On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

--
President Bush was in South Dakota recently. There was an awkward moment at Mount Rushmore when President Bush said, "Hey, look, it's those guys on the money!"
- Conan Obrien

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 17:14:47 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:56:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea and coffee comes from a coffee maker.

Don't you cook anything in boiling water? Are you really a third world country?

If they just want a cup of hot water they throw it in the microwave.

Which takes ages to heat anything, the output is roughly only one kilowatt.

--
Heard on a public transportation vehicle while in Orlando:
"When you exit this vehicle, please be sure to lower your head and watch your step."
"If you fail to do so, please lower your voice and watch your language."

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 13:36:03 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

ALL the poor troll has is your senile gob around his cock, senile
cocksucker!

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 17:48:20 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 12:16:25 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:

The main distribution panel would have to be changed in EVERY house.
Every breaker would need to be changed.

Really? Does a breaker care what the voltage is?

Even if they did, you can change a couple at a time.

They do care, because a 120V breaker only contacts one hot.
A 240V breaker contacts two hots and takes two slots in the panel
So, you're going to run out of free breaker slots and need
a new panel. All that expense to solve a problem that only
you think exists.

You must have some weird breakers. Ours make contact with live (er hot) and neutral (dunno what you call that) so they can tell if some as leaked to ground.

Different weird. And one of your fundamental problems is that you
can't understand anything that is different.

Your breakers have to cope with two lives, ours don't. Why make things so complicated? Why don't you just have one breaker per side? 120V and neutral?

Now if you only have the ****ty breakers without ground fault protection, you'd have two per dual-socket, as they're +120 and -120. So replace that with a dual line 240V breaker.

Just how stupid and uneducable are you? It's been clearly explained to you
several times here that while we have double receptacles all over the
house, relatively few are wired as Edison circuits, shared neutral,
which is what you're describing above My house for example has NONE
wired that way.

Not my fault you have such a dodgy wiring system.

So much easier in the UK without two lives (er hots) to worry about. One line is zero volts, only one wire can give you a shock. We don't have to worry about isolating two lines.

And that's how all the receptacles, all the lights in my house and most
houses are wired, one hot, one neutral. The shared neutral arrangement
is found here occasionally, it's a small percentage of all circuits.

The light switches may or may
not require changing (some are rated for 277 volts as used for
lighting in some industrial/commercial 3 phase environments)

Switches will work way above their voltage rating if you're not drawing maximum current. I've used a 12VDC switch rated at 10 amps to control a 240V light at 1 amp.

Ain't that special? The village idiot that's bitching because he thinks
we should have a fuse in every plug for safety, now says it's OK to
use equipment beyond it's rating.

It isn't beyond its rating. The current is one tenth of the rating.

Beyond the VOLTAGE rating, idiot.

And since the current is so low, that makes up for it. Learn about arcing.

Virtually NO benefit.

People who litter their posts with capitals and exclamation marks have OCD!

Your power cords for light duty appliances and
lamps are not going to be smaller than awg18 (about 5.5 or 6mm
diameter jacket for 3 wire (grounded) cords)

At half the current, they are half as thick. I dread to think what your Hoover wires are like.

In industrial/commercial use where advantages exist, higher voltage is
already used for "fixed assetts".

Not to mention there are WAY MORE variations of 240 volt plugs used
world wide than 120.

And magically you'd inherit all those?

How many different plug adaptors do you need to connect a device to
the mains just within the EEC??? At LEAST 5.

Actually I have a couple of adapters on the desk to my left. They will take any plug from USA, Australia, China, EU or the UK, and some others, I think the total was 8 completely different types. They just have some odd shaped holes which are a combination of all the different prong positions. Very handy as I can buy cheap stuff off Ebay from abroad and just plug it straight in.

Word wide there are AT LEAST 20 incompatible versions of the 240 volt
power plug rated at under 17 amps.

EVERY 15 amp 120 volt outlet whether in North America, Japan, or
wherever, is FULLY COMPATIBLE, and will even fit into a 20amp outlet!!

The transmission losses will not change appreciably as the
distribution voltage would not change.

There is just NO CASE TO BE MADE for converting to 240 volts -
particularly with the power consumption of virtually EVERYTHING going
down instead of up.

Please disable your capslock key.

Instead of 100 watt lamps, we are now getting as much or more light
from 17 watts. Solid state flat screen video displays and TVs are
using 1/4 (or less) the power the older versions used.

But there are more things in use that draw power. Think back to when you were a child and had a single lightbulb and a TV set in the room.

The big loads:

Ovens
Range
Stove
Dryer
Central AC
Water heater

They are all 240V and with the exception of the dryer and stove
are direct wired on their own circuits. The dryer and stove have
their own dedicated 30 0r 40A receptacle where they are located.
And where they stay. Unlike the UK, where apparently you move those
around to various other rooms in the house. Go figure.

We don't need AC over here.

Your opinion. But then you're a cheapskate. Obviously other people do
have AC in the UK and I've stayed in places in the UK that had AC,
thank God.

No, virtually nobody has it, as it rarely gets over 20C outside.

Oven and range is the same thing,

Now they are not, at least not here. An oven is just that, an oven.
I have double wall ovens and a separate cooktop. A range is a stove
that combines an oven and cooktop.

Almost all ours have both together.

we have something we call a "cooker", which has 4 hobs on top and two ovens inside with a grill. That and the water heater are indeed stationary like yours. But everything else can be moved. Washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, all using 3kW. I don't have to rewire my house to shift a couple of kitchen appliances.

I don't have to either. I can move my coffee grinder, kettle, microwave
and plug it into other receptacles in my kitchen. I have no need to move
my disposal or dishwasher. And if I did, it would be part of a kitchen
renovation which is involved and moving a circuit is no big deal.

And I don't have to rewire, I just move the appliance and plug it in somewhere else, because the UK has a clue how to make sockets available for anything.

The disposal,

Why do Americans have those? Why do you put food down your drain? Don't you have something called a bin?

dishwasher are on their own circuits behind/under the counters.
Good grief, this is beyond stupid. Even the fridge, if you moved it,
you need a new receptacle,

There are sockets everywhere, I plug it in whatever is closest, 5 minutes of manually shifting the appliance and plugging it into whatever socket is closest.

we don't just put extension cords on them
and plug them into a counter receptacle. Same thing with the washing
machine and dryer, we don't need to bring them into our living rooms.
Capiche? No, of course not.

Who said living room? Stop making up **** to help your waning point.

--
A hammer is a device designed to break valuable objects next to the nail you are aiming at.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:52:07 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 17:14:47 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:56:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea and coffee comes from a coffee maker.

Don't you cook anything in boiling water? Are you really a third world country?

If they just want a cup of hot water they throw it in the microwave.

Which takes ages to heat anything, the output is roughly only one kilowatt.

a couple minutes is not ages.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:46:07 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:


Which takes ages to heat anything, the output is roughly only one kilowatt.

a couple minutes is not ages.

Isn't it, driveling troll-loving idiot? G

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 12:47:17 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about, *again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 4:46:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:52:07 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 17:14:47 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:56:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea and coffee comes from a coffee maker.

Don't you cook anything in boiling water? Are you really a third world country?

If they just want a cup of hot water they throw it in the microwave.

Which takes ages to heat anything, the output is roughly only one kilowatt.

a couple minutes is not ages.

Especially when most times you have other things you can be doing
in the meantime. IK guess JWS can't multitask, he just sits there
waiting for his kettle, can't do anything else, one small step at
at time. He could fire up that 2200 watt 9" angle grinder he keeps
harping about and cut up some steak or polish his nails while waiting.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

--
You are The One. But not The One. The One who is not The One, but is Another One. But you are that One who is The One who is The Other One who is, in fact, The One. All is lost.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Or, worse, harmonics.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 13:36:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

Not true.

On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 22:09:00 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.
Then you better move to England or somewhere else that does not use a
center tapped power supply, because your whole house is fed by a large
edison circuit, and a single loose neutral throws the whole house
system off-kilter.

You are going after the wrong boogey-man

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase. Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:40:25 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 13:36:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

Not true.

Show me

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:24:42 -0400, , the mentally

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that
an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no
neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true.

He can't be bothered, you troll-feeding idiot! ALL he bothers about is
whether you senile Yankietards will KEEP sucking him off or not! It's true!
LOL

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:33:40 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding Yankietard, driveled again:

Why are you so obsessed with code?

He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about, *again*,

He doesn't care, tardo_4! ALL he cares about is whether you will take all
his baits or not! Gee ...just HOW senile are you? LOL

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:39:22 -0400, , the brain-damaged,
troll-feeding cretin, blabbered again:

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Or, worse, harmonics.

You just CAN'T resist the retard's silly baits, eh, senile Yankietard? Goes
to show how advanced your senility must be!

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:46:08 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.

Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:00:20 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 4:46:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:52:07 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 17:14:47 +0100, wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:56:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

That is really a Canadian thing. They like having two 120v circuits on
one yoke in the kitchen. It is not that common in the US.

Really handy to be able to run the toaster and the coffeemaker or
kettle side by side without running cords across the contertop - and
without tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse - - -

But American kettles are only a few hundred watts :-)
And most of them still use the ****ing stove to heat water.

Most Americans would ask, what's a kettle?

We don't drink that much tea and coffee comes from a coffee maker.

Don't you cook anything in boiling water? Are you really a third world country?

If they just want a cup of hot water they throw it in the microwave.

Which takes ages to heat anything, the output is roughly only one kilowatt.

a couple minutes is not ages.

Especially when most times you have other things you can be doing
in the meantime. IK guess JWS can't multitask, he just sits there
waiting for his kettle, can't do anything else, one small step at
at time. He could fire up that 2200 watt 9" angle grinder he keeps
harping about and cut up some steak or polish his nails while waiting.

I want to have a drink when I'm thirsty, not later on. That's why I never go to restaurants, why the **** does anyone want to wait half an hour to be fed? Why do you think McDonalds took off?

--
Experience is what you got by not having it when you need it.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:24:42 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase.

That can't be right. Just thinking about it simply - the current leads or lags the voltage with different types of load. So the centre point (neutral) has to have current going in different directions at different times.

Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

--
Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:13:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:24:42 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase.

That can't be right. Just thinking about it simply - the current leads or lags the voltage with different types of load. So the centre point (neutral) has to have current going in different directions at different times.

I used to say that too but it does not seem to be an issue.

Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:58:15 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:


Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

NOTHING makes him happier than a mentally challenged cretin like you sucking
him off! BG

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:34:07 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed


I would take that to mean "different systems", eg low voltage signaling
in the same box as 120V plus. Not different circuits of the same system.
That is where they specify a divider if you're using the same box.
An Edison circuit is actually the same branch circuit, at least I'd
consider it to be one circuit.




Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole b...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:55:25 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

The first version of the NEC came out in 1898 in New York City.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:28:40 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:55:25 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

The first version of the NEC came out in 1898 in New York City.


And I own a copy of the "american electrician's handbook" by terrell
Croft first printed in 1913 and reprinted in 2014 by McGraw-Hill Book
Co in New Yoirk - passed down through the family

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:58:15 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:13:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:24:42 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase.

That can't be right. Just thinking about it simply - the current leads or lags the voltage with different types of load. So the centre point (neutral) has to have current going in different directions at different times.

I used to say that too but it does not seem to be an issue.

No it isn't. It won't exceed 20 amps. But it might not be zero.

Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

--
Confucius say: "Man who lives in glass house should change in basement."

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:28:40 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:58:15 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:13:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:24:42 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase.

That can't be right. Just thinking about it simply - the current leads or lags the voltage with different types of load. So the centre point (neutral) has to have current going in different directions at different times.

I used to say that too but it does not seem to be an issue.

No it isn't. It won't exceed 20 amps. But it might not be zero.

Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.

In article ,
says...
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.



Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some junk from Europe that used 380 V 3 phase. They even
reversed the safety color code on the main disconnects. To the US it
was green for power on, and red for power off. Their junk was green --
power off--safe to open the door to the electrical box. Red was power
on-- not safe to open the door.

Once the color code for danger (off/on) is changed there might as well
not be one. Probably safer if not used.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:03:01 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:


Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.

So for HOW long are you STILL going to suck the troll's cock, you senile
lonely moron? Until you feel less lonely? BG

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:03 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

The strangest panel for the uninitiated is 3 p corner grounded delta.
It will look exactly like single phase 120/240 (2 pole breakers, 2
hots and a white grounded conductor) except there will be 240 to
ground and you will have 240v 3 phase equipment hanging off of it.
The first time I saw it I took a minute to figure out what I was
looking at.
The only place you will see it is where there are pretty much all 3
phase loads and maybe some 240v L/L load.

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 11:05:39 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.



Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some...


It may have been 4160 which is one of the distribution high voltages I worked with in industrial and island power systems. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Zapped Monster