Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?

On 09/10/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?




According to all codes I've ever seen the only place where neutral and
ground may share the same bus is in the distribution panel itself.

If not, there could potentially be a ground loop which could negate the
safety of any GFC outlets.


Though may never run into a problem , I'd err on the side of safety and
wire your generator according to code.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 12:39:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.


I presume this method is until you get a transfer switch and you're
talking about using a suicide cord? If so, then you need it to go into
a 240V receptacle to be able to power all loads. But it's called a
suicide cord for a good reason. I'd do it or similar in an emergency, but
it's not a good, safe, general plan for emergency power. And if you
do it, you need to make sure anyone involved is aware of it,
secure it, etc. If it's just you in a house it's one thing. Do it
in a business, where other people come and go, etc and it's easy for
someone to come along and close the main breaker.





If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me).

I assume that last connection is made
via the cable from generator to receptacle in your suicide example or
by the cable to the transfer switch in the proper way.



I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping....


If the generator is also grounded to earth locally with a ground rod,
or even with the metal frame sitting on earth, not so sure about that
with using GFCI on the generator. You have current coming out a hot
on the GFCI and it now has two paths back. One is through the neutral
conductor in the cable
going to the house system. The other is back through the house ground
rod/system, through the earth, and back to the generator via it's earth
ground. The vast majority of the current is going to come back via
the neutral. But some will flow through the earth too.
Seems to me that would cause the GFCI on the generator to trip, it
only takes a few MA.
Doesn't the generator have a 240V receptacle that is not GFCI? That
is what I have used. And I didn't ground the generator, just ran the
4 wire cord back to the house system, so the generator is grounded
via the house.

Also, instead of a transfer switch, I'd look into using an Interlockit
with an additional breaker in the panel. It's essentially a slide
that prevents the main breaker and a breaker in the first slot from
being on at the same time. You hook up your inlet to that new
breaker. I think it's cheaper and easier than doing the transfer
switch deal and you can power anything in the house.


I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?

Falsely tripping a GFCI on the generator I can see.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 1:03:26 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 09/10/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping.....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond.. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?




According to all codes I've ever seen the only place where neutral and
ground may share the same bus is in the distribution panel itself.

They don't ever share the same bus, they are bonded together.




If not, there could potentially be a ground loop which could negate the
safety of any GFC outlets.


I can see issues like that causing false tripping, but I'm having
a hard time visualizing a scenario where it causes a GFCI to fail
to work.

In article ,
wrote:

Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a
transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has
the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the
generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding
rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground
that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection
so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension
cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided
to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does
not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my
generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals
together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral
is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House
Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of
generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this
avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator
tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the
internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution
mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer
switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral
bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?

CW-

You do not need to switch the generator ground, but you do need to
disconnect it from the frame when connecting to your house system.

Whether you can do it or not depends a lot on the generator. Some make
it nearly impossible to separate ground from neutral. Others have a
short green jumper wire from one outlet's ground to the frame.

I get around the problem by not connecting into the house system. I run
a heavy extension cord from the generator into the house. Only a few
lights and appliances get plugged in. In an emergency, I figure lights,
a microwave, a refrigerator and a coffee maker are all that I need.

My refrigerator keeps ice frozen for at least 8 hours, so I do not run
the generator while asleep. That saves gas and the generator is less
likely to be stolen!

Fred

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 1:57:00 PM UTC-4, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a
transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has
the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the
generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding
rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground
that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection
so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension
cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided
to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does
not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my
generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals
together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral
is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House
Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of
generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this
avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator
tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the
internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution
mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer
switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral
bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?

CW-

You do not need to switch the generator ground, but you do need to
disconnect it from the frame when connecting to your house system.

Whether you can do it or not depends a lot on the generator. Some make
it nearly impossible to separate ground from neutral. Others have a
short green jumper wire from one outlet's ground to the frame.

I get around the problem by not connecting into the house system. I run
a heavy extension cord from the generator into the house. Only a few
lights and appliances get plugged in. In an emergency, I figure lights,
a microwave, a refrigerator and a coffee maker are all that I need.

My refrigerator keeps ice frozen for at least 8 hours, so I do not run
the generator while asleep. That saves gas and the generator is less
likely to be stolen!

Fred

What is the benefit to disconnecting the frame from the ground at the generator? I can see one big negative, the frame is now ungrounded and if a hot wire in the generator comes in contact with it the frame is energized. Touch it and the return current path is through you, through earth, back to the house grounding electrode. Am I missing something?

Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution.. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

On 09/10/2017 12:29 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 1:03:26 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 09/10/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?




According to all codes I've ever seen the only place where neutral and
ground may share the same bus is in the distribution panel itself.

They don't ever share the same bus, they are bonded together.



My house was recently re-wired and it passed the electrical inspection.
In the breaker box the grounds and neutrals share the same bus.

Don't know exactly what you mean.


If not, there could potentially be a ground loop which could negate the
safety of any GFC outlets.


I can see issues like that causing false tripping, but I'm having
a hard time visualizing a scenario where it causes a GFCI to fail
to work.



I also cannot see how a GFCI would fail to work but I'd still follow the
electrical code to the letter.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:29:52 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 09/10/2017 12:29 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 1:03:26 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On 09/10/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?




According to all codes I've ever seen the only place where neutral and
ground may share the same bus is in the distribution panel itself.

They don't ever share the same bus, they are bonded together.



My house was recently re-wired and it passed the electrical inspection.
In the breaker box the grounds and neutrals share the same bus.

Don't know exactly what you mean.


I was reading "bus" but thinking conductor. What I meant was that
the equipment grounds should not be carrying current, only the
neutral should. At the bus level you're right, assuming it's the
main panel and that is where the neutral and the grounding electrode
conductor are tied together, then it's OK to have the grounds and
neutral on the same bus and if they are on separate buses, then
the two buses are bonded together. Sorry for the confusion.

On 09/10/2017 06:15 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:29:52 PM UTC-4, philo wrote:
On
According to all codes I've ever seen the only place where neutral and
ground may share the same bus is in the distribution panel itself.

They don't ever share the same bus, they are bonded together.



My house was recently re-wired and it passed the electrical inspection.
In the breaker box the grounds and neutrals share the same bus.

Don't know exactly what you mean.


I was reading "bus" but thinking conductor. What I meant was that
the equipment grounds should not be carrying current, only the
neutral should. At the bus level you're right, assuming it's the
main panel and that is where the neutral and the grounding electrode
conductor are tied together, then it's OK to have the grounds and
neutral on the same bus and if they are on separate buses, then
the two buses are bonded together. Sorry for the confusion.






Doesn't take much to confuse me.

Think we are both on the same page now.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 2:56:59 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 1:57:00 PM UTC-4, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

Got a portable generator recently. Would like to eventually wire in a
transfer switch for my house and run a few selected rooms. My generator has
the neutral bonded to the frame. You are also supposed to ground the
generator frame. Seeing as it's portable they tell you to pound a grounding
rod into the ground and wire your ground lug on the frame to that.

I'm going to jack it into my house, so I think I can just use the same ground
that runs through my house. Every 120V outlet will have a ground connection
so getting to this ground be easy with a custom cable or modified extension
cord.

If I ground my generator to the same ground that the power company provided
to my house, I believe I can use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch that does
not have the special third pole to switch my house circuits over to my
generator neutral....basic transfer switches just connect the neutrals
together (house and generator). So that's what I want to do. House Neutral
is connected to Generator Neutral. House Neutral is also bonded to House
Ground (by the power company, not me) and Generator Ground (frame of
generator) is connected to house ground (this one by me). I think this
avoids all the problems with ground loops and GFIC outlets on the generator
tripping....

I can't see why this doesn't work BUT there are articles all over the
internet describing this problem. I've not seen this simple solution
mentioned. It's always you need to buy a special and more expensive transfer
switch or you need to modify your generator and remove the ground-neutral
bond. It seems to be a source of great confusion.

Can anyone see a problem with method I'm describing?

CW-

You do not need to switch the generator ground, but you do need to
disconnect it from the frame when connecting to your house system.

Whether you can do it or not depends a lot on the generator. Some make
it nearly impossible to separate ground from neutral. Others have a
short green jumper wire from one outlet's ground to the frame.

I get around the problem by not connecting into the house system. I run
a heavy extension cord from the generator into the house. Only a few
lights and appliances get plugged in. In an emergency, I figure lights,
a microwave, a refrigerator and a coffee maker are all that I need.

My refrigerator keeps ice frozen for at least 8 hours, so I do not run
the generator while asleep. That saves gas and the generator is less
likely to be stolen!

Fred

What is the benefit to disconnecting the frame from the ground at the generator? I can see one big negative, the frame is now ungrounded and if a hot wire in the generator comes in contact with it the frame is energized. Touch it and the return current path is through you, through earth, back to the house grounding electrode. Am I missing something?


I figured out the issue and the problem. As I see it, the issue isn't
the frame being disconnected from ground, it's the issue of whether the
neutral at the generator is tied to ground or not. If the generator
neutral is not tied to the frame and not otherwise earthed, then the
system relies on the house neutral and earth ground connection and it
meets code. You have one path for the neutral current to flow between
generator and house, that's in the neutral conductor in the cord used
to connect the two.

If the neutral at the generator is connected to the frame
then you have three paths for neutral current to flow between the
generator and the house. One is via the neutral in the 3 conductor
plus ground cord used to connect, which is the desired path.
Another is via the ground wire in that cord. The third is via earth.
That's the problem, you're now putting neutral current where it
shouldn't be, mainly it will be split between the neutral and the
ground wire.

Also, if the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator,
then the generator frame should and must still be grounded to the system
by the ground wire (eqpt grounding conductor) in the cord used
to connect to the house.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

And if you have a panel that you can get an Interlockit kit for,
you can do it for the cost of that, a breaker, and an inlet.
I'd bet that's a lot less than a transfer switch.

Hope that helps.

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:57:12 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

I had the same problem.
If the neutral and ground are tied together in your panel (they are) and they are also tied together in the generator, then when you feed the house, some of the load current will flow through the grond wire and trip the GFI in the generator.

The solution I used was to UNBOND the the neutral and ground in the generator. Keep the ground connected to the frame for safety, but disconnect it from the neutral. This way, the frame remains safely grounded, and no load current can try to pass though the ground wire.

So the possible danger with that is due to static electricity the two load wires can build up a voltage above ground and can arc over the insulation. For this reason I connected the ground to the neutral through a MOV instead of a direct bond. This prevents any high voltage from building up on the wingdings.

This is a pretty complicated issue actually.

mark

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:40:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:57:12 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

I had the same problem.
If the neutral and ground are tied together in your panel (they are) and they are also tied together in the generator, then when you feed the house, some of the load current will flow through the grond wire and trip the GFI in the generator.

The solution I used was to UNBOND the the neutral and ground in the generator. Keep the ground connected to the frame for safety, but disconnect it from the neutral. This way, the frame remains safely grounded, and no load current can try to pass though the ground wire.

So the possible danger with that is due to static electricity the two load wires can build up a voltage above ground and can arc over the insulation..

I don't see how that can happen. The two load wires, the windings, are
still tied to earth ground via the neutral to earth connection at
the house panel. It would be like attempting to put static charge
on the positive end of a battery while the negative end is earthed.

You have anything that documents this, shows it happening?


For this reason I connected the ground to the neutral through a MOV instead of a direct bond. This prevents any high voltage from building up on the wingdings.

This is a pretty complicated issue actually.

mark

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:50:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:40:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:57:12 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

I had the same problem.
If the neutral and ground are tied together in your panel (they are) and they are also tied together in the generator, then when you feed the house, some of the load current will flow through the grond wire and trip the GFI in the generator.

The solution I used was to UNBOND the the neutral and ground in the generator. Keep the ground connected to the frame for safety, but disconnect it from the neutral. This way, the frame remains safely grounded, and no load current can try to pass though the ground wire.

So the possible danger with that is due to static electricity the two load wires can build up a voltage above ground and can arc over the insulation.

I don't see how that can happen. The two load wires, the windings, are
still tied to earth ground via the neutral to earth connection at
the house panel. It would be like attempting to put static charge
on the positive end of a battery while the negative end is earthed.

You have anything that documents this, shows it happening?


yes i agree with you, when the generator is connected to a house with the ground a neutral bonded, static electricity cannot happen.

but if the modified generator is used to power an isolated load like it was intended where nothing is bonded, then it could happen.

I guess another solution would be to use add a switch to the generator, unbond when feeding a house, bond when feeding an isolated load.

mark

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 18:56:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:50:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:40:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:57:12 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

I had the same problem.
If the neutral and ground are tied together in your panel (they are) and they are also tied together in the generator, then when you feed the house, some of the load current will flow through the grond wire and trip the GFI in the generator.

The solution I used was to UNBOND the the neutral and ground in the generator. Keep the ground connected to the frame for safety, but disconnect it from the neutral. This way, the frame remains safely grounded, and no load current can try to pass though the ground wire.

So the possible danger with that is due to static electricity the two load wires can build up a voltage above ground and can arc over the insulation.

I don't see how that can happen. The two load wires, the windings, are
still tied to earth ground via the neutral to earth connection at
the house panel. It would be like attempting to put static charge
on the positive end of a battery while the negative end is earthed.

You have anything that documents this, shows it happening?


yes i agree with you, when the generator is connected to a house with the ground a neutral bonded, static electricity cannot happen.

but if the modified generator is used to power an isolated load like it was intended where nothing is bonded, then it could happen.

I guess another solution would be to use add a switch to the generator, unbond when feeding a house, bond when feeding an isolated load.

mark
Unbond the generator for connection to the house. To re-bond for
portable use, simply make a
bobd jumper" - a 3 wire plug with the white and green jumpered that
you plug into one of the outlets for portable use (or just put a
switch in the bonding wire)

On Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:25:21 -0400, wrote:


Unbond the generator for connection to the house. To re-bond for
portable use, simply make a
bobd jumper" - a 3 wire plug with the white and green jumpered that
you plug into one of the outlets for portable use (or just put a
switch in the bonding wire)

The only other legal alternative is to use a 3 pole transfer switch
(separately derived system)

On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:56:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:50:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:40:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 7:57:12 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 4:10:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Yeah definitely want to ground the generator frame no matter what.. I was thinking I could ground the frame through a household ground wire. In a strange way, if I use a standard 2-Pole transfer switch, just by connecting the generator 220 plug to the transfer switch I have connected the generator frame and my generator neutral & ground to my household ground distribution. Assuming I modify nothing at all, that's what would happen.

See my other reply I just made to my own post. I agree, you're on the
right track. What you stated above is all good and code compliant,
as long as *the neutral is not connected to ground at the generator*.
Doing some googling, it looks like some generators they are, some are not,
some have a jumper.





So in your example the hot wire comes loose in the generator hits the frame and is shorted to the ground connection in my house. Similar to what happens when a hot wire comes loose in a lamp with a grounded metal frame plugged into a wall outlet.

Agree.



I'm struggling to see why that doesn't work but I'm probably under-thinking this. The only thing I've been noodling is ground(s) potential differences. So the ground I'm standing on beside the generator (generator is on plastic wheels), could be at a different potential from the ground wherever my house transformer is grounded. But I'd expect that problem to be minor otherwise you'd have this issue on outdoor lights and outlets.

Just trying to understand it all a little more.

See my discussion about the issue of whether the neutral is connected
to ground at the generator in the other post. If it's not, then what
you're describing is fine, code compliant. But if the generator has
the neutral connected to ground, you then have 3 paths for neutral
current to flow between the house and generator:

1 - neutral wire in the cord, which you want

2 - ground wire in the cord, which is bad and a code violation

3 - through the earth ground at the house, through earth, back to generator

That is the issue, whether the neutral is connected at the generator or
not. If it is, then you have to treat it as a separately derived
system and switch the neutral at the transfer switch, which complicates
things. And then the generator is the place where the system neutral
and earth ground are tied together and you need an appropriate earthing
system that meets code, not a 2 ft ground rod that some Chinese generator
manual talks about. Which is why I'd avoid that choice.




Regardless, after more thought, I'm just going to install it all the right way. I'll ground the generator frame locally at the generator and install a neutral-switch type transfer switch. Generac sells a neutral switch kit for their transfer switches and reliance controls has the X-Series models which are designed for this very problem.

I'm just thinking through it all. Right now I just have a generator

Either way is right, the issue is whether that neutral is grounded at
the generator or not. I'd much prefer the first method, using the
house earthing system. It's likely a good earthing system, why
install another one and one that you have to remember to connect
the generator to? It's more than just using the typical one cord,
something someone else could easily overlook, forget, etc.

I had the same problem.
If the neutral and ground are tied together in your panel (they are) and they are also tied together in the generator, then when you feed the house, some of the load current will flow through the grond wire and trip the GFI in the generator.

The solution I used was to UNBOND the the neutral and ground in the generator. Keep the ground connected to the frame for safety, but disconnect it from the neutral. This way, the frame remains safely grounded, and no load current can try to pass though the ground wire.

So the possible danger with that is due to static electricity the two load wires can build up a voltage above ground and can arc over the insulation.

I don't see how that can happen. The two load wires, the windings, are
still tied to earth ground via the neutral to earth connection at
the house panel. It would be like attempting to put static charge
on the positive end of a battery while the negative end is earthed.

You have anything that documents this, shows it happening?


yes i agree with you, when the generator is connected to a house with the ground a neutral bonded, static electricity cannot happen.


After I posted that I thought about it some more and realized the same
thing, ie that the generator isn't always connected to the house or even
to anything at times, so the windings are effectively isolated.






but if the modified generator is used to power an isolated load like it was intended where nothing is bonded, then it could happen.

I guess another solution would be to use add a switch to the generator, unbond when feeding a house, bond when feeding an isolated load.

mark

+1

That would allow it to be used either way. Of course then the problem
becomes people remembering to put the switch in the right position.
I'd try to make the switch very obvious, big labeling, etc.

trader,
looking at interlockit now. thank you for recommending. that is a very good option. may have same issue though with generator and neutral-frame bonding right? i haven't had time to look at it closely yet, but seems like i would...if so, that method is worth me getting in and unbonding the neutral line from the frame. i didn't want to mess with that but now thinking i might after realizing the flexibility i will get from the interlockit.

On Tuesday, September 12, 2017 at 9:16:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
trader,
looking at interlockit now. thank you for recommending. that is a very good option. may have same issue though with generator and neutral-frame bonding right?

Yes, to be code compliant, the neutral can't be connected to ground
at the generator.



i haven't had time to look at it closely yet, but seems like i would...if so, that method is worth me getting in and unbonding the neutral line from the frame. i didn't want to mess with that but now thinking i might after realizing the flexibility i will get from the interlockit.


I've been thinking more about the whole issue of whether the neutral
is connected at the generator or not. From what I see, the code issue
is clear, that unless you switch the neutral at the transfer switch,
then the neutral and ground cannot be connected at the generator.
And if you do switch it, then you need a code compliant grounding
system for the generator.

But the next question is, why is this and what are the possible safety
implications if you didn't follow it. Note that I'm not saying you
shouldn't follow the code, just trying to figure out what the
possible scenarios are, what the code is trying to do, what goes
wrong if you don't follow it. In other words, I was trying to figure
out the physics and what the safety issues are.

If you have the neutral and ground connected at both the panel and
the generator and use a 4 wire cord, then as I pointed out
previously you have three paths for neutral current to flow between
the house and generator:

1 - Via the neutral conductor

2 - Via the ground wire

3 - through the earth

Suppose instead you eliminate the ground wire in the cord. Then
you have the neutral and ground connected at the house and at
the generator. This is exactly how the power company service
is wired in. I was trying to think what can go wrong here,
what is inherently unsafe about wiring it that way. I can't
think of a scenario where there is a safety problem beyond
any that you already have with any portable generator. Maybe
I'm missing something. Can anyone here see some safety issue
I'm missing? And note I'm not saying you should wire it that
way, it's a code violation. I'm just wondering why, ie what's
the hazard that exists, what have I missed?

I've been thinking more about the whole issue of whether the neutral
is connected at the generator or not. From what I see, the code issue
is clear, that unless you switch the neutral at the transfer switch,
then the neutral and ground cannot be connected at the generator.
And if you do switch it, then you need a code compliant grounding
system for the generator.

But the next question is, why is this and what are the possible safety
implications if you didn't follow it. Note that I'm not saying you
shouldn't follow the code, just trying to figure out what the
possible scenarios are, what the code is trying to do, what goes
wrong if you don't follow it. In other words, I was trying to figure
out the physics and what the safety issues are.

If you have the neutral and ground connected at both the panel and
the generator and use a 4 wire cord, then as I pointed out
previously you have three paths for neutral current to flow between
the house and generator:

1 - Via the neutral conductor

2 - Via the ground wire

3 - through the earth

Suppose instead you eliminate the ground wire in the cord. Then
you have the neutral and ground connected at the house and at
the generator. This is exactly how the power company service
is wired in. I was trying to think what can go wrong here,
what is inherently unsafe about wiring it that way. I can't
think of a scenario where there is a safety problem beyond
any that you already have with any portable generator. Maybe
I'm missing something. Can anyone here see some safety issue
I'm missing? And note I'm not saying you should wire it that
way, it's a code violation. I'm just wondering why, ie what's
the hazard that exists, what have I missed?


I would not recommended cutting the ground (green) wire in the connecting cable. If there should be an open fault in the neutral wire, the frame of the generator will become energized via the load and this is obviously VERY dangerous.


there are 2 problems of having the neutral and ground bonded both at the house panel and at the generator.

1) if the generator has a GFI, it will trip.
this is obviously an operational problem.

2) some load current will flow in the ground (green) wire. It will be shared by the neutral (white) wire and the ground (green) wire. This is a code issue but not an actual safety issue that I can see.

If there is no GFI involved, then there not really any safety issue. Just let it be bonded at both places. Its the GFI that makes it more complicated.

mark

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 9:52:12 AM UTC-4, wrote:


I've been thinking more about the whole issue of whether the neutral
is connected at the generator or not. From what I see, the code issue
is clear, that unless you switch the neutral at the transfer switch,
then the neutral and ground cannot be connected at the generator.
And if you do switch it, then you need a code compliant grounding
system for the generator.

But the next question is, why is this and what are the possible safety
implications if you didn't follow it. Note that I'm not saying you
shouldn't follow the code, just trying to figure out what the
possible scenarios are, what the code is trying to do, what goes
wrong if you don't follow it. In other words, I was trying to figure
out the physics and what the safety issues are.

If you have the neutral and ground connected at both the panel and
the generator and use a 4 wire cord, then as I pointed out
previously you have three paths for neutral current to flow between
the house and generator:

1 - Via the neutral conductor

2 - Via the ground wire

3 - through the earth

Suppose instead you eliminate the ground wire in the cord. Then
you have the neutral and ground connected at the house and at
the generator. This is exactly how the power company service
is wired in. I was trying to think what can go wrong here,
what is inherently unsafe about wiring it that way. I can't
think of a scenario where there is a safety problem beyond
any that you already have with any portable generator. Maybe
I'm missing something. Can anyone here see some safety issue
I'm missing? And note I'm not saying you should wire it that
way, it's a code violation. I'm just wondering why, ie what's
the hazard that exists, what have I missed?


I would not recommended cutting the ground (green) wire in the connecting cable. If there should be an open fault in the neutral wire, the frame of the generator will become energized via the load and this is obviously VERY dangerous.


I agree it would be if the generator is not earthed. If it is earthed,
then it seems very similar to how power is delivered to the house to begin with.
The frame would be at the same potential as the earth, so you would
not have a shock hazard. That is of course assuming that
the generator is properly earthed and I guess therein lies the problem.
It's not a permanent install and at best it would rely on a human
connecting the generator ground to an installed ground system.
Also bad, that would be a separate step, aside from plugging in the
power cord. If they don't then you have the hazard scenario you're describing.





there are 2 problems of having the neutral and ground bonded both at the house panel and at the generator.

1) if the generator has a GFI, it will trip.
this is obviously an operational problem.

Yes, I agree with that. That's one of the things I said when the
OP first posted.




2) some load current will flow in the ground (green) wire. It will be shared by the neutral (white) wire and the ground (green) wire. This is a code issue but not an actual safety issue that I can see.

I agree with that too.




If there is no GFI involved, then there not really any safety issue. Just let it be bonded at both places. Its the GFI that makes it more complicated.

mark

Except of course that it's a code violation. But there must be people
all over the place, in FL right now for example, that are hooking up
generators of all kinds with 3 conductor plus ground cords. And I'll
bet very few know if the generator has it's neutral bonded or not
and whether their house has the neutral switched or not.

And then you have the issue that if the generator is set up with the
neutral not connected to the frame, then it's a violation for use
as a generator to power typical loads that are plugged into it,
eg lights, power tools, etc. You could set it up so it can be
switched, but then that relies on someone putting the switch in the
right position. And if you have a standby transfer set up for
a generator that has the neutral not connected at the frame,
a different generator could one day replace it or be used when
the need for emergency power arises. Or vice-versa. And worse,
if you do what the code says you need to do with a generator that
does have the neutral connected to the frame, which is to earth
the system there, then you're relying on someone properly earthing
the generator frame before using it. If they don't, then you
have the generator unearthed, or partially earthed by virtue of
sitting on the ground.

Seems to me, and it sounds like you agree, that having the generator
neutral bonded to the frame, not switching the neutral at the house,
and using a 4 conductor cord might be the most practical and maybe
the safest solution overall, even though it does not meet code.
Unless we're missing some safety hazard there.
I googled a bit see a lot of people talking about the various aspects
of all this, and no solution that I've seen covers all possible
scenarios when it comes to connecting a portable generator.

..

Seems to me, and it sounds like you agree, that having the generator
neutral bonded to the frame, not switching the neutral at the house,
and using a 4 conductor cord might be the most practical and maybe
the safest solution overall, even though it does not meet code.
Unless we're missing some safety hazard there.

If there is no GFI, yes, I agree this is the most practical and safest (but not strictly code compliant) solution.

If a GFI is present on the generator, a more complicated solution is needed.

there is a bunch of previous discussion

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...me-nuts.html#b

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=143277

http://ezgeneratorswitch.com/need-kn...ating-neutral/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors...ded/17-651392/

m

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 18:15:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

trader,
looking at interlockit now. thank you for recommending. that is a very good option. may have same issue though with generator and neutral-frame bonding right? i haven't had time to look at it closely yet, but seems like i would...if so, that method is worth me getting in and unbonding the neutral line from the frame. i didn't want to mess with that but now thinking i might after realizing the flexibility i will get from the interlockit.
I have the interlock installed - works great!

On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:52:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




I've been thinking more about the whole issue of whether the neutral
is connected at the generator or not. From what I see, the code issue
is clear, that unless you switch the neutral at the transfer switch,
then the neutral and ground cannot be connected at the generator.
And if you do switch it, then you need a code compliant grounding
system for the generator.

But the next question is, why is this and what are the possible safety
implications if you didn't follow it. Note that I'm not saying you
shouldn't follow the code, just trying to figure out what the
possible scenarios are, what the code is trying to do, what goes
wrong if you don't follow it. In other words, I was trying to figure
out the physics and what the safety issues are.

If you have the neutral and ground connected at both the panel and
the generator and use a 4 wire cord, then as I pointed out
previously you have three paths for neutral current to flow between
the house and generator:

1 - Via the neutral conductor

2 - Via the ground wire

3 - through the earth

Suppose instead you eliminate the ground wire in the cord. Then
you have the neutral and ground connected at the house and at
the generator. This is exactly how the power company service
is wired in. I was trying to think what can go wrong here,
what is inherently unsafe about wiring it that way. I can't
think of a scenario where there is a safety problem beyond
any that you already have with any portable generator. Maybe
I'm missing something. Can anyone here see some safety issue
I'm missing? And note I'm not saying you should wire it that
way, it's a code violation. I'm just wondering why, ie what's
the hazard that exists, what have I missed?


I would not recommended cutting the ground (green) wire in the connecting cable. If there should be an open fault in the neutral wire, the frame of the generator will become energized via the load and this is obviously VERY dangerous.


there are 2 problems of having the neutral and ground bonded both at the house panel and at the generator.

1) if the generator has a GFI, it will trip.
this is obviously an operational problem.

2) some load current will flow in the ground (green) wire. It will be shared by the neutral (white) wire and the ground (green) wire. This is a code issue but not an actual safety issue that I can see.

If there is no GFI involved, then there not really any safety issue. Just let it be bonded at both places. Its the GFI that makes it more complicated.

mark
As simple as it is to "break" the generator bond, and even easier to
rebond when required, it should be a total no-brainer to make it meet
code.

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:52:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




I've been thinking more about the whole issue of whether the neutral
is connected at the generator or not. From what I see, the code issue
is clear, that unless you switch the neutral at the transfer switch,
then the neutral and ground cannot be connected at the generator.
And if you do switch it, then you need a code compliant grounding
system for the generator.

But the next question is, why is this and what are the possible safety
implications if you didn't follow it. Note that I'm not saying you
shouldn't follow the code, just trying to figure out what the
possible scenarios are, what the code is trying to do, what goes
wrong if you don't follow it. In other words, I was trying to figure
out the physics and what the safety issues are.

If you have the neutral and ground connected at both the panel and
the generator and use a 4 wire cord, then as I pointed out
previously you have three paths for neutral current to flow between
the house and generator:

1 - Via the neutral conductor

2 - Via the ground wire

3 - through the earth

Suppose instead you eliminate the ground wire in the cord. Then
you have the neutral and ground connected at the house and at
the generator. This is exactly how the power company service
is wired in. I was trying to think what can go wrong here,
what is inherently unsafe about wiring it that way. I can't
think of a scenario where there is a safety problem beyond
any that you already have with any portable generator. Maybe
I'm missing something. Can anyone here see some safety issue
I'm missing? And note I'm not saying you should wire it that
way, it's a code violation. I'm just wondering why, ie what's
the hazard that exists, what have I missed?


I would not recommended cutting the ground (green) wire in the connecting cable. If there should be an open fault in the neutral wire, the frame of the generator will become energized via the load and this is obviously VERY dangerous.


there are 2 problems of having the neutral and ground bonded both at the house panel and at the generator.

1) if the generator has a GFI, it will trip.
this is obviously an operational problem.

2) some load current will flow in the ground (green) wire. It will be shared by the neutral (white) wire and the ground (green) wire. This is a code issue but not an actual safety issue that I can see.

If there is no GFI involved, then there not really any safety issue. Just let it be bonded at both places. Its the GFI that makes it more complicated.

mark
As simple as it is to "break" the generator bond, and even easier to
rebond when required, it should be a total no-brainer to make it meet
code.

I'm not sure it's that simple or that safe. For starters, I would think
that the generator is UL listed and unless it specifically designed to
have the neutral disconnected from the frame, I would think that making
that modification means it's no longer UL listed eqpt. Does that meet
code now? IMO, to be code compliant you'd have to make sure your
generator provides for the neutral to be disconnected. How many do,
IDK. The OP, it doesn't sound like his manual says anything about it.

Also, most people using these portables as emergency house power also
want to use them for other purposes, eg powering tools outside,
lighting, taking them camping, etc. For that use, the neutral must
be bonded to the ground/frame. So now what? Re-connect it each
time? Remember to re-connect? Put a switch in?
That creates obvious problems, because now you're relying on humans.

Even worse, IMO, is to make it code legal by switching the neutral,
because that then requires that the generator be properly earthed
and what are the chances that's going to happen? You need a proper
earthing system and someone to remember to make that connection too
when it's rolled out to be used.


I can tell you one thing. There are a lot of people hooking these up
with 3 conductor plus ground cords either via a transfer switch or
suicide cord. And I bet almost none of them know whether the generator
has it's neutral bonded to ground or not. I'd venture a guess that
most of them are bonded to ground and that they work because they
are using a non-GFCI receptacle.

I can tell you one thing. There are a lot of people hooking these up
with 3 conductor plus ground cords either via a transfer switch or
suicide cord. And I bet almost none of them know whether the generator
has it's neutral bonded to ground or not. I'd venture a guess that
most of them are bonded to ground and that they work because they
are using a non-GFCI receptacle.

agree..

it is the GFI on the generator that makes it more complicated.

maybe thats another solution.

Rewire ONE outlet on the generator to be non GFI. Use that outlet only to feed the house and mark it clearly.

Use the other unmodified outlets with GFI for stand alone operation.

I think i like it.

m

I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They jumper neutral to ground at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an interlockit installation.

I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes. This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only. It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral ironically.

I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread), I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new torx drivers to get at this area, so

I can tell you one thing. There are a lot of people hooking these up
with 3 conductor plus ground cords either via a transfer switch or
suicide cord. And I bet almost none of them know whether the generator
has it's neutral bonded to ground or not. I'd venture a guess that
most of them are bonded to ground and that they work because they
are using a non-GFCI receptacle.


agree..
it is the GFI on the generator that makes it more complicated.
maybe thats another solution.
Rewire ONE outlet on the generator to be non GFI.
Use that outlet only to feed the house and mark it clearly.
Use the other unmodified outlets with GFI for stand alone operation.
I think i like it.
m


All this re-hashed discussion and complicated "solutions"
.. for a non problem. Code-schmode - my generator
comes out once or twice a year for grid power outages
and works just fine as is.
.... that reminds me - I haven't tested it lately ..
John T.

Warning! Always wear ANSI approved safety goggles when reading posts by
Checkmate! In article , burkesgurlz@std-
girls.com says...



On 9/14/2017 6:55 AM, wrote:
I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They jumper neutral to ground at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an interlockit installation.

I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes. This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only. It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral ironically.

I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread), I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new torx drivers to get at this area, so



Boy! All that fancy lingo sure makes one appear to know what he/she is talking about.
The question is, do he?
LOL

Although they're both grounded conductors, the neutral and ground are
only bonded together in certain conditions, like at the original source
of the electrical service. Since a GFI plug normally expects to see the
same amount of current flow on the neutral as it does on the hot side,
current going to ground and bypassing the neutral will trip it. How bou
DAT?

--
Another hand-crafted post from...
Checkmate
Usenet author, poet, comedian, and philosopher.
Copyright © 2017
all rights reserved

Please visit me at alt.checkmate, the new
go-to group for the discerning troll...

In loving memory of The Battle Kitten
May 2010-February 12, 2017

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 11:27:33 AM UTC-4, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:
Warning! Always wear ANSI approved safety goggles when reading posts by
Checkmate! In article , burkesgurlz@std-
girls.com says...



On 9/14/2017 6:55 AM, wrote:
I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They jumper neutral to ground at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an interlockit installation.

I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes. This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only. It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral ironically.

I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread), I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new torx drivers to get at this area, so



Boy! All that fancy lingo sure makes one appear to know what he/she is talking about.
The question is, do he?
LOL

Although they're both grounded conductors, the neutral and ground are
only bonded together in certain conditions, like at the original source
of the electrical service. Since a GFI plug normally expects to see the
same amount of current flow on the neutral as it does on the hot side,
current going to ground and bypassing the neutral will trip it. How bou
DAT?


What about it? It has already been discussed here in the thread,
right from the start.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:27:24 -0700, LO AND BEHOLD; ""💩, DoW #1"
" determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
:

Warning! Always wear ANSI approved safety goggles when reading posts by
💩! In article , burkesgurlz@std-
girls.com says...


On 9/14/2017 6:55 AM, wrote:
I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs
website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They SPNAK!er neutral to ground
at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other
duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was
planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an
interlockit installation. I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes.
This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only.
It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little
it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral
ironically. I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a
different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone
else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread),
I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new
torx drivers to get at this area, so
Boy! All that fancy lingo sure makes one appear to know what he/she is
talking about. The question is, do he? LOL

Although they're both grounded conductors, the neutral and ground are
only bonded together in certain conditions, like at the original
source of the electrical service. Since a GFI plug normally expects to
see the same amount of current flow on the neutral as it does on the
hot side, current going to ground and bypassing the neutral will trip
it. How bou DAT?


yeah but...

can you draw a sine wave?

--
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6B8jGSdLA

-

"You just made puppy whistle's sig line longer." - Janithor

-

"If I have a complaint about the (Southern Poverty) Law Center's description (of the alt-right movement), it is the phrase "heavy use of social media," which implies the alt-right is a real-world movement which uses a lot of social media. This is backwards: it is an online movement which occasionally appears in the real world. Where it gets punched." - Jason Rhode

-

"I think we should destroy every last ****ing mosque in America." - "Checkmate, DoW #1" proves for us that white males are violent in Message-ID:

-

Golden Killfile, June 2005
KOTM, November 2006
Bob Allisat Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, November 2006
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Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, September 2007
Tony Sidaway Memorial "Drama Queen" Award, November 2006
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Warning! Always wear ANSI approved safety goggles when reading posts by
Checkmate! In article , burkesgurlz@std-
girls.com says...



On 9/14/2017 8:27 AM, Checkmate, DoW #1 wrote:
Warning! Always wear ANSI approved safety goggles when reading posts by
Checkmate! In article , burkesgurlz@std-
girls.com says...



On 9/14/2017 6:55 AM, wrote:
I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They jumper neutral to ground at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an interlockit installation.

I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes. This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only. It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral ironically.

I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread), I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new torx drivers to get at this area, so



Boy! All that fancy lingo sure makes one appear to know what he/she is talking about.
The question is, do he?
LOL

Although they're both grounded conductors, the neutral and ground are
only bonded together in certain conditions, like at the original source
of the electrical service. Since a GFI plug normally expects to see the
same amount of current flow on the neutral as it does on the hot side,
current going to ground and bypassing the neutral will trip it. How bou
DAT?

I don't understand one gawddamn thing!

That's the way we elektrishuns like it.

--
Another hand-crafted post from...
Checkmate
Usenet author, poet, comedian, and philosopher.
Copyright © 2017
all rights reserved

Please visit me at alt.checkmate, the new
go-to group for the discerning troll...

In loving memory of The Battle Kitten
May 2010-February 12, 2017

All this re-hashed discussion and complicated "solutions"
.. for a non problem. Code-schmode - my generator
comes out once or twice a year for grid power outages
and works just fine as is.


it is a non problem, unless your generator has a GFI

m

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:13:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:




I can tell you one thing. There are a lot of people hooking these up
with 3 conductor plus ground cords either via a transfer switch or
suicide cord. And I bet almost none of them know whether the generator
has it's neutral bonded to ground or not. I'd venture a guess that
most of them are bonded to ground and that they work because they
are using a non-GFCI receptacle.

agree..

it is the GFI on the generator that makes it more complicated.

maybe thats another solution.

Rewire ONE outlet on the generator to be non GFI. Use that outlet only to feed the house and mark it clearly.

Use the other unmodified outlets with GFI for stand alone operation.

I think i like it.

m
A heck of a lot easier to just remove or switch the bond -- but some
people just HAVE to make life difficult

On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 06:55:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I found the connection on a schematic for my model on the Briggs website. It's on a 120VAC GFI outlet. They jumper neutral to ground at duplex outlet #2 and then that neutral line is shared with the other duplex 120V GFI outlet and the 240V 4-wire outlet (non-GFI). I was planning to use this to connect to the house...now thinking an interlockit installation.

I'm just going to un-bond it for my purposes. This is a big heavy troy-bilt job....it's for power outages only. It's not going tailgating with anyone. Although after looking a little it appears alot of those quiet inverter generators are floating neutral ironically.

I'll just re-bond the neutral if I ever use it in a different manner, or ever upgrade and give/sell this thing to someone else. Because I'm doing the work and research (including this thread), I don't suspect I'll forget about it. I'm going to have to buy some new torx drivers to get at this area, so


Just grab a 3 wire plug and put a wire from the neutral to the ground.
Tie it to the generatoe and label it "bond". Plug into one outlet when
you need a "bonded" generator.

Speak English then, because I do.

Between my meter and my house main panel is a disconnect, installed when they upgraded the panel.

Does that disconnect switch just the hots, or the neutral too?

Because if I pull that disconnect and am totally off the grid, I'm not going to endanger any linemen if I put a generator in my system, correctly or not.

But if the neutral is still connected, is there a risk?

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 9:31:30 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
Between my meter and my house main panel is a disconnect, installed when they upgraded the panel.

Does that disconnect switch just the hots, or the neutral too?

No


Because if I pull that disconnect and am totally off the grid, I'm not going to endanger any linemen if I put a generator in my system, correctly or not.

But if the neutral is still connected, is there a risk?

I can't see a risk, no matter what you do. If you tried to energize the neutral with an alternate power source what would the return path be between there and the utility? The only possible path would be the earth and that's tied to the neutral. It would be like connecting one wire to one terminal of a battery.

On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 10:46:53 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 9:31:30 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
Between my meter and my house main panel is a disconnect, installed when they upgraded the panel.

Does that disconnect switch just the hots, or the neutral too?

No


Make that no, the neutral is not switched.






Because if I pull that disconnect and am totally off the grid, I'm not going to endanger any linemen if I put a generator in my system, correctly or not.

But if the neutral is still connected, is there a risk?

I can't see a risk, no matter what you do. If you tried to energize the neutral with an alternate power source what would the return path be between there and the utility? The only possible path would be the earth and that's tied to the neutral. It would be like connecting one wire to one terminal of a battery.