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#1
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#2
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 11:31:50 AM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? Both should be at close to the same potential. Only the neutral should be carrying any current during normal operation. The ground is there to shunt a fault, ie a hot wire comes in contact with a metal case and to keep all the metal at close to earth potential. A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. If it's hot only when water is flowing, then it must be because for water to flow, the WM is powered on and activating the solenoid valves, not because of the water. Something is seriously screwed. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. You should point her to an electrician or someone who's qualified. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. Only if there is a metal pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. No, it doesn't have to be wired serially, in that order. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. I'd say close to zero, the neutral carries current, with substantial current you could see some voltage difference, but not a dangerous level. The rest is correct. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. Anything, including grounds are typically connected somewhere in between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. Yes, and it's connected to the transformer center-tap too, which is the most important part. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#3
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. A pretty accurate assessment Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? The neutral (GroundED) conductor will see voltage drop imposed on it that actually results in a higher voltage at the utilization site. The bonding (the proposed term for the groundING) conductor is tied directly to the earth via the grounding electrode system and in normal operation should see no voltage drop so the case of your equipment should be zero volts as compared to the concrete floor. The one flaw in your description is theoretically the earth has no affect on current flow. In reality that is not true, particularly with wye distribution of the medium voltage at the transformer but your local ground should still remain zero in reference to the grounding conductor. The path for neutral current should be the grounded conductor going back to the transformer. In your friend's case I would first insure that there is no load side panel (sub panel) involved and if so that the grounded and grounding conductors are isolated in that panel and that the bonding jumper was not installed. Also try unplugging the dryer, particularly if it is a 3 wire plug and the supplemental ground wire goes to the box the washer is connected to. If you eliminate that I would start looking at the grounding electrode system. If it is just the cold water pipe, are you sure it is solid metal all the way to the buried pipe outside and did that pipe transition to plastic as soon as it left the house. That is not unusual in any home built in the last 30-40 years. The NEC has required a supplemental electrode for at least that long. That can be a pair of 8' rods 6 feet apart connected by 6ga copper wire to the grounding bus in the service disconnect enclosure or the meter pan. Inspect the connections to those rods and the integrity of that grounding conductor. |
#4
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is even worse than plain water. Dangerous. Water and electricity is is a very bad combination. It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is. Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again. Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat. **I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running. when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the machine fixed. ONe valve on Amazon for many modesl of 285805 Clothes Washer Water Inlet Valve with Mounting Bracket for Whirlpool Kenmore Maytag GE Frigidaire Electrolux brands is only $13. Hers will probably be more but even if it's $60 it's progbably well worht it. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#5
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:56:39 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is even worse than plain water. Dangerous. Water and electricity is is a very bad combination. It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is. Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again. Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat. **I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running. when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the machine fixed. She doesn't need to know it, but someone qualified needs to figure out what's wrong, because it's a lot more than just the washing machine. That washing machine fault, assuming there is one, could have the metal cases of anything else on that circuit, maybe even in the whole house, energized. As could another fault, someplace else. The washing machine you can just unplug until it's fixed. The wiring problem, no one knows the extent of it at this point. |
#6
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#7
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real good if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system. There's an illustration he https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#8
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/28/19 11:44 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Â*Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real good if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* There's an illustration he https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting This one is a bit better: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dUIWgCvZ&id=4BC6F670DF37 A168AFF1C7C34BCCC4EE2FC41E8A&thid=OIP.dUIWgCvZFit3 kBa07xgd_AHaFj&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikeholt. com%2Fgraphics%2Ftouch.gif&exph=480&expw=640&q=Gro unding+Electrode+Requirements&simid=60800251866140 0842&selectedindex=55&ajaxhist=0&vt=0 Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#9
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot. The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that, like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth don't behave unpredictably. |
#10
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:54:47 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 11:44 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Â*Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real good if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system. Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* There's an illustration he https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting This one is a bit better: https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dUIWgCvZ&id=4BC6F670DF37 A168AFF1C7C34BCCC4EE2FC41E8A&thid=OIP.dUIWgCvZFit3 kBa07xgd_AHaFj&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikeholt. com%2Fgraphics%2Ftouch.gif&exph=480&expw=640&q=Gro unding+Electrode+Requirements&simid=60800251866140 0842&selectedindex=55&ajaxhist=0&vt=0 Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? What they are showing there, the guy getting shocked, is similar to what the washing machine lady has. It shows a guy touching the metal parts of an outdoor sign that does not have it's metal connected to the grounding conductor and a fault occurring, where the 120V hot touches the metal. Instead of having the metal bonded and connected to the grounding conductor, that sign instead used an illegal ground round and a really bad one at that. Like the washing machine, if the eqpt was properly connected to the required grounding conductor, the fault would have tripped the breaker if it was a direct short. And if it was a smaller short that did not trip the breaker, the case would still not be at a significant difference in potential from the metal appliance case next to it, a water pipe, etc. If that washing machine circuit was GFCI, it would have tripped on even a 5 ma current. This example shows why having them is a good idea. |
#11
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:16:27 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot. The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that, like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth don't behave unpredictably. Correct that first sentence to read what I meant to say: What's not right is that if the panel, to the washing machine and the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine can't be hot. |
#12
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:16:27 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot. The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that, like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth don't behave unpredictably. Correct that first sentence to read what I meant to say: What's not right is that if the panel, to the washing machine and the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine can't be hot. If there is a problem with the grounding electrode system "ground" on the case of the machine can be above the potential of the concrete floor |
#13
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them What kind of water hoses does she have. If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4 wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is an important step. If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running or not would make a difference. People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the testing again. when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. |
#14
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them What kind of water hoses does she have. If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4 wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is an important step. If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running or not would make a difference. People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the testing again. Again, there is a lot more wrong here than a fault in the washing machine water solenoid circuit, otherwise such a fault would never result in the metal case being hot. She should get someone qualified to figure out what's wrong, for obvious reasons. |
#15
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 3:30:24 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-4, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them What kind of water hoses does she have. If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4 wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is an important step. If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running or not would make a difference. People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the testing again. Again, there is a lot more wrong here than a fault in the washing machine water solenoid circuit, otherwise such a fault would never result in the metal case being hot. She should get someone qualified to figure out what's wrong, for obvious reasons. One simple thing she could do is to buy one of the testers that you plug into a receptacle and it has LEDs that show if hot, neutral and ground are there on the correct pins. That would determine if it's a washer with multiple problems or a washer and circuit problem. They are available at HD, online, hardware store, maybe Walmart. |
#16
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 01:56:29 -0400, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is even worse than plain water. Dangerous. Water and electricity is is a very bad combination. It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is. Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again. Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat. **I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running. when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the machine fixed. ONe valve on Amazon for many modesl of 285805 Clothes Washer Water Inlet Valve with Mounting Bracket for Whirlpool Kenmore Maytag GE Frigidaire Electrolux brands is only $13. Hers will probably be more but even if it's $60 it's progbably well worht it. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? Your analysis is correct. There are simple plug-in testers that will tell you if the ground is connected and if the "polarity" of the outlet is correct or backwards. They are widely available for under 10 bucks. From the description of the problem MY first step would be investigating the ground. I SUSPECT the "ground" is floating or "live" and you will measure a significant voltage between neutral and ground - and less than line voltage between the line (black) and ground. Combined with this there is SOMETHING in the house "injecting" power into the ground. This COULD be the washing machine but not likely or you would get a shock off of it when water not connected and flowing. With the washer disconnected test between the water pipe and neutral with the VOM. Bet you get a reading. Then shut off ALL breakers, (voltage SHOULD go away) and turn them back on untill you get the voltage back. Something on that circuit is defective. |
#17
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
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#19
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#20
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote: On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. DUH!! That's why code REQUIRES a contiguous safety ground, bonded to the neutral at the service panel. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. Which is why physical "safety grounds" are required. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#21
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:42:59 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. That would seem likely to be part of the lady's problem...... Not sure what you meant by your comment "something doesn't seem quite right". Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#22
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/28/19 7:53 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity I'm missing your point. What is it I don't get, specifically? Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. DUH!! That's why code REQUIRES a contiguous safety ground, bonded to the neutral at the service panel. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. Which is why physical "safety grounds" are required. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground? |
#23
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:58:16 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote: This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity I'm missing your point. What is it I don't get, specifically? If you mean ONLY a ground rod I might agree with you. This is why code EVERYWHERE requires a contiguous safety ground. True "ground return" systems have been eliminated in all but a very few rural electrification areas in the American Mid-west and Alberta - and some parts of the "outback" down under as of 2012. A short to ground WILL trip a breaker in any code compliant installation. The ground rod functions PRIMARILY as lightning protection, but is also a "local ground reference" tying the safety ground potential more closely to "earth ground" potential. The information on the spgsamerica.com site is incomplete and therefore inaccurate.. Look at www.electriciantalk.com where it states "Provides alternate, but limited, current path back to power company transformer when grounded conductor, between service panel and power company transformer, becomes severed. I've seen houses operate pretty normal under this condition until I unplugged everything, except for test loads, to exasperate the problem. " Interesting reading at https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/20...se-in-the-nec/ Also read https://www.thespruce.com/choosing-t...erials-1152287 Also read https://inspectapedia.com/electric/E...d_Required.php Also read https://electronics.stackexchange.co...e-a-ground-rod and https://www.ecmweb.com/content/bring...ing-down-earth |
#24
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote: On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. That is the function of the main bonding jumper in the service disconnect enclosure. It bonds the Equipment Grounding Conductor to the X0 in the transformer and provides that fault path to trip a breaker. For the last several cycles that receptacle the washer is plugged into will be GFCI protected if it is within 5' of the laundry tub. There are also AFCI requirements that will provide GFP level ground fault protection (30ma) in the laundry for the last 2 cycles. The code is there, it is only the field that has not caught up. |
#25
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. |
#26
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Connecting to a cold water pipe these days is as likely to energize the faucet as it is to actually bond anything. There is just too much plastic in plumbing to count on any pipe being grounded. |
#27
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing machine located?? |
#28
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing machine located?? I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was. Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?) |
#29
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
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#30
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:00:25 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing machine located?? Mostly in Micky's head, mostly. |
#31
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 11:50:26 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. We are supposed to believe that all the washing machines being sold are supposed to have an additional ground wire run over to a cold water pipe, that the install instructions tell you that, but no connection for it is provided by the manufacturers? WTF? Maybe that's how the lady screwed hers, she ran a drill through the case and into the wiring. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. And some people claim there are things in the instructions that are not there. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, That's for sure. You've made several posts now, but completely ignore the essence of the questions asked, which go to the fact that aside from some apparent fault in the washing machine, it is clearly not properly grounded. And no, that's not because of some missing wire from the washing machine to a water pipe. There is either a serious problem with the circuit wiring or with the cord being grounded to the washer metal case. but that's the way it should be. No, according to code for a very long time, AFAIK forever, it should not be. And if you did, it could extend the hot case of the washing machine to your faucets and bathtub. |
#33
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 10:58:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. I'm going to point her to this answer on the net. *Is this correct for ground?* o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green). o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe. o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground. o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere. o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero. *Is this correct for neutral?* o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box. o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire). o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between. o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks. o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input. o Generally that power company input will be a power pole. o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer. o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground. o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0 In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral carries current while the ground only carries current when something is wrong. This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return to its source through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and a tv running on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of different wattage will work on the same circuit. Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system. I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as you do NOT understand electricity Try the math here yourself. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground. Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance. There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker. I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta shorting to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer. Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps. I understand it doesn't really flow like water. That is the function of the main bonding jumper in the service disconnect enclosure. It bonds the Equipment Grounding Conductor to the X0 in the transformer and provides that fault path to trip a breaker. For the last several cycles that receptacle the washer is plugged into will be GFCI protected if it is within 5' of the laundry tub. There are also AFCI requirements that will provide GFP level ground fault protection (30ma) in the laundry for the last 2 cycles. The code is there, it is only the field that has not caught up. Just to clarify, there is something seriously wrong with either that circuit or with the cord not being grounded to the metal case. That has been covered in codes for fifty plus years, and make it impossible for the metal case to become hot, unless something is seriously wrong with the grounding. Those additional protections are in newer codes and older systems aren't required to be updated. |
#34
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 6:02:21 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing machine located?? I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was. Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?) Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from that time frame. AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe, where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe. He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that required anything beyond the cord and plug provided. It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to? Good grief. First you told the OP that it needed it, now you're asking if it's supposed to have it, after having been clearly told NO. Silly Democrat. |
#35
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe, where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe. He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that required anything beyond the cord and plug provided. Micky was referring to one f these ... https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/...machine-museum John T. |
#36
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? Using the correct terminology: * Grounded Conductor * Grounding Conductor The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits. The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are accidentally energized. |
#37
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/29/19 6:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 6:02:21 AM UTC-4, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder" wrote: From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US? A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot, which wends its way through the water heater.). This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget, because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people install washing machines without reading the directions. But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire is installed, but that's the way it should be. the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself. Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing machine located?? I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was. Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?) Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from that time frame. AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe, where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe. He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that required anything beyond the cord and plug provided. I do remember Whirlpool washers from around 1980 had a green ground wire attached to the cabinet and the other end was to be attached to an electrical ground. This was in addition to the 3-prong plug. Our 2018 Whirlpool horizontal axis machine does not have the additional green ground wire. |
#38
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
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#39
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
.... AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe, where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe. He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that required anything beyond the cord and plug provided. .... Au contraire, good buddy! "Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground. That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the majority of installed base. I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from the wall to confirm. -- |
#40
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What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote: ... AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe, where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe. He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that required anything beyond the cord and plug provided. ... Au contraire, good buddy! "Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground. That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the majority of installed base. Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947 for washing machines and similar wet locations. I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from the wall to confirm. -- That would be something, if it did. But even if it did, I bet there is nothing in the install instructions that tells you to ground it to a water pipe under any circumstances. |
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