In article ,
says...

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some...


It may have been 4160 which is one of the distribution high voltages I worked with in industrial and island power systems. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Zapped Monster



That sounds right to me. We had all kinds of voltages in that plant and
I never did memorize some of them as I seldom worked on them.

Mainly worked daily with the 480, 120 aC, and some low voltage 24
volt/20 ma DC instrument loops. It really was important to pay
attention as to what wires you were on as sometimes all that and some
thermocouple wires could all be in the same cabinet inches apart.

Then I came across a couple of 208/120 Volt 3 phase type circuits.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:05:30 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.



Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some junk from Europe that used 380 V 3 phase. They even
reversed the safety color code on the main disconnects. To the US it
was green for power on, and red for power off. Their junk was green --
power off--safe to open the door to the electrical box. Red was power
on-- not safe to open the door.

Once the color code for danger (off/on) is changed there might as well
not be one. Probably safer if not used.

The Limeys "open" a switch to turn something on too - and "close" it
so shut something off - - - -

In Canada installing the equipment with the switches mislabelled that
way would be illegal - it would not get the "special inspection" tag
without correction and would most definitely not get a VALID UL or CSA
tag.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:25:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:03 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

The strangest panel for the uninitiated is 3 p corner grounded delta.
It will look exactly like single phase 120/240 (2 pole breakers, 2
hots and a white grounded conductor) except there will be 240 to
ground and you will have 240v 3 phase equipment hanging off of it.
The first time I saw it I took a minute to figure out what I was
looking at.
The only place you will see it is where there are pretty much all 3
phase loads and maybe some 240v L/L load.


600 volt 3 phase delta (no neutral) is also pretty common.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:15:16 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:25:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:03 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

The strangest panel for the uninitiated is 3 p corner grounded delta.
It will look exactly like single phase 120/240 (2 pole breakers, 2
hots and a white grounded conductor) except there will be 240 to
ground and you will have 240v 3 phase equipment hanging off of it.
The first time I saw it I took a minute to figure out what I was
looking at.
The only place you will see it is where there are pretty much all 3
phase loads and maybe some 240v L/L load.


600 volt 3 phase delta (no neutral) is also pretty common.

Also the old "wild leg delta" where one phase is center tapped to
give a standard single phase service for "office" use while providing
208 3 phase for "shop" loads.

AKA 3 phase 4 wire delta. Not common any more but was VERY common
years ago. Only 2 of the phase to neutral connections could be used
because the third "wild" or "high" leg was somewhere around 208.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:01:59 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:15:16 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:25:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:03 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

The strangest panel for the uninitiated is 3 p corner grounded delta.
It will look exactly like single phase 120/240 (2 pole breakers, 2
hots and a white grounded conductor) except there will be 240 to
ground and you will have 240v 3 phase equipment hanging off of it.
The first time I saw it I took a minute to figure out what I was
looking at.
The only place you will see it is where there are pretty much all 3
phase loads and maybe some 240v L/L load.


600 volt 3 phase delta (no neutral) is also pretty common.

Also the old "wild leg delta" where one phase is center tapped to
give a standard single phase service for "office" use while providing
208 3 phase for "shop" loads.

AKA 3 phase 4 wire delta. Not common any more but was VERY common
years ago. Only 2 of the phase to neutral connections could be used
because the third "wild" or "high" leg was somewhere around 208.

Center tapped Delta is far from unusual here. It has the advantage of
supplying the full 240v on the line to line loads instead of 208. You
just look for 2 transformers on a pole and one usually larger than the
other.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

The larger one supplies the 120/240 load.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:21:45 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:01:59 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:15:16 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:25:57 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:03 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 04/30/2018 10:05 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

We leased an old bakery where the freight elevator was 550. After 40
years of home repairs the 550 showed up in the damnedest places. I never
made any assumptions about what I'd find when I opened a panel.

The strangest panel for the uninitiated is 3 p corner grounded delta.
It will look exactly like single phase 120/240 (2 pole breakers, 2
hots and a white grounded conductor) except there will be 240 to
ground and you will have 240v 3 phase equipment hanging off of it.
The first time I saw it I took a minute to figure out what I was
looking at.
The only place you will see it is where there are pretty much all 3
phase loads and maybe some 240v L/L load.


600 volt 3 phase delta (no neutral) is also pretty common.

Also the old "wild leg delta" where one phase is center tapped to
give a standard single phase service for "office" use while providing
208 3 phase for "shop" loads.

AKA 3 phase 4 wire delta. Not common any more but was VERY common
years ago. Only 2 of the phase to neutral connections could be used
because the third "wild" or "high" leg was somewhere around 208.

Center tapped Delta is far from unusual here. It has the advantage of
supplying the full 240v on the line to line loads instead of 208. You
just look for 2 transformers on a pole and one usually larger than the
other.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

The larger one supplies the 120/240 load.
Still common here on "existing" installs. but rather uncommon on new
builds = around here.

More common to hav e "lighting" or "pffice" transformer running off
one phase with primnary voltage to match the 3 phase, with center
tapped 240 secondary for the 120/240 loads.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 03:56:21 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

I never said they overload the neutral, I just refuted that there would be ZERO neutral current with two loads plugged in.

--
Two Muslims have crashed a speedboat into the Thames barrier in London.
Police think it might be the start of Ram-a-dam.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 01:33:40 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 12:47:17 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about, *again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Again, you capitalised "MEET CODE". Who gives a **** about code? It's your house, you do as you wish in it.

--
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

--
Bad command or file name! Go stand in the corner.

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:34:02 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

So much simpler to wire up a single voltage system....

--
It said, "Insert disk #3," but only two will fit!

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:55:25 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

Back when people just got on with life and didn't waste their time adhering to rules. Think how efficient everything would be if people spent 100% of their time doing things instead of making things adhere to rules.

--
A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an exceedingly long roll out after touching down.
San Jose Tower Noted: "American 751, make a hard right turn at the end of the runway, if you are able.
If you are not able, take the Guadalupe exit off Highway 101, make a right at the lights, and return to the airport."

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:28:40 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:55:25 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

The first version of the NEC came out in 1898 in New York City.

That's because America invented the lawyer. The world's been ****ed ever since.

--
BREAKFAST.SYS halted... Cereal port not responding.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v and you only
have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:39:48 AM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 01:33:40 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 12:47:17 PM UTC-4, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about, *again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Again, you capitalised "MEET CODE". Who gives a **** about code? It's your house, you do as you wish in it.

--


You know, that guy Peeler is right. You are a total waste of time and a
troll. YOU made all kinds of ridiculous claims here, including that
somehow an Edison circuit neutral can have a neutral that becomes
overloaded. Part of how we show that your claims are BS is by citing
CODE.

Further, I had to pull a wheel off my SUV the other day. Just for grins
and to prove what a **** head you are, I looked at the electric impact
wrench I have. It's 50+ years old, heavy duty, made by Ingersol-Rand
in America. It plugs into any 15A circuit, I ran it off a long extension
cord. The spec label on that impact wrench says 4 AMPS. So it's ~500 watts.
There is an example why there is no problem using hand held power tools
here.

No run along and go **** yourself, I will no longer be responding to
anything you post here.

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v and you only
have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Just give up on him. I'm done engaging with him, let all his questions
go unanswered. He's a troll. Enough is enough. When he actually has
a legitimate question, let him get answers from some idiot troll like
him.

On 05/01/2018 06:23 AM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:28:40 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:55:25 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:20:44 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:34:02 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:54:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 08:43:33 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:


Previous to 1974 in Canada. Had pullouts in my old fuse panel -
house built in 1974. Helped my dad wire houses in the sixties and
thry
were all paired then too. That was for not only single yoke but any
time the 2 circuits existed in the same box (lighting switch on one
circuit and recepotacle on the other in a ganged box, as an
example -
or two lighting switches on different circuits)

How do you "pair" fuses for general lighting circuits. They are
usually screw in plug fuses. That is why the code did not require it.
Fromwhat I remember, Canadian code required separation of the
circuits UNLESS the fuses were "ganged".

In MOST cases the circuits could be easily separated, not having 2
lseparate live feeds in a single box. In situations where that was not
possible or feasible, the "ganged" fuses were required.
In actual real-world situations, it was not common to run into the
situation.

My house had a "stove block" a "drier block" plus 4 ganged fuse
pullouts - 2 for kitchen outlets, one for the AC and one for another
"edison circuit" The fuse and drier blocks had cartridge fuses - the
rest were plug fuses.

Back in the 1969 code book - section 12-296 is states "conductors of
different systems shall not be installed in the same box,, cabinet, or
auxilliary gutter unless:

1 a barier of sheet steel not less than 0.0528 inch (16msg) or ane
equivalent device of acceptable insulation material is used to devide
the space into separate compartments for the conductors of each system
- - - - - . Therer are exceptions listed

Also, in14-032
In branch circuits derived from a 3 wire grounded neutral systen
(Edison circuit) 2 single pole manually operable circuit breakers may
be used in lieu of a 2 pole breaker, providing that:
1) their handles are so interlocked that all ungrounded conductors
will be opened by the manual operation of either handle; AND
2) each breaker has voltage ratings not less than that of the 3 wire
grounded system

So the linked breaker was required by (at least Canadian) code as
early as 1969 for Edison circuits, and separate "systems" (read that
as circuits) were not allowed in the same box.. I could look it up in
1966 code too if I could find my book. My '69 book was close at hand.

"Different systems" does not apply, that refers to separately derived
systems or services with different voltage characteristics.
I am not quite sure how they could have specified "breakers" in 1969
since fuses were still pretty popular. The NEC had no such
requirement.
I agree if breakers were present, you might make that stick but
multiwire circuits predate the first breakers by decades.


They also pre-date "standards"

The first version of the NEC came out in 1898 in New York City.

That's because America invented the lawyer. The world's been ****ed
ever since.


Right. Shakespeare was prescient and knew we'd get around to it some day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blackstone

"William Searle Holdsworth, one of Blackstone's successors as Vinerian
Professor, argued that "If the Commentaries had not been written when
they were written, I think it very doubtful that [the United States],
and other English speaking countries would have so universally adopted
the common law."

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:03:01 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:28:40 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:58:15 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:13:59 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:24:42 +0100, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 02:01:15 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 18:36:03 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 17:47:11 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:09:28 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:30:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I do have a couple of sockets wired so each outlet of the double outlet
are connected to each side of a 240 volt line. The reason is it is next
to a 240 volt socket that feeds that 120 volt one. I did that for my
ham radio station so I can run an amplifier on 240 volts. I also have a
120 volt amplifier that draws lots of current so when using it, I have
heaver wire. That is one place where your system of everything on a 240
volt line would have been handy.

That (Edison circuit) isn't cricket. You can't guarantee the neutral
current is within spec. I have 220V outlets wired with normal 12/2
(with white wire painted red) but a shared neutral between two 120V
circuits on opposite legs of the 240V isn't legit.

Dmned right it is. It's not only legal, it was REQUIRED BY CODE

Why are you so obsessed with code?

for kitchen countertop outlets in Canada for over 20 years. The last code
revision is now requiring 20 amp countertop outlets instead of the
"split" 15s.
No reason I see that isn't just as sound as any other Edison circuit,
as long as the breaker is sized for the conductors. If he has 12 gauge
wiring, with a 20 amp double breaker, the neutral current will not
exceed 20 amps.

and if there is 20 amps on each side, there is NO neutral current.

Unless you have inductive and capacitive loads....

Triplin harmonics really just affect 3 phase but maybe that is what
you have there.

I can't be bothered doing the calculations, but are you telling me that an inductive load in series with a resistive load will produce no neutral current in the middle?

You can bother yourself if you want but it is true. Triplin harmonics
in 3 phase are a problem but we do not see it in single phase.

That can't be right. Just thinking about it simply - the current leads or lags the voltage with different types of load. So the centre point (neutral) has to have current going in different directions at different times.

I used to say that too but it does not seem to be an issue.

No it isn't. It won't exceed 20 amps. But it might not be zero.

Even in
3 phase it takes a fairly specific load to cause the problem. A
building full of solid state fluorescent ballasts seem to be the worst
if they are not PF corrected. Most commercial grade are these days,
just for that reason.
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run computers and lights.

--
110 people once tied for second prize in the Powerball Lottery after playing the same lucky numbers from a fortune cookie.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:05:30 +0100, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article ,
says...
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.



Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some junk from Europe that used 380 V 3 phase. They even
reversed the safety color code on the main disconnects. To the US it
was green for power on, and red for power off. Their junk was green --
power off--safe to open the door to the electrical box. Red was power
on-- not safe to open the door.

Once the color code for danger (off/on) is changed there might as well
not be one. Probably safer if not used.

Isn't red an international colour for danger?

--
An actor works all his life to gain recognition.
He makes guest appearances, spends a lot for publicity people and agents etc.
Then, when he finally becomes well known, he complains he cannot go out in public anymore.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 21:11:05 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:05:30 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Commercial lighting should make you happy though since it is usually
277 volts.

Why 277?!

One phase of a 480wye.

Why do they use 480?

Same reason you are pimping for 220. It allows smaller conductors for
a given amount of delivered power. 480 is common for services to large
installations like office buildings and gets distributed to each floor
as 480 where a transformer will take that down to 120/240 or 120/208.
The house lighting will usually be 277 using one 480v phase to
neutral.



Most places that have equipment that uses lots of power in the US will
have 480 volt 3 phase equipment such as motors. The lights are most
often 277 volts single phase as that is the neutral to one hot leg of
the 480 volt 3 phase circuit.

Really big users will have even higher voltages. The plant I worked for
had a power room where the power from the electric company was converted
from whatever they sent us to 13,200 volts. This was sent to other
parts of the plant where it was mostly conveted to 480 V 3 P. There was
some equipment that used around 4,000 volts. I did not usually work
with that and don't recall the exect voltage, want to say 4100 volts.

Then we got is some junk from Europe that used 380 V 3 phase. They even
reversed the safety color code on the main disconnects. To the US it
was green for power on, and red for power off. Their junk was green --
power off--safe to open the door to the electrical box. Red was power
on-- not safe to open the door.

Once the color code for danger (off/on) is changed there might as well
not be one. Probably safer if not used.

The Limeys "open" a switch to turn something on too - and "close" it
so shut something off - - - -

No we don't. An open switch is a switch where the contacts are open - not touching, therefore off. We do open a tap to turn on water, but I assume you do that too.

What I find irritating is that a gas stove has controls which increase as you turn anticlockwise, but an electric stove you turn clockwise. You'd think when they invented electricity that volume controls etc would have been made the same way round as taps. Anticlockwise for more of it.

In Canada installing the equipment with the switches mislabelled that
way would be illegal - it would not get the "special inspection" tag
without correction and would most definitely not get a VALID UL or CSA
tag.

--
gods don't smite people anymore because people of many different religions now living in the same town.
No god wants to accidentally smite the wrong person and get sued by another god.
-- David James

On Tue, 1 May 2018 10:53:21 -0600, lowbrowman, the endlessly driveling
senile idiot, blabbered again:

That's because America invented the lawyer. The world's been ****ed
ever since.


Right. Shakespeare was prescient and knew we'd get around to it some day.

I'm prescient too, lowbrowman. I predict that you will be sucking that gay
Scottish ******'s unwashed cock until you croak!

On Tue, 01 May 2018 10:41:19 -0400, , the mentally
challenged, notorious, troll-feeding retard, blabbered again:

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v and you only
have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

The one who keeps taking every single idiotic bait he sets out, Yankietard?
BG

In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.




Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 15:41:19 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v

If you happen to evenly spread the load.

and you only have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Actually my mains voltage is 245. The UK used to be 250 and is now 240 (ish). 220 is for places like France.

--
Got myself a new Jack Russell puppy, he's mainly black and brown with a small white patch, so I've named him England.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 15:56:41 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:41:42 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v and you only
have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Just give up on him. I'm done engaging with him, let all his questions
go unanswered. He's a troll. Enough is enough. When he actually has
a legitimate question, let him get answers from some idiot troll like
him.

Then use a killfile and stop reading my posts. Jesus Christ how stupid are you?!

--
Men wake up as good-looking as they went to bed.
Women somehow deteriorate during the night.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:21:33 +0100, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.




Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

Much simpler in the UK, most houses have one of the three phases and the neutral. If I wanted three phase, the connection required is just outside my property. I'd just need to link to the two phases for my two next door neighbours.

--
You can lead a man to Congress . . .
.. . . but you can't make him think.

On 01/05/2018 19:25, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 15:41:19 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE.* The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire.* There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

* Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential
mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you
won't find one in my house.* Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another* issue is that some
homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future.* But the point
here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and
that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a
namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v

If you happen to evenly spread the load.

and you only have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Actually my mains voltage is 245.* The UK used to be 250 and is now 240
(ish).* 220 is for places like France.

Just as it was in 1960, the supply voltage to domestic properties in the
UK is still nominally 240 V AC at 50 Hz, although the declared voltage
in the UK is now 230V AC +10% to -6%. Historically the domestic voltage
was 240 V +/-6% (and 415V 3phase), whilst continental Europe was 220V
(380V 3 phase).

Environmental Technology Centre | Voltage Optimisation
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/etc/gui...timisation.php
--
Bod

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:38:31 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 01/05/2018 19:25, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 15:41:19 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential
mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you
won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some
homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point
here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and
that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a
namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v

If you happen to evenly spread the load.

and you only have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Actually my mains voltage is 245. The UK used to be 250 and is now 240
(ish). 220 is for places like France.

Just as it was in 1960, the supply voltage to domestic properties in the
UK is still nominally 240 V AC at 50 Hz, although the declared voltage
in the UK is now 230V AC +10% to -6%. Historically the domestic voltage
was 240 V +/-6% (and 415V 3phase), whilst continental Europe was 220V
(380V 3 phase).

Environmental Technology Centre | Voltage Optimisation
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/etc/gui...timisation.php

I assumed all new transformers would be made to be closer to the 230. Why wouldn't they?

And they don't stick to it. Mine (since a new substation) goes up to 256V at times, and they've said they don't have to do anything about it. I've had to install a voltage regulator on my lighting circuit to prevent LED bulbs from failing prematurely.

Also I've spotted a glaring error on the page you linked to, note paragraph 2) uses LESS tight standards than paragraph 1) - i.e. the second stage of harmonisation was to make it LESS strict!:

"1) In practice nothing has been changed in the UK. The first stage of European voltage harmonisation required a supply voltage of 230 V of -6% to +10%, i.e. be between 216.2 to 253V from a starting point of 240V +/-6%, i.e. be between 225.6 to 254.5V.

2) The second stage of European harmonisation was due to happen from 1st January 2003. This was 230V +/-10%, i.e. to be between 207 to 253V. The second stage has still not been applied, as of April 2013. So the situation in the UK regarding supply voltage, stated in law is that it should be 230V -6% +10%."

--
"I'm wide eyed and witless & totally off my rocker" -- Ronald Tompkins, circa 2013

On Tue, 1 May 2018 14:21:33 -0400, Ralph Mowery, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding Yankietard, blabbered:


Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

And this senile Yankie idiot STILL doesn't get it! LMAO!

In article , says...

Again, you capitalised "MEET CODE". Who gives a **** about code? It's your house, you do as you wish in it.




While it is your house now, one day it will probably be sold. Maybe not
while you are alive.

The code is to help protect the next owner of the house. How would you
like it if smeone made some modifications to the house that weakened it
and it fell in on you after you bought it, or burnt down because of
faulty electrical wiring ?

The code also helps to protect the home owner. Say you hire some worker
to do a repair or modification to your house. They do not know what
they are doing and because of their work the house has problems after
they finish and move on. I know an electrician that has a license by
the state. He is very hard headed anda wants to do things his way.
Even after the inspector tells him how to do something,he tries not to.
He then blames the inspector for being too har on him. I would not let
that electrician put a battery in a one cell flashlight.

On Tue, 1 May 2018 19:38:31 +0100, Beavis said to Butthead:


Just as it was in 1960, the supply voltage to domestic properties in the
UK is still nominally 240 V AC at 50 Hz, although the declared voltage
in the UK is now 230V AC +10% to -6%. Historically the domestic voltage
was 240 V +/-6% (and 415V 3phase), whilst continental Europe was 220V
(380V 3 phase).

Environmental Technology Centre | Voltage Optimisation
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/etc/gui...timisation.php

FINALLY the two idiots are sitting on the couch together again! LOL Let's
watch ...and comment! LOL

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:52:25 +0100, Butthead said to Beavis:

I assumed all new transformers would be made to be closer to the 230. Why
wouldn't they?

You really assumed Beavis wouldn't talk to you anymore, eh, Butthead? You
two ARE a match made in heaven! LOL

--
JoeyDee to Birdbrain
"I apologize for thinking you were a jerk. You're just someone with an IQ
lower than your age, and I accept that as a reason for your comments."
MID: l-september.org

On Tue, 1 May 2018 15:22:34 -0400, Ralph Mowery, another mentally deficient
troll-feeding Yankietard, blabbered:


While it is your house now,

You're on his hook now, you abysmally stupid troll-feeding moron! LOL

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 1:21:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.

Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.


In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have 3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Steel Monster

On Tue, 01 May 2018 20:22:34 +0100, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article , says...

Again, you capitalised "MEET CODE". Who gives a **** about code? It's your house, you do as you wish in it.

While it is your house now, one day it will probably be sold. Maybe not
while you are alive.

The code is to help protect the next owner of the house. How would you
like it if smeone made some modifications to the house that weakened it
and it fell in on you after you bought it, or burnt down because of
faulty electrical wiring ?

The new owner is free to have any tests done they wish before deciding to buy the house.

The code also helps to protect the home owner. Say you hire some worker
to do a repair or modification to your house. They do not know what
they are doing and because of their work the house has problems after
they finish and move on.

I am free to watch what they're doing or get an independant inspector.

I know an electrician that has a license by
the state. He is very hard headed anda wants to do things his way.
Even after the inspector tells him how to do something,he tries not to.
He then blames the inspector for being too har on him. I would not let
that electrician put a battery in a one cell flashlight.

--
I took my Biology exam last Friday. I was asked to name two things commonly found in cells. Apparently "Blacks" and "Scousers" were not the correct answers.

In article ,
says...

In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have
3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC
units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some
exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Steel Monster



The company I worked for had to run 24/7 so we had 2 feeds from the
power company comming in from 2 directiions. I don't know what voltage
that was. They went into our own substations and buildings where we feed
a main ring of 13,200 volts to about 20 smaller substations in the plant
that converted mostly to 480 v 3 phase with 300 to 600 amp breakers that
feed about 40 places that had about 40 or 50 motor starters each in
them. Also a lot of places for 120 volts.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 22:01:15 +0100, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 1:21:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.

Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have 3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some
exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

We had some Irish (never employ immigrunts) electricians doing an extension to a school I worked at.

Their first ****up was connecting two phases instead of a phase and neutral to a set of standard outlets, which destroyed 20 computers. I believe the problem was caused by new and old wiring colours, and the stupid little ****s got confused. We claimed off their insurance (then I er.... may have repaired the "broken" computers which had just blown a bulk capacitor each).

But then they managed to short a couple of incoming phases to the building and set fire to the switchroom - something wasn't tightened properly and came undone. The power company were not happy. Somebody had to pay for a huge diesel generator the size of a lorry/truck/whatever you call the big 50 tonne things over there, to supply the school for a week while they dug the ground up and re-laid the wires.

--
REALITY.EXE corrupt. Reboot universe (Y/N)?

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 5:17:21 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have 3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC
units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Steel Monster

The company I worked for had to run 24/7 so we had 2 feeds from the
power company comming in from 2 directiions. I don't know what voltage
that was. They went into our own substations and buildings where we feed
a main ring of 13,200 volts to about 20 smaller substations in the plant
that converted mostly to 480 v 3 phase with 300 to 600 amp breakers that
feed about 40 places that had about 40 or 50 motor starters each in
them. Also a lot of places for 120 volts.


I miss working but I was working for myself when I got to the point I couldn't walk anymore. I never dreamed I'd wind up in a wheelchair. I'm glad I always helped or "asked" disabled folks if I could help them when I was able-bodied. It's best to ask if you can help because some disabled folks want to do it on their own and get a bit testy if you don't get their permission to assist them. I make it a point to thank anyone who helps me, especially a child because it brings a smile to their face. I've had little kids who were 5 or 6 hold a door open for me and they get a thrill when I thank them for helping me. It could be the white hair, white beard, and eyeglasses that makes them believe I'm Santa. I'll have to start dressing in red but I don't have the belly anymore, I banished it for health reasons.^_^

[8~{} Uncle Wheeled Monster

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 5:18:55 PM UTC-5, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 22:01:15 +0100, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 1:21:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.

Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have 3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some
exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

We had some Irish (never employ immigrunts) electricians doing an extension to a school I worked at.

Their first ****up was connecting two phases instead of a phase and neutral to a set of standard outlets, which destroyed 20 computers. I believe the problem was caused by new and old wiring colours, and the stupid little ****s got confused. We claimed off their insurance (then I er.... may have repaired the "broken" computers which had just blown a bulk capacitor each).

But then they managed to short a couple of incoming phases to the building and set fire to the switchroom - something wasn't tightened properly and came undone. The power company were not happy. Somebody had to pay for a huge diesel generator the size of a lorry/truck/whatever you call the big 50 tonne things over there, to supply the school for a week while they dug the ground up and re-laid the wires.
--


I was never afraid of high voltage power, I treated it like a venomous snake and a woman who would betray me at any moment. There are standards and color codes that must be followed not so much for yourself but for anyone who comes behind you. I'd feel pretty bad if someone were to be hurt or killed because I didn't follow codes and wiring standards. I always had test equipment that I could trust. Test everything before energizing it and double check it after it's powered up. Electrical power can be very unforgiving especially at higher voltages. O_o

[8~{} Uncle Sparky Monster

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:52:25 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 19:38:31 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 01/05/2018 19:25, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 01 May 2018 15:41:19 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 12:40:23 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:46:08 +0100, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 10:09:06 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 4/28/2018 8:33 PM, trader_4 wrote:
He's not obsessed with code, he merely pointed out to you that you
don;t know WTF you're talking about,*again*, and Edison circuits
are normal, safe, and MEET CODE. The neutral current will never be
greater than the breaker rating. For example, a 20A circuit will
have 20A breakers and use 12g wire. There will never be more than
20A flowing in the neutral.

Yes, Edison circuits MEET CODE but because of the potential
mayhem lurking with an unbalanced load and a loose neutral, you
won't find one in my house. Too much risk, not enough reward.

Yes, that's a different question, whether they are worth it or not.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Another issue is that some
homeowner
who knows something about electricity, but like JWS doesn't understand
how they work, screws around with it in the future. But the point
here
was that they do work, they don't somehow overload the neutral and
that
is recognized by them being described in the code and acceptable.

The main advantage is reduced voltage drop on a circuit that goes to
the far end of the house. You might even find them that you don't know
about because they were not required to be on a 2 pole or handle tied
breaker until fairly recently.
The requirement to have a common trip was applied to multiwire
circuits in 1987 but only if both sides landed on the same yoke. (a
split receptacle) There was no requirement before that. It was not
until 2008 that the NEC required all multi wire circuits to have a
common trip. When you understand that most jurisdictions take a while
to adapt the new code. you can have a pretty new house with a
multiwire circuit landing on 2 single pole breakers that are not even
required to be grouped, much less handle tied.
The typical multiwire circuit in a house will feed bedrooms or general
lighting loads on the far end of the house and be split out in a
ceiling box so they never land on a single yoke. .

You get less voltage drop if you use a decent voltage instead of a
namby pamby one.

The voltage drop on a multiwire circuit is based on 240v

If you happen to evenly spread the load.

and you only have 220. Who is namby pamby again?

Actually my mains voltage is 245. The UK used to be 250 and is now 240
(ish). 220 is for places like France.

Just as it was in 1960, the supply voltage to domestic properties in the
UK is still nominally 240 V AC at 50 Hz, although the declared voltage
in the UK is now 230V AC +10% to -6%. Historically the domestic voltage
was 240 V +/-6% (and 415V 3phase), whilst continental Europe was 220V
(380V 3 phase).

Environmental Technology Centre | Voltage Optimisation
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/etc/gui...timisation.php

I assumed all new transformers would be made to be closer to the 230. Why wouldn't they?

And they don't stick to it. Mine (since a new substation) goes up to 256V at times, and they've said they don't have to do anything about it. I've had to install a voltage regulator on my lighting circuit to prevent LED bulbs from failing prematurely.

Also I've spotted a glaring error on the page you linked to, note paragraph 2) uses LESS tight standards than paragraph 1) - i.e. the second stage of harmonisation was to make it LESS strict!:

"1) In practice nothing has been changed in the UK. The first stage of European voltage harmonisation required a supply voltage of 230 V of -6% to +10%, i.e. be between 216.2 to 253V from a starting point of 240V +/-6%, i.e. be between 225.6 to 254.5V.

2) The second stage of European harmonisation was due to happen from 1st January 2003. This was 230V +/-10%, i.e. to be between 207 to 253V. The second stage has still not been applied, as of April 2013. So the situation in the UK regarding supply voltage, stated in law is that it should be 230V -6% +10%."

I see around 124/248 here. There does not seem to be much adjustment
on the transformers either. I only see an input voltage switch.

On Tue, 01 May 2018 23:18:49 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Tue, 01 May 2018 22:01:15 +0100, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 1:21:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

It just seems odd not to have it 220 instead of 277 (not far different numbers). But I guess you have three phase completely seperate from your domestic stuff. Our 3 phase is also used for domestic supplies, we get one leg per house, so commercial stuff just takes all three phases, and still has the standard 220 to run
computers and lights.

Large consumers of electricity will have 480 v 3 phase. As stated, the
lights are usually mercury vapor (or similar) or flouresent. The
ballast are set for 277 as that is from the center of the Y winding to
one of the 480 legs. The lights are often split so some go to each leg
of the 480 and center of the Y. That way if something hapens to one
section of lights, the others stay on.

Lots of differences in large companies and small offices and homes in
the US.

Almost no standard homes will have 3 phase. They usually have a
transformer at the power pole that supplies 240 volts with the center
tap to give 120 volts for most of the recepticals and smaller loads and
240 for water heaters, AC or electric heat, stoves, and well pumps if
not on a water system.

In my experience, the large consumers of electricity are getting 4,160 or 13,800 service and own their own transformers. Of course, they are actually small consumers compared to some industrial users who have their own dang substation! There are some older homes in the old high-income neighborhood outside of Birmingham that have 3 phase power. The reason being that at the time the homes were built, they needed a large air conditioning system 5 tons and up and at the time the homes were built, there were no single phase AC units of 5-tons and up available so the large homes were supplied 3 phase power. I serviced some of those old 5-ton semi-hermetic AC units installed on a few of those classic grand old homes that were built in the 1950's and early 1960's. It was like working on commercial refrigeration and AC systems. At least no start relays and capacitors are needed for those 3-phase compressors. Those semi-hermetic compressors are also easily rebuildable and I did some
exchanges akin to installing a crate motor in a car or pickup truck. Those semi-hermetic compressors are quite heavy but I could always find a remanufactured unit. It was getting some help to carry the hunk of steel that was the biggest problem. I miss working. o_O

We had some Irish (never employ immigrunts) electricians doing an extension to a school I worked at.

Their first ****up was connecting two phases instead of a phase and neutral to a set of standard outlets, which destroyed 20 computers. I believe the problem was caused by new and old wiring colours, and the stupid little ****s got confused. We claimed off their insurance (then I er.... may have repaired the "broken" computers which had just blown a bulk capacitor each).


See if someone did that here, nobody would know because computer
supplies will work anywhere from 100v to 250v