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Why aren't toasters grounded?
You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world.
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 8:55:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. I guess that's how it's impossible to get electrocuted by sticking a metal fork in it, because otherwise seems it would be pretty easy.... |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 23:23:37 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. I bet that over half the houses in the US do not have a GFCI in the kitchen. The first apartment and the first house I lived in (not counting the one I grew up in) only had fuses in it, no breakers at all. My current house that was built around 1980 only has the GFCI on the bathroom and outside sockets. As another pointed out, toasters have been around many years before a gfci was even heard of, probably many years before even breakers were used in homes. I suppose there are plenty of cars without seat belts and they sell the **** out of cigarettes so it is clear that people don't want to live forever. GFCIs have been in the code since 75 or so tho. All that being said you don't really see the pile of bodies you should expect from 120 years or so of toasters so I guess they aren't that unsafe. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
wrote
You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). No it not if you hold say an earthed metal water pipe with the other hand. A little education goes a long way in today's world. You clearly didnt get enough. |
Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:58:10 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). No LOL He said it, again! A little education goes a long way in today's world. You clearly didn¢t get enough. YOU did get a website of your own though, you abysmally stupid senile trolling asshole: Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile cretin from Oz: https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/ -- Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot: "Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)" MID: |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 11:52:13 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. You're saying the case is wired to the neutral? That seems very dangerous because with a two prong plug if you plug it in backwards, now the case is hot without any fault in the toaster. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/2019 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 11:52:13 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. You're saying the case is wired to the neutral? That seems very dangerous because with a two prong plug if you plug it in backwards, now the case is hot without any fault in the toaster. You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. Bill |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
In Bill Gill writes:
[snip] You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. You really believe all outlets are properly wired, eh? -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/4/2019 10:52 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. Actually, I don't think this one even has a polarized plug...I'll have to look later; maybe it was replaced once without. But, I've never gotten 'bit' by the case and pay no attention when plugging in -- as another said, I presume they're built as "double insulated". Was a fad in hand power tools of that back in 60s-70s when hand drills, etc., etc., came w/ unpolarized two-prong plugs. Still have a couple of those from the era when JC Penney still had hardware and SWMBO was working there while we were still in uni so could get a deal. Old Mr Penney was still around then and pay envelope every week was made up of two-dollar bills and change; no checks JC!!! Still no credit cards at JC Penney, either, as long as he was around... -- |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 9:08:35 AM UTC-4, Bill Gill wrote:
On 8/5/2019 8:04 AM, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 11:52:13 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. You're saying the case is wired to the neutral? That seems very dangerous because with a two prong plug if you plug it in backwards, now the case is hot without any fault in the toaster. You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. Bill Well, if you're going to tie the case to neutral, then I'd say the plug and receptacle system needs to be far more robust to make it virtually impossible to plug in backwards or you're creating a bigger danger than you are solving. I say it's BS, that Clare is likely wrong, that toasters and similar do not have their cases wired to neutral. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 10:37:57 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. How something qualifies as double insulated when you can very easily stick a fork in it and touch the live heater wire, IDK. And not only that, but unlike say an electric drill, with a toaster there is a powerful motivation to do so, ie the toast is stuck in there. I just checked the old Sears toaster here that has a metal case. I read 6 volts between the case and the neutral, so obviously that case isn't connected to neutral. So, with that and your UL observation, looks like I was right. Given all the fuss with dryers and using the neutral as ground, didn't seem likely that toasters would be doing that. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:09:52 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote: In Bill Gill writes: [snip] You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. You really believe all outlets are properly wired, eh? Good way to clean the gene pool. Electrocute those too stupid to do it right or too cheap to have it done right? |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 08:12:57 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/4/2019 10:52 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. Actually, I don't think this one even has a polarized plug...I'll have to look later; maybe it was replaced once without. But, I've never gotten 'bit' by the case and pay no attention when plugging in -- as another said, I presume they're built as "double insulated". Most are - BUT - SOME are not - and they have polarized plugs. I would say a pretty good proportion inuse in N America have polarized plugs and are NOT double insulated. On SOME the switch is DPST - disconnecting both power and ground/neutral when shut off Was a fad in hand power tools of that back in 60s-70s when hand drills, etc., etc., came w/ unpolarized two-prong plugs. Still have a couple of those from the era when JC Penney still had hardware and SWMBO was working there while we were still in uni so could get a deal. Old Mr Penney was still around then and pay envelope every week was made up of two-dollar bills and change; no checks JC!!! Still no credit cards at JC Penney, either, as long as he was around... Many tools are STILL double insulated and non polarized |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 10:37:43 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. OK - mabee not "connected to" ground - but built in such a way that the neutral is the only conductor that COULD connect direct to the case in case of a normal failure |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
.... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. .... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... -- |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
wrote:
On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/19 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote:
[snip] You're saying the case is wired to the neutral?Â* That seems very dangerous because with a two prong plug if you plug it in backwards, now the case is hot without any fault in the toaster. You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. Bill I've used a bolt cutter to edit a few plugs (not a good idea to do this with a toaster), just with a few things that have polarized plugs for no good reason. -- "Is reading in the bathroom considered as multi-tasking?" |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
Clare Snyder writes:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:09:52 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote: In Bill Gill writes: [snip] You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. You really believe all outlets are properly wired, eh? Good way to clean the gene pool. Electrocute those too stupid to do it right or too cheap to have it done right? Or who are unforutnate enough that they can't afford a home and must rely on their slum^H^H^H^Hlandlord to provide a safe evironment? |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 10:37:57 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. How something qualifies as double insulated when you can very easily stick a fork in it and touch the live heater wire, IDK. And not only that, but unlike say an electric drill, with a toaster there is a powerful motivation to do so, ie the toast is stuck in there. I just checked the old Sears toaster here that has a metal case. I read 6 volts between the case and the neutral, so obviously that case isn't connected to neutral. So, with that and your UL observation, looks like I was right. Given all the fuss with dryers and using the neutral as ground, didn't seem likely that toasters would be doing that. It simply means there is an insulated assembly inside an insulated case. It has nothing to do with whether there is a hole big enough in the outer case to stick a conductive implement through. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 1:16:43 PM UTC-4, Sam E wrote:
On 8/5/19 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: [snip] You're saying the case is wired to the neutral?Â* That seems very dangerous because with a two prong plug if you plug it in backwards, now the case is hot without any fault in the toaster. You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. Bill I've used a bolt cutter to edit a few plugs (not a good idea to do this with a toaster), just with a few things that have polarized plugs for no good reason. -- "Is reading in the bathroom considered as multi-tasking?" To answer the actual question asked, I'd say that toasters don't have grounded plugs because historically before grounded receptacles went into effect, they did not and today manufacturers figure that they'd cut their sales by selling ones that did. There are still plenty of homes with two prong receptacles, even if it's only 5%, you;d cut your market. And new homes have GFCI so it's not an issue there. Caught in between are the kitchens with grounds that go unused, but no GFCI. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 12:07:35 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 08:12:57 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/4/2019 10:52 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. Actually, I don't think this one even has a polarized plug...I'll have to look later; maybe it was replaced once without. But, I've never gotten 'bit' by the case and pay no attention when plugging in -- as another said, I presume they're built as "double insulated". Most are - BUT - SOME are not - and they have polarized plugs. I would say a pretty good proportion inuse in N America have polarized plugs and are NOT double insulated. On SOME the switch is DPST - disconnecting both power and ground/neutral when shut off Was a fad in hand power tools of that back in 60s-70s when hand drills, etc., etc., came w/ unpolarized two-prong plugs. Still have a couple of those from the era when JC Penney still had hardware and SWMBO was working there while we were still in uni so could get a deal. Old Mr Penney was still around then and pay envelope every week was made up of two-dollar bills and change; no checks JC!!! Still no credit cards at JC Penney, either, as long as he was around... Many tools are STILL double insulated and non polarized To be legal now, a piece of equipment with a non polarized plug needs a 2 pole operating switch because you still need to switch the ungrounded conductor. If there is no switch, like a wall wart, this is not an issue. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 12:09:29 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 10:37:43 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. OK - mabee not "connected to" ground - but built in such a way that the neutral is the only conductor that COULD connect direct to the case in case of a normal failure Neither current carrying conductor should be capable of contacting the case unless you have a fault, then it is the luck of the draw. What they do regulate is which conductor is switched so if you stick your fork in there with the tray popped up, the element should be connected to the grounded conductor, not the hot one. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 2:49:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 10:37:57 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. How something qualifies as double insulated when you can very easily stick a fork in it and touch the live heater wire, IDK. And not only that, but unlike say an electric drill, with a toaster there is a powerful motivation to do so, ie the toast is stuck in there. I just checked the old Sears toaster here that has a metal case. I read 6 volts between the case and the neutral, so obviously that case isn't connected to neutral. So, with that and your UL observation, looks like I was right. Given all the fuss with dryers and using the neutral as ground, didn't seem likely that toasters would be doing that. It simply means there is an insulated assembly inside an insulated case. It has nothing to do with whether there is a hole big enough in the outer case to stick a conductive implement through. Well, then you'd think that having a gaping hole with live conductors exposed would be something that would fail UL just on that basis. Protecting against a possible fault someday to make sure a hot can't touch the case seems less likely a hazard to worry about compare to having a device with a gaping hole in it where the live heating coil is accessible, What's more likely? That fault occurring someday or someone sticking a fork in to get the toast out? And I;m not sure that I buy that it's even really double insulated when a knife stuck in the gaping hole creates a direct short regardless of all the other insulation. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 2:49:15 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Monday, August 5, 2019 at 10:37:57 AM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 23:52:09 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 20:55:26 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: You've never seen a toaster with a two prong cord? That's all they come with. Toasters don't require, or come with, a three prong plug because they're double insulated. Oh and it's impossible to get electrocuted by putting a mental object in the toaster( ie: metal fork). A little education goes a long way in today's world. Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. If NOT plugged into a GFCI you CAN get an awfull nasty shock if you stick a knife into a toaster when thebasket is down (toaster on) They have a POLARIZED plug co the case side is ALWAYS at ground potential if plugged into a "properly wired" outlet. They are double insulated, neither circuit conductor connects to the case. In fact U/L will not list anything that uses the neutral as an equipment ground. I understand "Hot Chassis" was common in old electronics in the 50s and before but that was made that unacceptable in the 60s. How something qualifies as double insulated when you can very easily stick a fork in it and touch the live heater wire, IDK. And not only that, but unlike say an electric drill, with a toaster there is a powerful motivation to do so, ie the toast is stuck in there. I just checked the old Sears toaster here that has a metal case. I read 6 volts between the case and the neutral, so obviously that case isn't connected to neutral. So, with that and your UL observation, looks like I was right. Given all the fuss with dryers and using the neutral as ground, didn't seem likely that toasters would be doing that. It simply means there is an insulated assembly inside an insulated case. It has nothing to do with whether there is a hole big enough in the outer case to stick a conductive implement through. Well, then you'd think that having a gaping hole with live conductors exposed would be something that would fail UL just on that basis. Protecting against a possible fault someday to make sure a hot can't touch the case seems less likely a hazard to worry about compare to having a device with a gaping hole in it where the live heating coil is accessible, What's more likely? That fault occurring someday or someone sticking a fork in to get the toast out? And I;m not sure that I buy that it's even really double insulated when a knife stuck in the gaping hole creates a direct short regardless of all the other insulation. The fact that we don't have a pile of bodies tends to say "don't stick a fork in the toaster" seems to be a lesson people learned. It is mostly just tradition that allows toasters in the first place. If someone invented it today it would never make it to market in it's present design I could say the same thing about the Edison lamp socket. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... -- |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 10:10:57 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. Fretwell can probably tell you when GFCI became required in kitchens, but I believe it was required in NEC at least by the latter part of the 80s and probably went into effect in the early part. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:10:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. The Keurig coffee machine and electric mixer are the only small appliances in te kitchen that do have a 3 prong plug. The other coffee pot (Mr. Coffee type),and microwave only have 2 prongs. A microwave with a 2 prong plug? It is either so new it is double insulated or it was never listed. The 45 year old one I have uses a 3 prong plug. I also wonder what NEC cycle your AHJ was using if a 1980 house does not have GFCI protected small appliance circuits. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 10:10:57 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. Fretwell can probably tell you when GFCI became required in kitchens, but I believe it was required in NEC at least by the latter part of the 80s and probably went into effect in the early part. Actually I was wrong about kitchens. It was required in Bathrooms and outside in 75 but did not get picked up in kitchens until 87. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:34:22 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 10:10:57 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... Toasters are expected to be plugged into a GFCI "small appliance circuit". There is a great amount of safety because of that. My house was made in 1967 and doesn't have GFCI circuit in the kitchen or a GFCI circuit breaker for the kitchen in the main panel. Having said that though, we use a toaster OVEN rather than a toaster for bread. It has three prongs. My house was built in the 1980's and does not have GFCI in the kitchen. We have a toster oven that only has a 2 prong plug. It was bought sometime in the last 10 years. Fretwell can probably tell you when GFCI became required in kitchens, but I believe it was required in NEC at least by the latter part of the 80s and probably went into effect in the early part. Actually I was wrong about kitchens. It was required in Bathrooms and outside in 75 but did not get picked up in kitchens until 87. Interesting. I had a condo back then that I bought new in late 1987 and I know it had GFCI in the kitchen, baths, garage. That's how I knew it was in effect by then. I figured it probably started a few years earlier, but looks like that was among the first where it was required. Good catch on the microwave, I missed that. I've never seen one that's not 3 prong. Let's see what Ralph has to say on that. |
Why aren't toasters grounded?
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Why aren't toasters grounded?
On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:26:38 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 8/5/2019 3:42 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019 11:18:22 -0500, dpb wrote: On 8/5/2019 8:08 AM, Bill Gill wrote: ... You'll have to work at plugging a 2 prong plug in backward. The prongs are 2 different widths, so the plug will only go in one way. ... That's also a (relatively) recent evolution in the history of the electric toaster... I had onwe from the late 40s with a polarized plug - so old it wasn't a "pop-up" Nothing prevented them from using the plug; was it the wide blade type like current? I'm not sure when the polarized receptacle actually was introduced but it wasn't until sometime in 60s it became required... Although polarized outlets and plugs were introduced in the 1880s, they were not popular at first and did not become standard until the mid-20th century. The earliest National Electric Code (NEC) that we can find that references polarized receptacles is the 1962 edition, which required outlets to be both grounding (3-prong) and polarized. |
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