[Arlen Holder]

On 2 Aug 2018 18:56:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

They are not even allowed to sell you a used converter - at least not
here.

This is California, so, if there's anywhere on earth that you're not
allowed to do something, it's gonna be in California for sure.

So that knocks out a used exhaust manifold from the equation.

BTW, I think I figured out WHY the ham-fisted person cross-threaded the old
oxygen sensor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8804034o2sensor16.jpg

The radiator upper hose is in the way of a straight shot, so I gently
removed the upper radiator hose (which was rather loose with a hose clamp).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1535153o2sensor17.jpg

Then I was able to get a perfectly straight shot on the thread chaser:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3835665o2sensor18.jpg

[Arlen Holder]

On 2 Aug 2018 21:40:53 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

Cast iron went away for most cars a long time ago due to weight savings
needed to comply with gov't mandated fuel mileage requirements.
Take a look at the top pic on the carid.com url. That manifold is cast iron.
Notice how there are no welds. The pipe and the flange is one molded piece

This does seem to have welds, so, it must be steel then, is that right?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg

[Arlen Holder]

On 2 Aug 2018 13:48:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

First step is clean out the existing threads - do NOT use a form-a
thread type product - needs to withstand high temperature AND be
electrically conductive. (some sensors don't need the ground, but many
do)

Hi Clare,
You've always been right, over the years, on everything!

I will always strive to take your advice, as you have the experience I
lack.

I did clean out the threads late this afternoon just before nightfall:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5932805o2sensor28.jpg

After removing the upper radiator hose to get a straight shot and hand
threading the oxygen sensor thread chaser a few times up and down into the
hole, I hand tightened the new oxygen sensor (which came with a crush
gasket like spark plugs do) into the threaded bung.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2591539o2sensor22.jpg

When it met a slight resistance, I used the crows foot, still by hand:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3871206o2sensor23.jpg

Then, when it bottomed, I gently applied leverage ever so slightly:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8431124o2sensor25.jpg

I figured it would be better loose than too tight, as I didn't want to risk
the threads, but I did snug it down with, oh, about 20 foot pounds in the
last 1/8 turn or so.

Then I transferred the old metal bracket to the new oxygen sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1531967o2sensor24.jpg

And I buttoned back up the heat shield & routed the oxygen sensor wiring:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4853481o2sensor26.jpg

[Arlen Holder]

On 2 Aug 2018 13:34:28 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The tap required to chase out the thread will be metric - usually an
18mm spark plug tap. (or thread chaser)

Hi Clare,
I had the teen run a short test (the car isn't street insured and the kid
doesn't yet have his license so I had the kid test it on a bunch of private
roads at 10 mph (if that) where it's legal to drive at least on private
property - where all the neighbors have been prior warned).

There was some smoke around the exhaust manifold where we were working, and
the car stalled a few times when it just about warmed up (so I presume the
choke went off), but I am hoping that the mist of oily smoke is just the
oil that got on the manifold when we removed the old lambda sensor.

Of course, the amber "Service Engine Soon" light was lit the whole time:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2780083o2sensor27.jpg

I cleared the SES light such that the SRS is the only remaining warning:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7936105radiator_12.jpg

There are a few other anomalies I noticed, but the main question is how to
test if the oxygen sensor is in tight enough.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 05:47:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 2 Aug 2018 16:33:44 GMT, Terry Coombs wrote:

I bought
another from O'Reilly Auto Parts because this one was "lost" in the move
when I left Memphis for rural Arkansas .*

Thanks for that advice based on your experience, since I have zero
experience with these things.

I saw that kit at O'Reilly's which I photographed on their counter.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6043628o2sensor11.jpg

The sort of good news is that the thread chaser bottomed out entirely by
hand, without any strength required whatsoever, but the sort of bad news is
that it didn't clean up much as a result:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3885168o2sensor19.jpg

Still, at least that "jb weld" or "epoxy" or whatever it was, seems to be
cleaned out.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6998492o2sensor20.jpg

The thread chaser really didn't clean up the threads as much as it pushed
out the jb-weld-expoxy-whatever stuff from the valleys.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6373378o2sensor21.jpg


What did you want it to do? A "thread chaser" is supposed to clean
foreign material out of the thread. If the threads are not badly
deformed, it will NOT remove metal.

You now have a pretty fail percentage of a thread - - -

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 05:47:24 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 2 Aug 2018 21:40:53 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

Cast iron went away for most cars a long time ago due to weight savings
needed to comply with gov't mandated fuel mileage requirements.
Take a look at the top pic on the carid.com url. That manifold is cast iron.
Notice how there are no welds. The pipe and the flange is one molded piece

This does seem to have welds, so, it must be steel then, is that right?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg
Thanks for reposting. Yes, it is a fabricated manifold. What metal
it is is hard to say - likely a high nickelteel - similar to
Stainless.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 06:21:34 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 2 Aug 2018 13:34:28 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The tap required to chase out the thread will be metric - usually an
18mm spark plug tap. (or thread chaser)

Hi Clare,
I had the teen run a short test (the car isn't street insured and the kid
doesn't yet have his license so I had the kid test it on a bunch of private
roads at 10 mph (if that) where it's legal to drive at least on private
property - where all the neighbors have been prior warned).

There was some smoke around the exhaust manifold where we were working, and
the car stalled a few times when it just about warmed up (so I presume the
choke went off), but I am hoping that the mist of oily smoke is just the
oil that got on the manifold when we removed the old lambda sensor.

Of course, the amber "Service Engine Soon" light was lit the whole time:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2780083o2sensor27.jpg

I cleared the SES light such that the SRS is the only remaining warning:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7936105radiator_12.jpg

There are a few other anomalies I noticed, but the main question is how to
test if the oxygen sensor is in tight enough.


First of all - it has NO CHOKE. The computer may have to "relearn"
with the new sensor. Any finger prionts or penetrating oil etc on the
manifold will make it smoke. Let it cool down and start it again. If
it smokes a lot less, or not al all, you are good.

As for "tight enough" - if you could get 120 foot lbs out of it it's
tight enough. Only takes about 10 to squash the washer.

I believe the torque spec is 33 ft lbs on a Mitsu.
Many others are spec'd as finger tight (no movement) plus 1/4 turn -
about 18-25 ft lbs.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 18:03:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg
Thanks for reposting. Yes, it is a fabricated manifold. What metal
it is is hard to say - likely a high nickelteel - similar to
Stainless.

Thanks Clare for your always wise and wonderful advice.

I have a friend with welding equipment lined up if I need to drill it out
to insert a bung and have it tack welded in place.

At the moment, I'm sticking with the simple plan of...
1. Hope the thread chaser worked (how would I know if it didn't work?)
2. If needed, try the M20x1.5 tap to add a M18x1.5 insert
3. If really needed, drill it out to have a bung tack welded in place

I think, as you astutely predicted early on, that #1 will suffice.

My main mental dilemma is only how to tell if gases are leaking past the
lambda sensor threads under pressure.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 18:00:56 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

What did you want it to do? A "thread chaser" is supposed to clean
foreign material out of the thread. If the threads are not badly
deformed, it will NOT remove metal.

You now have a pretty fail percentage of a thread - - -

Thanks Clare.

To answer your question of "what did you think was gonna happen?", I pretty
much was hoping it would "feel" like I was tapping new threads, as I've
tapped things before.

But it just felt loose.

Still, it tightened the last 1/8th of a turn, so, if that's enough of a
"bite", then I'm happy.

I don't know how to *test* if the lambda sensor is leaking, but there's no
sound coming out of it (of course, the engine is loud so the sound would
have to be huge like it was when we moved the car a bit with the sensor
out).

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 18:12:20 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

First of all - it has NO CHOKE. The computer may have to "relearn"
with the new sensor. Any finger prionts or penetrating oil etc on the
manifold will make it smoke. Let it cool down and start it again. If
it smokes a lot less, or not al all, you are good.

Thanks for that choke advice. It must have "some" mechanism of increasing
the fuel-to-air to achieve the 14:1 stoichemotry when cold, so that's kind
of sort of what I meant by choke.

Basically, it stalls at low speed (which is all we've been able to do)
whenever it's transitioning from warm on the gauge (about 10 minutes or so
of low-speed driving). It did this *before* the oxygen sensor, so it's
unrelated to the sensor.

The OBDII tester gives us a 800 rpm reading at idle. Dunno how to increase
the idle speed yet, as this car isn't mine (mine is a bimmer which is a
drive by wire mechanism).

As for "tight enough" - if you could get 120 foot lbs out of it it's
tight enough. Only takes about 10 to squash the washer.

Thanks for that advice Clare, where you have always been spot on in
accuracy. I'm gonna assume it's tight enough since I did get a good last
1/8th of a turn on it with a wrench, and where I can't think of how else to
test it other than to see if the cleared codes come back under 10mph
driving (which is all we can do at this time).

I believe the torque spec is 33 ft lbs on a Mitsu.
Many others are spec'd as finger tight (no movement) plus 1/4 turn -
about 18-25 ft lbs.

If that's the case, then I think the torque is fine.

The funny thing is I wonder why the mechanic who screwed it up didn't just
do what I just did. What did he gain by jb welding it (or whatever that
gray hard metal-like paste was)?

[Scott Dorsey]

Arlen Holder wrote:
Basically, it stalls at low speed (which is all we've been able to do)
whenever it's transitioning from warm on the gauge (about 10 minutes or so
of low-speed driving). It did this *before* the oxygen sensor, so it's
unrelated to the sensor.

Right. The error message you got about the sensor was ALSO unrelated to
the sensor. The error message says the output of the sensor is out of
range. It's out of range because the engine is running way too rich
or way too lean.

The OBDII tester gives us a 800 rpm reading at idle. Dunno how to increase
the idle speed yet, as this car isn't mine (mine is a bimmer which is a
drive by wire mechanism).

You don't. You find the vacuum leak or the bad idle control valve or
whatever it is that is causing the mixture to be all wrong, and then
your idle speed will stabilize and you will be able to accelerate again.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 01:19:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 3 Aug 2018 18:03:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg
Thanks for reposting. Yes, it is a fabricated manifold. What metal
it is is hard to say - likely a high nickelteel - similar to
Stainless.

Thanks Clare for your always wise and wonderful advice.

I have a friend with welding equipment lined up if I need to drill it out
to insert a bung and have it tack welded in place.

At the moment, I'm sticking with the simple plan of...
1. Hope the thread chaser worked (how would I know if it didn't work?)
2. If needed, try the M20x1.5 tap to add a M18x1.5 insert
3. If really needed, drill it out to have a bung tack welded in place

I think, as you astutely predicted early on, that #1 will suffice.

My main mental dilemma is only how to tell if gases are leaking past the
lambda sensor threads under pressure.
What pressure??

If the cats are good your exhaust pressure should never excede about
2.5 psi, at any speed or load.

Take a piece of vac hose or fuel line - stick one end in your ear
and the other down by the sensor.If it's leaking YOU WILL KNOW!!!!

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 01:26:35 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 3 Aug 2018 18:12:20 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

First of all - it has NO CHOKE. The computer may have to "relearn"
with the new sensor. Any finger prionts or penetrating oil etc on the
manifold will make it smoke. Let it cool down and start it again. If
it smokes a lot less, or not al all, you are good.

Thanks for that choke advice. It must have "some" mechanism of increasing
the fuel-to-air to achieve the 14:1 stoichemotry when cold, so that's kind
of sort of what I meant by choke.

Basically, it stalls at low speed (which is all we've been able to do)
whenever it's transitioning from warm on the gauge (about 10 minutes or so
of low-speed driving). It did this *before* the oxygen sensor, so it's
unrelated to the sensor.

The OBDII tester gives us a 800 rpm reading at idle. Dunno how to increase
the idle speed yet, as this car isn't mine (mine is a bimmer which is a
drive by wire mechanism).

As for "tight enough" - if you could get 120 foot lbs out of it it's
tight enough. Only takes about 10 to squash the washer.

Thanks for that advice Clare, where you have always been spot on in
accuracy. I'm gonna assume it's tight enough since I did get a good last
1/8th of a turn on it with a wrench, and where I can't think of how else to
test it other than to see if the cleared codes come back under 10mph
driving (which is all we can do at this time).

I believe the torque spec is 33 ft lbs on a Mitsu.
Many others are spec'd as finger tight (no movement) plus 1/4 turn -
about 18-25 ft lbs.

If that's the case, then I think the torque is fine.

The funny thing is I wonder why the mechanic who screwed it up didn't just
do what I just did. What did he gain by jb welding it (or whatever that
gray hard metal-like paste was)?
He didn't have to replace the sensor he screwed up.
He "salvaged" it and didn't have to tell the customer he screwed up -
or it was A DIY job and he figured he wasn't going to spend money on
"another ****ty sensor" that likely wouldn't fit either - - - - - -

Always blame the part - don't take the blame for your mistakes - - -

[Clare Snyder]

On 3 Aug 2018 21:52:56 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Arlen Holder wrote:
Basically, it stalls at low speed (which is all we've been able to do)
whenever it's transitioning from warm on the gauge (about 10 minutes or so
of low-speed driving). It did this *before* the oxygen sensor, so it's
unrelated to the sensor.
Or mabee it's not - - -

Right. The error message you got about the sensor was ALSO unrelated to
the sensor. The error message says the output of the sensor is out of
range. It's out of range because the engine is running way too rich
or way too lean.

Or the sensor is bad - or the ground return (if used) is bad - a
hundred and one things can turn on the CEL - and that code

What code was it displaying?????

The OBDII tester gives us a 800 rpm reading at idle. Dunno how to increase
the idle speed yet, as this car isn't mine (mine is a bimmer which is a
drive by wire mechanism).

You don't. You find the vacuum leak or the bad idle control valve or
whatever it is that is causing the mixture to be all wrong, and then
your idle speed will stabilize and you will be able to accelerate again.
--scott


That is possible - definitely check for leaks - but now at least he
knows if the light comes on again he DOES have a problem. The sensor
definitely needed to be fixed, either way.

800 RPM hot idle does not necessarily sound like a problem - and a
bad sensor cannot get the computer to adjust the mixture properly.

Need to check the block learn readings etc to know for sure , but too
rich or too lean should give rich or lean codes, not out of range
codes. Out of range means voltage higher or lower than normal
operating range, and generally static - not clocking. Too lean means
violtage higher than optimum - too rich means voltage too low .

Too lean would generally be a P0171, or P0174.
Too rich would be P0172 or P0175.

A bad sensor would generallly be a P0130 to P0170 - but other problems
can cause these codes as well.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 19:38:54 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

He didn't have to replace the sensor he screwed up.
He "salvaged" it and didn't have to tell the customer he screwed up -
or it was A DIY job and he figured he wasn't going to spend money on
"another ****ty sensor" that likely wouldn't fit either - - - - - -

Always blame the part - don't take the blame for your mistakes - - -

That makes sense (from his standpoint).

The old sensor didn't look at that old, so, maybe it was his attempt to fix
the code. Dunno.

I just think it was a crappy job that I'd be embarrassed to do if it were
me.

I'm glad you pointed to the chaser - as - I think - it did the trick (cross
my fingers).

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 19:55:41 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

That is possible - definitely check for leaks - but now at least he
knows if the light comes on again he DOES have a problem. The sensor
definitely needed to be fixed, either way.

Unfortunately I don't remember the code. But it was related to the oxygen
sensor, but I should have written it down. P0133 perhaps? I don't remember
though. So I apologize not to be able to provide that fact to you.

The good news is that a new code, if it pops up, will tell me something
since the sensor is new (and they don't last forever).

800 RPM hot idle does not necessarily sound like a problem - and a
bad sensor cannot get the computer to adjust the mixture properly.

I agree. The 800 is fine as an idle speed. But it does stall. So, there's
something wrong when it transitions from cold to warm. Dunno what yet. A
cost-effective smoke machine is something I've always wanted ...

(I built one, but it sucks.)

Need to check the block learn readings etc to know for sure , but too
rich or too lean should give rich or lean codes, not out of range
codes. Out of range means voltage higher or lower than normal
operating range, and generally static - not clocking. Too lean means
violtage higher than optimum - too rich means voltage too low .

As I recall, there were no misfire codes and no lean condition codes.
Just the O2 code (might have been a cat code, I wish I remembered it.)

Too lean would generally be a P0171, or P0174.
Too rich would be P0172 or P0175.

Yup. None of those. Since I own a bimmer that is almost two decades old, I
know all about lean condition codes.

This code was cat or sensor specific. But let's see if it comes back.


A bad sensor would generallly be a P0130 to P0170 - but other problems
can cause these codes as well.

Yup. Chasing codes is always fun. Not.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 18:52:56 GMT, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Right. The error message you got about the sensor was ALSO unrelated to
the sensor. The error message says the output of the sensor is out of
range. It's out of range because the engine is running way too rich
or way too lean.

Understood. The error is just an error in the input, output, or power of
the sensor.

The OBDII tester gives us a 800 rpm reading at idle. Dunno how to increase
the idle speed yet, as this car isn't mine (mine is a bimmer which is a
drive by wire mechanism).

You don't. You find the vacuum leak or the bad idle control valve or
whatever it is that is causing the mixture to be all wrong, and then
your idle speed will stabilize and you will be able to accelerate again.

Always wanted to buy a good smoke tester at a good price that a home
mechanic can make an argument for on cost/benefit analysis.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 19:34:47 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

What pressure??

Well, something is pushing the exhaust out the tailpipe.
But I get your point that it's likely in the low psi range.

If the cats are good your exhaust pressure should never excede about
2.5 psi, at any speed or load.

OK. Well, at 2.5 psi, that oxygen sensor is just fine with respect to
leakage then, since the last 1/8th of a turn was tight.

Take a piece of vac hose or fuel line - stick one end in your ear
and the other down by the sensor.If it's leaking YOU WILL KNOW!!!!

I have a mechanics' stethescope. I still can't hear all that well (too many
explosions in my early days).

[trader_4]

On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 11:40:50 PM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 19:55:41 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

That is possible - definitely check for leaks - but now at least he
knows if the light comes on again he DOES have a problem. The sensor
definitely needed to be fixed, either way.

Unfortunately I don't remember the code. But it was related to the oxygen
sensor, but I should have written it down. P0133 perhaps? I don't remember
though. So I apologize not to be able to provide that fact to you.

There is also a code for the O2 sensor heater. That's the common failure on the BMW here. They don't work unless they are hot, so to get it working faster with a cold engine the sensors have heaters.






The good news is that a new code, if it pops up, will tell me something
since the sensor is new (and they don't last forever).

800 RPM hot idle does not necessarily sound like a problem - and a
bad sensor cannot get the computer to adjust the mixture properly.

I agree. The 800 is fine as an idle speed. But it does stall. So, there's
something wrong when it transitions from cold to warm. Dunno what yet. A
cost-effective smoke machine is something I've always wanted ...

(I built one, but it sucks.)

I've seen stories of people using disco smoke machines that you can buy on ebay.





Need to check the block learn readings etc to know for sure , but too
rich or too lean should give rich or lean codes, not out of range
codes. Out of range means voltage higher or lower than normal
operating range, and generally static - not clocking. Too lean means
violtage higher than optimum - too rich means voltage too low .

As I recall, there were no misfire codes and no lean condition codes.
Just the O2 code (might have been a cat code, I wish I remembered it.)

Maybe it will be back soon. How old did that previous sensor look? Possible that there is another problem and it's not the sensor,so some hack changed it recently. Did anyone check out this car before buying it to make sure it wasn't a lost cause?



Too lean would generally be a P0171, or P0174.
Too rich would be P0172 or P0175.

Yup. None of those. Since I own a bimmer that is almost two decades old, I
know all about lean condition codes.

This code was cat or sensor specific. But let's see if it comes back.


A bad sensor would generallly be a P0130 to P0170 - but other problems
can cause these codes as well.

Yup. Chasing codes is always fun. Not.

[Paul in Houston TX[_2_]]

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 18:03:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg
Thanks for reposting. Yes, it is a fabricated manifold. What metal
it is is hard to say - likely a high nickelteel - similar to
Stainless.

Thanks Clare for your always wise and wonderful advice.

I have a friend with welding equipment lined up if I need to drill it out
to insert a bung and have it tack welded in place.

At the moment, I'm sticking with the simple plan of...
1. Hope the thread chaser worked (how would I know if it didn't work?)
2. If needed, try the M20x1.5 tap to add a M18x1.5 insert
3. If really needed, drill it out to have a bung tack welded in place

I think, as you astutely predicted early on, that #1 will suffice.

My main mental dilemma is only how to tell if gases are leaking past the
lambda sensor threads under pressure.

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

[Arlen Holder]

On 3 Aug 2018 23:27:26 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

Thanks for that advice on the high temp sealer.
Someone said that the threads are the ground for the electrical connection.

We will leave it for now (it's parked in my driveway but it's not my car).
I'll have the kid drive it on private roads until we can get the registers
to set (we might not get them all to set if they need highway speeds).

The most critical thing is to get it smogged.

I'm gonna start working on the other issues now (for example, the SRS light
is lit so I'm gonna have to figure out how to reset that first).

Thanks everyone for all the help on the stripped threads!
You guys give me the confidence to keep going!

[trader_4]

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 10:14:16 AM UTC-4, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 23:27:26 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

Thanks for that advice on the high temp sealer.
Someone said that the threads are the ground for the electrical connection.


I tend to doubt that. In my experience with modern cars, the sensors
all have their own ground wires. Especially for a sensor, you want to
be sure it has a known, quality, direct path back to where it's being
measured.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 01:27:26 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 18:03:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3408929o2sensor13.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8568761o2sensor14.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5285317o2sensor15.jpg
Thanks for reposting. Yes, it is a fabricated manifold. What metal
it is is hard to say - likely a high nickelteel - similar to
Stainless.

Thanks Clare for your always wise and wonderful advice.

I have a friend with welding equipment lined up if I need to drill it out
to insert a bung and have it tack welded in place.

At the moment, I'm sticking with the simple plan of...
1. Hope the thread chaser worked (how would I know if it didn't work?)
2. If needed, try the M20x1.5 tap to add a M18x1.5 insert
3. If really needed, drill it out to have a bung tack welded in place

I think, as you astutely predicted early on, that #1 will suffice.

My main mental dilemma is only how to tell if gases are leaking past the
lambda sensor threads under pressure.

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

DO NOT put sealer on it. The "cell" needs to breathe - anything that
would restrict or poison the air getting to the cell will kill the
sensor.

I repeat - DO NOT PUT ANY KIND OF SEALER AROUND THE BASE OF THE SENSOR
- and yes I AM yelling!!!!

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 03:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 3 Aug 2018 19:55:41 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

That is possible - definitely check for leaks - but now at least he
knows if the light comes on again he DOES have a problem. The sensor
definitely needed to be fixed, either way.

Unfortunately I don't remember the code. But it was related to the oxygen
sensor, but I should have written it down. P0133 perhaps? I don't remember
though. So I apologize not to be able to provide that fact to you.


If it was P0133 it means slow response - definitely a bad sensoe

The good news is that a new code, if it pops up, will tell me something
since the sensor is new (and they don't last forever).

800 RPM hot idle does not necessarily sound like a problem - and a
bad sensor cannot get the computer to adjust the mixture properly.

I agree. The 800 is fine as an idle speed. But it does stall. So, there's
something wrong when it transitions from cold to warm. Dunno what yet. A
cost-effective smoke machine is something I've always wanted ...

(I built one, but it sucks.)

Need to check the block learn readings etc to know for sure , but too
rich or too lean should give rich or lean codes, not out of range
codes. Out of range means voltage higher or lower than normal
operating range, and generally static - not clocking. Too lean means
violtage higher than optimum - too rich means voltage too low .

As I recall, there were no misfire codes and no lean condition codes.
Just the O2 code (might have been a cat code, I wish I remembered it.)

Too lean would generally be a P0171, or P0174.
Too rich would be P0172 or P0175.

Yup. None of those. Since I own a bimmer that is almost two decades old, I
know all about lean condition codes.

This code was cat or sensor specific. But let's see if it comes back.


A bad sensor would generallly be a P0130 to P0170 - but other problems
can cause these codes as well.

Yup. Chasing codes is always fun. Not.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 03:40:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 3 Aug 2018 19:38:54 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

He didn't have to replace the sensor he screwed up.
He "salvaged" it and didn't have to tell the customer he screwed up -
or it was A DIY job and he figured he wasn't going to spend money on
"another ****ty sensor" that likely wouldn't fit either - - - - - -

Always blame the part - don't take the blame for your mistakes - - -

That makes sense (from his standpoint).

The old sensor didn't look at that old, so, maybe it was his attempt to fix
the code. Dunno.

I just think it was a crappy job that I'd be embarrassed to do if it were
me.

I'm glad you pointed to the chaser - as - I think - it did the trick (cross
my fingers).

Don't hurt your fingers. It worked.

[Arlen Holder]

On 4 Aug 2018 07:52:48 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

DO NOT put sealer on it. The "cell" needs to breathe - anything that
would restrict or poison the air getting to the cell will kill the
sensor.

I repeat - DO NOT PUT ANY KIND OF SEALER AROUND THE BASE OF THE SENSOR
- and yes I AM yelling!!!!

Hi Clare,
Over the decades, you have ALWAYS been right so I will follow your
instructions to the letter!

I'm an electrical engineer, by the way, but they do NOT teach us any of
this pragmatic stuff in school ... they don't even cover ground connections
in op amps, for example. So I learn a LOT of this stuff from you!

*THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR CORRECT HELP & ADVICE OVER THE YEARS!*
(and yes, I'm shouting gleefully!)

I very much appreciate that you are (a) so helpful, and (b) so experienced,
as I am not educated in automotive mechanics (other than a high school shop
class many decades ago when rwd & carbs & distributors & rusted out exhaust
pipes were the norm).

You give me the confidence to keep going, which I very much appreciate,
since I'm always helping this neighbor who is living off her savings and
whose husband died leaving her a house in need of tremendous repair and a
few kids that she loving dotes upon (whom I try to help as much as I can).

The *only* time we really differed, in all these years, is on the
feasibility of unmounting, remounting, and static balancing tires at home,
which I find so easy to do (particularly on the 14-inch wheels of this
Mitsubishi) that it takes fifteen minutes, easily, from start to finish,
where, to just drive to a shop and back would be multiple times that in
terms of time & effort.

The only other place, I think, we differ, is that I "think" alignment is
"doable" under the circumstances of whatever is "adjustable" on each
vehicle (e.g., my bimmer only has front toe, and rear camber & toe - so
those are the only three measurements & adjustments I'm talking about).

I know you guys seem to despise me simply for purchasing Harbor Freight
equipment, and, you're right in many ways as the tire changer isn't the
best tool on the planet (but at least it already paid for itself a while
ago at about the fifteenth tire) and the additional bead breaker (which is
a requirement for SUV tires) needed to be slightly modified (the base is
too short for larger diameter tires) - but it works just fine once I put a
plank of wood on the base to lengthen it for the 17-inch larger tires.

The one other thing some of you guys seem to hate is that I look things up
(e.g., I have realized that brake rotors just do not warp in normal street
use, and anyone who says they do, has actually never measured the warp (as
you would measure engine head/block warp, for example). Some of you who
hate that call that 'book knowledge', and I agree it's book knowledge - but
all knowledge is good, even book knowledge (I've read a billion textbooks
in my time, and nobody complains about them for example).

There are still six "big jobs" that I posit few people choose to do at home
(each for different main reasons), where I now have half of them under my
belt, and where I hope to do the other half before I die!
============
1. Habitually refuel a vehicle at home (I have been refueling for years)
2. Habitually mount, balance & patchplug tires at home (I've done 20 now)
3. Remove & repair a transmission (just did my 1st clutch, thanks to you!)
============
4. Measure & align what is designed to be adjusted (that's next on my list)
5. Prep & paint an old vehicle (that is also next on my do-b4-I-die list)
6. Remove & repair an engine (haven't done this - major downtime issue)
============

I "think" most people don't know what I know (and you know) about
re-fueling and changing tires at home, but the rest of the issues I can't
say that I know anything that most people don't already know.

I "think" the main reason most people don't do those six things are
(keep in mind the reasons below have to be short to fit on one line)
1. They don't have the room, privacy, or delivery options that I have.
2. Lots of reasons - but mostly it's that it's easier to pay someone.
3. Lots of reasons - but mostly it's too big of a job for most people.
4. I think the main reason is that they "think" it can't be done.
5. Lots of reasons - mainly that they want the results to look perfect.
6. Lots of reasons - mainly I think few can afford the lengthy downtime.

If you see a thread, in the future, about alignment checks of a Mitsubishi
Lancer ES, you'll know that I've finally tackled my first alignment job!

But first, I have to purchase toe plates that allow toe to be more easily
adjusted without having to roll the car back & forth - and I'll need to
find camber plates at a reasonable price that offset the electronic level
from the tire bulge while keeping the level parallel to the wheel.

Thanks again, Clare, for helping give me the confidence to do what most
people are afraid to try to do - where I can help others - save money - and
end up with the best parts at the lowest cost possible (and I end up with
the fun of figuring out where to store all the new tools I needed!).

[Arlen Holder]

On 4 Aug 2018 07:56:20 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

If it was P0133 it means slow response - definitely a bad sensoe

I think that's what it was, but what only matters now is what comes back!

BTW, I just bought oxygen sensors for three different vehicles, where I
*hate* throwing parts at a problem. I just hate it.

But it turns out to be difficult to *test* oxygen sensors faithfully.

Sure, you can heat them up and look for a voltage, but after trying that, I
gave up because a "really bad" oxygen sensor has its own code, but a
"slightly bad" oxygen sensor seems to, in my humble experience on two
different vehicles, cause one of two different related codes.

That is, in my experience,
a. A slightly bad lambda sensor can cause a CAT register to never set
b. A alightly bad lambda sensor can cause a "slow response" code

Given that the heat:voltage test of an oxygen sensor isn't really all that
accurate for those two things, and given that oxygen sensors are not only
relatively cheap but also known to not last more than about 100K miles, I
decided on all three vehicles to just "throw the part" at the vehicle.

In the case of the neighbor's CAT register that wouldn't set, it worked.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5366040sensorwiring01.jpg

The neighbor's kid's Mitsubishi is in testing.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6815290denso_mitsubishi_02_sensor.jp g

I'm still working on the bimmer (having just this week replaced the two
front Bosch upstrem lambda sensors).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3533947bosch_o2_sensor.jpg

What's amazing, to me, is that I've never replaced an oxygen sensor before,
in my entire life, but I never worked on such old cars either (two decades
old each of them).

Having zero prior experience with oxygen sensors, I think sometimes,
"throwing parts" at the problem might be OK in the case of emissions codes
because:
a. Oxygen sensors are not permanent parts anyway, and,
b. You have to get past smog (where a ticket is far more expensive), and,
c. You can't really test them accurately (from my experiments anyway).

[Arlen Holder]

On 4 Aug 2018 07:57:24 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Don't hurt your fingers. It worked.



I got some brand new stitches in my forearm last week, but it was due to a
carbon dioxide, explosion and not from working on cars!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5959146closeup.jpg

[Paul in Houston TX[_2_]]

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 23:27:26 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

Thanks for that advice on the high temp sealer.
Someone said that the threads are the ground for the electrical connection.

I did not explain well enough before.
Sealer around the sensor did not mean on the threads nor coating the sensor.
Picture a thin rubber band's worth where the sensor and manifold meet.

[trader_4]

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 2:49:16 PM UTC-4, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 23:27:26 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

Thanks for that advice on the high temp sealer.
Someone said that the threads are the ground for the electrical connection.

I did not explain well enough before.
Sealer around the sensor did not mean on the threads nor coating the sensor.
Picture a thin rubber band's worth where the sensor and manifold meet.

That's what I understood you to mean. IDK what Clare is talking about.
It sounds like he's saying that the sensor needs to breath on the
outside from what he said. I don't think it needs sealer, I think
the OP is obsessing, but I don't understand what Clare was talking
about either. You'd have to be a real maroon to put sealer on the
business end of the sensor.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 04 Aug 2018 13:48:54 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 3 Aug 2018 23:27:26 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it. Any leakage would be minor.
However, if you are worried about it you can put some high temp
sealer around it.
Don't know if a hose would work in this situation or not due to engine noise.
Get lenght of small hose, stick one end in ear, and use the other end
to listen for leaks.

Thanks for that advice on the high temp sealer.
Someone said that the threads are the ground for the electrical connection.

I did not explain well enough before.
Sealer around the sensor did not mean on the threads nor coating the sensor.
Picture a thin rubber band's worth where the sensor and manifold meet.
As long asd it is "sensor safe" - but why make it look like another
screw-up when it is perfectly fine as it is. Onlyu the top couplw
threads were damaged. The bottom threads were perfect. DON'T SCREW
WITH WHAT ISN"T BROKEN!!!!

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:44:20 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 4 Aug 2018 07:52:48 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

DO NOT put sealer on it. The "cell" needs to breathe - anything that
would restrict or poison the air getting to the cell will kill the
sensor.

I repeat - DO NOT PUT ANY KIND OF SEALER AROUND THE BASE OF THE SENSOR
- and yes I AM yelling!!!!

Hi Clare,
Over the decades, you have ALWAYS been right so I will follow your
instructions to the letter!

I'm an electrical engineer, by the way, but they do NOT teach us any of
this pragmatic stuff in school ... they don't even cover ground connections
in op amps, for example. So I learn a LOT of this stuff from you!

*THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR CORRECT HELP & ADVICE OVER THE YEARS!*
(and yes, I'm shouting gleefully!)

I very much appreciate that you are (a) so helpful, and (b) so experienced,
as I am not educated in automotive mechanics (other than a high school shop
class many decades ago when rwd & carbs & distributors & rusted out exhaust
pipes were the norm).

You give me the confidence to keep going, which I very much appreciate,
since I'm always helping this neighbor who is living off her savings and
whose husband died leaving her a house in need of tremendous repair and a
few kids that she loving dotes upon (whom I try to help as much as I can).

The *only* time we really differed, in all these years, is on the
feasibility of unmounting, remounting, and static balancing tires at home,
which I find so easy to do (particularly on the 14-inch wheels of this
Mitsubishi) that it takes fifteen minutes, easily, from start to finish,
where, to just drive to a shop and back would be multiple times that in
terms of time & effort.

The only other place, I think, we differ, is that I "think" alignment is
"doable" under the circumstances of whatever is "adjustable" on each
vehicle (e.g., my bimmer only has front toe, and rear camber & toe - so
those are the only three measurements & adjustments I'm talking about).

I know you guys seem to despise me simply for purchasing Harbor Freight
equipment, and, you're right in many ways as the tire changer isn't the
best tool on the planet (but at least it already paid for itself a while
ago at about the fifteenth tire) and the additional bead breaker (which is
a requirement for SUV tires) needed to be slightly modified (the base is
too short for larger diameter tires) - but it works just fine once I put a
plank of wood on the base to lengthen it for the 17-inch larger tires.

The one other thing some of you guys seem to hate is that I look things up
(e.g., I have realized that brake rotors just do not warp in normal street
use, and anyone who says they do, has actually never measured the warp (as
you would measure engine head/block warp, for example). Some of you who
hate that call that 'book knowledge', and I agree it's book knowledge - but
all knowledge is good, even book knowledge (I've read a billion textbooks
in my time, and nobody complains about them for example).

There are still six "big jobs" that I posit few people choose to do at home
(each for different main reasons), where I now have half of them under my
belt, and where I hope to do the other half before I die!
============
1. Habitually refuel a vehicle at home (I have been refueling for years)

Does your insurance company know?
How much fuel do you keep around?
There are very real safety issues to address - as well as hydrocarbon
emission issues.
2. Habitually mount, balance & patchplug tires at home (I've done 20 now)

I "rough balanced" the tires on the '53 MGTD I'm currently babysitting
and working on - to make it smooth enough to drive while I
troubleshoot other issues - but the tires are going onto the dynamic
balance at the first oppoertunity. I will be doing the balance - but
on proffessional equipment
3. Remove & repair a transmission (just did my 1st clutch, thanks to you!)
============
4. Measure & align what is designed to be adjusted (that's next on my list)

As an ex professional mechanic, I'll do toe-in adjustment as part ofa
front end repair - but it will go onto a REAL alignment machine before
it gets any miles on it - because I KNOW how important it is to get it
right - and how hard it is to do it right without proper equipment

5. Prep & paint an old vehicle (that is also next on my do-b4-I-die list)

As long as you don't mind driving your screw-ups (and there WILL be
several, at the very least - for sure -) go for it. I've painted a
few - and never been truly happy with any of my paint jobs. They've
been good - but not up to "my standards"
6. Remove & repair an engine (haven't done this - major downtime issue)

\Go for it. Start with a lawnmower motor. Then go to a simple older
engine like a sixties chevy, ford, or Chrysler six - on a "peoject
car" - or start with an old tractor that you don't need - but can use
when it's done for plowing snow or cutting grass - - -
============

I "think" most people don't know what I know (and you know) about
re-fueling and changing tires at home, but the rest of the issues I can't
say that I know anything that most people don't already know.

I "think" the main reason most people don't do those six things are
(keep in mind the reasons below have to be short to fit on one line)
1. They don't have the room, privacy, or delivery options that I have.
2. Lots of reasons - but mostly it's that it's easier to pay someone.
3. Lots of reasons - but mostly it's too big of a job for most people.
4. I think the main reason is that they "think" it can't be done.
5. Lots of reasons - mainly that they want the results to look perfect.
6. Lots of reasons - mainly I think few can afford the lengthy downtime.

If you see a thread, in the future, about alignment checks of a Mitsubishi
Lancer ES, you'll know that I've finally tackled my first alignment job!

But first, I have to purchase toe plates that allow toe to be more easily
adjusted without having to roll the car back & forth - and I'll need to
find camber plates at a reasonable price that offset the electronic level
from the tire bulge while keeping the level parallel to the wheel.

Thanks again, Clare, for helping give me the confidence to do what most
people are afraid to try to do - where I can help others - save money - and
end up with the best parts at the lowest cost possible (and I end up with
the fun of figuring out where to store all the new tools I needed!).

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 16:08:50 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 4 Aug 2018 07:56:20 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

If it was P0133 it means slow response - definitely a bad sensoe

I think that's what it was, but what only matters now is what comes back!

BTW, I just bought oxygen sensors for three different vehicles, where I
*hate* throwing parts at a problem. I just hate it.

But it turns out to be difficult to *test* oxygen sensors faithfully.

Sure, you can heat them up and look for a voltage, but after trying that, I
gave up because a "really bad" oxygen sensor has its own code, but a
"slightly bad" oxygen sensor seems to, in my humble experience on two
different vehicles, cause one of two different related codes.

That is, in my experience,
a. A slightly bad lambda sensor can cause a CAT register to never set
b. A alightly bad lambda sensor can cause a "slow response" code

Given that the heat:voltage test of an oxygen sensor isn't really all that
accurate for those two things, and given that oxygen sensors are not only
relatively cheap but also known to not last more than about 100K miles, I
decided on all three vehicles to just "throw the part" at the vehicle.

With a proper OBD2 tester you can see the voltage fluctuation while
the engine is running. I can tell you in less than 15 minutes if the
sensor is good or bad - while it is in the car (front sensor)

In the case of the neighbor's CAT register that wouldn't set, it worked.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5366040sensorwiring01.jpg

The neighbor's kid's Mitsubishi is in testing.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6815290denso_mitsubishi_02_sensor.jp g

I'm still working on the bimmer (having just this week replaced the two
front Bosch upstrem lambda sensors).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3533947bosch_o2_sensor.jpg

What's amazing, to me, is that I've never replaced an oxygen sensor before,
in my entire life, but I never worked on such old cars either (two decades
old each of them).

Having zero prior experience with oxygen sensors, I think sometimes,
"throwing parts" at the problem might be OK in the case of emissions codes
because:
a. Oxygen sensors are not permanent parts anyway, and,
b. You have to get past smog (where a ticket is far more expensive), and,
c. You can't really test them accurately (from my experiments anyway).

[Arlen Holder]

On 4 Aug 2018 20:06:18 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

With a proper OBD2 tester you can see the voltage fluctuation while
the engine is running. I can tell you in less than 15 minutes if the
sensor is good or bad - while it is in the car (front sensor)

I have live data, and freeze frame on my OBDII tester, but I don't know
what to look for (and yes, I saw that video on what to look for).

It didn't sink in mentally. I'm not sure why. I think I don't have the
background to glean the details yet.

Anyway, as I said, all three vehicles have new oxygen sensors, and one
already passed smog - the other two need the registers to be set first.

[Arlen Holder]

On 4 Aug 2018 20:02:46 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Does your insurance company know?
Long ago I checked with the local fire marshall, who told me that they're
perfectly legal as long as they're in legal containers.

I also checked with the CHP 800 number who said transport of gasoline is
perfectly legal as long as it's less than 600 pounds, which is the federal
limit on "hazardous materials" transport. (It's a felony to transport more
than 600 pounds at a time, but that's more gas than a car can carry.)

I checked with CARB who said that emissions standards don't play a role
unless any one container is over 50 gallons (that's why drums, they told
me, are technically 50 gallons but actually less) and the sum total is less
than 300 gallons.

I checked with OSHA who "recommended" a spill pan, and aired enclosure, but
who said OSHA rules don't apply to homeowners.

There are zero "zoning" rules according to the local planning department
(other than structures must be 100 feet from the road or they need a
permit, but that applies to any structure that is less than 10 by 10 (as I
recall) and 12 feet high (as I recall).

How much fuel do you keep around?

Only about 50 gallons at a time, all in legal containers.

The fire department comes by once a year, unannounced, to write up
fire-break violations - and they "see" the gasoline since it's stored in
big red jugs right out in the open. They don't even blink (and yet, they
make me clear all flammable growth 100 feet from the house and 10 feet from
the propane tanks).

In California, you can't legally fill more than 6 gallon containers at a
gas station, which is a rule that went into effect only relatively
recently, where some of my containers (the WWII style ones) are 6 gallons.

Delivery of gasoline less than 200 to 300 gallons is problematic, where my
ultimate "station" will be in 40-gallon epoxy-lined drums with an electric
pump just like the gas-station pumps. (I have plenty of room for it.)

There are very real safety issues to address - as well as hydrocarbon
emission issues.

I don't do things lightly - I plan them out - as you know. It's no less
safe than you storing a single 5-gallon can of gasoline - the only
difference being the amount - but my 50 gallons is exactly as safe as your
5 gallons. Exactly. The safety is the same. It's only the amount that is
different.

Of course, gasoline is flammable, and of course there are hydrocarbons, but
I am a thorough person, who checked with all the relevant authorities. I
leak as many hydrocarbons as you do when you fill your lawn mower (in fact,
I'm VERY WELL AWARE of hydrocarbons, so I might even leak less than you do
since my process takes them into account somewhat).

If the gas is stored in approved containers, you can keep hundreds of
gallons legally at home. You can fill every inch of your front lawn for
example. As long as each container is legal, there is no limit on numbers
of containers (if they're 5-gallon jugs).

There are no rules for how you get the gasoline OUT of the container with
respect to emissions either. But I'm very good about that too.

(Of course, the containers themselves are CARB/EPA approved so, as you're
well aware, the gas goes in and doesn't come out easily - due to the ****ty
spouts - but that's a different beast altogether which I've solved
separately by not using them).

Sure, gas is flammable. But so is the gasoline stored at everyone elses'
house too. They just don't have as much of it. Most people with three cars
in the garage have as much as I have for example, outside.

2. Habitually mount, balance & patchplug tires at home (I've done 20 now)

I "rough balanced" the tires on the '53 MGTD I'm currently babysitting
and working on - to make it smooth enough to drive while I
troubleshoot other issues - but the tires are going onto the dynamic
balance at the first oppoertunity. I will be doing the balance - but
on proffessional equipment.

Yup. I know all about it.

Let's not argue here, but at least you have balanced wheels so you're one
of the very rare people who knows what you're talking about when you say
you wouldn't do it at home (because you don't like the job).

Most people only talk bull**** when they cry that they can't mount,
balance, and properly patchplug repair tires at home.

If they've never done it, then they're just talking out of their asses.
I know you've done it - although I think you used professional equipment.

Even with harbor freight Chinese crap tools, it's a piece of cake to
unmount and mount a tire, particularly a non-SUV passenger-car tire. The
wheels don't take a beating, even on my bimmer despite the fact the
crybabies assume they will (it's far more gentle than what a shop typically
does).

Those who cry that it is too much work, or that it's too expensive, or that
it takes too much time, or that it's dangerous, etc., are all just
crybabies who are just scared of their own shadow and afraid to get their
hands dirty.

It's so easy that I can do it in 15 minutes easily, although I am never in
a rush so the time is just to explain how easy it is. I scrub the wheels. I
remove the old weights. I match mount if possible the new tire. I am aware
of the drop center (thanks!). I replace the valves (that stupid valve stem
removal tool is a waste of money and space in the tool drawer - although
the valve seat removal tool is a godsend).

Anyway, tires are so easy that anyone who says they are not just proves
that they are an idiot.

The only thing you can't do easily at home is dynamically balance, but the
test for dynamic imbalance is free as you're already well aware. You just
don't know which tire it is!

3. Remove & repair a transmission (just did my 1st clutch, thanks to you!)
============
4. Measure & align what is designed to be adjusted (that's next on my list)

As an ex professional mechanic, I'll do toe-in adjustment as part ofa
front end repair - but it will go onto a REAL alignment machine before
it gets any miles on it - because I KNOW how important it is to get it
right - and how hard it is to do it right without proper equipment

I disagree but I understand. The reason people don't do each of the six
things is different for each item, where alignment makes the brain hurt.

It's not so much that there's trig involved, but it's more that the spec is
never in the same "thing" that you're measuring. For example, the damn
bimmer spec is in degrees of toe to the centerline. WTF.

It's not too hard to find the centerline, but you generally measure in
inches, not in degrees of toe.

At least camber is usually spec'd in degrees, which is what you measure.

Just like with tire-changing tools, every year the tools to measure camber
and toe (which is all the bimmer can adjust anyway) get better and cheaper.

You can do it with a plumb bob and ruler, but I prefer to measure toe in
inches and camber in degrees.

The hard part (other than the conversions of degrees to inches) is changing
toe without having to roll the car back and forth. Also, for the bimmer,
you need about 500 pounds of weight, but that's where all those gas cans
come in handy (filled with water).

5. Prep & paint an old vehicle (that is also next on my do-b4-I-die list)

As long as you don't mind driving your screw-ups (and there WILL be
several, at the very least - for sure -) go for it. I've painted a
few - and never been truly happy with any of my paint jobs. They've
been good - but not up to "my standards".

I completely understand. Remember, these cars are two decades old. Any
paint job will be a good paint job. It's like the old saying pilots have
for what a good landing is.

I think California just recently enacted a law saying you can't paint at
home anymore - but I'd have to check up on that with CARB as I haven't
spoken to them in a year (I call them up all the time and they're actually
very helpful engineers).

6. Remove & repair an engine (haven't done this - major downtime issue)

\Go for it. Start with a lawnmower motor. Then go to a simple older
engine like a sixties chevy, ford, or Chrysler six - on a "peoject
car" - or start with an old tractor that you don't need - but can use
when it's done for plowing snow or cutting grass - - -

I've taken apart some engines but the problem with a car is that it's a LOT
of stuff that has to come out, so there is a huge downtime that most people
just can't afford.

In summary, I've thought about the six jobs for years, and I've asked
people, but very few give an answer that makes sense. Your answers make
sense except for the refueling, but the rest make sense.

The main reasons, as I see them, summarized to fit on one line, are.
1. Gas: Most people just stop at a gas station; which is easy.
2. Tires: Most people pay $20 per tire; which is easy.
3. Trans: Most people just pay a mechanic $500 to $1000; which is easy.
---------- (these below I haven't done yet) ----------
4. Align: Most people's brains would explode with all the thinking.
5. Paint: A body shop will always do a far better job.
6. Engine: Nobody can afford the downtime for a daily driver.

[Arlen Holder]

On 5 Aug 2018 07:01:48 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

I checked with CARB who said that emissions standards don't play a role
unless any one container is over 50 gallons (that's why drums, they told
me, are technically 50 gallons but actually less) and the sum total is less
than 300 gallons.

Actually, as I recall, there are two limits for CARB, one of which is the
49 gallon drum, and the other of which is the 300 gallons.

The emissions don't hit until you store more than 300 gallons and the drums
don't hit if they're a fraction under 50 gallons.

As I recall.

The point is that I currently have a dozen 5-gallon legal "jugs", any one
of which and all of which are perfectly legal as there is no limit anywhere
to how many you can store according to my research years ago.

And, I'll go to two-49-gallon drums when I upgrade to the pump system (I'm
going for a 12V pump but you can do hand-operated pumps - but why bother
since it's so easy without any pump that if you're gonna pump - you may as
well go well-grounded electrical).

The big problem is delivery.
Not the storage or refueling (both of which are utterly trivial).

[Scott Dorsey]

Arlen Holder wrote:
BTW, I just bought oxygen sensors for three different vehicles, where I
*hate* throwing parts at a problem. I just hate it.

But it turns out to be difficult to *test* oxygen sensors faithfully.

Sure, you can heat them up and look for a voltage, but after trying that, I
gave up because a "really bad" oxygen sensor has its own code, but a
"slightly bad" oxygen sensor seems to, in my humble experience on two
different vehicles, cause one of two different related codes.

You don't test them on the bench. You use the scanner. You set the scanner
to give you a display of the oxygen sensor signal (and it will show the
nominal level, but if it's so bad it's setting codes you'll likely see the
pointer slammed to one side or another). So now you know what the computer
is doing.

You also know what the engine is doing. The exhaust smells rich or lean.
You can put your hand over the intake... if it runs better, the engine is
too lean.

When you know what the engine is doing and you know what the computer is
doing, you know all you need to know about the oxygen sensor. If the
computer thinks it's too rich but it's really too lean, it's likely the
sensor, but if the computer thinks it's too lean but can't enrichen it out
far enough, it's likely not.

Timing and ignition problems will produce poor combustion which will show
up as oxygen sensor errors... but you can see THOSE because the computer
gives you ignition timing information.

The scanner will tell you all of the inputs and all of the outputs.

That is, in my experience,
a. A slightly bad lambda sensor can cause a CAT register to never set
b. A alightly bad lambda sensor can cause a "slow response" code

Ignore the damn codes. The codes let you know that something is out of
range but it doesn't tell you anything else. Look at the plots. If you
just spend your time staring at the codes you won't understand what is
going on inside the box.

What's amazing, to me, is that I've never replaced an oxygen sensor before,
in my entire life, but I never worked on such old cars either (two decades
old each of them).

They do fail, but the vast majority of 'oxygen sensor' error codes have
absolutely nothing to do with the oxygen sensor itself. They are faithfully
recording that the exhaust is way wrong.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Xeno]

On 6/8/18 12:22 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Arlen Holder wrote:
BTW, I just bought oxygen sensors for three different vehicles, where I
*hate* throwing parts at a problem. I just hate it.

But it turns out to be difficult to *test* oxygen sensors faithfully.

Sure, you can heat them up and look for a voltage, but after trying that, I
gave up because a "really bad" oxygen sensor has its own code, but a
"slightly bad" oxygen sensor seems to, in my humble experience on two
different vehicles, cause one of two different related codes.

You don't test them on the bench. You use the scanner. You set the scanner
to give you a display of the oxygen sensor signal (and it will show the
nominal level, but if it's so bad it's setting codes you'll likely see the
pointer slammed to one side or another). So now you know what the computer
is doing.

You also know what the engine is doing. The exhaust smells rich or lean.
You can put your hand over the intake... if it runs better, the engine is
too lean.

When you know what the engine is doing and you know what the computer is
doing, you know all you need to know about the oxygen sensor. If the
computer thinks it's too rich but it's really too lean, it's likely the
sensor, but if the computer thinks it's too lean but can't enrichen it out
far enough, it's likely not.

Timing and ignition problems will produce poor combustion which will show
up as oxygen sensor errors... but you can see THOSE because the computer
gives you ignition timing information.

The scanner will tell you all of the inputs and all of the outputs.

That is, in my experience,
a. A slightly bad lambda sensor can cause a CAT register to never set
b. A alightly bad lambda sensor can cause a "slow response" code

Ignore the damn codes. The codes let you know that something is out of
range but it doesn't tell you anything else. Look at the plots. If you
just spend your time staring at the codes you won't understand what is
going on inside the box.

It always amazes me the dependence people place on those codes without
really understanding the *system* that is generating the codes and, in
most cases, the *limitations* of those systems.

What's amazing, to me, is that I've never replaced an oxygen sensor before,
in my entire life, but I never worked on such old cars either (two decades
old each of them).

They do fail, but the vast majority of 'oxygen sensor' error codes have
absolutely nothing to do with the oxygen sensor itself. They are faithfully
recording that the exhaust is way wrong.
--scott



--

Xeno

"The best way to make a fire with two sticks is to make sure one of them
is a match."
-- Will Rogers

[Arlen Holder]

On 5 Aug 2018 07:31:19 GMT, Xeno wrote:

It always amazes me the dependence people place on those codes without
really understanding the *system* that is generating the codes and, in
most cases, the *limitations* of those systems.

I agree with both you and Scott that *most people* (not me, but most
people), when they see a sensor code, they replace the sensor.

It could be a temperature sensor for heaven's sake, and they replace the
sensor.

As I told Scott, I'm an EE so I know how to test a sensor, but in the case
of oxygen sensors, I've had five years' experience with the toyota and
bimmer where a bad sensor will make the FTP not set the related monitors
for hundreds of miles. IN the case of the toyota, it took about 400 miles,
and it took more than a thousand in the case of the bimmer.

In *both* cases, I took it to the smog referee and passed with flying
colors, even with the registers unset (since that's what the BAR smog
referee did in years past). They don't do that anymore, so you're stuck
now.

I know the FTP inside and out, and spoke to the BAR engineers who know it
even better than I do. I went over all the dozen conditions that an engine
must be in order for a monitor to be set.

Remember, in both cases, the bar smog referee PASSED the vehicle.

The problem is much more sinister than you seem to have experience with.
But I do agree with you that *most people* just throw parts at a problem.

What I find hilarious is what happens AFTER people throw parts at a
problem. Let's take the two corner cases, assuming, for example, that a
problem can have FIVE (for argument's sake) caususes:

1. If they guess right on the first pass, they claim that they are an utter
genius, and after that, for the rest of their lives, anyone who has that
same problem, they swear the answer is that first solution.
2. If they guess wrong, and have to replace all five parts, they swear that
the first four parts were bad, until they finally get to the right part.

Anyway, the main point here is that we all agree that throwing parts at a
problem is a crazy way to "fix things" but you have to admit a lot of car
problems are fixed that way.

I find the funniest "throwing parts" at a problem to be "brake warp".
I'm sure the intelligent ones here know that street rotors just don't warp.
So I will assume you know that.
(Nobody ever measures warp - but it's easy to measure warp which you do
measure for a head, for example.)

So what do the morons do when they get a brake-related vibration at speed?
They throw rotors (& sometimes pads & even bigger calipers) at it.

Guess what?
That solves the warp!
Instantly!

They *think* they're an utter genius.
They *think* they proved they had rotor warp.

Every brake vibration for the rest of their lives, is due to "warp".
Hehhehheh ....

Q: Why does this work?
A: Because the *short term* solution is *different* than the long-term one!

While brake-related judder can be caused by many things (look up the Tire
Rack vibration flow chart as just one example), let's assume that judder
was due to uneven pad deposition.

You can't measure that stuff (not with home equipment you can't).
So the rotors measure fine (not that anyone who thinks they warp measures
anything).

What happened in the case of "warp", is that there was uneven pad
deposition (let's say for this case), and so, replacing (or machining) the
rotors "solved" the problem but - get this - the warp comes back.

The guy who *thinks* the rotors warped is dumbfounded.

The short term solution solved the "warp", but the long term solution
didn't.
Q: What's the short term solution?
A: Change your rotors (or machine them or rebed them).

Q: What's the long term solution?
A: Change your braking habits.

My point is that, while I'm not a mechanic, and while I only have the
experience of the cars that I own or that friends/neighbors own, I
generally troubleshoot a problem to the UNDERSTANDING of teh cause of the
problem.

In the case of oxygen sensors, I know, from my experience with two old
vehicles, that an o2 sensor can be just bad enough to not set codes but to
take between 400 and 1000 miles to set all the registers - even as the
emissions are perfect.

If you can diagnose *that*, you'd be my hero!
Likewise, if you can suggest a working $100 smoke machine, I'd love you!

[Scott Dorsey]

Arlen Holder wrote:
I do have live data and freeze frame though, but I'm not sure what to look
for.

Well, THERE is your problem. Look at what is going on with a correctly
running engine.

It is a closed loop system. Data comes in from the lambda sensor, and
once the machine is warmed-up and the system is running closed-loop, the
oxygen concentration is used by the computer to set the mixture control.

You can watch it on the scanner... watch the sensor value when you open
and close the throttle by hand, watch it when you squirt a little WD-40
in there. The output of the lambda sensor goes into a second order
function that is nonlinear but time-invariant and what comes out is the
error for the mixture. The mixture is adjusted in realtime based on that
error value.

If you do not understand that this is a simple single-loop feeback system,
we have a problem.

For example, it has been four or five years running now that the bimmer
wouldn't set a register after clearing the codes (two different smog
cycles) where, finally, after many hundreds of miles, the registers all
finally will set.

All that is nice, but who cares? Get the engine running well. When the
engine runs well, you won't have to worry about smog testing. The key
is to get the engine running well.

Remember, the sensor is working as the code is NOT an oxygen sensor code.
There is no code on the bimmer. The register just won't set.

The bit gets set when a certain amount of time has taken place without
particular parameters being out of range. If the bit isn't being set,
something is going out of the nominal range. Looking at the values in the
scanner will tell you what the inputs and outputs are, and if you have the
BMW scanner you can see a lot of the intermediate calculations going on as
well.

Stop wasting your time worrying about the bits not being set and worry about
why the engine isn't running as well as it could be.

[irrelevant junk removed about diagnosing vacuum leaks]

When you know what the engine is doing and you know what the computer is
doing, you know all you need to know about the oxygen sensor.

Maybe. I think you know far more than I do.
The only reliable data I would have is freeze frame and live data.
On the Bimmer, I have INPA/EDIABAS on a PC (and DIS, Progman, etc.) so that
tells me a lot.

But you have to know exactly what to look for.
I don't.

That tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about what is going on with the
computer. You get to see all the inputs and all the outputs, and you should
have a pretty good notion of what the computer algorithm is if you have read
the manuals.

NOW you need to learn to know what is going on with the engine, using your
basic senses. When what is going on with the engine is at variance with
what the computer sees, you have found the problem.

If the
computer thinks it's too rich but it's really too lean, it's likely the
sensor, but if the computer thinks it's too lean but can't enrichen it out
far enough, it's likely not.

I don't understand.

It's clear that you don't. It's a feedback loop. Do you remember control
theory in school? The computer sees the input, it uses it to adjust the
output. If the input is wrong, the output will be wrong in the opposite
direction.

Timing and ignition problems will produce poor combustion which will show
up as oxygen sensor errors... but you can see THOSE because the computer
gives you ignition timing information.

Timing, nowadays, isn't usually an issue.

Ignition timing is OFTEN an issue. Valve timing isn't so often an issue,
but you get a free valve timing test when you're checking the ignition
timing anyway.

The computer controls the ignition timing, and it does so based on a number
of inputs most notably the ping sensor. The computer will advance and retard
the timing, and you can see it happening on the scanner display. It does
not always do so properly.

In fact on some modern engines (like BMWs with VANOS), the computer has control
over the valve timing and that might be based on feedback or it might just be
a lookup table where RPM goes into the function and VANOS servo position comes
out. Again, the scanner will let you watch it happening, the manual will
describe how it's supposed to happen, and your brain can correlate the two.

The scanner will tell you all of the inputs and all of the outputs.

You have to realize that I "think" that an "almost good almost bad" sensor
is hard to diagnose. It won't set a sensor code. It will just prevent the
related register from being set.

This is because you're fixated on the codes. Stop worrying about the codes,
stop worrying about the register bits, start worrying about how well the
engine is running.

Ignore the damn codes. The codes let you know that something is out of
range but it doesn't tell you anything else. Look at the plots. If you
just spend your time staring at the codes you won't understand what is
going on inside the box.

You have to understand that I'm an electrical engineer.
I'm not your typical person.

Then start acting like an engineer and stop acting like a board swapper.

It seems that you may not have had the experience I have with a sensor that
is good enough to pass smog wonderfully, even by the BAR referee, but which
is bad enough not to allow a cat-related register to set.

If you can diagnose that, from the live data and freeze frame data, I'd
love to know how because that would be an art unto itself.

Of COURSE you can diagnose that from the realtime scanner data. That's what
the scanner is FOR. Stop worrying about the stupid codes, stop worrying
about errors and register bits, start thinking about what it takes for the
mixture to be correct and how far off the mixture is likely to be.

If the oxygen sensor output is in the normal range, but the injector duty
cycles are all way out of the normal range, you have a mixture problem.
Because the computer is working hard to move the sensor values into that
normal range.

It won't set any codes, it won't produce any errors, but the car won't run
right. Maybe you have a leak, maybe you have a plugged injector, maybe you
have low fuel rail pressure. The computer lets you see that there is a
problem, THEN you can start measuring things to see where it is.

Because the system is closed-loop, the computer will compensate for problems
in the system... until it no longer can and THEN once it get catastrophically
bad and something is totally out range, THEN it will set an error.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."