What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 11:31:50 AM UTC-4, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

Both should be at close to the same potential. Only the neutral should
be carrying any current during normal operation. The ground is there to
shunt a fault, ie a hot wire comes in contact with a metal case and to
keep all the metal at close to earth potential.




A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

If it's hot only when water is flowing, then it must be because for water
to flow, the WM is powered on and activating the solenoid valves, not
because of the water. Something is seriously screwed.




I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

You should point her to an electrician or someone who's qualified.




*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.

Only if there is a metal pipe.




o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.

No, it doesn't have to be wired serially, in that order.


o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

I'd say close to zero, the neutral carries current, with substantial
current you could see some voltage difference, but not a dangerous level.

The rest is correct.


*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.

Anything, including grounds are typically connected somewhere in between.



o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.

Yes, and it's connected to the transformer center-tap too, which is the
most important part.

o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

A pretty accurate assessment


Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

The neutral (GroundED) conductor will see voltage drop imposed on it
that actually results in a higher voltage at the utilization site.
The bonding (the proposed term for the groundING) conductor is tied
directly to the earth via the grounding electrode system and in normal
operation should see no voltage drop so the case of your equipment
should be zero volts as compared to the concrete floor.

The one flaw in your description is theoretically the earth has no
affect on current flow. In reality that is not true, particularly with
wye distribution of the medium voltage at the transformer but your
local ground should still remain zero in reference to the grounding
conductor. The path for neutral current should be the grounded
conductor going back to the transformer.

In your friend's case I would first insure that there is no load side
panel (sub panel) involved and if so that the grounded and grounding
conductors are isolated in that panel and that the bonding jumper was
not installed. Also try unplugging the dryer, particularly if it is a
3 wire plug and the supplemental ground wire goes to the box the
washer is connected to.
If you eliminate that I would start looking at the grounding electrode
system. If it is just the cold water pipe, are you sure it is solid
metal all the way to the buried pipe outside and did that pipe
transition to plastic as soon as it left the house. That is not
unusual in any home built in the last 30-40 years. The NEC has
required a supplemental electrode for at least that long. That can be
a pair of 8' rods 6 feet apart connected by 6ga copper wire to the
grounding bus in the service disconnect enclosure or the meter pan.
Inspect the connections to those rods and the integrity of that
grounding conductor.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly
touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling
a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water
pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves
something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is
even worse than plain water. Dangerous.

Water and electricity is is a very bad combination.

It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing
machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water
valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is.

Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine
is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four
wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage
again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again.

Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat.

**I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running.


when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the
machine fixed.

ONe valve on Amazon for many modesl of 285805 Clothes Washer Water Inlet
Valve with Mounting Bracket for Whirlpool Kenmore Maytag GE Frigidaire
Electrolux brands is only $13. Hers will probably be more but even if
it's $60 it's progbably well worht it.




I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:56:39 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly
touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling
a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water
pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves
something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is
even worse than plain water. Dangerous.

Water and electricity is is a very bad combination.

It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing
machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water
valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is.

Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine
is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four
wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage
again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again.

Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat.

**I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running.


when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the
machine fixed.


She doesn't need to know it, but someone qualified needs to figure out
what's wrong, because it's a lot more than just the washing machine.
That washing machine fault, assuming there is one, could have the metal
cases of anything else on that circuit, maybe even in the whole house,
energized. As could another fault, someplace else. The washing machine
you can just unplug until it's fixed. The wiring problem, no one knows
the extent of it at this point.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.



Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall
outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the
ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be
close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral
eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real good
if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system.

There's an illustration he
https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting
Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/28/19 11:44 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall
outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only
when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I
tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between
ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water
pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the
ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be
close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral
eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to
return to its source
through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp
and a tv running
on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs
of different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Â*Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real
good
if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* There's an illustration he
https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting

This one is a bit better:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dUIWgCvZ&id=4BC6F670DF37 A168AFF1C7C34BCCC4EE2FC41E8A&thid=OIP.dUIWgCvZFit3 kBa07xgd_AHaFj&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikeholt. com%2Fgraphics%2Ftouch.gif&exph=480&expw=640&q=Gro unding+Electrode+Requirements&simid=60800251866140 0842&selectedindex=55&ajaxhist=0&vt=0

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.



What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the
washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine
can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming
into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the
breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot.
The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the
fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping
the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel
does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed
back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that,
like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides
a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth
don't behave unpredictably.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:54:47 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 11:44 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 11:09 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Â*From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall
outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only
when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I
tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between
ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water
pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the
ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between..
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground..
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be
close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral
eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* This doesn't look quite right to me.Â* Electricity tries to
return to its source
through all available routes, not to ground.Â*Â*Â* You can have a lamp
and a tv running
on the same circuit, for example.Â* Two lamps with incandescent bulbs
of different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Â*Â*Â* Ground rods are for lightning protection.Â* They won't do any real
good
if there isÂ* a short to ground somewhere in the system.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* There's an illustration he
https://www.ecmweb.com/code-basics/nec-rules-electric-signs-and-outline-lighting

This one is a bit better:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dUIWgCvZ&id=4BC6F670DF37 A168AFF1C7C34BCCC4EE2FC41E8A&thid=OIP.dUIWgCvZFit3 kBa07xgd_AHaFj&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikeholt. com%2Fgraphics%2Ftouch.gif&exph=480&expw=640&q=Gro unding+Electrode+Requirements&simid=60800251866140 0842&selectedindex=55&ajaxhist=0&vt=0

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?




What they are showing there, the guy getting shocked, is similar to what
the washing machine lady has. It shows a guy touching the metal parts
of an outdoor sign that does not have it's metal connected to the
grounding conductor and a fault occurring, where the 120V hot touches
the metal. Instead of having the metal bonded and connected to the
grounding conductor, that sign instead used an illegal ground round and
a really bad one at that. Like the washing machine, if the eqpt was
properly connected to the required grounding conductor, the fault would
have tripped the breaker if it was a direct short. And if it was a
smaller short that did not trip the breaker, the case
would still not be at a significant difference in potential from the
metal appliance case next to it, a water pipe, etc. If that
washing machine circuit was GFCI, it would have tripped on even a 5 ma
current. This example shows why having them is a good idea.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:16:27 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.



What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the
washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine
can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming
into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the
breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot.
The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the
fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping
the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel
does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed
back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that,
like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides
a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth
don't behave unpredictably.

Correct that first sentence to read what I meant to say:


What's not right is that if the panel, to the washing machine and
the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing
machine can't be hot.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:16:27 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.



What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the
washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine
can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming
into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the
breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot.
The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the
fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping
the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel
does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed
back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that,
like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides
a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth
don't behave unpredictably.

Correct that first sentence to read what I meant to say:


What's not right is that if the panel, to the washing machine and
the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing
machine can't be hot.

If there is a problem with the grounding electrode system "ground" on
the case of the machine can be above the potential of the concrete
floor

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:


From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

What kind of water hoses does she have.

If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that
the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the
water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is
in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the
other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4
wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is
an important step.

If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe
could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t
he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to
charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the
water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running
or not would make a difference.

People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the
testing again.

when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:


From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

What kind of water hoses does she have.

If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that
the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the
water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is
in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the
other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4
wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is
an important step.

If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe
could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t
he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to
charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the
water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running
or not would make a difference.

People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the
testing again.



Again, there is a lot more wrong here than a fault in the washing machine
water solenoid circuit, otherwise such a fault would never result in the
metal case being hot. She should get someone qualified to figure out
what's wrong, for obvious reasons.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 3:30:24 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 2:27:36 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:


From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

What kind of water hoses does she have.

If they are rubber only, no metal cladding, and if you are accurate that
the it's hot when the water is coming into the tub and not hot when the
water is no longer coming in, the problem, as unlikely as it seems, is
in the electric water valve inside the washing machine (just on the
other side of where the hoses connect). That's why disconnecting the 4
wires from the solenoids and then testing again, in my previous post, is
an important step.

If they are metal-clad, I can see how at the water pipes a metal pipe
could make electric contact with the metal end of the hose, and if at t
he washing machine end the fitting is metal, that would be enough to
charge the washing machine case, but if the charge is coming from the
water pipes, I find it very unlikely that whether the water is running
or not would make a difference.

People often misreport symptoms and test results. She needs to do the
testing again.



Again, there is a lot more wrong here than a fault in the washing machine
water solenoid circuit, otherwise such a fault would never result in the
metal case being hot. She should get someone qualified to figure out
what's wrong, for obvious reasons.

One simple thing she could do is to buy one of the testers that you plug
into a receptacle and it has LEDs that show if hot, neutral and ground
are there on the correct pins. That would determine if it's a washer
with multiple problems or a washer and circuit problem. They are available
at HD, online, hardware store, maybe Walmart.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 01:56:29 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them

So you've got a washing machine cabinet that she will almost certainly
touch that is hot with 110VAC, and you've got water too, maybe dribbling
a little where the hoses connect to the washing machine, or the water
pipes, and maybe even a little bit on the floor. Plus if she retrieves
something from the tub**, she'll have wet, soapy hands. Soapy water is
even worse than plain water. Dangerous.

Water and electricity is is a very bad combination.

It sounds like there is a short in the water valve. The washing
machines I know use a double valve, that is, the hot and cold water
valves are one piece. So you don't have to decide which half it is.

Measure the voltage at an unpainted part of the case, when the machine
is on and the water (hot AND cold) is filling it, disconnect the four
wires to the water valve, turn the machine on again, measure the voltage
again. If it's much less, replace the valve, and measure again.

Until she gets it fixed, have her go to the laundromat.

**I have a top loader so I can add and subtract while it's running.


when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

She doesn't need to know this right now. She needs now to get the
machine fixed.

ONe valve on Amazon for many modesl of 285805 Clothes Washer Water Inlet
Valve with Mounting Bracket for Whirlpool Kenmore Maytag GE Frigidaire
Electrolux brands is only $13. Hers will probably be more but even if
it's $60 it's progbably well worht it.




I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?
Your analysis is correct. There are simple plug-in testers that will
tell you if the ground is connected and if the "polarity" of the
outlet is correct or backwards. They are widely available for under 10
bucks. From the description of the problem MY first step would be
investigating the ground. I SUSPECT the "ground" is floating or "live"
and you will measure a significant voltage between neutral and ground
- and less than line voltage between the line (black) and ground.

Combined with this there is SOMETHING in the house "injecting" power
into the ground. This COULD be the washing machine but not likely or
you would get a shock off of it when water not connected and flowing.

With the washer disconnected test between the water pipe and neutral
with the VOM. Bet you get a reading. Then shut off ALL breakers,
(voltage SHOULD go away) and turn them back on untill you get the
voltage back. Something on that circuit is defective.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:14:49 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 1:16:27 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.



What's not right is that if the panel, the circuit to the house and the
washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing machine
can't be hot. A fault inside the washing machine, eg the hot coming
into contact with the case, would cause a short that would trip the
breaker. You could not have the case of the washing machine be hot.
The path of the current would be from the hot at the panel, through the
fault in the washing machine, back through the ground conductor, tripping
the breaker. Clearly that ground path from the case back to the panel
does not exist. This all would work even if the neutral was not earthed
back at the panel, which is a side issue. One prime purpose of that,
like you say, is to provide a path for lightning, but it also provides
a common reference point for the whole system, so that faults to earth
don't behave unpredictably.

Correct that first sentence to read what I meant to say:


What's not right is that if the panel, to the washing machine and
the washing machine are correctly wired, the metal case of the washing
machine can't be hot.

If there is a problem with the grounding electrode system "ground" on
the case of the machine can be above the potential of the concrete
floor
ANd the water pipe can be at 115 volts in relation to the neutral -
and the floor. There is SOMETHING wrong with the ground system.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.
Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.
Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.

DUH!! That's why code REQUIRES a contiguous safety ground, bonded to
the neutral at the service panel.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.

Which is why physical "safety grounds" are required.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:42:59 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.

That would seem likely to be part of the lady's problem...... Not sure what you meant by your comment "something doesn't seem quite right".


Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/28/19 7:53 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

I'm missing your point. What is it I don't get, specifically?

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.
Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.

DUH!! That's why code REQUIRES a contiguous safety ground, bonded to
the neutral at the service panel.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.

Which is why physical "safety grounds" are required.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.

Before I point the homeowner to this thread, can you clarify or fix
mistakes in my understanding of the difference between neutral & ground?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:58:16 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:



This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

I'm missing your point. What is it I don't get, specifically?

If you mean ONLY a ground rod I might agree with you. This is why code
EVERYWHERE requires a contiguous safety ground. True "ground return"
systems have been eliminated in all but a very few rural
electrification areas in the American Mid-west and Alberta - and some
parts of the "outback" down under as of 2012. A short to ground WILL
trip a breaker in any code compliant installation.

The ground rod functions PRIMARILY as lightning protection, but is
also a "local ground reference" tying the safety ground potential more
closely to "earth ground" potential.

The information on the spgsamerica.com site is incomplete and
therefore inaccurate.. Look at www.electriciantalk.com where it states
"Provides alternate, but limited, current path back to power company
transformer when grounded conductor, between service panel and power
company transformer, becomes severed. I've seen houses operate pretty
normal under this condition until I unplugged everything, except for
test loads, to exasperate the problem. "


Interesting reading at
https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/20...se-in-the-nec/

Also read
https://www.thespruce.com/choosing-t...erials-1152287

Also read
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/E...d_Required.php

Also read
https://electronics.stackexchange.co...e-a-ground-rod

and https://www.ecmweb.com/content/bring...ing-down-earth

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.
Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.



That is the function of the main bonding jumper in the service
disconnect enclosure. It bonds the Equipment Grounding Conductor to
the X0 in the transformer and provides that fault path to trip a
breaker. For the last several cycles that receptacle the washer is
plugged into will be GFCI protected if it is within 5' of the laundry
tub. There are also AFCI requirements that will provide GFP level
ground fault protection (30ma) in the laundry for the last 2 cycles.
The code is there, it is only the field that has not caught up.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

Connecting to a cold water pipe these days is as likely to energize
the faucet as it is to actually bond anything. There is just too much
plastic in plumbing to count on any pipe being grounded.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 12:00:25 AM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

Mostly in Micky's head, mostly.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 11:50:26 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one.

We are supposed to believe that all the washing machines being sold are
supposed to have an additional ground wire run over to a cold water
pipe, that the install instructions tell you that, but no connection
for it is provided by the manufacturers?
WTF? Maybe that's how the lady screwed hers, she ran a drill through
the case and into the wiring.




And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

And some people claim there are things in the instructions that are not there.





But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed,

That's for sure. You've made several posts now, but completely
ignore the essence of the questions asked, which go to the fact that aside
from some apparent fault in the washing machine, it is clearly not properly
grounded. And no, that's not because of some missing wire from the washing
machine to a water pipe. There is either a serious problem with the circuit
wiring or with the cord being grounded to the washer metal case.




but that's the way it should be.

No, according to code for a very long time, AFAIK forever, it should not be.
And if you did, it could extend the hot case of the washing machine to
your faucets and bathtub.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/29/19 6:02 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.

It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?


A good ground is kind of nice to have in case a hot lead somehow manages to come into contact with the washing machine cabinet.
Yah, I know, not very likely but...it's for the kids.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 10:58:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:42:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/28/19 6:01 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 11:09:54 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 7/27/19 10:31 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when
the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.

I'm going to point her to this answer on the net.

*Is this correct for ground?*
o It's the round hole in a 3-hole outlet
o It's usually a bare copper wire (or sometimes green).
o It's connected to the sub panel without any breaks whatsoever.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the main inlet cold water pipe.
o From that main cold water inlet pipe, it goes into a stake in the ground.
o It should never carry current unless there is a problem somewhere.
o Therefore, the voltage from it to the ground should be zero.

*Is this correct for neutral?*
o It's the taller slot in the typical grounded US outlet box.
o It's the white insulated wire (when black or red is the hot wire).
o It's connected to the sub panel but it may have connections between.
o From the sub panel it connects to the main panel sans any breaks.
o From the main panel it goes directly to the power company input.
o Generally that power company input will be a power pole.
o Within a few power poles will be the step-down transformer.
o From that step-down transformer the neutral will go into the ground.
o Therefore, the voltage from the outlet neutral to ground should be close to 0

In a way, they're similar in that both the ground and neutral eventually go
directly into the ground - but they're different in that the neutral
carries current while the ground only carries current when something is
wrong.

This doesn't look quite right to me. Electricity tries to return
to its source
through all available routes, not to ground. You can have a lamp and
a tv running
on the same circuit, for example. Two lamps with incandescent bulbs of
different wattage will work on the same circuit.
Ground rods are for lightning protection. They won't do any real good
if there is a short to ground somewhere in the system.




I hope you hire an electrician when you have electrical problems, as
you do NOT understand electricity

Try the math here yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Pretend there is a short to the frame of some electrical device and
there are only the ground rods and the dirt to conduct electricity back
to the power company's transformers. No equipment ground.
Put the ground rods in series and each at 25 ohms resistance.
There won't be enough current flow to trip a typical breaker.
I fix irrigation systems. Even the high leg of a center tap delta
shorting
to a system's frame would be about 8 amps flowing back to the transformer.
Fusing is usually at least 15 or twenty amps.
I understand it doesn't really flow like water.



That is the function of the main bonding jumper in the service
disconnect enclosure. It bonds the Equipment Grounding Conductor to
the X0 in the transformer and provides that fault path to trip a
breaker. For the last several cycles that receptacle the washer is
plugged into will be GFCI protected if it is within 5' of the laundry
tub. There are also AFCI requirements that will provide GFP level
ground fault protection (30ma) in the laundry for the last 2 cycles.
The code is there, it is only the field that has not caught up.

Just to clarify, there is something seriously wrong with either that
circuit or with the cord not being grounded to the metal case. That
has been covered in codes for fifty plus years, and make it impossible
for the metal case to become hot, unless something is seriously wrong
with the grounding. Those additional protections are in newer codes
and older systems aren't required to be updated.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 6:02:21 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.


AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.






It suddenly occurs to me that my own machine has no separate ground
wire, and didn't when I moved in. Is it supposed to?

Good grief. First you told the OP that it needed it, now you're asking if
it's supposed to have it, after having been clearly told NO.
Silly Democrat.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).
This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.
But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.



AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.




Micky was referring to one f these ...

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/...machine-museum

John T.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

"Arlen G. Holder" writes:
From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?


Using the correct terminology:

* Grounded Conductor
* Grounding Conductor

The former is bonded to ground at the service entrance (or pole pig) and provides
the so-called "neutral" conductor for the two current carrying conductors
in a normal 240VAC north american residential supply on 120VAC circuits.

The latter is a dedicated conductor connected to a grounding electrode
at the service entrance and provides an emergency safety path. Typically
metal parts of an appliance are bonded to the grounding conductor to
prevent people from becoming the ground path if the metal parts are
accidentally energized.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/29/19 6:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 6:02:21 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 02:17:22 -0400,
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:22 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jul 2019 23:50:11 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:31:46 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G.
Holder" wrote:

From the US homeowner's perspective of working backward from a wall outlet
o What is the difference between ground and neutral in the US?

A friend is debugging why the washing machine metal case is hot only when

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one. And lots of people
install washing machines without reading the directions.

But I'd make sure it's there and I'd put it on if it's not. I don't
know what happens when there is already a problem and the missing wire
is installed, but that's the way it should be.


the water pipes are hooked up and water flowing through them when I tried
to explain to that homeowner over the phone the difference between ground
and neutral - where - I'm not sure I have it all figured out myself.
Not true in North Ameica - where is this throretical washing
machine located??

I didn't want to argue with Micky but that is usually the dryer and it
was a way around that 3 wire plug, as border line illegal as it was.
Typically you attached the green wire to the center screw in the
washer receptacle cover. The NEC has not talked about grounding to
cold water pipes since we were wearing tie dyed T shirts and bell
bottoms. (72 code? Maybe 75?)

Sorry about that. I guess I was thinking about a washing machine from
that time frame.


AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.




I do remember Whirlpool washers from around 1980 had a green ground wire attached to the cabinet and the other end was to be attached to an
electrical ground. This was in addition to the 3-prong plug.

Our 2018 Whirlpool horizontal axis machine does not have the additional green ground wire.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from the perspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

In article ,
says...

BTW, there is suppposed to be a separate wire from a cabinet screw in
the washing machine metal case to a ground, often clamped onto a cold
water pipe (assuming they aren't plastic. It has to be cold, not hot,
which wends its way through the water heater.).

This seems to me like the part of installation easiest to forget,
because there is no jack for that wire in the machine and no wire
dangling from the machine until you attach one.

We are supposed to believe that all the washing machines being sold are
supposed to have an additional ground wire run over to a cold water
pipe, that the install instructions tell you that, but no connection
for it is provided by the manufacturers?
WTF? Maybe that's how the lady screwed hers, she ran a drill through
the case and into the wiring.




I bought a new washing machine about a month ago. Looking over the
instructions it mentions the machine is to be grounded . That is by the
3 prong power plug. There is no mention of a seperate ground wire. In
machines of the past there is usually a mention of a ground and maybe
even a clamp of sorts for the cold water pipe. As many homes now have
plastic pipe, it will do no good to put a ground wire to the pipe.

There is one minor mention of a code or permit for grounding. It simply
states to check with a qualified electrician if you are not sure the
washer is properly grounded.

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
....

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the
connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from
the wall to confirm.

--

What is the difference between ground and neutral from theperspective of the wall outlet working backward to the power company?
 

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/29/2019 5:42 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...

AFAIK, there never was a washing machine of that timeframe or any timeframe,
where they told you to run a separate wire between a non-existent
ground terminal in the washing machine and a cold water pipe.
He's telling you the NEC hasn't talked about grounding anything to cold
water pipes for a long time. I've never seen any washing machine that
required anything beyond the cord and plug provided.
...

Au contraire, good buddy!

"Way back when" they all had an external ground connection supplied with
vendor instructions to attach to electrical ground.

That began when there was 2-wire service and continued well past NEC
changes requiring 3-wire as the existing base of existing was the
majority of installed base.

Looks like code required three prong, grounded receptacles starting in 1947
for washing machines and similar wet locations.



I'm pretty sure the GE bought just a few years ago still has the
connecting point supplied with it but I'd have to go pull it out from
the wall to confirm.

--

That would be something, if it did. But even if it did, I bet there
is nothing in the install instructions that tells you to ground it to
a water pipe under any circumstances.