, cheap system that came out decades ago and that
AFAIK, no one has put any more development into. On the other hand,
if you have some simple, non-essential use for it, you can put
something together for very little money. But for sure it's unsuitable
for any serious home automation applications.

It could be acceptable on a simple system (such as ONE X10 transmitter).
More complex systems have more trouble. I had a macro that controlled
several devices in response to a single button. That I added a motion
detector to replace that button, where the motion detector "ON"
triggered the macro. Then the stupid motion detector would send an "OFF"
right in the middle of the macro. Something went wrong almost 100% of
the time.

After that I started using X10 just for a few simple things, rather than
the extensive setup I used to have.

BTW, I did consider using "OFF" to trigger the macro. That was also
unacceptable, since it meant I COULDN'T MOVE (so as to trigger another
motion detector) until the macro finished.

--
6 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Die Gedanken sind frei!"

On 12/18/19 9:09 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

I have 2 that interfere, turn #1 on, no problem. Turn number 2 on and
#1 goes off. Turn #2 on first - no problem. Turn #3 off (don't have #3
implemented -) and #1 goes off. Same with #4. Turn #3 off, and #1 goes
off too. (using HR12A controller)

That does sound like the kind of stuff that happened when I used X10
extensively. A similar thing with a later system (Z-wave?).

--
6 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Die Gedanken sind frei!"

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:25:54 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/18/19 9:09 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

I have 2 that interfere, turn #1 on, no problem. Turn number 2 on and
#1 goes off. Turn #2 on first - no problem. Turn #3 off (don't have #3
implemented -) and #1 goes off. Same with #4. Turn #3 off, and #1 goes
off too. (using HR12A controller)

That does sound like the kind of stuff that happened when I used X10
extensively. A similar thing with a later system (Z-wave?).
Fortunately I have virtually nothing invested in the system and I
just use it for a few "convenience" items - all accessory lighting so
it doesn't matter if it screws up - I just have to keep poking buttons
'till I get the results I'm looking for. It's not the controller
because using the RCA HC40TX controller on #1 and #2 gives the same
results- - - . The GE system is more reliable and does not interfere
with the X10 and RCA (which are compatible systems) Seems today
anything with RCA on it is crap.