I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

av wrote:
....

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

It is not so simple as that.

For the most part you were only addressing the issue of the color
formula. That is only part of the process. There is also the a paint
formula. A change in the paint formula can require a change in the color
formula and even then it may not be an exact match. In addition to the
color, the finish may change and that may make the color appear different.

Paint formulas change for any number of reasons. Cost of materials is
one. If one ingredient goes up in price or another goes down, it may be
possible to make some changes in the formula with no loss of quality and may
help them avoid a price increase. Customer demand also causes changes to
the paint formula. For example many paints have become much more washable
in the past few years. Government restrictions on formulas also may force
changes.

Color formulas also tend to change. The color materials may change or
newer mixing machines may result in new formula since the metering will be
different. New color match systems seemed to have changed things.

Frankly if all they wanted to do was save a few dollars on tint, all
they would have had to do is to thin down the tint and leave the formulas
the same.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Call Behr but i will say it is their fault color changes are noted with
other companys, you asked for the paint color get it. There may not
have been a change just a mistake, it happens everyday when alot of
paint is mixed, bottom line its your fault for not checking the color,
but you will get a free gallon .

You idea on colorant and costs make no sence

Even if you buy 2 cans of any brand paint from the same batch the same day,
if you want a perfect match you need to blend them. Even if the formulars
were identical there was just about a zero chance of a perfect match with
the old batch.

Ive dealt with Ben Moore alot and their Satin Impervo line has the same
colors or refrenced to for 20 yrs. Sheen is also the same. But I can see
changes on more consumer lines lines being the norm. but who knows,
Behr does.

The paint colourant dispensing machines used for domestic or consumer sales
are not precise. The colourant is not always stirred before each use, the
method of measuring the colourant may induce a bubble and result in a little
short on a particular colour, the size of colourant "shots" is not a very
fine calibration.

In the 1950's, I worked in my fathers auto painting shop. We had a paint
colourant system that was supplied by a major Canadian paint manufacturer.
It used a float that sat in a gallon can. The colourant was hand dispensed
but the float operated a needle on a scale. It could measure the level of
the paint to a thousandth of an inch. Colours were precise and repeatable
not like the rough measurements used in paint stores.

Anything from a paint store or paint department will depend on the person
mixing the colours. Some are good, others don't care and rush through it.
Each can could be different and need mixing together to get one colour.

"Art" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Even if you buy 2 cans of any brand paint from the same batch the same
day,
if you want a perfect match you need to blend them. Even if the formulars
were identical there was just about a zero chance of a perfect match with
the old batch.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

Sure, Behr might've changed the formula, and there are always variations
in mixing.

But, unless you're really really interested in paint industry practices,
this original forumula is all you really need. Or, the better solution:
HD will "color match" any sample you bring in (with a
spectrophotometer). They will also take back any mostly-unused paint
you bring them, with or without a receipt. No worries.

JSH

You really have no problem.
Take the can of Behr back to the Home Depot returns desk. Tell them the
color didn't match up. Get your credit or cash.
Walk over to the paint desk with the OLD formula you shared here. Ask them
to manually spec that formula into whatever surface sheen you want.
No supervisor or management approval required.


"av" wrote in message
...
I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

"Eric Tonks" etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote in message
isi.com...
The paint colourant dispensing machines used for domestic or consumer
sales
are not precise. The colourant is not always stirred before each use, the
method of measuring the colourant may induce a bubble and result in a
little
short on a particular colour, the size of colourant "shots" is not a very
fine calibration.

In the 1950's, I worked in my fathers auto painting shop. We had a paint
colourant system that was supplied by a major Canadian paint manufacturer.
It used a float that sat in a gallon can. The colourant was hand dispensed
but the float operated a needle on a scale. It could measure the level of
the paint to a thousandth of an inch. Colours were precise and repeatable
not like the rough measurements used in paint stores.

Anything from a paint store or paint department will depend on the person
mixing the colours. Some are good, others don't care and rush through it.
Each can could be different and need mixing together to get one colour.

most of the home depot's i've been in recently have a computer controlled
system. the user simply punches in the correct color code number, puts the
can under the spout, and stands back.

"Art" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Even if you buy 2 cans of any brand paint from the same batch the same
day,
if you want a perfect match you need to blend them. Even if the
formulars
were identical there was just about a zero chance of a perfect match
with
the old batch.

On 1 Jul 2004 06:56:13 -0700, (av) wrote:

I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

Hasn't it ocurred to anyone that painted surfaces also weather and may
be bleached unevenly, or be darkened by mildew and dirt. Modern paint
colors are pretty stable but still not as sensitive as our color
vision.

I recall this story from an old Readers' Digest, a time before
computers were even found in paint production factories.

A house painter was being driven up the wall by the lady of the house.
She wanted a tint of green for her wall to match the green of a
picture frame she admired. Despite a growing collection of paint mixes
nothing could match her expectations. Finally the old hand came in
and asked what was the problem? He got the younger painter and the
lady out on an errand while he mixed a new batch. By the time they
came back the lady was delighted that the paint color finally matched.

Our young man was impressed. "What did you do to mix the match?"

"I didn't. I painted the frame."

"Julie" wrote in message ...
PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

Sure, Behr might've changed the formula, and there are always variations
in mixing.

But, unless you're really really interested in paint industry practices,
this original forumula is all you really need. Or, the better solution:
HD will "color match" any sample you bring in (with a
spectrophotometer). They will also take back any mostly-unused paint
you bring them, with or without a receipt. No worries.

JSH

You must have skipped the part where I said that all I had at the time
of the purchase of the second gallon was just the name AND the
assurance from HD that they had the formula in their computer. This
isn't so much a question as to why the formula was changed (altho'
that has been a question for me) but rather why they didn't tell me
about the change. And for that matter why they are changing a formula
of a color that they dont even feature any more! Yes, of course, NOW
that I realize that these formulas aren't cast in stone against the
name of the paint, I'll hang onto the numbers.

I'm also glad that you think so highly of HD service. Im now waiting
yet a second time (after a second call) for the Paint Dept supervisor
to call me back. Yes it will all be resolved one way or another, but
I'm sure going through alot for what should be a rather clear,
rudimentary procedure.


Also, to the poster above who was trying to teach me about color
matching, that is not the point of this post. Frankly, if at least the
numbers had matched in the formula, I really really doubt that there
would be as drastic a color change as that I have on my hands. There
is a difference between slight and obvious.

Thanks to everyone else so far for their input.
av

"Julie" wrote in message ...
PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

Sure, Behr might've changed the formula, and there are always variations
in mixing.

But, unless you're really really interested in paint industry practices,
this original forumula is all you really need. Or, the better solution:
HD will "color match" any sample you bring in (with a
spectrophotometer). They will also take back any mostly-unused paint
you bring them, with or without a receipt. No worries.

JSH

You must have skipped the part where I said that all I had at the time
of the purchase of the second gallon was just the name AND the
assurance from HD that they had the formula in their computer. This
isn't so much a question as to why the formula was changed (altho'
that has been a question for me) but rather why they didn't tell me
about the change. And for that matter why they are changing a formula
of a color that they dont even feature any more! Yes, of course, NOW
that I realize that these formulas aren't cast in stone against the
name of the paint, I'll hang onto the numbers.

I'm also glad that you think so highly of HD service. Im now waiting
yet a second time (after a second call) for the Paint Dept supervisor
to call me back. Yes it will all be resolved one way or another, but
I'm sure going through alot for what should be a rather clear,
rudimentary procedure.


Also, to the poster above who was trying to teach me about color
matching, that is not the point of this post. Frankly, if at least the
numbers had matched in the formula, I really really doubt that there
would be as drastic a color change as that I have on my hands. There
is a difference between slight and obvious.

Thanks to everyone else so far for their input.
av

"Curmudgeon" wrote in message ...
You really have no problem.
Take the can of Behr back to the Home Depot returns desk. Tell them the
color didn't match up. Get your credit or cash.
Walk over to the paint desk with the OLD formula you shared here. Ask them
to manually spec that formula into whatever surface sheen you want.
No supervisor or management approval required.


You know, I like your thinking. Simple and sweet. You think having a
quart used out of the gallon is going to raise eyebrows though? )

av

av wrote:

I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

First you should have looked harder for the original can of paint and
painted a card to be matched. But, why get upset, if you don't like
the paint, take it back for a refund! Doesn't have to be anything
wrong or a mistake; the only reason you need is that you don't like
it.
All the rest that they told you sounds like nonsense as is your idea
that they would save money by using less colorant.

Take the gallon back for a refund. Have them match the old paint if
that is what you want. It's not a problem.

av writes:

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

Paint technology as both a consumer item and trade item is besotted with
ignorance, because that's what appeals to most people, such as calling
colors "French Blue" and the like. It's nothing but a proportion of
various chemical pigments. They should specify and sell it that way. But
no woman is going to buy a lamp black, thalo blue, and magenta blend when
she can have "French Blue".

Most people have no idea what "latex" means in paint. They think it has
something to do with rubber.

In article , av
wrote:

I'm also glad that you think so highly of HD service. Im now waiting
yet a second time (after a second call) for the Paint Dept supervisor
to call me back. Yes it will all be resolved one way or another, but
I'm sure going through alot for what should be a rather clear,
rudimentary procedure.



I dunno about YOUR HD but mine lets you return plants if they croak
within a year. (I've been wondering how they will handle annuals-I have
entertained myself with visions of digging up all my faded annuals at
the end of the year and returning them for store credit).

Hard to imagine paint is a problem, although it's unclear why you'd
need a quart to figure out it didn't match.

On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:56:13 AM UTC-4, av wrote:
I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:56:13 AM UTC-4, av wrote:
I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

I work for a paint company, so I was the subject of all chemical compositions in paints react differently to different colorants, what I mean is that if you sold them a different line of paint (different than the original ) should not necessarily apply the same formula and / or colorants, ask them to comply with (2 units Magneta and 4 Thalo blue) but do not guarantee the results, because unknown to the chemical values of the two paintings, the same problem try in our company almost daily, by state regulations, we have improved the quality of our products by eliminating chemical contaminants, that in turn affects the reaction of the dyes in the new base to the extent that we have to adjust the formula to achieve the former colors. we recommend you repaint.

Please get a real news reader and get off of
Google Groups. Do you understand that this is
Usenet? Do you know what Usenet is? If not
then please look it up. You're responding to
a 10-year-old post.

Google Groups is just a
hard-to-use webpage copy of Usenet posts.
Usenet is not designed for webpages. If you
get a real news reader you'll find it easer to
use and you won't be trying to talk to people
who've been gone for 10 years.


wrote in message
...
On Thursday, July 1, 2004 9:56:13 AM UTC-4, av wrote:
I have a question about paint formulas. I have a feeling when I
mention the manufacturer and/or the store, alot of you out there will
say "oh well no wonder" or something nice like that. I'd appreciate it
if you'd try and be as objective as possible in answering. We all have
our attitudes... including me.

I bought a gallon of interior trim Behr (oooh no wonder!) paint from
Home Depot (oooh say no more!) a couple of years ago. Used it for my
window trim, and then the following year, when I finshed with *part*
of a porch addition, did the window trim with the same paint. And
*then* the year after that when I finished the wall trim, couldn't
find the paint. I figured I must've finished it up. I remembered the
name, French Blue, was forgetting if it was Behr or not and called HD
up to be verify it. They said, yes there was a French Blue in the Behr
interior line, but it was an older paint and didn't carry it as part
of their regular line any longer. But not to worry, he said, because
they keep all the formulas in the computer and all they had to do was
spit it out.

So I went in and got a gallon.

Immediately upon painting I noticed a rather drastic difference betw
the previous year's painting and this one. I first thought, ok, this
just has to dry. Then it dried and was still looking very different,
and I thought, ok, maybe the paint is photoreactive and last year's
paint darkened somewhat. In about a year, everything will even out.
But when I finished the job, I just wasnt sure about that conclusion.

Then I found the "lost" can of paint from the previous year. I
compared the formulas, and found a very slight difference, but a
difference nonetheless.

PREVIOUS PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 20 0
Magenta 0 26 0

CURRENT PAINT FORMULA

colorant oz 48 96
Lamp Black 0 28 0
Thalo Blue 1 16 0
Magenta 0 24 0

You'll notice the lower numbers for the Thalo Blue and Magenta, which
would, if nothing else, explain the lighther color.

So I called Home Depot and asked for an explanation. She (same lady
who mixed it) said that Behr is "always changing its formulas". When I
asked why? What sense does that make? She had an oblique answer by
saying "when you came in I was a bit worried about mixing this up for
you" thus cleverly making it more into my problem. I said that I had
called them, said I had bought the paint a couple years ago, that the
fellow said they kept the formula and no one said anything whatsoever
about changed formulas.

Now, after a week and a day, I'm still waiting for her supervisor to
get back to me (even though she said they'd do anything to help remedy
the problem). I expect after a small exchange of gunfire, I'll come
away with a gallon of paint, but it all just left me wondering. Is
this normal? Do manufacturers change formulas at will and without
notice? I called another dealer and he gave a qualified yes, saying
that sometimes they might "consolidate the bases, like from 5 to 4
bases". But he himself hadn't seen just a change of numbers. And this
change with my paint has had nothing to do with Base changes.

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av

I work for a paint company, so I was the subject of all chemical
compositions in paints react differently to different colorants, what I mean
is that if you sold them a different line of paint (different than the
original ) should not necessarily apply the same formula and / or colorants,
ask them to comply with (2 units Magneta and 4 Thalo blue) but do not
guarantee the results, because unknown to the chemical values of the two
paintings, the same problem try in our company almost daily, by state
regulations, we have improved the quality of our products by eliminating
chemical contaminants, that in turn affects the reaction of the dyes in the
new base to the extent that we have to adjust the formula to achieve the
former colors. we recommend you repaint.

On Monday, May 26, 2014 3:30:33 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
Please get a real news reader and get off of

Google Groups. Do you understand that this is

Usenet? Do you know what Usenet is? If not

then please look it up. You're responding to

a 10-year-old post.


Here we go again. I use GG and I don't have any problem
in not replying to 10 year old posts. It's the operator,
not the tool. Do you understand that different people
have different usage models and just because you like
your solution, it doesn't mean that other folks who prefer
other solutions need to change.

| Here we go again. I use GG and I don't have any problem
| in not replying to 10 year old posts. It's the operator,
| not the tool. Do you understand that different people
| have different usage models and just because you like
| your solution, it doesn't mean that other folks who prefer
| other solutions need to change.

I've never seen anyone respond to old posts who
wasn't using Google groups. If you like it that's up
to you, but webpage format is a very poor subsstitute
for a newsreader. And people are misled. You may
understand Usenet but many people don't. They find
Google Groups online and then they think they're in
a forum. They need to understand how it all works.

On Monday, May 26, 2014 9:26:08 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| Here we go again. I use GG and I don't have any problem

| in not replying to 10 year old posts. It's the operator,

| not the tool. Do you understand that different people

| have different usage models and just because you like

| your solution, it doesn't mean that other folks who prefer

| other solutions need to change.



I've never seen anyone respond to old posts who

wasn't using Google groups. If you like it that's up

to you, but webpage format is a very poor subsstitute

for a newsreader.

And why exactly is that? It works perfectly find for me.
And I can use it at any computer I want, not just the one
I have a newsreader installed on.



And people are misled.

Mislead by what exactly? And even if they are, why
do you care?



You may

understand Usenet but many people don't. They find

Google Groups online and then they think they're in

a forum. They need to understand how it all works.

No, they just need to be able to use it. And any damn fool
can respond to a 10 year old post with a newsreader too.

A couple days ago you were here bitching because someone
put down Windows, claiming Linux was so superior and the
only right solution. Now you're doing the same thing,
****ing and moaning about GG.

| And people are misled.
|
| Mislead by what exactly? And even if they are, why
| do you care?
|
Misled by the webpage format, not understanding
how Usenet works. I care because it wastes everyones'
time for people to answer 10 year old posts. Not least
of which is the person posting. Assuming cerda28 was
writing a sincere post, they've wasted their time more
than anyone else has. Why shouldn't I tell them?

| No, they just need to be able to use it. And any damn fool
| can respond to a 10 year old post with a newsreader too.
|

I don't assume the GG users are "damn fools". I'm guessing
it's simply a case of their only knowing Usenet through Google
reprints, so they neither understand how Usenet works nor
realize how awkward webpage format is for the medium. A lot
of younger people, especially, have never actually seen Usenet
in its real form, as a distinct protocol from http.

And I don't see how even a "damn fool" could respond to
a 10-year-old post using a newsreader. A newsreader displays
recent posts. Mine defaults to the most recent 300. If I could
see a post from 2004 it would probably take me 10 minutes
just to scroll that far. But I wouldn't, because the posts are
in order, so I could see perfectly well that those posts date
to 2004!
Have you ever used a newsreader yourself? They show
current posts, highlighting the ones you haven't read. They also
display in a "treeview", showing the order of posts in a thread,
so that people don't have to keep reposting the whole thread.
The layout provides a clear, immediate, graphical view of all
active conversations.
Webpage format flattens that into a long series of posts, with
no clear way to see who was posting to whom, and no way
to display the structure of posts in a thread. In short, newsreaders
are especially designed for Usenet. You might want to try one
out. I think you'll find they're far more appropriate than a
webpage layout, just as a Windows Explorer treeview is far
easier to work with than it would be to have a simple listbox,
listing every file on your computer in a single, long list.

| A couple days ago you were here bitching because someone
| put down Windows, claiming Linux was so superior and the
| only right solution.

As I recall you were agreeing with me. I wasn't "bitching".
He was making a cheap dig about Windows, but I wasn't
answering to that. I answered him because he was wrong
and his post was potentially misleading to the OP, implying that
Linux held the solution to the OP's dilemma.

| Now you're doing the same thing,
| ****ing and moaning about GG.

Bitching and ****ing and moaning? Do you feel you need
to stand up for GG? Do you really think it's better to just
leave cerda28 in ignorance? You're not doing him/her
any favors by not saying anything. If you were wasting
your time writing to people who aren't there, wouldn't you
want to be told?

(We might all start writing to people who aren't there one
of these days, but at least we don't have to do it while we
can still think clearly.

clipped

The cynic in me says that if Behr just lowers a couple of notches in
the amount of colorant they put in each gallon, keeping the price the
same, (or for that matter forced to lower the price by HD) they can
keep costs under control. Does that sound plausible?

thanks in advance for replies
av


I think it is rather fruitless to try to find a match going by color
NAME....there are only so many names to slap on a can. Good idea to
keep a log of color formulas you have used, as that is the best way to
find a match. That said, there is bound to be some variation in brands
or batches of tinting pigments. Bringing in a sample of the color to be
matched is best....a good paint dept./store will mix the color, take a
sample and DRY it, then adjust accordingly. And after all that, if
using different batches of paint, mix them whenever possible before the
first is depleted so that if there is a slight variation they will be
blended.

It is a mystery to me how "fashion trends" are decided a year or two in
advance of producing products (paint, wallpaper, furniture, fabric,
etc.), but that is how it goes. Behr and everyone else likely pay a lot
of attention to which colors are selling and which are not.

Cerda,

The actual color that a paint dries to varies. Different lots made on
different days are different colors. Your expectation that you would get a
color match was unrealistic.

Dave M.

On Monday, May 26, 2014 10:20:30 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| And people are misled.

|

| Mislead by what exactly? And even if they are, why

| do you care?

|

Misled by the webpage format, not understanding

how Usenet works. I care because it wastes everyones'

time for people to answer 10 year old posts.

I'm using GG right now. It clearly shows that this post you just
made was on May 26, 11 hours ago. It's part of the header displayed.
It also clearly says that the old post that the person responded to
yesterday was made 7/2/04.




Not least

of which is the person posting. Assuming cerda28 was

writing a sincere post, they've wasted their time more

than anyone else has. Why shouldn't I tell them?


I didn't say you shouldn't tell them. I said that you shouldn't
be slamming and blaming GG, because it's an operator error, that
has nothing to do with GG. Got it now?




| No, they just need to be able to use it. And any damn fool

| can respond to a 10 year old post with a newsreader too.

|



I don't assume the GG users are "damn fools". I'm guessing

it's simply a case of their only knowing Usenet through Google

reprints, so they neither understand how Usenet works nor

realize how awkward webpage format is for the medium.

And a lot of them don't give a damn how usenet works. They
go searching for something, see something and make a post. Maybe
they do that once in 10 years, maybe it's their first time.
But according to you, they have to understand how usenet works
and need to find and install a newsreader, instead of using GG.
Every one of these people that I see, makes one post and that's
it. They probably were Googling for something, saw a post, made
a reply via GG. They may not do it again for 5 years. But according
to you, they are supposed to learn how usenet works, figure out
which newsreader they want to use, install it? Really?


A lot

of younger people, especially, have never actually seen Usenet

in its real form, as a distinct protocol from http.


Irrelevant, especially for someone that makes one post a year.
And I think that's what you're seeing.







And I don't see how even a "damn fool" could respond to

a 10-year-old post using a newsreader. A newsreader displays

recent posts. Mine defaults to the most recent 300. If I could

see a post from 2004 it would probably take me 10 minutes

just to scroll that far. But I wouldn't, because the posts are

in order, so I could see perfectly well that those posts date

to 2004!

The posts are in order on GG and the date is clearly stated.
Obviously you don't even use GG and don't know what it does. And
they almost certainly are not finding old posts by scrolling, they
are likely finding them via a search engine, eg Google.




Have you ever used a newsreader yourself? They show

current posts, highlighting the ones you haven't read. They also

display in a "treeview", showing the order of posts in a thread,

so that people don't have to keep reposting the whole thread.

The layout provides a clear, immediate, graphical view of all

active conversations.

I have no problem following everything on GG. I'm here communicating
everyday.




Webpage format flattens that into a long series of posts, with

no clear way to see who was posting to whom, and no way

to display the structure of posts in a thread. In short, newsreaders

are especially designed for Usenet. You might want to try one

out.

I have used them. You might want to stop bitching about what
other people use, which has *nothing* to do with the problem.
The date of that 7/02/04 post is clearly diplayed in GG.

The tree feature is nice, but you ignore the significant advantages that GG
has. I can use it from any computer, anywhere without having to
put special software on it. You can't do that with your newsreader.
Am I going to slam it because of that, tell you it's a piece of crap?
No.




I think you'll find they're far more appropriate than a

webpage layout, just as a Windows Explorer treeview is far

easier to work with than it would be to have a simple listbox,

listing every file on your computer in a single, long list.



| A couple days ago you were here bitching because someone

| put down Windows, claiming Linux was so superior and the

| only right solution.



As I recall you were agreeing with me. I wasn't "bitching".

He was making a cheap dig about Windows, but I wasn't

answering to that. I answered him because he was wrong

and his post was potentially misleading to the OP, implying that

Linux held the solution to the OP's dilemma.


And you're now doing *exactly* what he did. You're on your
soap box, bitching about how GG sucks and how what you use is
so superior. He did the same thing, slamming Windows in favor
of Linux. He was wrong, so are you.






| Now you're doing the same thing,

| ****ing and moaning about GG.



Bitching and ****ing and moaning? Do you feel you need

to stand up for GG?

Yes, just as much as you need to put it and those that use
it down.




Do you really think it's better to just

leave cerda28 in ignorance?

Good grief. I had no problem with you telling him that the
post was 10 years old. It's you laying off the problem on GG
that I take issue with. And I doubt he's even going to see
your response anyway. He's most likely not following the group.
He probably did a search, found that old post, responded to it
and he's done. Can you show us one of these one hit wonders
that started making regular posts? Or even made more than the
one post?




You're not doing him/her

any favors by not saying anything. If you were wasting

your time writing to people who aren't there, wouldn't you

want to be told?


Deflection noted. Deflection rejected.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 08:11:37 -0400, "David Martel"
wrote:

Cerda,

The actual color that a paint dries to varies. Different lots made on
different days are different colors. Your expectation that you would get a
color match was unrealistic.

Dave M.
In my experience if it has the same code, the mix matches even
several years later - but if, as was intimated, they changed the BASE
used, the formula will also change, and the colour match will be a
real crapshoot. I'd try having the paint store ad the missing parts
of toner to match the original formula and see what happens.

"trader_4" wrote in message
news:338a6d93-2514-4e6b-88f4-

stuff snipped

And a lot of them don't give a damn how usenet works. They
go searching for something, see something and make a post. Maybe
they do that once in 10 years, maybe it's their first time.
But according to you, they have to understand how usenet works
and need to find and install a newsreader, instead of using GG.
Every one of these people that I see, makes one post and that's
it. They probably were Googling for something, saw a post, made
a reply via GG. They may not do it again for 5 years. But according
to you, they are supposed to learn how usenet works, figure out
which newsreader they want to use, install it? Really?

Agreed.

Way back when the Univacs ruled the world, my CompSci professor addressed
this very question in another form. He asked us "should a carpenter have to
know electric motor theory and design to be able to use a power drill?" Of
course not. Yet we often expect computer users to need to know a lot more
about the technology of computers than they have to in order to get a simple
job done.

It's why I always smile a bit when Linux is proposed as an alternative to
Windows. Some people say "Windows is like driving with an automatic
transmission and Linux is like driving a stickshift" but the reality is that
Linux is like driving a Formula One race car where nearly all operation are
carried out through the controls on the steering wheel. It's a very, very
different paradigm. The auto/stick analogy is perhaps better suited to
comparing Macs to PCs where PC's are the stickshift.

Why should we expect a person with a question he wants answered to care a
whit about newsreaders, Usenet, threads, etc? All they really want is to
have their question answered and sites like Google and DIY banter have
evolved to allow them to do that without having to learn how to acquire,
configure and use a newsreader.

Yet it seems to be a source of great consternation for those who instead of
welcoming a new poster who comes to us through Homeowner's Hub or such other
portals, bash them for not "praying properly" to the great Usenet god.
Ironically some of the bashers seem to be quite religious types. It makes
it easy to understand the phrase "For religion is the greatest inspirer of
hatred the world has ever seen, and it shows no sign of losing that
character in its old age. (Mencken - 1928) Change "religion" to "dogmatic
thought" and the results are pretty much identical.

Lots of people post questions from their work enviroment and may not even be
able to use a standard newsreader because those ports are blocked. My chief
complaint with GG is that it seems to add blank lines for no particular
reason and responding to a GG post often involves tedious reformatting to
eliminate all the crap. I wonder if it's a setting issue, like line length,
because some GG posts are rife with double, triple and quad spacing whereas
some appear to come out normally.

Since I never use GG to post (it's too "infesterated" with javascript among
other issues, I can't tell if they even allow changing line length and
word-wrap functions. I just tried looking for an answer in Google's help
forums but you can't use those, either, without enabling javascript. Just
for fun, I copied the error message showing all the ways Google tries to
"feel you up:"

To use Google Groups Discussions, please enable JavaScript in your browser
settings, and then refresh this page.

https://productforums.google.com/forum/
https://productforums.google.com/forum/.67.
https://productforums.google.com/forum/0.1
https://productforums.google.com/for..._20140423.0_p0
https://www.google.com/gen_204?atyp=i&zx=
https://productforums.google.com/forum/1400552523.0
https://productforums.google.com/forum/og.
https://ssl.gstatic.com/gb/js/scm_58...fa8653c8873.js
https://ssl.gstatic.com/gb/js/abc/gc...4062e6e9824.js
https://productforums.google.com/for...4062e6e9824.js
https://ssl.gstatic.com/gb/js/abc/pw...1f3d30e7280.js
https://plusone.google.com/u/0
https://productforums.google.com/forum/pw.clk
https://productforums.google.com/forum/pw.hvr
https://productforums.google.com/forum/0.001
https://productforums.google.com/forum/cfg.init
https://productforums.google.com/for...picker-css.css
https://support.google.com/a/users/b...r\u003d2622806
https://productforums.google.com/forum/30.0
https://productforums.google.com/forum/0.05
https://docs.google.com/picker?https...g-editor-js.js
https://productforums.google.com/forum/60.0
https://productforums.google.com/for...editor-css.css
https://docs.google.com/picker?http:...ptout_feedback
http://productforums.google.com/forum/print/
https://www.google.com/s2
https://productforums.google.com/
https://productforums.google.com/for...tive-picker.js

Holy smokes. We've come a long, long way from the idea of a simple
hypertext information retrieval system that the WWW started out as, and I
can really say it's for the better. Ironically javascript has turned out to
be the number one vector for malicious activity.

--
Bobby G.