In article , lid says...

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.



I am finally able to answer my question about the Google/Alexia type
modules. At least for one type. The modules came in and the ones I got
are round and plug into the wall socket, then you plug your device to
that. They do have a relay and do switch off all the power. I had a
'60 watt equivelent' LED bulb pluged into it and it does not glow at
all. Putting a digital meter on the socket and nothing else I get 122
volts while on and 1.3 volts while off. Not sure exectally where the
1.3 volts is comming from , but being measured with a Fluke digital
meter I would guess it is just some small capacitive coupling across the
wiring. Not enough for me to put any load on to see if that small amount
would go lower or to zero.

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.



I have 2 of those in use now, which
require additional load resistors because of this (one controls a CFL,
the other a LCD TV with LED backlight).

The code has been updated to require a neutral at all switch locations,
that will allow switches that connect to the neutral to be used,
eliminating the problems with LED, CFL flickering or partially lighting
with the switches that don't use a neutral.

It doesn't automatically eliminate it, when you consider existing wiring.

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:55:31 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 2:59 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

Since X-10 is made by anyone, cheap crap, from China, who knows what
each one does. But the essential concept is that there is no reason
for any current to flow in the load with an appliance module. It's
plugged into a receptacle and has the neutral available to keep the
X-10 stuff running. The X-10 appliance modules I've used make a distinctive
click as the relay closes, so what would the purpose be to going around
the relay and providing some small current to the load all the time?
It would clearly require some extra circuitry and I don't see the possible
reasoning.







The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

[snip]

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:35:47 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off. I have 2 of those in use now, which
require additional load resistors because of this (one controls a CFL,
the other a LCD TV with LED backlight).

Well, both of my appliance modules work perfectly with both LED and
CF lamps. These are plug in modules, not hardwired switch
replacements.

The same issues exist with occupancy sensor light switches too. Some
work without a neutral. Some don't. Some won't switch LEDs reliably -
the ones with a neutral DO word significantly better.

The code has been updated to require a neutral at all switch locations,
that will allow switches that connect to the neutral to be used,
eliminating the problems with LED, CFL flickering or partially lighting
with the switches that don't use a neutral.

It doesn't automatically eliminate it, when you consider existing wiring.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:55:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/11/19 2:59 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

[snip]
My "appliance module" works fine. My "lamp module" makes the lights
glow - as does my Noma outdoor electronic timer for the christmas
lights. My modules are X10 Powerhouse, RCA Home Control and GE - The
only Lamp control is X10- - the rest are "appliance modules" - a mix
of manufacturers..
Connecting a high impedence VOM across the outlet of an appliance
module with it turned off registers 0.0 volts.
Doing the same on the lamp control module reads 83.2 volts.
The "appliance modules" are 3 wire (grounded) while the lampmodules
are 2 wire (polarized)

The volt-meter readings pretty much prove my thesis.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.
A minor correction to your statement - A load should not be
controlled by switching a neutral. No problem with a DPST switch which
switches BOTH power and neutral (as is done on all "double insulated"
appliances)

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:22:23 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v
circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement.
Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a
residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the
white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete
conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get
up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some
#1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:50:25 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:22:23 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v
circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement.
Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a
residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the
white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete
conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get
up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some
#1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.
Electric heat was pretty common in residential use, so a residential
sparky could be expected to have the cable available - but it was
odten AWG12 instead of 14 - - - Discrete wire in residential use here
in Ontario is excedingly rare outside of large MURBs

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:55:03 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:50:25 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:22:23 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v
circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement.
Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a
residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the
white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete
conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get
up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some
#1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.
Electric heat was pretty common in residential use, so a residential
sparky could be expected to have the cable available - but it was
odten AWG12 instead of 14 - - - Discrete wire in residential use here
in Ontario is excedingly rare outside of large MURBs

Typically 240v 15&20a loads get wired with garden variety 2 wire Romex
and the white is reidentified. They might run 10/3 to a water heater
and cut off the white wire, just because they don't carry 10/2. That
was a non issue with dryers and ranges since 250.50 (250-50) always
said you were using an (insulated) neutral as a ground so you were
already running a 3 wire cable. Using 2 wire and the bare ground for
the neutral was never allowed. They used to make cables with no bare
ground but that stopped in the 50s - early 60s time frame.

Across the lake from you in Chicago, pipe was required in residential
but now Romex is creeping in. I think the suburbs were using Romex for
years tho. A nice compromise for residential is smurf tube. You get
most of the advantages of pipe with a much easier installation and not
a whole lot higher cost. I am fixing to exploit that in my addition
as we speak when I add another switch to one of my 3 way loops. I am
going to have to shove another conductor down the tube in one run (if
I didn't pull a spare to begin with).

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 20:50:04 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:55:03 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:50:25 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:22:23 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v
circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement.
Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a
residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the
white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete
conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get
up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some
#1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.
Electric heat was pretty common in residential use, so a residential
sparky could be expected to have the cable available - but it was
odten AWG12 instead of 14 - - - Discrete wire in residential use here
in Ontario is excedingly rare outside of large MURBs

Typically 240v 15&20a loads get wired with garden variety 2 wire Romex
and the white is reidentified. They might run 10/3 to a water heater
and cut off the white wire, just because they don't carry 10/2. That
was a non issue with dryers and ranges since 250.50 (250-50) always
said you were using an (insulated) neutral as a ground so you were
already running a 3 wire cable. Using 2 wire and the bare ground for
the neutral was never allowed. They used to make cables with no bare
ground but that stopped in the 50s - early 60s time frame.

Across the lake from you in Chicago, pipe was required in residential
but now Romex is creeping in. I think the suburbs were using Romex for
years tho. A nice compromise for residential is smurf tube. You get
most of the advantages of pipe with a much easier installation and not
a whole lot higher cost. I am fixing to exploit that in my addition
as we speak when I add another switch to one of my 3 way loops. I am
going to have to shove another conductor down the tube in one run (if
I didn't pull a spare to begin with).
Red jacket "heatex" cable appears to be a Canadian oddity

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 21:38:42 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 20:50:04 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:55:03 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:50:25 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:22:23 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:44:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:58:07 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , lid says...

I found several of those around here, when I installed ceiling fans. The
box would have a bundle of black wires and a bundle of white wires. The
black bundle would usually have one white (for the switch loop) in it.




I don't know the code now.

Way back it was common to use the same wire that had a black and white,
bare wire for everything. So going to the wall switch you would have
the black, a white that should be marked to black usually by tape and
the bare. When that wire gets back to the junction box, the white wire
should be marked black. The black marking may or may not be done
depending on how sloppy the electrician and inspectors are.

That is because the black ( hot ) wire goes to the switch and is broken
to cut off the current and back to the light. A netural wire should not
be switched.

Not that long ago, there was not a requirement to reidentify the white
wire in a switch loop. That is where the standard of using the white
for the hot in the loop started. Then at the light the user would be
presented with a black (switched) wire for the luminaire and the
normal white neutral. It was always polite to reidentify this wire but
not required.

The rule changed in 1999 and now you have to reidentify it. Since
adoption by the AHJ can take years, there are probably still houses
built in 2002-3 that were still under the 96 code.
I believe marking was required in CANADIAN code as far back as at
least 1969. I know when working with my dad back then I had to tape
them. Black heat shrink tubing made the job easier - as did using
electric heating cable (220 volt) (red/black) for switch drops in
later years.

It was required for things other than switch loops here too (240v
circuits mostly). The 99 change added switch loops to the requirement.
Two wire cable without a white wire was pretty rare, particularly on a
residential sparky's truck. That is why they allow reidentifying the
white wire in a cable. You can't do it if you are pulling discrete
conductors. You need to use the appropriate color wire until you get
up to 4 ga when anything but black is harder to find. I do have some
#1 in red, black and white tho so it is not impossible to get.
Electric heat was pretty common in residential use, so a residential
sparky could be expected to have the cable available - but it was
odten AWG12 instead of 14 - - - Discrete wire in residential use here
in Ontario is excedingly rare outside of large MURBs

Typically 240v 15&20a loads get wired with garden variety 2 wire Romex
and the white is reidentified. They might run 10/3 to a water heater
and cut off the white wire, just because they don't carry 10/2. That
was a non issue with dryers and ranges since 250.50 (250-50) always
said you were using an (insulated) neutral as a ground so you were
already running a 3 wire cable. Using 2 wire and the bare ground for
the neutral was never allowed. They used to make cables with no bare
ground but that stopped in the 50s - early 60s time frame.

Across the lake from you in Chicago, pipe was required in residential
but now Romex is creeping in. I think the suburbs were using Romex for
years tho. A nice compromise for residential is smurf tube. You get
most of the advantages of pipe with a much easier installation and not
a whole lot higher cost. I am fixing to exploit that in my addition
as we speak when I add another switch to one of my 3 way loops. I am
going to have to shove another conductor down the tube in one run (if
I didn't pull a spare to begin with).
Red jacket "heatex" cable appears to be a Canadian oddity

If I saw red jacketed cable it would say "fire alarm cable" to me. We3
have pretty much settled on white (14ga), yellow (12ga) and orange
(10ga) for NM cable.
MC cable gets stripes on it indicating the color of the conductors
inside or some other designations like red for alarm cable by at least
one manufacturer (AFC).

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]

--
12 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca (4 BCE - 65 CE), Roman
philosopher and dramatist

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]

--
12 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
false, and by the rulers as useful." -- Seneca (4 BCE - 65 CE), Roman
philosopher and dramatist


I don't see a link to the schematic.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????. Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Forward the link to the schematic

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 18:25:48 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????. Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Forward the link to the schematic

I have used X-10 modules for nearly all of the 40 years since they
were introduced. Even though they were relay based, the appliance
modules did send a small amount of current through the load. This was
NOT to power the device, but rather to sense if the load was there.
You could turn a module on by sending the appropriate X-10 command to
it -or- by turning the load off then on. That was a great idea except
power glitches would often cause an appliance module to turn on
unintentionly. There were many articles written about how to disable
the feature. I can't remember the exact details, but you cut out a
particular diode or resistor. After the mod, the module could only be
controlled via X-10 signals and no current flowed through the load
when off. That was the whole story for decades until CCFLs and LEDs
came along causing the sensing current to become a serious issue. I
think they started producing appliance modules without the sensing
feature for that reason, but I never bought any that way. So, getting
back to the post I am responding to... What schematic? One from the
late 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000's. I am sure there were many slightly
different designs along the way.
Pat

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-5, Pat wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 18:25:48 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????. Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Forward the link to the schematic

I have used X-10 modules for nearly all of the 40 years since they
were introduced. Even though they were relay based, the appliance
modules did send a small amount of current through the load. This was
NOT to power the device, but rather to sense if the load was there.
You could turn a module on by sending the appropriate X-10 command to
it -or- by turning the load off then on. That was a great idea except
power glitches would often cause an appliance module to turn on
unintentionly. There were many articles written about how to disable
the feature. I can't remember the exact details, but you cut out a
particular diode or resistor. After the mod, the module could only be
controlled via X-10 signals and no current flowed through the load
when off. That was the whole story for decades until CCFLs and LEDs
came along causing the sensing current to become a serious issue. I
think they started producing appliance modules without the sensing
feature for that reason, but I never bought any that way. So, getting
back to the post I am responding to... What schematic? One from the
late 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000's. I am sure there were many slightly
different designs along the way.
Pat

Mark just made a post where he said he had found a schematic and seemed
to think he included a link, but there was none. For an appliance
module, that we agree has a relay in it, what would the purpose be of
having something go around the relay to provide a small current to the
load all the time? And if that's so, that current must be much smaller
than the current in the X-10 switches and similar, that powers them
so that they can have the receiver powered. Otherwise the appliance
modules would also light up CFL, LEDs, etc and at least the ones I've
used did not do that.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:45:54 -0500, Pat
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 18:25:48 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????. Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Forward the link to the schematic

I have used X-10 modules for nearly all of the 40 years since they
were introduced. Even though they were relay based, the appliance
modules did send a small amount of current through the load. This was
NOT to power the device, but rather to sense if the load was there.
You could turn a module on by sending the appropriate X-10 command to
it -or- by turning the load off then on. That was a great idea except
power glitches would often cause an appliance module to turn on
unintentionly. There were many articles written about how to disable
the feature. I can't remember the exact details, but you cut out a
particular diode or resistor. After the mod, the module could only be
controlled via X-10 signals and no current flowed through the load
when off. That was the whole story for decades until CCFLs and LEDs
came along causing the sensing current to become a serious issue. I
think they started producing appliance modules without the sensing
feature for that reason, but I never bought any that way. So, getting
back to the post I am responding to... What schematic? One from the
late 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000's. I am sure there were many slightly
different designs along the way.
Pat

The schematic the poster claimed to have checked.
And the only X10 units I have experienced problems with switching
non-incandescent lamp loads with wwere lamp modules, not appliance
modules - going back 30 years or so. I'm sure all of my current
devices are over 25 years old - and some DEFINITELY over 30.

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.

--
11 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I found him, I've got Jesus in the trunk"

On 12/14/19 11:44 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

The schematic the poster claimed to have checked.
And the only X10 units I have experienced problems with switching
non-incandescent lamp loads with wwere lamp modules, not appliance
modules - going back 30 years or so. I'm sure all of my current
devices are over 25 years old - and some DEFINITELY over 30.

Not just lights. I had a TV that turned itself back on a few seconds
after the module was turned off. There was a definite click from the
module as it turned back on. That was the reason I added the "offer"
plug (a slight additional load).

--
11 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I found him, I've got Jesus in the trunk"

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.
That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled
(or installed, even) in many versions.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.

That 1n4004 (3) is the part someone here said you remove if you want
to eliminate that feature.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:20:05 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.
That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled
(or installed, even) in many versions.

But Mark's right that if some appliance modules include it, then there is current in
the load, even with the relay off. Looks to be about 25ma. They call that
circuit the "local current sense". Translation would seem to be that it's
there to detect if a load is plugged in with the relay off. I've never
seen that indicated, sensed, communicated in any X-10 stuff I've had.
Nor can I understand the purpose.

On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?

On 12/12/2019 11:23 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:55:31 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 2:59 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

Since X-10 is made by anyone, cheap crap, from China, who knows what
each one does. But the essential concept is that there is no reason
for any current to flow in the load with an appliance module. It's
plugged into a receptacle and has the neutral available to keep the
X-10 stuff running. The X-10 appliance modules I've used make a distinctive
click as the relay closes, so what would the purpose be to going around
the relay and providing some small current to the load all the time?
It would clearly require some extra circuitry and I don't see the possible
reasoning.







The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

[snip]

--
13 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking."

For local turn on by the appliance switch - as several here have clearly
stated.

On 12/12/2019 1:15 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:55:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/11/19 2:59 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

You don't understand - On a relayed remote control the remote
control and the controlled load are on separate circuit segnents

Could you have not tried it?

I just got out an appliance module and connected a string of cheap
Christmas lights. When the module is "off" the lights still glow
(although more dimly than when on).

The usual "solution" I saw on the home automation newsgroup was to add
an incandescent light in parallel. It is enough of a load to reduce the
voltage below the LED threshold (this is 30 LEDs in series).

BTW, If I had designed the X10 appliance modules, what you said would be
true (off would actually be off). It isn't.

[snip]
My "appliance module" works fine. My "lamp module" makes the lights
glow - as does my Noma outdoor electronic timer for the christmas
lights. My modules are X10 Powerhouse, RCA Home Control and GE - The
only Lamp control is X10- - the rest are "appliance modules" - a mix
of manufacturers..
Connecting a high impedence VOM across the outlet of an appliance
module with it turned off registers 0.0 volts.
Doing the same on the lamp control module reads 83.2 volts.
The "appliance modules" are 3 wire (grounded) while the lampmodules
are 2 wire (polarized)

The volt-meter readings pretty much prove my thesis.


And I have an appliance module controlled light across the room glowing
dimly with it's LED while turned off. I consider it a night light.

On 12/14/2019 1:21 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:20:05 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.
That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled
(or installed, even) in many versions.

But Mark's right that if some appliance modules include it, then there is current in
the load, even with the relay off. Looks to be about 25ma. They call that
circuit the "local current sense". Translation would seem to be that it's
there to detect if a load is plugged in with the relay off. I've never
seen that indicated, sensed, communicated in any X-10 stuff I've had.
Nor can I understand the purpose.


It was so you could turn on the lamp or appliance beside you without
having to go to the X10 controller box or switch. All appliance modules
I have except one I modified have it. They are all old.

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 9:11:35 AM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
On 12/14/2019 1:21 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:20:05 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.
That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled
(or installed, even) in many versions.

But Mark's right that if some appliance modules include it, then there is current in
the load, even with the relay off. Looks to be about 25ma. They call that
circuit the "local current sense". Translation would seem to be that it's
there to detect if a load is plugged in with the relay off. I've never
seen that indicated, sensed, communicated in any X-10 stuff I've had.
Nor can I understand the purpose.


It was so you could turn on the lamp or appliance beside you without
having to go to the X10 controller box or switch. All appliance modules
I have except one I modified have it. They are all old.

And how did it do that? Presumably for X-10 control the appliance
is left on. Did it detect you turning the appliance off and then
back on again and then apply power? That would make sense.

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:52:07 AM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?

Because it has that optional circuit that other appliance modules don't
have that we just learned about from Mark? IDK now, it's possible they
all have that circuit. I know that the appliance modules I had
were not capable of lighting a CFL like a wall switch would. Looks
like that circuit passes ~25 ma, which may not be enough to light a CFL,
but will light an LED.

On 12/16/19 7:51 AM, Bob F wrote:

[snip]

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?

A disconnected (as in turned off) LED acts as a deity detector. It
lights because of the presence of a supreme being :-)

--
9 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

"I DO want your money, because god wants your money!" [Reverend Larry,
from _Repo_Man_]

On 12/16/19 8:04 AM, Bob F wrote:

[snip]

And I have an appliance module controlled light across the room glowing
dimly with it's LED while turned off. I consider it a night light.

Maybe in a hall or kitchen, useful if you live in the country where it
can get really dark. If possible, I don't accept ANY visible light in my
bedroom.

--
9 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand - shown how to feel
good; and told to feel bad." [Roger Waters, from The Final Cut (Pink
Floyd)]

On 12/16/19 8:11 AM, Bob F wrote:

[snip]

It was so you could turn on the lamp or appliance beside you without
having to go to the X10 controller box or switch. All appliance modules
I have except one I modified have it. They are all old.

I forget why I didn't modify them. Maybe it's time to consider it again.
It should be easy (a 1N4004 diode looks different from a 1N4148 which
all the others are).

BTW, I don't have any old enough to be identified "BSR".

--
9 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand - shown how to feel
good; and told to feel bad." [Roger Waters, from The Final Cut (Pink
Floyd)]

On 12/16/19 10:08 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Because it has that optional circuit that other appliance modules don't
have that we just learned about from Mark? IDK now, it's possible they
all have that circuit. I know that the appliance modules I had
were not capable of lighting a CFL like a wall switch would. Looks
like that circuit passes ~25 ma, which may not be enough to light a CFL,
but will light an LED.

The 25ma would have a duty cycle a little less than 50% (because of the
diode). There should also be a short burst near the beginning of the
cycle, because of the capacitor.

IIRC, a CFL itself requires more current than that, although the
capacitors in the electronic ballast can store enough to activate it in
short bursts.

A LED will produce visible light with very little current (25ma is more
than enough). An incandescent won't since 25ma won't heat it enough.

--
9 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"By the cold and religious we were taken in hand - shown how to feel
good; and told to feel bad." [Roger Waters, from The Final Cut (Pink
Floyd)]

On 12/16/2019 8:06 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 9:11:35 AM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
On 12/14/2019 1:21 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:20:05 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:02:09 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/13/19 5:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:01:26 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/12/19 1:18 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

I found an online schematic of an appliance module. Notice what is
connected to the HOT side of the output (the relay is not the only thing).

[snip]
Of course not - but check the scematic - is the "not the only thing"
part IN SERIES with the terminals of the relay???????.

Parallel.

Is it in series
with the load with the relay contacts open?????

Yes. Line (hot) in, those components, Line out, load, neutral.

Forward the link to the schematic

Sorry for the omission. Here it is:

http://www.edcheung.com/automa/am486.gif

The receptacle is at the upper right, and the relay to the left of it.
Note the 2.2K resistor and 1N4004 diode between line in and line out
(the internal ground indicated by the triangle symbol is line not
neutral or ground). The components connected to point A seem to be to
detect voltage drop.
That #3 circuit was optional - local current sense - and not enabled
(or installed, even) in many versions.

But Mark's right that if some appliance modules include it, then there is current in
the load, even with the relay off. Looks to be about 25ma. They call that
circuit the "local current sense". Translation would seem to be that it's
there to detect if a load is plugged in with the relay off. I've never
seen that indicated, sensed, communicated in any X-10 stuff I've had.
Nor can I understand the purpose.


It was so you could turn on the lamp or appliance beside you without
having to go to the X10 controller box or switch. All appliance modules
I have except one I modified have it. They are all old.

And how did it do that? Presumably for X-10 control the appliance
is left on. Did it detect you turning the appliance off and then
back on again and then apply power? That would make sense.


Exactly that. Or turning it on if it happened to be turned off at the time.

On 12/16/2019 8:08 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 8:52:07 AM UTC-5, Bob F wrote:
On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?

Because it has that optional circuit that other appliance modules don't
have that we just learned about from Mark? IDK now, it's possible they
all have that circuit. I know that the appliance modules I had
were not capable of lighting a CFL like a wall switch would. Looks
like that circuit passes ~25 ma, which may not be enough to light a CFL,
but will light an LED.


For years and years, they all had that function.

On 12/16/2019 10:20 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/16/19 8:04 AM, Bob F wrote:

[snip]

And I have an appliance module controlled light across the room
glowing dimly with it's LED while turned off. I consider it a night
light.

Maybe in a hall or kitchen, useful if you live in the country where it
can get really dark. If possible, I don't accept ANY visible light in my
bedroom.


It's in my living room.

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 05:51:45 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?
Doesn't on any of mine

On 12/16/2019 5:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 05:51:45 -0800, Bob F wrote:

On 12/12/2019 11:18 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-5, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/11/19 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

The other type uses the neutral so that it doesn't have any current flowing
through the load when the device is off. An example of that is the X-10
appliance module that plugs into a receptacle and then the load plugs into
it. It gets it's power between hot and neutral at the receptacle.
Like the other poster said, it uses a relay for the load, there is no current
in the load when it's off.

I have used enough X10 switches of different types to know that there IS
current through the load when the switch is off. Also, I've seen
schematic diagrams (such as for an appliance module) that show the path
past the relay for this current.

A receptacle module causes less trouble with this, but it is still NOT
free of load current when off.

Again, only with some of the devices, eg a wall switch. There is no current
through the load with the appliance modules, when it's off.

Then why does the LED glow when the relay module is switched off on my
appliance module controlled floor lamp?
Doesn't on any of mine


Some LED's do, some don't, in my experience.

On 12/16/19 9:51 PM, Bob F wrote:

[snip]

Some LED's do, some don't, in my experience.

True. I don't always know why. The first day after putting out Christmas
lights, I need to check that everything really went off.

--
8 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

A fools prayer:

Dear Lord, Please help us not to be blasphemers.In Jesus
name we pray....

[Bill Huston]