Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.

Chaya Eve wrote:
Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.


--
Steve W.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.

That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
the tires are about a year old).

The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

have you had the tires rotated (changed position on the car)

m

On 7/6/17 3:15 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.

That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
the tires are about a year old).

The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?


Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

--
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time or money
making it.

On 7/6/2017 1:15 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.


Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:13:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

If it were only the tires tilted inward at the front (toe) the whole tread
would be "feathered" would it not? This only has the outside edge of both
front tires feathered. So it can't be "just" toe.

I don't see how the miles matter but it has about 60K miles. Miles would
have nothing to do with this other than suspension wear but nobody is
suggesting suspension wear based on the evidence (for example, no cupping).

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

It's not going to be a single thing since the entire width of the tread is
not feathered (only the outside edges) and since it's both front tires,
it's not obvious that it's something worn or out of alignment.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote:

Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
the front).

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 05:46:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

have you had the tires rotated (changed position on the car)

I drive about 8K miles a year and it has been about 4K miles so I had my
teenage son rotate them for me. So now the edge "feathered" tires are on
the rear.

But rotation or lack of it isn't the reason why the tires are feathered nor
is it the solution.

So far it seems that either the daily 5 miles each way of steep twisty
hills is the problem (which can't be solved) or there may be an alignment
issue with both front tires.

They are evenly "feathered" on the outside edge, so it's not just one
wheel.

On 6/07/2017 5:15 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.

That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
the tires are about a year old).

The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
doing that.

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
tread. If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering. FWD
vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
weight on the steering axles. I get the same issue here with my Toyota
due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.

Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
rather than negative.

--

Xeno

On 7/6/17 9:26 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote:

Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
the front).

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.


Above my pay grade.

For anything other than the over-inflation wear pattern (center tread
wear) I take it in for an alignment.

--
A good plan violently executed right now is far better than a perfect
plan executed next week.
- Gen. George S. Patton

Chaya Eve wrote:
The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

Done by an expert at a specialty alignment shop? Done by some bozo at the
tire store?

Do you have the paperwork from the last alignment? Did they make dramatic
changes to the alignment?

My inclination is to suspect that alignments done by the average tire shop
are apt to make things worse rather than better.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

This is true, and one person's "slowly" is another person's "way too fast."

If I were the original poster I would take the car to a real alignment shop
and have them check over the suspension and the alignment, and you should
point the tread wear out to the alignment tech. And they should let you talk
to the actual alignment tech, not just to some manager. And if that came
back without any real changes, I'd keep driving and not worry.

However, I might consider investing in higher performance tires next time
when these wear out. They may or may not last longer, but they will sure
make driving those twisty roads more enjoyable and more safe too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 6/07/2017 11:26 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:02:16 -0400, Wade Garrett wrote:

Bet you a dollar that if you took your ride into a good repair shop,
they'd find that your alignment is out of spec...

If it is the alignment, do you concur that it's a combination of the front
camber (tilted out too high at the top) and toe (turned inward too much at
the front).

Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.

One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
steering arms.

--

Xeno

On 6/07/2017 11:26 PM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:13:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

If it were only the tires tilted inward at the front (toe) the whole tread
would be "feathered" would it not? This only has the outside edge of both
front tires feathered. So it can't be "just" toe.

I don't see how the miles matter but it has about 60K miles. Miles would
have nothing to do with this other than suspension wear but nobody is
suggesting suspension wear based on the evidence (for example, no cupping).

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

My car is a little over a year old. At the one year mark (20,000
km/12,00 mi) I noticed feathering. Had an alignment check - all was ok.
Apparently it is common for outside edge feathering depending on the
type of driving. My car sees mostly urban driving.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

If your wheel alignment specs are normal, colour the wear normal as well.

It's not going to be a single thing since the entire width of the tread is
not feathered (only the outside edges) and since it's both front tires,
it's not obvious that it's something worn or out of alignment.



--

Xeno

On 7/6/2017 9:26 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:13:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

If it were only the tires tilted inward at the front (toe) the whole tread
would be "feathered" would it not? This only has the outside edge of both
front tires feathered. So it can't be "just" toe.

I don't see how the miles matter but it has about 60K miles. Miles would
have nothing to do with this other than suspension wear but nobody is
suggesting suspension wear based on the evidence (for example, no cupping).

Miles is an indicator of potential problems. If you said it had 4,000
miles I'd think the alignment and front end are good unless you hit a
big pot hole. At 60,000 miles things wear, get banged around.
Different things should be checked.



The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

Bingo!. Probably too much toe in. Have it checked and rotate the tires
so they don't get much worse on the front.


My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

It's not going to be a single thing since the entire width of the tread is
not feathered (only the outside edges) and since it's both front tires,
it's not obvious that it's something worn or out of alignment.


Obvious to me that something is not right. Certainly not normal.

On 6 Jul 2017 09:44:30 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

Done by an expert at a specialty alignment shop? Done by some bozo at the
tire store?

An alignment only shop with something called "Hunger" which was a big red
machine with a computer screen and mirrors which he drove the car on to do
the alignment.

Do you have the paperwork from the last alignment? Did they make dramatic
changes to the alignment?

I wish I had saved the papers. It was about 100 dollars with a coupon as I
recall and it took about a half hour at least, maybe a little bit more but
they had no other cars waiting as I recall.

I don't remember anything unusual but now I see why I would want to archive
such things for reference.

My inclination is to suspect that alignments done by the average tire shop
are apt to make things worse rather than better.

I can't imagine that the technician didn't know how to do his job. It was a
shop where the mother ran the office and he did the work and they were the
only two people there.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

This is true, and one person's "slowly" is another person's "way too fast."

I can hear the tires make noise but never screeching like kids do when they
put those round black tire circles in the road pavement. Just a
"scrunching" sound as I go around the turns.

It's a 2WD Toyota 4Runner if that makes any difference.

I don't think I can take the turns much slower than about 20mph as I'm
always the one who pulls over to let others pass me on that road.

I just want to know if the road curves are the problem, why the rear tires
don't show the same outside feathering that the fronts show at 4K miles.

However, I might consider investing in higher performance tires next time
when these wear out. They may or may not last longer, but they will sure
make driving those twisty roads more enjoyable and more safe too.

The tires are TREADWEAR = 380 if that's what you mean by "performance".

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:55:24 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.

I think the advice so far is good in that it's either of these two:
1. Too much camber (top spread out) + too much toe (front spread in)
2. Hills with curves

If it's the alignment (camber plus toe) it can only be fixed with an
alignment. If it's the hills with curves, there's nothing to fix.

The fact that the rear tires have no obvious strange wear might be a clue
to help. Would the hills with curves also affect the rear?

Or do hills with curves only affect the front feathering?

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.

I don't enthusiastically corner. Period. I drive slowly.
But I can't change the five miles each way that are hills with sharp curves
where most are hairpins and there is no stripe in the road since it's too
narrow for a center stripe.

I'm guessing the speeds are 20mps or so but the turns are extreme.

Would that only affect the front feathering leaving the rear unfeathered?
It's a rear drive 2WD basic SUV with a solid rear axle I am told.

One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
steering arms.

Anything can happen at a pothole or curb but I seriously doubt anything
major is "bent" since I'm the only driver and it was thoroughly checked two
years ago when I bought it, including a full four wheel alignment.

My main question is how to determine if the front feathering is only due to
the 90 and 180 degree corners on a 10% grade (I'm told) I have to go
through at 20 mph every day (at least twenty of them each way).

Would that type of hilly curve NOT affect the rear tires at all?

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:40:10 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
doing that.

Well, sometimes I can hear the tires scrape on the turns as I'm going so
slowly (about 20 to 25mph) but I'm also heading downhill (or uphill) at a
steep (I'm told it's consistently 10%) angle.

I never heard of angles in percentages but when I looked that up it seems
to be the way they do roads.

The hilly curves might be the problem, in which case an alignment is a
waste of money (I don't have a lot of money to eat up tires or to do
superfluous alignments either).

Would the fact that the rear tires are not affected mean anything if I was
trying to figure out if the curves were the problem?

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
tread.

On the five mile drive, there are about five hairpins where you literally
end up going the opposite way you started (180 degrees). Generally you can
take the hairpins wide on the outside direction but you have to take them
narrow on inside part of the curve because you can't see around them.

The rest of the many curves are 90 degree curves. There aren't many less
than 90 degrees.

The main question now that I know it can either be the curves or the
alignment (too much toe in at the front of the front tires plus too much
camber in at the top), I wonder if the fact the rear tires are fine tells
you anything.

On a curvy hilly road, if the fronts were feathered from the curves, would
the rears still be even?

If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering.

This is what I'm wondering, which means there is nothing I can do to
compensate other than maybe tire pressure and wheel rotation.

Frequent rotation would be obviously a given, but I noticed that a cross
rotation (which is what they did) without the spare (the spare is a
different width tire for some reason) still puts the feathered edge on the
outside when the fronts were put on the rear.

Would you add MORE or LESS air to prevent the front tires feathering if
it's the curves doing the feathering?

And would you have the tires mounted the other way every few rotations?
(The problem with that is the inside is a whitewall so they'd all have to
be remounted and not just the two feathered ones.)


FWD
vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
weight on the steering axles.

It's a Toyota 2WD 4Runner.

I get the same issue here with my Toyota
due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.

Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
rather than negative.

I'm thinking of this as a plan so how does it sound?

1. First I need to figure out if it's just the curves or if it could be the
alignment so that's why I ask most of my questions, particularly why the
rears are perfect while it's only the fronts that have the outside edge
feathering the same on both tires.

2. If it's alignment, then the answer is to pay the hundred bucks to have
it aligned and that's all that can be done.

3. However, if it's the curves, then an alignment is a waste of money
better spent on food or tire rotations (which I get free at Costco).

4. What I can do is just get rotations every three to six months which is
never a bad thing anyway (it just takes time, mostly waiting in line).

5. Since the tread is not directional and since the last rotation still put
the feathered outside edge of the front tires on the rear in the same
orientation, what do you think about having all four tires remounted the
other way on every second rotation?

They have to be done all four because they're whitewall on one side only
and blackwall on the other side only.

Does that sound like a good plan?

On 7/6/2017 8:26 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:13:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

If it were only the tires tilted inward at the front (toe) the whole tread
would be "feathered" would it not? This only has the outside edge of both
front tires feathered. So it can't be "just" toe.

I don't see how the miles matter but it has about 60K miles. Miles would
have nothing to do with this other than suspension wear but nobody is
suggesting suspension wear based on the evidence (for example, no cupping).

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

It's not going to be a single thing since the entire width of the tread is
not feathered (only the outside edges) and since it's both front tires,
it's not obvious that it's something worn or out of alignment.


Chart he
http://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-49hzsh...g?t=1417876255


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 05:15:10 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.
You don't say what kind of vehicle, bur as a retired mechanic I'd say
you most likely have an alignment issue, possibly complicated by loose
ball joints or other suspension components. It definitely is NOT
normal wear. Get it fixed.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Chaya Eve wrote:
Is it normal for the outside edges of the front tires to be stairstepping
on the outer inch or two only?

By stairstepping, I mean that you can't see the wear all that much but if
you rub your hand over the tread in one direction, you can feel a lip on
each side swipe tread.

If you run your hand over in the other direction, you don't feel it. You
only feel it if you run your hand from back to front on the outside tread
of the two front tires.

If you do the same with the rear tires or on the inner edge of the front
tires, you don't feel any 'stairstepping".

The tires are about a year old and are wearing the front outside edges
only.

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Addeing a few pounds of air pressure usually reduces the problem
significantly IF it is agressive cornrting causing the problem. We
need to know what kind of vehicle and what tires to give any more
help.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 07:15:32 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 02:08:04 -0400, "Steve W." wrote:

What you feel is known as feathering, one side of the tread block wears
more than the other. If you looked at the end of the block it would
appear as a wedge.

It is commonly caused by improper toe settings and if on one edge only
by improper camber angle as well. BUT it can also be caused by using a
common tire on a vehicle that is driven aggressively. IE high speed
cornering. That places a lot of weight on the outer edge of the tire and
tries to force it to roll under. That will wear the outer edges rapidly.

Now if you had one spot that was "normal" then a wear spot then "normal"
going all the way around the tire that would be cupping. That is
normally a suspension wear problem.

That was a far better answer than I had expected so I appreciate your
expertise. The vehicle was aligned but probably about 2 years ago (while
the tires are about a year old).

The car is driven on a five mile hill every day with scores of hairpins but
it's NEVER driven fast. Those turns are made probably at 20 to 25 MPH (you
can't take the turns any faster and stay on your side of the road).

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?
Run the tires a bit harder - add at least 5 psi and do NOT let the
tires get low on air. DO recheck the alignment as well. A lot cheaper
than new tires.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 13:26:35 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:13:13 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Does not sound normal to me. Could be the toe-in is not adjusted
properly. How many miles on the car? Every checked the alignment?

If it were only the tires tilted inward at the front (toe) the whole tread
would be "feathered" would it not? This only has the outside edge of both
front tires feathered. So it can't be "just" toe.

I don't see how the miles matter but it has about 60K miles. Miles would
have nothing to do with this other than suspension wear but nobody is
suggesting suspension wear based on the evidence (for example, no cupping).

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

It's not going to be a single thing since the entire width of the tread is
not feathered (only the outside edges) and since it's both front tires,
it's not obvious that it's something worn or out of alignment.
You asked for information. It is NOT normal. Get the front end
checked for loose components and alignment, and for running that
downhill chicane every day you DEFINITELY want to slightly overinflate
the front tires. Give me make, model, and tire installed and I'll give
you more ingormation.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 16:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Chaya Eve
wrote:

On 6 Jul 2017 09:44:30 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

The alignment was last done about two years ago.
The tires are about a year old.

Done by an expert at a specialty alignment shop? Done by some bozo at the
tire store?

An alignment only shop with something called "Hunger" which was a big red
machine with a computer screen and mirrors which he drove the car on to do
the alignment.

That would be a "HUNTER" alighnment machine

Do you have the paperwork from the last alignment? Did they make dramatic
changes to the alignment?

I wish I had saved the papers. It was about 100 dollars with a coupon as I
recall and it took about a half hour at least, maybe a little bit more but
they had no other cars waiting as I recall.

I don't remember anything unusual but now I see why I would want to archive
such things for reference.

My inclination is to suspect that alignments done by the average tire shop
are apt to make things worse rather than better.

I can't imagine that the technician didn't know how to do his job. It was a
shop where the mother ran the office and he did the work and they were the
only two people there.

There are alignment guys, and alignment guys. Any alignment guy can
set a car within limits - it takes a GOOD alignment guy who really
understands what is going on to set the alignment perfectly for your
driving conditions. I've known and worked with some of the best in the
business. Iwas pretty good, but didn't do enough to be REALLY good -
unlike my kid brother. He's an opinionated pain in the ass (at least
ten times worse than me -) but there's not anyone I know who will
consistently give you a better alignment. Any I knew who could are
long retired.

My take on this is that it's either "normal" for a car that is driven by
necessity (slowly) on twisty steep (10%) mountain roads for 10 miles (5
each way) every day, or there is something wrong.

This is true, and one person's "slowly" is another person's "way too fast."

I can hear the tires make noise but never screeching like kids do when they
put those round black tire circles in the road pavement. Just a
"scrunching" sound as I go around the turns.

You ARE going "too fast" for the tires and conditions. Again - what
vehicle, and what tire - and WHAT PRESSURE are you running. Placard
pressure for stock tires is about 5psi too low for best cornering wear
on most cars - and for heavy cornering with front wheel drive mabee a
bit more. I generally run8 to 10 psi over placard pressure - and I get
even tire wear and very good tire life.

It's a 2WD Toyota 4Runner if that makes any difference.

What year?? What tires do you have on it? Bridgestone Geolanders? or?

Are they 265-65s? a 245-70 will be about the same hight and won't give
as much treadwear problems on the corners.

I don't think I can take the turns much slower than about 20mph as I'm
always the one who pulls over to let others pass me on that road.

I just want to know if the road curves are the problem, why the rear tires
don't show the same outside feathering that the fronts show at 4K miles.

However, I might consider investing in higher performance tires next time
when these wear out. They may or may not last longer, but they will sure
make driving those twisty roads more enjoyable and more safe too.

The tires are TREADWEAR = 380 if that's what you mean by "performance".
"performance" tires on that machine for your driving would be a
TOTAL waste of money - and generally yhey wear a whole lot faster.

Chaya Eve wrote:
An alignment only shop with something called "Hunger" which was a big red
machine with a computer screen and mirrors which he drove the car on to do
the alignment.

Equipment doesn't matter so much, what matters is the guy who did the job.
But you don't throw up any red signs here.

I can hear the tires make noise but never screeching like kids do when they
put those round black tire circles in the road pavement. Just a
"scrunching" sound as I go around the turns.

It's a 2WD Toyota 4Runner if that makes any difference.

I don't think I can take the turns much slower than about 20mph as I'm
always the one who pulls over to let others pass me on that road.

I just want to know if the road curves are the problem, why the rear tires
don't show the same outside feathering that the fronts show at 4K miles.

I don't know, but the forces on the front and the back are very different,
in part because of steering and in part because side-forces are very
different.

However, I might consider investing in higher performance tires next time
when these wear out. They may or may not last longer, but they will sure
make driving those twisty roads more enjoyable and more safe too.

The tires are TREADWEAR = 380 if that's what you mean by "performance".

I'd be more interested in the speed rating. The UT treadwear rating of
380 isn't terribly high but isn't terribly low either.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

#1. Make, Model, Year please?

#2. Cold(not driven) Tire pressures?

#3. What source are you going by for
tire pressure?


Let's establish the basics here.

You do not mention frequently checking the tire pressure. Based on 65+ years of driving, I would run the pressure on the high side of recommended pressure.

On 7/07/2017 2:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:55:24 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.

I think the advice so far is good in that it's either of these two:
1. Too much camber (top spread out) + too much toe (front spread in)
2. Hills with curves

If it's the alignment (camber plus toe) it can only be fixed with an
alignment. If it's the hills with curves, there's nothing to fix.

The fact that the rear tires have no obvious strange wear might be a clue
to help. Would the hills with curves also affect the rear?

Short answer, no. Totally different suspension. The front is lateral arm.

Or do hills with curves only affect the front feathering?

The front wheels are the steering wheels. They have the appropriate
geometry, the rears do not.

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.

I don't enthusiastically corner. Period. I drive slowly.
But I can't change the five miles each way that are hills with sharp curves
where most are hairpins and there is no stripe in the road since it's too
narrow for a center stripe.

I'm guessing the speeds are 20mps or so but the turns are extreme.

Would that only affect the front feathering leaving the rear unfeathered?
It's a rear drive 2WD basic SUV with a solid rear axle I am told.

One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
steering arms.

Anything can happen at a pothole or curb but I seriously doubt anything
major is "bent" since I'm the only driver and it was thoroughly checked two
years ago when I bought it, including a full four wheel alignment.

My main question is how to determine if the front feathering is only due to
the 90 and 180 degree corners on a 10% grade (I'm told) I have to go
through at 20 mph every day (at least twenty of them each way).

Would that type of hilly curve NOT affect the rear tires at all?

You have a solid live rear axle in that vehicle. There is no possibility
of a camber or toe adjustment at the rear. There is no change in camber
due to suspension deflections.

--

Xeno

On 7/07/2017 2:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:40:10 +1000, Xeno wrote:

That means you *are* traveling very fast, at least for the conditions.
What you are saying is that you are leaving no safety margin on each
hairpin. You will definitely be wearing the outer edges of the tyres
doing that.

Well, sometimes I can hear the tires scrape on the turns as I'm going so
slowly (about 20 to 25mph) but I'm also heading downhill (or uphill) at a
steep (I'm told it's consistently 10%) angle.

I never heard of angles in percentages but when I looked that up it seems
to be the way they do roads.

The hilly curves might be the problem, in which case an alignment is a
waste of money (I don't have a lot of money to eat up tires or to do
superfluous alignments either).

Would the fact that the rear tires are not affected mean anything if I was
trying to figure out if the curves were the problem?

Could that steep (10% or so) continuously twisting 5-miles each way every
day have caused the "feathering" you explained my "stairstepping" to be?

The hairpins are the reason for the feathering on the outer edges of the
tread.

On the five mile drive, there are about five hairpins where you literally
end up going the opposite way you started (180 degrees). Generally you can
take the hairpins wide on the outside direction but you have to take them
narrow on inside part of the curve because you can't see around them.

The rest of the many curves are 90 degree curves. There aren't many less
than 90 degrees.

The main question now that I know it can either be the curves or the
alignment (too much toe in at the front of the front tires plus too much
camber in at the top), I wonder if the fact the rear tires are fine tells
you anything.

On a curvy hilly road, if the fronts were feathered from the curves, would
the rears still be even?

If you adjust to eliminate the feathering on curves, you may see
wear on the inside of the tread instead. It is a suspension geometry
anomaly, a compromise if you will, that you can do little about. If you
only drove on a freeway every day, you would see no feathering.

This is what I'm wondering, which means there is nothing I can do to
compensate other than maybe tire pressure and wheel rotation.

Frequent rotation would be obviously a given, but I noticed that a cross
rotation (which is what they did) without the spare (the spare is a
different width tire for some reason) still puts the feathered edge on the
outside when the fronts were put on the rear.

Would you add MORE or LESS air to prevent the front tires feathering if
it's the curves doing the feathering?

And would you have the tires mounted the other way every few rotations?
(The problem with that is the inside is a whitewall so they'd all have to
be remounted and not just the two feathered ones.)


FWD
vehicles tend to fare worse for a number of reasons, one being the
greater SAI angles generally used on them, another being the greater
weight on the steering axles.

It's a Toyota 2WD 4Runner.

I get the same issue here with my Toyota
due to the predominance of roundabouts and sharp corners I need to
negotiate. The steering alignment was, and is, spot on.

Toe specs are usually given as a range. Set yours to the favourable side
of the spec range realising that FWD vehicles tend to be positive toe
rather than negative.

I'm thinking of this as a plan so how does it sound?

1. First I need to figure out if it's just the curves or if it could be the
alignment so that's why I ask most of my questions, particularly why the
rears are perfect while it's only the fronts that have the outside edge
feathering the same on both tires.

2. If it's alignment, then the answer is to pay the hundred bucks to have
it aligned and that's all that can be done.

Call the hundred bucks *insurance*.
A wheel alignment will ensure you get the best life from your tyres.

3. However, if it's the curves, then an alignment is a waste of money
better spent on food or tire rotations (which I get free at Costco).

You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
life in general. Both are necessary.

4. What I can do is just get rotations every three to six months which is
never a bad thing anyway (it just takes time, mostly waiting in line).

5. Since the tread is not directional and since the last rotation still put
the feathered outside edge of the front tires on the rear in the same
orientation, what do you think about having all four tires remounted the
other way on every second rotation?

If your spare is the same as the 4 on the vehicle, do a 5 wheel
rotation. Best look at the owners manual to see how Toyota see rotation
best carried out.

They have to be done all four because they're whitewall on one side only
and blackwall on the other side only.

Does that sound like a good plan?

I have an issue with point one, first sentence. How can you figure out
if it's an alignment issue *without doing an alignment*? This is very
much the case since you cannot see why the rears will not have the
issue. Since you lack an understanding of steering and suspension
geometry, you will need to rely on the expertise of others. As I said,
do an alignment check ensuring that toe out on turns is also checked.
That will ensure that your steering arms are not bent. If you purchased
the vehicle second hand, you have absolutely no idea how it had been
driven in its past life. A toe in adjustment can cover up a bent
steering arm but the effect will be similar to incorrect toe and will be
exacerbated if you are doing extreme cornering. With steering, you
*must* start from a known position. If you cannot recall what was done
in your last wheel alignment, you might benefit from another one right
now. That way you can get Factory specs, what spec your car currently is
and what it has been set to. That should be on the wheel alignment sheet
you get as a customer and if you don't get it, ask for it.



--

Xeno

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
life in general. Both are necessary.

Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
back, where it might be even worse.

On 07/06/2017 10:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
I just want to know if the road curves are the problem, why the rear tires
don't show the same outside feathering that the fronts show at 4K miles.


afaik, the 4Runner does not have independent rear suspension. To
simplify, the rear wheels will be perpendicular to the pavement while
the front tire geometry will vary.

Long shot, but what sort of tire? I had a Michelin Anakee 2 front tire
on one of my bikes that had a very strange wear pattern. Everyone who
ran that tire saw the same thing and Michelin went to the Anakee 3 to
correct the issue. Whether it was the tread block design or something
else it developed a similar pattern to what you are describing except
being a bike it was on both sides. It neither impaired the ride or
handling, it just looked weird.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 22:58:43 -0600, rbowman wrote:

On 07/06/2017 10:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
I just want to know if the road curves are the problem, why the rear tires
don't show the same outside feathering that the fronts show at 4K miles.


afaik, the 4Runner does not have independent rear suspension. To
simplify, the rear wheels will be perpendicular to the pavement while
the front tire geometry will vary.

Long shot, but what sort of tire? I had a Michelin Anakee 2 front tire
on one of my bikes that had a very strange wear pattern. Everyone who
ran that tire saw the same thing and Michelin went to the Anakee 3 to
correct the issue. Whether it was the tread block design or something
else it developed a similar pattern to what you are describing except
being a bike it was on both sides. It neither impaired the ride or
handling, it just looked weird.

In conversations about this with GM engineers, they did mention
problems with certain tires, and with certain vehicles.

Anyway, nearly everyone agrees the alignment should be checked. It's a
basic first step - as long as it includes a full check of all the
steering and suspension - and really should be done. But if the
alignment is right on, then it's time to Google that vehicle and those
tires to see if there is a common issue.

As I said previously, obtaining and setting
factory recommended tire pressure is a
start to checking how the vehicle handles.

Secondly, get it aligned. Make sure all
adjustable parameters are in the middle
of their specified ranges, even if zero
degrees is not in the middle.

Finally, once alignment is done, and it
still doesn't drive as expected, or tire wear
is still happening, then you have damage -
bent or worn parts. Wheels could be
perfectly aligned, but be in the 'wrong
place' on the vehicle: setback, where one
wheel on the same axle is ahead of or
behind the other by fractions of an inch.
Or, another wheel higher or lower than
the others due to spindle or body/frame
damage, etc.

In the front, this could mean poor return
from turns, or bad Ackerman angle. In
the rear, it could mean thrust angle
issues.

thekma @ drooling.retard.com wrote in message
...
#3. What source are you going by for tire pressure?

He probably didn't get it from the rotting corpse of the hobby horse
that you beat to death, of course, of course. KHS. FCKWAFA! FR.

Chaya Eve: Don't be intimdated or put off by anyone -
we're trying to help you.

thekma wrote in message
...
Chaya Eve: Don't be intimdated or put off by anyone -
we're trying to help you.

Thekma isn't trying to help anyone. He's just trying to prove that
he's smart (but he's not smart). FCKWAFA.

On Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:56:34 -0700, Bill Vanek
wrote:

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 14:45:16 +1000, Xeno
wrote:

You should be buying food and rotating tyres as a natural response to
life in general. Both are necessary.

Not everyone recommends rotation. It's not even possible on some
vehicles. Just replace them in pairs as they wear out. I've personally
never rotated my tires on any car, but that's admittedly just my
choice. In fact, on the car we're talking about, the feathered tires
are probably noisy anyway, so she'd just be moving the noise to the
back, where it might be even worse.
Recommendation on the 4runner is front to back only I move mine from
front to back every time I switch seasinal tires on both of my
vehicles.

On Fri, 7 Jul 2017 02:59:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

As I said previously, obtaining and setting
factory recommended tire pressure is a
start to checking how the vehicle handles.

Secondly, get it aligned. Make sure all
adjustable parameters are in the middle
of their specified ranges, even if zero
degrees is not in the middle.

Finally, once alignment is done, and it
still doesn't drive as expected, or tire wear
is still happening, then you have damage -
bent or worn parts. Wheels could be
perfectly aligned, but be in the 'wrong
place' on the vehicle: setback, where one
wheel on the same axle is ahead of or
behind the other by fractions of an inch.
Or, another wheel higher or lower than
the others due to spindle or body/frame
damage, etc.

In the front, this could mean poor return
from turns, or bad Ackerman angle. In
the rear, it could mean thrust angle
issues.
ALL of that is addressed in a PROPER full alignment.

On 2017-07-07, wrote:

ALL of that is addressed in a PROPER full alignment.

I don't know the argument, here, but I DO know one can be screwed!

I like to think of myself as a "mechanic", but alignment and rear-ends
have always eluded me. I did discover my Honda "consierge" lied like
a rug, to me. He told me I needed new tires before "they" could
perform a proper alignment. Later, at a Discount Tires" store, the
shop droid performed a "proper alignment" and told me the tires mean,
"nothing".

nb

On 7/6/2017 9:45 AM, Chaya Eve wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 23:55:24 +1000, Xeno wrote:

Camber does not cause feathering. It does cause wear on one side.

I think the advice so far is good in that it's either of these two:
1. Too much camber (top spread out) + too much toe (front spread in)
2. Hills with curves

If it's the alignment (camber plus toe) it can only be fixed with an
alignment. If it's the hills with curves, there's nothing to fix.

The fact that the rear tires have no obvious strange wear might be a clue
to help. Would the hills with curves also affect the rear?

Or do hills with curves only affect the front feathering?

The tires are "feathered" only on the outside edge of the tread (last inch
or two) evenly on both tires, but only on the front.

The greatest cause of outside edge tyre wear is overenthusiastic cornering.

I don't enthusiastically corner. Period. I drive slowly.
But I can't change the five miles each way that are hills with sharp curves
where most are hairpins and there is no stripe in the road since it's too
narrow for a center stripe.

I'm guessing the speeds are 20mps or so but the turns are extreme.

Would that only affect the front feathering leaving the rear unfeathered?
It's a rear drive 2WD basic SUV with a solid rear axle I am told.

One point I should note. By all means have your alignment checked. One
thing that can cause feathering is a bent steering arm. Typically, a
bent steering arm will cause a change in toe. If the technician just
corrected the toe, he will have missed the real issue and the car will
now have incorrect *toe out on turns*. A *toe out on turns check* should
always be done at a wheel alignment as it will show up issues like bent
steering arms.

Anything can happen at a pothole or curb but I seriously doubt anything
major is "bent" since I'm the only driver and it was thoroughly checked two
years ago when I bought it, including a full four wheel alignment.

My main question is how to determine if the front feathering is only due to
the 90 and 180 degree corners on a 10% grade (I'm told) I have to go
through at 20 mph every day (at least twenty of them each way).

Would that type of hilly curve NOT affect the rear tires at all?


Quick turns back and forth can be very hard on tires. I made the mistake
once of wiggling the steering wheel back and forth at 50mph to make my
van do a "dance". Just tiny motions, 8 or 10 times to get the van
rocking. Looking at the snow/ice tires after that I noticed that the
outside edge of the front tires with the fine tread siping was actually
shredded. Your switchbacks are an amplified version of that motion.

Slowing down might make a big difference.