Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter. There were two other fellows reporting
nearby, as well as another maintenance guy. Lots of stuff.

Greg

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.




The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.




I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:36:06 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?

There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.

The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)


OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Concerned Monster

On 10/12/17 9:07 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:36:06 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?

There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.

The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.

I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)


OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Concerned Monster


DDS

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.




The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.


What is missing in all of this is where was the warning? (or any real
response)

They had 6 minutes but as far as we can tell, the first real
indication that anything was going on was people at the concert being
shot.
You are right that there is still a lot we are not being told and we
have reason to question what they tell us, simply because the story
keeps changing.

trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.

And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.




The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.

There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.




I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)

I also would think someone walking around outside would hear window
breakage or It hitting below. Speculation about suicide alarms on all
windows.

Greg

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)

The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72
minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.

Greg

On Friday, October 13, 2017 at 3:09:07 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:06:54 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Oren wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 14:44:52 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.

+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

http://www.shotspotter.com/technology

After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.

To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.

It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)

The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72
minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.

Greg

What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.

At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something where
there are so many recorders going and so much private surveillance
going on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I really
believed casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those high
tech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.
Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.