Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#42
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
|
#43
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
|
#44
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. |
#45
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:57:37 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My mistake, mine does have 3 wires. Looked at the wrong receptical. See another post. That's OK I was wrong about the year the NEC required kitchen GFCIs (it was 87 and the ones near the sink). At least we corrected our mistake. ;-) |
#46
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... e Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s, they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition, which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized. I think that's pretty much what I had just said... I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That could have been pretty common back then... -- |
#47
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/19 12:29 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
[snip] Or who are unforutnate enough that they can't afford a home and must rely on their slum^H^H^H^Hlandlord to provide a safe evironment? OT: I wonder now many people know about that method of showing control characters. CTRL-H used to show that as you type. |
#48
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/19 1:52 PM, wrote:
[snip] To be legal now, a piece of equipment with a non polarized plug needs a 2 pole operating switch because you still need to switch the ungrounded conductor. If there is no switch, like a wall wart, this is not an issue. One thing that has a non-polarized plug is a string of miniature Christmas lights. These have 2 little fuses in them. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Rough work, iconoclasm, but the only way to get at truth." [Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., 1860] |
#49
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
Jim B writes:
On 8/5/19 12:29 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote: [snip] Or who are unforutnate enough that they can't afford a home and must rely on their slum^H^H^H^Hlandlord to provide a safe evironment? OT: I wonder now many people know about that method of showing control characters. CTRL-H used to show that as you type. It almost never showed the sequence '^H' when you type. Instead, it backspaced over the most recently typed character. |
#51
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 18:26:01 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. I am not sure how they are connected, but I seem to have plenty in the kitchen. Two on one counter, two on another, one behind the refrigerator that is for it only,one at the end of a bar that one end is at a wall, two more near floor level that could be used. In one general area I have a can opener, toaster, food processor and 2 wall warts plugged in. The next duplex down the counter has the coffee maker and a wall wart for the answering machine. Out of 8 in 4 feet I have 1 empty slot. |
#52
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... e Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s, they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition, which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized. I think that's pretty much what I had just said... I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That could have been pretty common back then... All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in 1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that. Rewired the whole house with grounded romex. |
#53
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. |
#54
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 18:26:01 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. I am not sure how they are connected, but I seem to have plenty in the kitchen. Two on one counter, two on another, one behind the refrigerator that is for it only,one at the end of a bar that one end is at a wall, two more near floor level that could be used. Speaking of the Edison circuit reminds me of a problem at work. One receptical had power, but as soon as anything was pluged into it and turned on, the GFCI would trip. I finally found that whoever wired up the room had ran a neutral from another circuit to that receptical and that neutral to a different receptical that was paired with a different breaker. Will do it every time - - - |
#55
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 9:53:11 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. Is "split" a technical term in the code and what does it mean? If it's a shared neutral/Edison circuit, then why can't you support two 15a or two 20a loads, one on each half? |
#56
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... e Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s, they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition, which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized. I think that's pretty much what I had just said... I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That could have been pretty common back then... All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in 1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that. Rewired the whole house with grounded romex. Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though! Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the "little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall that the rest of the house was rewired then. Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in '14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was located in its third location in about 40 years... Reminiscing is interesting... -- |
#57
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a reasonable sized kitchen soaring. |
#58
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/6/2019 8:49 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:52:41 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/6/2019 10:47 AM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... e Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s, they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition, which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized. I think that's pretty much what I had just said... I was curious as to what style was on a 1940s appliance--I can't recall ever having any such until well after then...just curious as would have required here anyway to have replace the wall socket to use the device or use a polarized adapter because there weren't any polarized sockets at all until folks redid the house in the late 70s/early 80s. That could have been pretty common back then... All the outlets installed in out (at the time) 88 year old house in 1957-58 were polarized. It was rewired in 1957-58 - had only one outlet in the kitchen and one light in each room prior to that. Rewired the whole house with grounded romex. Still almost 20 yr too late for the 40s toaster, though! Progressive altho not totally remarkable for by then...reminds me of the "little house" in which I grew up (that was bought and moved to the farm when the Army Air Force base for training B-26 pilots was built as it was on that property west of town) was remodeled in early 50s...I'm sure the addition which included a new kitchen was 3-wire but don't recall that the rest of the house was rewired then. Both houses were re-wired in '47/'48 when the REA power reached us but that was done with 2-wire. Prior to that were on the 32VDC Delco windcharger system...but grandparents house was wired K&T when built in '14/'15 with an essentially modern layout of lights and outlets even back then. There's still a fair amount of the old cloth wiring abandoned in place...I don't know about the little house; when folks did the big house and moved over, it was sold and moved to town so it was located in its third location in about 40 years... Reminiscing is interesting... The house I lived in from 54 to 65 was a "GI Bill house" (built in 54) and at that time 3 wire Romex was required although they still used 1-15 (2 pin) receptacles. They were polarized but I don't remember actually seeing a polarized plug cap until the late 70s. I know for sure the "Hot Chassis" TVs and radios were not because the rule was if you got shocked, flip the plug over. |
#59
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
|
#61
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
|
#62
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a reasonable sized kitchen soaring. The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked 1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2 adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code. Looking at my 1966 code book I believe it is the last code that specifically called out specifications for knob and tube wiring, Grounding was required for all circuits, non-metallic sheathed cable, open wiring, or knob and tube in 1966. The kitchen requirements were the same in 1966 |
#63
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 14:19:14 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/7/2019 1:34 PM, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: ... Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a reasonable sized kitchen soaring. That just doesn't sound reasonable...something missing in the translation here, methinks... One outlet per 12 linear feet or part thereof of wall space for general applications and minimum one per workspace in kitchen according to both 1966 and 1969 codes for Ontario. (I have copy of both from my dad who was an electrician) |
#64
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/7/2019 3:15 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a reasonable sized kitchen soaring. The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked 1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2 adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code. .... It's been added to significantly since with no more than 24" to nearest horizontally and every section of countertop 12" or more wide has to have one irrespective. Plus a bunch of other lesser details... But nothing requires adjacent receptacles to be on different circuits; only again still the bare-bones minimum of 2 20-A small appliance circuits in counting small-appliance circuits. Major appliances have to have their own but that's independent of SA circuits. That still seems an unreasonable requirement...you sure you're reading that right? -- |
#65
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 07:13:18 -0500, dpb wrote:
Reminiscing is interesting... Yes. Reminds me of the only toast I had as a kid. It was from Grandma's Toast-o-Later. Hadn't thought about that toaster in many years. |
#66
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 15:29:38 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/7/2019 3:15 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 14:34:27 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 21:53:10 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:07:40 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:52:40 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:46:12 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 11:23:07 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. My house was built in 1990 and has GFCI on the outdoor receptacles and the bathroom receptacles - not on the kitchen. Ontario Canada My google searches could only find the USA NEC history not Canada John T. 1980 code in canada required 2 split 15 amp outlets in the kitchen (4 circuits) and GFCI outlets do NOT work on an edison circuit - must use double pole GFCI breakers. They were hellishly expensive so were not generally installed. Current Canadian code requires minimum of 2 separate 20 amp circuits in the kitchen WITH GFCI protection - either at the outlet or the breaker panel. Both of which are available at reasonable cost. GFCI receptacles work fine on multiwire (Edison) circuits as long as you use 2 of them. (One on each leg at the split in a quad box) You can't have too many receptacles in the kitchen anyway these days. I have exactly the scenario you are talking about in mine and all 4 have something plugged in all the time. I am ****ed I didn't do at least 3 duplexes or even 4. Canadian code required the outlets to be "split" in the kitchen. That's 2 circuits for each duplex outlet. Didn't matter how many you installed - if they were at a "countertop" they had to be split - impossible to plug in more than 1 15 amp device per circuit. You only had one receptacle per circuit? What was the counter spacing requirement? I can see the number of circuits required for a reasonable sized kitchen soaring. The minimum was 2 splits - 4 circuits. -- actually just checked 1969 code and it just specifies 2 circuits dedicated to countertop appliance receptacles - at least one in each working area - no 2 adjacent outlets connected to the same branch circuit. Grounded polarized plugs were specified in 1969 code. ... It's been added to significantly since with no more than 24" to nearest horizontally and every section of countertop 12" or more wide has to have one irrespective. Plus a bunch of other lesser details... But nothing requires adjacent receptacles to be on different circuits; only again still the bare-bones minimum of 2 20-A small appliance circuits in counting small-appliance circuits. Major appliances have to have their own but that's independent of SA circuits. That still seems an unreasonable requirement...you sure you're reading that right? Yup - read both 66 and 69. Has been changed now to requiring minimumof 2 countertop 20 amp circuits instead of 15 amp splits (30 amp capacity) Need more now too - don't have a current code book handy but your anything more than 12 inches sounds right. The 20 amp outlets are "dedicated circuits" but no longer split - still cannot have 2 on the same circuit adjacent (since only 1 duplex on a circuit) Microwave and fridge need to be on their own "dedicated" circuit as well. Getting to be pretty big panels - with kitchen sub-panels becoming pretty common. |
#67
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/2019 9:50 AM, badgolferman wrote:
wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. Sometimes I give the old lady a fork or a prong. |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Why aren't toasters grounded? | Home Repair | |||
Toasters | UK diy | |||
Toasters | UK diy | |||
Toasters | UK diy | |||
Why aren't all extension cords grounded if it's code that your outletbe grounded? | Home Repair |