On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5, James
Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of electronic
limiter on a power tool so if you over-stress it,
it doesn't consume enough current to melt the
coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the engine,
you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do have
thermal overloads in them. I guess hand tool
manufacturers assume you will stop before you burn
up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have a
lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the plug,
not the 13A standard everyone seems to use. And no I
don't have any form of circuit breaker, earth leakage
or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged into
that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a seperate
wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse ones
are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the fuse
that takes up the space, it's because they can take 13
amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need for
special circuits with different currents and voltages, just
one standard plug and socket for anything you like,
anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer, a lamp, a
hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer into the
same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but because
of the already existig proliferation of both low and high
volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the US, it
was deterined impractical. At that point in time, there was
not such a proliferation of such devices in the UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs the
same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually move
over to the higher voltage too to simplify things. New
appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact switched
mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date it
would probably be economically unfeasible given the millions
of devices from generating stations down to single households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a problem
with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really care. I
was only curious some physical attributes of the UK system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old 25
hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors, ballasts
and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was a major
hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively small number
of induction motors and flourescent lights in use, as well as
clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty litteral
and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz generators
- they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters which have
only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od the last
generating stations - with some industries in New York STILL
running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006? when the
25hz generators at the old Rankine station were decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in all
American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new things
and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and is
not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with 120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap, and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed to
support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and dryer.
It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out the power
panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be replaced
because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that you have any
intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point. Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from petrol overnight.

--
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright, another mentally
deficient troll-feeding moron, blathered again:


obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Gee... with some of you senile Yanks it just takes so long until you catch
on! LOL

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.



I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed. .The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Virtually NO benefit. Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

The ONLY things not taking less power are resistance heating devices
(which are often being replaced with more power efficient devices such
as microwave ovens and induction stove-tops which consume
significantly less power) - and if they are of any size (ovens,
ranges, driers, or central heating devices) they are ALREADY using 240
volts.

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.



I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

It would make JWS happy.





The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed. .The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Virtually NO benefit. Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

The ONLY things not taking less power are resistance heating devices
(which are often being replaced with more power efficient devices such
as microwave ovens and induction stove-tops which consume
significantly less power) - and if they are of any size (ovens,
ranges, driers, or central heating devices) they are ALREADY using 240
volts.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:07:32 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 24 Apr 2018 06:47:28a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of
electronic limiter on a power tool so if you
over-stress it, it doesn't consume enough
current to melt the coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the
engine, you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do
have thermal overloads in them. I guess hand
tool manufacturers assume you will stop before
you burn up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have
a lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately?
o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the
plug, not the 13A standard everyone seems to use.
And no I don't have any form of circuit breaker,
earth leakage or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged
into that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a
seperate wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse
ones are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or
something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the
fuse that takes up the space, it's because they can take
13 amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need
for special circuits with different currents and
voltages, just one standard plug and socket for anything
you like, anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer,
a lamp, a hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer
into the same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but
because of the already existig proliferation of both low
and high volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the
US, it was deterined impractical. At that point in time,
there was not such a proliferation of such devices in the
UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs
the same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually
move over to the higher voltage too to simplify things.
New appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact
switched mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date
it would probably be economically unfeasible given the
millions of devices from generating stations down to single
households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or
worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a
problem with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really
care. I was only curious some physical attributes of the UK
system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old
25 hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors,
ballasts and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was
a major hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively
small number of induction motors and flourescent lights in
use, as well as clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty
litteral and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz
generators - they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters
which have only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od
the last generating stations - with some industries in New
York STILL running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006?
when the 25hz generators at the old Rankine station were
decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in
all American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new
things and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and
is not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

--
Love conquers all, except in tennis.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:21:16 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.

I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

And yet you keep on reading my posts. Is this a sign of true love?

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

Why on earth would that be required?

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

I never said you have to make them look like ours. And I never said you'd need to change all of them at once. I used the word gradual remember?

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

Which is?

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed.

Really? Does a breaker care what the voltage is?

Even if they did, you can change a couple at a time.

The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Switches will work way above their voltage rating if you're not drawing maximum current. I've used a 12VDC switch rated at 10 amps to control a 240V light at 1 amp.

Virtually NO benefit.

People who litter their posts with capitals and exclamation marks have OCD!

Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

At half the current, they are half as thick. I dread to think what your Hoover wires are like.

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

And magically you'd inherit all those?

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Actually I have a couple of adapters on the desk to my left. They will take any plug from USA, Australia, China, EU or the UK, and some others, I think the total was 8 completely different types. They just have some odd shaped holes which are a combination of all the different prong positions. Very handy as I can buy cheap stuff off Ebay from abroad and just plug it straight in.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Please disable your capslock key.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

But there are more things in use that draw power. Think back to when you were a child and had a single lightbulb and a TV set in the room.

The ONLY things not taking less power are resistance heating devices
(which are often being replaced with more power efficient devices such
as microwave ovens and induction stove-tops which consume
significantly less power) - and if they are of any size (ovens,
ranges, driers, or central heating devices) they are ALREADY using 240
volts.

--
"I've never claimed to be anything more than a simple person" - Ronald Tompkins, circa 2013.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 00:16:02 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 1:21:22 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.



I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

It would make JWS happy.

KISS.

--
Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:07:32 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 24 Apr 2018 06:47:28a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of
electronic limiter on a power tool so if you
over-stress it, it doesn't consume enough
current to melt the coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the
engine, you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do
have thermal overloads in them. I guess hand
tool manufacturers assume you will stop before
you burn up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have
a lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately?
o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the
plug, not the 13A standard everyone seems to use.
And no I don't have any form of circuit breaker,
earth leakage or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged
into that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a
seperate wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse
ones are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or
something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the
fuse that takes up the space, it's because they can take
13 amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need
for special circuits with different currents and
voltages, just one standard plug and socket for anything
you like, anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer,
a lamp, a hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer
into the same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but
because of the already existig proliferation of both low
and high volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the
US, it was deterined impractical. At that point in time,
there was not such a proliferation of such devices in the
UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs
the same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually
move over to the higher voltage too to simplify things.
New appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact
switched mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date
it would probably be economically unfeasible given the
millions of devices from generating stations down to single
households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or
worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a
problem with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really
care. I was only curious some physical attributes of the UK
system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old
25 hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors,
ballasts and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was
a major hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively
small number of induction motors and flourescent lights in
use, as well as clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty
litteral and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz
generators - they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters
which have only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od
the last generating stations - with some industries in New
York STILL running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006?
when the 25hz generators at the old Rankine station were
decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in
all American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new
things and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and
is not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one,

Then both of those receptacles are switched together, on one switch.
As Wayne explained, you can have one half of a receptacle always hot
and the other switched. But I'm sure you'll fail to see the usefulness
of that, because it's apparently not done in the UK.




and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

And there is an advantage to having half of one switched the other half live.





The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

--
Love conquers all, except in tennis.

More likely you didn't understand what you were told.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 4:52:05 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:21:16 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.

I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

And yet you keep on reading my posts. Is this a sign of true love?

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

Why on earth would that be required?

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

I never said you have to make them look like ours. And I never said you'd need to change all of them at once. I used the word gradual remember?

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

Which is?

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed.

Really? Does a breaker care what the voltage is?

Even if they did, you can change a couple at a time.

They do care, because a 120V breaker only contacts one hot.
A 240V breaker contacts two hots and takes two slots in the panel
So, you're going to run out of free breaker slots and need
a new panel. All that expense to solve a problem that only
you think exists.





The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Switches will work way above their voltage rating if you're not drawing maximum current. I've used a 12VDC switch rated at 10 amps to control a 240V light at 1 amp.


Ain't that special? The village idiot that's bitching because he thinks
we should have a fuse in every plug for safety, now says it's OK to
use equipment beyond it's rating.




Virtually NO benefit.

People who litter their posts with capitals and exclamation marks have OCD!

Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

At half the current, they are half as thick. I dread to think what your Hoover wires are like.

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

And magically you'd inherit all those?

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Actually I have a couple of adapters on the desk to my left. They will take any plug from USA, Australia, China, EU or the UK, and some others, I think the total was 8 completely different types. They just have some odd shaped holes which are a combination of all the different prong positions. Very handy as I can buy cheap stuff off Ebay from abroad and just plug it straight in.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Please disable your capslock key.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

But there are more things in use that draw power. Think back to when you were a child and had a single lightbulb and a TV set in the room.

The big loads:

Ovens
Range
Stove
Dryer
Central AC
Water heater


They are all 240V and with the exception of the dryer and stove
are direct wired on their own circuits. The dryer and stove have
their own dedicated 30 0r 40A receptacle where they are located.
And where they stay. Unlike the UK, where apparently you move those
around to various other rooms in the house. Go figure.






The ONLY things not taking less power are resistance heating devices
(which are often being replaced with more power efficient devices such
as microwave ovens and induction stove-tops which consume
significantly less power) - and if they are of any size (ovens,
ranges, driers, or central heating devices) they are ALREADY using 240
volts.



And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:07:53 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding Yankietard, driveled again:


More likely you didn't understand what you were told.

More likely that you are a REALLY retarded idiot who doesn't understand AT
ALL what's going on, tardo_4! BG

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding Yankietard, driveled again:


FLUSH yet more of the obviously retarded idiot's troll-fodder

In article , says...

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched
now.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.




Many places had one side of an outlet switched. It was often before
overhead lighting. The side that was switched would have a lamp plugged
into it. The switch would be on the wall near the door so you could
switch on the light before entering the room

Someone told you something different than what you heard.

Unless it was done special like I have wired some outlets, the standard
practice is that both outlets on that one doublesocket is fed together.
that is the hot side and the neutral side of both outlets are wired
together.

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:10:14 -0400, Ralph Mowery, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding Yankietard, blabbered:


Someone told you something different than what you heard.

He's an idiot! And so are you for not realizing it, idiot!

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

Pretty flat for about 20 years.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=US

You'll probably find that the usage of central AC has increased,
largely offsetting the efficiencies you note.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:10:14 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched
now.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.




Many places had one side of an outlet switched. It was often before
overhead lighting. The side that was switched would have a lamp plugged
into it. The switch would be on the wall near the door so you could
switch on the light before entering the room

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Someone told you something different than what you heard.

More likely he didn't understand *anything* he was told.

Unless it was done special like I have wired some outlets, the standard
practice is that both outlets on that one doublesocket is fed together.
that is the hot side and the neutral side of both outlets are wired
together.

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 9:34:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:10:14 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched
now.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.




Many places had one side of an outlet switched. It was often before
overhead lighting. The side that was switched would have a lamp plugged
into it. The switch would be on the wall near the door so you could
switch on the light before entering the room

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Someone told you something different than what you heard.

More likely he didn't understand *anything* he was told.

Unless it was done special like I have wired some outlets, the standard
practice is that both outlets on that one doublesocket is fed together.
that is the hot side and the neutral side of both outlets are wired
together.

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.



I don't know the code for the above. However I used a cable with a red,
black, white, green. Not sure about the green, but the other 3 wires
are all # 12. The breaker with one handle is 20 amps. All wires that
will normally carry current are the same size. In any case the neutral
wire can only have 20 amps or less on it as supplied by the black or red
before the breaker trips. It will have less if both of the 120 volt
sockets are used. That is the only 120 volt receptical on the wire. It
is in parallel with a 240 volt socket.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE for
kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.



I don't know the code for the above. However I used a cable with a red,
black, white, green. Not sure about the green, but the other 3 wires
are all # 12. The breaker with one handle is 20 amps. All wires that
will normally carry current are the same size. In any case the neutral
wire can only have 20 amps or less on it as supplied by the black or red
before the breaker trips. It will have less if both of the 120 volt
sockets are used. That is the only 120 volt receptical on the wire. It
is in parallel with a 240 volt socket.

As long as the "split" and the 240 outlet are in the "shack" you are
OK.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:44:01 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:07:32 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 24 Apr 2018 06:47:28a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of
electronic limiter on a power tool so if you
over-stress it, it doesn't consume enough
current to melt the coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the
engine, you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do
have thermal overloads in them. I guess hand
tool manufacturers assume you will stop before
you burn up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have
a lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately?
o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the
plug, not the 13A standard everyone seems to use.
And no I don't have any form of circuit breaker,
earth leakage or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged
into that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a
seperate wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse
ones are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or
something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the
fuse that takes up the space, it's because they can take
13 amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need
for special circuits with different currents and
voltages, just one standard plug and socket for anything
you like, anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer,
a lamp, a hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer
into the same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but
because of the already existig proliferation of both low
and high volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the
US, it was deterined impractical. At that point in time,
there was not such a proliferation of such devices in the
UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs
the same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually
move over to the higher voltage too to simplify things.
New appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact
switched mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date
it would probably be economically unfeasible given the
millions of devices from generating stations down to single
households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or
worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a
problem with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really
care. I was only curious some physical attributes of the UK
system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old
25 hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors,
ballasts and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was
a major hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively
small number of induction motors and flourescent lights in
use, as well as clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty
litteral and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz
generators - they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters
which have only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od
the last generating stations - with some industries in New
York STILL running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006?
when the 25hz generators at the old Rankine station were
decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in
all American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new
things and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and
is not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

Typically a 240v outlet in a home will be at least 30a, maybe 40/50
hence larger gauge wire. You can have 15 or 20a 240a circuits but they
are not that common.

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

The switch is on the wall by the door to turn on the light. I have
seen those switched outlets in New Zealand but who wants to reach
behind the couch to flip the switch?
Typically we will have a ceiling light controlled by a switch by the
door and also some receptacles on a switch so you can user table lamps
that are controlled by a wall switch.
The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:24:31 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

Pretty flat for about 20 years.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=US

You'll probably find that the usage of central AC has increased,
largely offsetting the efficiencies you note.

HVAC is getting a lot more efficient tho so that will tend to null.
The thing that makes overall usage higher is the number of yankees
moving south and still wanting their house to be 70 all year long.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:10:14 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

Many places had one side of an outlet switched. It was often before
overhead lighting. The side that was switched would have a lamp plugged
into it.

Actually you have that backward. Overhead lighting was standard long
before switched receptacles became the norm. The oldest lights were
converted from gas. That is why all of the standard luminaire parts
use pipe thread sizes although they are running threads now, not
taper. I worked on a project in Sarasota where they were restoring
some old chandeliers from the 10s and 20s that did have tapered
threads in them. It made using modern parts hard so they chased the
threads with a running thread tap.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:17:54 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Geezuz Christ! Must you be lonely, you miserable endlessly prattling
Yankietard! But I'm no longer surprised after seeing several of you senile
Yanks in action here. BG

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 11:30:40 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.



I don't know the code for the above. However I used a cable with a red,
black, white, green. Not sure about the green, but the other 3 wires
are all # 12. The breaker with one handle is 20 amps. All wires that
will normally carry current are the same size. In any case the neutral
wire can only have 20 amps or less on it as supplied by the black or red
before the breaker trips. It will have less if both of the 120 volt
sockets are used. That is the only 120 volt receptical on the wire. It
is in parallel with a 240 volt socket.

+1

I see nothing wrong, IDK what K is talking about.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:25:56 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:24:31 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

Pretty flat for about 20 years.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=US

You'll probably find that the usage of central AC has increased,
largely offsetting the efficiencies you note.

HVAC is getting a lot more efficient tho so that will tend to null.
The thing that makes overall usage higher is the number of yankees
moving south and still wanting their house to be 70 all year long.

Today's AC uses about half what my old 45 year old unit used.
The circulating fan in the air handler is also about 50% more
efficient.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:23:45 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.


In that application both the outlets MUST be on the same
breaker/circuit.

Code does not allow, from memory, 2 circuits on the same device unless
the breakers are "tied" -- cannot have one circuit live and the other
off.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:07:53 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:07:32 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 24 Apr 2018 06:47:28a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of
electronic limiter on a power tool so if you
over-stress it, it doesn't consume enough
current to melt the coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the
engine, you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do
have thermal overloads in them. I guess hand
tool manufacturers assume you will stop before
you burn up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have
a lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately?
o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the
plug, not the 13A standard everyone seems to use.
And no I don't have any form of circuit breaker,
earth leakage or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged
into that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a
seperate wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse
ones are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or
something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the
fuse that takes up the space, it's because they can take
13 amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need
for special circuits with different currents and
voltages, just one standard plug and socket for anything
you like, anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer,
a lamp, a hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer
into the same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but
because of the already existig proliferation of both low
and high volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the
US, it was deterined impractical. At that point in time,
there was not such a proliferation of such devices in the
UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs
the same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually
move over to the higher voltage too to simplify things.
New appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact
switched mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date
it would probably be economically unfeasible given the
millions of devices from generating stations down to single
households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or
worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a
problem with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really
care. I was only curious some physical attributes of the UK
system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old
25 hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors,
ballasts and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was
a major hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively
small number of induction motors and flourescent lights in
use, as well as clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty
litteral and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz
generators - they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters
which have only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od
the last generating stations - with some industries in New
York STILL running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006?
when the 25hz generators at the old Rankine station were
decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in
all American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new
things and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and
is not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one,

Then both of those receptacles are switched together, on one switch.

I'll say it again, "A switch on ****EACH ONE****"

As Wayne explained, you can have one half of a receptacle always hot
and the other switched. But I'm sure you'll fail to see the usefulness
of that, because it's apparently not done in the UK.

In the UK all outlets are individually switched. And I've seen before in this group a lot of Americans wondering why you'd want to switch any outlet at all.

and I also find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

And there is an advantage to having half of one switched the other half live.

It's not an advantage over having both switched.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

More likely you didn't understand what you were told.

No, it was explained quite clearly. Four wires of different colours leading to the double socket. Earth, neutral, +120, and -120. The top socket took +120 and neutral, and the bottom socket took neutral and -120. I assume it's done like that so you tend to even out the load on the two halves of your pole transformer.

--
There are more men than women in mental hospitals - which just goes to show who's driving who crazy.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:17:54 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:44:01 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

SNIPPPP

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

So for the same power, 240 uses LIGHTER wire. (higher voltage= lower
current for same power)

Typically a 240v outlet in a home will be at least 30a, maybe 40/50
hence larger gauge wire. You can have 15 or 20a 240a circuits but they
are not that common.

For the same power, we would have 7.5 amp circuits - - - -

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Code does NOT allow them to be fed from separate circuits unless the
breaker is "tied" - in other words either an edison circuit, or a
"virtual edison" circuit with the neutrals paired at the breaker

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

The switch is on the wall by the door to turn on the light. I have
seen those switched outlets in New Zealand but who wants to reach
behind the couch to flip the switch?

Had switched outlets (the big nasty old British style) in my house in
Zambia.

MISERABLE things!!!!!

Aparently the thinking is with higher voltage you get arcing when
disconnecting the load - but nothing prevents pulling the plug or
plugging it in with the switch on - so that's kinda lame.

Also kinda stupid to use blades about 8 times as heavy as the blades
on a 15 amp 120 volt plug - the darn things are MASSIVE.

Same thing in Burkina Faso - but there you get to "pick your poison"
as there does not appear to be any "standard" - some places use French
style euro plugs, some use South African, some use british, and some
use American - and it can be 240 or 120 volts, 50 or 60 hz because
there is a lot of local private power generation.


Typically we will have a ceiling light controlled by a switch by the
door and also some receptacles on a switch so you can user table lamps
that are controlled by a wall switch.

ANd very often 3 way switches - or even 4 way - one at rach entrance
to a room. My dad used to put 4-ways in master bedrooms - one at the
door and one at each side of the bed - - -

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.


Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:49:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:23:45 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.


In that application both the outlets MUST be on the same
breaker/circuit.

Code does not allow, from memory, 2 circuits on the same device unless
the breakers are "tied" -- cannot have one circuit live and the other
off.

True and now multiwire circuits also require that the conductors be
"grouped" in the panel. (generally that means zip tied in a bundle)

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:07:24 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:49:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:23:45 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.


In that application both the outlets MUST be on the same
breaker/circuit.

Code does not allow, from memory, 2 circuits on the same device unless
the breakers are "tied" -- cannot have one circuit live and the other
off.

True and now multiwire circuits also require that the conductors be
"grouped" in the panel. (generally that means zip tied in a bundle)
Not an issue when using non metallic sheathed cable (aka ROMEX) or
metallic cable (AKA BX) - it's really only an issue when running
individual wires in conduit - not noemally done in single family
residential units outside of perhaps NYC and ChiTown.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:53:36 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:07:24 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:49:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:23:45 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.


In that application both the outlets MUST be on the same
breaker/circuit.

Code does not allow, from memory, 2 circuits on the same device unless
the breakers are "tied" -- cannot have one circuit live and the other
off.

True and now multiwire circuits also require that the conductors be
"grouped" in the panel. (generally that means zip tied in a bundle)
Not an issue when using non metallic sheathed cable (aka ROMEX) or
metallic cable (AKA BX) - it's really only an issue when running
individual wires in conduit - not noemally done in single family
residential units outside of perhaps NYC and ChiTown.

It may shock you that they actually build things other that 1&2 family
homes ;-)

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:25:56 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:24:31 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

Pretty flat for about 20 years.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?locations=US

You'll probably find that the usage of central AC has increased,
largely offsetting the efficiencies you note.

HVAC is getting a lot more efficient tho so that will tend to null.
The thing that makes overall usage higher is the number of yankees
moving south and still wanting their house to be 70 all year long.

That's what I said, "usage of central AC has increased".

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:51:34 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 17:53:36 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:07:24 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:49:52 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:23:45 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:34:33 -0400, wrote:

It is/was code in some areas. Either the room had to have permanent
lighting (e.g. ceiling lights) or at least one switched outlet. It
has to have unswitched outlets at the normal spacing, so splitting
outlets makes a lot of sense.

Still is code anywhere that uses the NEC on one of it's derivatives.


In that application both the outlets MUST be on the same
breaker/circuit.

Code does not allow, from memory, 2 circuits on the same device unless
the breakers are "tied" -- cannot have one circuit live and the other
off.

True and now multiwire circuits also require that the conductors be
"grouped" in the panel. (generally that means zip tied in a bundle)
Not an issue when using non metallic sheathed cable (aka ROMEX) or
metallic cable (AKA BX) - it's really only an issue when running
individual wires in conduit - not noemally done in single family
residential units outside of perhaps NYC and ChiTown.

It may shock you that they actually build things other that 1&2 family
homes ;-)
No shock at all - and even a lot od MURBs are built wired with cable
instead of conduit - - - -

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:17:54 +0100, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:44:01 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:07:32 +0100, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Tue 24 Apr 2018 06:47:28a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 00:33:48 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 12:59:29p, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 20:08:41 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Mon 23 Apr 2018 07:39:07a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told us...

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 15:34:12 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:11:13 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sun 22 Apr 2018 05:53:35a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 13:19:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 11:45:29a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 19:34:56 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

On Sat 21 Apr 2018 10:30:54a, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife told
us...

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:34:51 +0100, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:29:06 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife" wrote:

On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 16:13:43 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:57:48 AM UTC-5,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:50:07 +0100, Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 9:42:58 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Sat, 21 Apr 2018 12:35:25 +0100, "James
Wilkinson Sword" wrote:

How hard can it be to put some kind of
electronic limiter on a power tool so if you
over-stress it, it doesn't consume enough
current to melt the coils?

I assume something like this must be done on
electric cars, or instead of stalling the
engine, you'd wreck the motor.

Most motors that are to be used unattended do
have thermal overloads in them. I guess hand
tool manufacturers assume you will stop before
you burn up the tool

I've been on construction sites where I'd cringe
when I heard workers abusing both hand-held and
table saws. One of the things I was always
repairing/replacing were the power cords on
circular saws where some genius carpenter got it
caught in the blade. o_O

I did that with a hedge trimmer once.
--


You folks use 220vac 50hz as I recall. Did you have
a lot of sparks or did the fuse blow immediately?
o_O

[8~{} Uncle Fused Monster

The only observation I made was the trimmer stopped
running. Of course I had a proper 3A fuse in the
plug, not the 13A standard everyone seems to use.
And no I don't have any form of circuit breaker,
earth leakage or otherwise.
North american stuff doesn't have fused plugs.
We fuse the feed circuit.

But you might have a table lamp or a heater plugged
into that circuit. In the UK we fuse according to the
appliance. It also means we don't have to run a
seperate wire to every ****ing outlet.

Is that why your plugs are so damned large?

They're an easy size to get hold of. Your mickey mouse
ones are pathetic. Do you have tiny little hands or
something?

And we had them that large before fuses, it ain't the
fuse that takes up the space, it's because they can take
13 amps. Over 3 kilowatts on any device we like, no need
for special circuits with different currents and
voltages, just one standard plug and socket for anything
you like, anywhere in the house. I can plug a computer,
a lamp, a hairdryer, a vacuum cleaner, or a clothes dryer
into the same outlet.

OK, I undeand. Apparently at some point the US considred
convertng to a system similar to that in the UK, but
because of the already existig proliferation of both low
and high volage devices, wiring, sockets, and plugs in the
US, it was deterined impractical. At that point in time,
there was not such a proliferation of such devices in the
UK.

Why would it be impossible to make all your future plugs
the same, but containing a fuse? And you could gradually
move over to the higher voltage too to simplify things.
New appliances could run on the higher voltage, in fact
switched mode power supplies would run on either.


I never said it would be impossible, but at this late date
it would probably be economically unfeasible given the
millions of devices from generating stations down to single
households.
I'm also not suggesting that either system is better or
worse
than the other. What works in either country happens to work
and no one on either side of the ponnd seems to have a
problem with their own system. Personallhy, I don't really
care. I was only curious some physical attributes of the UK
system.
Back in about 1954? Ontario Hydro decommissioned the old
25 hz
system in the remainder of Ontario to switch up to 60 hz.

This required the replacement of all induction motors,
ballasts and clocks in the affected area. At that time it was
a major hassle, but not a disaster, due to the relatively
small number of induction motors and flourescent lights in
use, as well as clocks.

Can you imagine a changeover of that magnatude today?
Particularly changing operating voltage - which would require
changing anything with a transformer, a universal motor, a
light bulb, etc AS WELL as the inductionmotors and ballasts
which needed to be changed for the frequency shift???????

It would be a MAJOR disruption to ALL life in North America.

To say it wouldn't be impossible is pretting a pretty
litteral and restrictive definition to the word.


At that time they did not decommission all the 25 hz
generators - they installed HUGE rotary frequency converters
which have only now been decommissioned with the overhaul od
the last generating stations - with some industries in New
York STILL running on 25 hz up untill the conversion in 2006?
when the 25hz generators at the old Rankine station were
decommissioned.

But it isn't a sudden change in voltage. 240V is already in
all American homes. You just move stuff over as you buy new
things and use the higher voltage instead of the centre tap.
Eventually the centre tap is obsolete.


Homes would have to be rewired to handle 240 volts. When every
homeowner has to have that done, it's a major undertaking and
is not cheap to do.

You have yours, we have ours, and I think we just need to agree
to disagree.

But you already have 240V.


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.

The guage is for the current, not the voltage.

Typically a 240v outlet in a home will be at least 30a, maybe 40/50
hence larger gauge wire. You can have 15 or 20a 240a circuits but they
are not that common.

You don't need to double the current if you're doubling the voltage. Oh well, I guess you're stuck with tradition.

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

The switch is on the wall by the door to turn on the light. I have
seen those switched outlets in New Zealand but who wants to reach
behind the couch to flip the switch?
Typically we will have a ceiling light controlled by a switch by the
door and also some receptacles on a switch so you can user table lamps
that are controlled by a wall switch.

Yes, most things like a TV, you can turn off at the TV. But it's handy to have a wall outlet switch aswell, for when you want the appliance properly off.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Not sure why that would be an advantage really, apart from maybe evening out the load on the two halves of your pole transformer?

--
A lawyer is an expert on justice in much the same way your average hooker is an expert on love.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:07:57 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:17:54 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 21:44:01 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit.

Code does NOT allow them to be fed from separate circuits unless the
breaker is "tied" - in other words either an edison circuit, or a
"virtual edison" circuit with the neutrals paired at the breaker

Why can you not have seperate circuits?

Why on earth would you need to wire it up like that to have a seperate switch? I have double outlets in my house in the UK, with a single pair of wires feeding it. There's a switch on each one, and I alsdo find it odd ou don't have switches on every outlet. The UK used to have no switches on outlets, but they're all switched now.

The switch is on the wall by the door to turn on the light. I have
seen those switched outlets in New Zealand but who wants to reach
behind the couch to flip the switch?

Had switched outlets (the big nasty old British style) in my house in
Zambia.

MISERABLE things!!!!!

Aparently the thinking is with higher voltage you get arcing when
disconnecting the load - but nothing prevents pulling the plug or
plugging it in with the switch on - so that's kinda lame.

No, it means you can turn things off at the wall you don't want a pet or child to turn on by mistake.

Also kinda stupid to use blades about 8 times as heavy as the blades
on a 15 amp 120 volt plug - the darn things are MASSIVE.

Probably to stop them bending. I've got a couple of battery chargers here I bought which are American pins. I could bend one with two fingers.

Same thing in Burkina Faso - but there you get to "pick your poison"
as there does not appear to be any "standard" - some places use French
style euro plugs, some use South African, some use british, and some
use American - and it can be 240 or 120 volts, 50 or 60 hz because
there is a lot of local private power generation.

That's only the 2nd time in my entire life I've hear of Burkina Faso, the other was when I was stamp collecting as a child.

Typically we will have a ceiling light controlled by a switch by the
door and also some receptacles on a switch so you can user table lamps
that are controlled by a wall switch.

ANd very often 3 way switches - or even 4 way - one at rach entrance
to a room. My dad used to put 4-ways in master bedrooms - one at the
door and one at each side of the bed - - -

I use PIRs. There are zero light switches in my house. I walk in the room and the light comes on. The cats and parrots can activate them aswell.

The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

I'm only repeating what I've heard, that they have -120, 0, +120V to double outlets. An American told me this long ago.

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

--
Peter is currently listening to 10 minutes of laughter set to music.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:56:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea and coffee comes from a coffee maker. If
they just want a cup of hot water they throw it in the microwave.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:21:04 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 4:52:05 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:21:16 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:07:32 -0000 (UTC), Wayne Boatwright
wrote:


I'm tired of arguing over this. The 240V wiring in our houses is
prdominately for electric ranges and electric dryers. The 120V
wiring throughout the rest of our houses would not support 240V.

Yes it would. Is it not true that you have double outlets with
120V on each, where neutral to each is actually the centre tap,
and the live to each is opposite ends of the 240V? So you could
remove the neutral and make a 240V outlet right there.

No, it would not. The guage of wire for 120V outlets is lighter
weight and not meant for 240V. 240V outlets have substantially
heavier guage wire.


Wile it is true that we typically have double outlets, both outlets
are fed by a single pair wires coming into the box. There are some
exceptions where there are two pairs of wires, each connected to one
of the outlets. This is usually done so that one outlet can be
controlled by a switch and the other is not, and each is often
connected to a separate circuit. The double outlets are usually
manufactured with copper bands joining the two connecting points on
the sockets. This blows your theory right out of the water. You
obviously don't have a clue asa to how our system works, whether or
not you like the way it works.

Okay, I'm done here!!! Bye...

Thus, every houses would have to be completely rewired and either
additional or replacement power panels would have to be installed
to support 240V for the entire house, not just for the range and
dryer. It's not cheap to completely rewire a house or change out
the power panel. All outlets and switches would also have to be
replaced because they're not rated for 240V. Since I doubt that
you have any intention of moving here, it's rather a moot point.
Nuff said!

As I said before it can be a gradual process. Just like electric
cars and electric charging points, we don't change over from
petrol overnight.

I'm sick of this wilkinson idiot .

And yet you keep on reading my posts. Is this a sign of true love?

However - a small clarification.

Up here in Casnada (and I know from previous discussions on this group
) and some places in the USA an "edison circuit" is used to provide a
"split" receptacle -2 15 amp circuits on a duplex outlet using a
single 3 wire conductor. This used to be a REQUIREMENT under Canadian
code for kitchen countertop outlets.

Why on earth would that be required?

So yes, you COULD theoretically get 240 to a FEW outlets without
re-wiring totally.

Also, the insulation on all CSA approved premise wiring in Canada is
rated for a minimum 300 volts - so you COULD put 240 volt 15 amp to
every outlet and device in the house - BUT the switches and devices
would alkl need tobe changed - and to use the British style outlets
all the boxes in the wall would need to be changed because they are
not big enough to handle the brit ****.

I never said you have to make them look like ours. And I never said you'd need to change all of them at once. I used the word gradual remember?

Much simpler to do what much of the rest of the 240 volt world has
done, and adopt the north american style of wiring, adapting it to
240.

Which is?

The big thing is it would be HELLISHLY EXPENSIVE to do it, and you
would have ALL KINDS of troubles with incompatabilities - and all for
what benefit???????

The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed.

Really? Does a breaker care what the voltage is?

Even if they did, you can change a couple at a time.

They do care, because a 120V breaker only contacts one hot.
A 240V breaker contacts two hots and takes two slots in the panel
So, you're going to run out of free breaker slots and need
a new panel. All that expense to solve a problem that only
you think exists.

You must have some weird breakers. Ours make contact with live (er hot) and neutral (dunno what you call that) so they can tell if some as leaked to ground.

Now if you only have the ****ty breakers without ground fault protection, you'd have two per dual-socket, as they're +120 and -120. So replace that with a dual line 240V breaker.

So much easier in the UK without two lives (er hots) to worry about. One line is zero volts, only one wire can give you a shock. We don't have to worry about isolating two lines.

The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Switches will work way above their voltage rating if you're not drawing maximum current. I've used a 12VDC switch rated at 10 amps to control a 240V light at 1 amp.

Ain't that special? The village idiot that's bitching because he thinks
we should have a fuse in every plug for safety, now says it's OK to
use equipment beyond it's rating.

It isn't beyond its rating. The current is one tenth of the rating.

Virtually NO benefit.

People who litter their posts with capitals and exclamation marks have OCD!

Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

At half the current, they are half as thick. I dread to think what your Hoover wires are like.

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

And magically you'd inherit all those?

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Actually I have a couple of adapters on the desk to my left. They will take any plug from USA, Australia, China, EU or the UK, and some others, I think the total was 8 completely different types. They just have some odd shaped holes which are a combination of all the different prong positions. Very handy as I can buy cheap stuff off Ebay from abroad and just plug it straight in.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Please disable your capslock key.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

But there are more things in use that draw power. Think back to when you were a child and had a single lightbulb and a TV set in the room.

The big loads:

Ovens
Range
Stove
Dryer
Central AC
Water heater

They are all 240V and with the exception of the dryer and stove
are direct wired on their own circuits. The dryer and stove have
their own dedicated 30 0r 40A receptacle where they are located.
And where they stay. Unlike the UK, where apparently you move those
around to various other rooms in the house. Go figure.

We don't need AC over here. Oven and range is the same thing, we have something we call a "cooker", which has 4 hobs on top and two ovens inside with a grill. That and the water heater are indeed stationary like yours. But everything else can be moved. Washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, all using 3kW. I don't have to rewire my house to shift a couple of kitchen appliances.

The ONLY things not taking less power are resistance heating devices
(which are often being replaced with more power efficient devices such
as microwave ovens and induction stove-tops which consume
significantly less power) - and if they are of any size (ovens,
ranges, driers, or central heating devices) they are ALREADY using 240
volts.

And that's about right. Sure we have more devices like tablets, smartphones,
LCD TVs. But they use little power. The reduction with more energy
efficient AC, lighting, TV, furnace blowers, etc has more than offset
the increase in number of appliances.

You can't make heating more efficient. We heat with natural gas, which is a fraction of the cost of electricity. It's stupid to change that to resistive heating. A few change it to heat pumps, but then that's using electricity where none was used before.

My computer uses way more power than it did 15 years ago.

TVs may be more efficient, but we have more of them.

My lighting uses less power, but I just added more lights, so it's nice and bright like a sunny day in here.

--
5 Brits were injured last year in accidents involving out of control Scalextric cars.

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 12:16:25 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:



The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed.

Really? Does a breaker care what the voltage is?

Even if they did, you can change a couple at a time.

They do care, because a 120V breaker only contacts one hot.
A 240V breaker contacts two hots and takes two slots in the panel
So, you're going to run out of free breaker slots and need
a new panel. All that expense to solve a problem that only
you think exists.

You must have some weird breakers. Ours make contact with live (er hot) and neutral (dunno what you call that) so they can tell if some as leaked to ground.

Different weird. And one of your fundamental problems is that you
can't understand anything that is different.



Now if you only have the ****ty breakers without ground fault protection, you'd have two per dual-socket, as they're +120 and -120. So replace that with a dual line 240V breaker.

Just how stupid and uneducable are you? It's been clearly explained to you
several times here that while we have double receptacles all over the
house, relatively few are wired as Edison circuits, shared neutral,
which is what you're describing above My house for example has NONE
wired that way.






So much easier in the UK without two lives (er hots) to worry about. One line is zero volts, only one wire can give you a shock. We don't have to worry about isolating two lines.

And that's how all the receptacles, all the lights in my house and most
houses are wired, one hot, one neutral. The shared neutral arrangement
is found here occasionally, it's a small percentage of all circuits.






The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Switches will work way above their voltage rating if you're not drawing maximum current. I've used a 12VDC switch rated at 10 amps to control a 240V light at 1 amp.

Ain't that special? The village idiot that's bitching because he thinks
we should have a fuse in every plug for safety, now says it's OK to
use equipment beyond it's rating.

It isn't beyond its rating. The current is one tenth of the rating.

Beyond the VOLTAGE rating, idiot.





Virtually NO benefit.

People who litter their posts with capitals and exclamation marks have OCD!

Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

At half the current, they are half as thick. I dread to think what your Hoover wires are like.

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

And magically you'd inherit all those?

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Actually I have a couple of adapters on the desk to my left. They will take any plug from USA, Australia, China, EU or the UK, and some others, I think the total was 8 completely different types. They just have some odd shaped holes which are a combination of all the different prong positions.. Very handy as I can buy cheap stuff off Ebay from abroad and just plug it straight in.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Please disable your capslock key.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

But there are more things in use that draw power. Think back to when you were a child and had a single lightbulb and a TV set in the room.

The big loads:

Ovens
Range
Stove
Dryer
Central AC
Water heater

They are all 240V and with the exception of the dryer and stove
are direct wired on their own circuits. The dryer and stove have
their own dedicated 30 0r 40A receptacle where they are located.
And where they stay. Unlike the UK, where apparently you move those
around to various other rooms in the house. Go figure.

We don't need AC over here.

Your opinion. But then you're a cheapskate. Obviously other people do
have AC in the UK and I've stayed in places in the UK that had AC,
thank God.


Oven and range is the same thing,

Now they are not, at least not here. An oven is just that, an oven.
I have double wall ovens and a separate cooktop. A range is a stove
that combines an oven and cooktop.





we have something we call a "cooker", which has 4 hobs on top and two ovens inside with a grill. That and the water heater are indeed stationary like yours. But everything else can be moved. Washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, all using 3kW. I don't have to rewire my house to shift a couple of kitchen appliances.

I don't have to either. I can move my coffee grinder, kettle, microwave
and plug it into other receptacles in my kitchen. I have no need to move
my disposal or dishwasher. And if I did, it would be part of a kitchen
renovation which is involved and moving a circuit is no big deal. The
disposal, dishwasher are on their own circuits behind/under the counters.
Good grief, this is beyond stupid. Even the fridge, if you moved it,
you need a new receptacle, we don't just put extension cords on them
and plug them into a counter receptacle. Same thing with the washing
machine and dryer, we don't need to bring them into our living rooms.
Capiche? No, of course not.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:48:20 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding Yankietard, driveled again:

FLUSH all of the senile idiot's inevitable idiotic drivel

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:14:47 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:


Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea

....but you obviously suck a LOT of troll cock! BG