Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:55:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

I did in fact remove the ground screw from the switch and attached the generator
only to the ground wire going to the furnace. Therefore I was not grounded.

That leads to the next question, just as learning experience...

Let's say I don't want the add the "inlet" mentioned below (more on that later) and just
use the extension cord like I did last night. If I leave the ground from the furnace to the
panel connected in that switch box, should I also attach the ground wire from the
generator to those ground wires? Wouldn't that ground the generator frame to the
panel ground as well as provide a ground for the other receptacles on the generator?



A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)

I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:59:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg

A bucket of coffee grounds would have been even funnier. ;-)

On 3/10/2017 2:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?


While technically not to code, our local electrical inspector would look the other way if the receptacle was mounted in a grounded metal electrical box on the furnace cabinet. The electrical box had to be mounted using 10-32 machine screws, star washers
(to ensure a good ground connection) and lock nuts.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:12:27 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:55:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

I did in fact remove the ground screw from the switch and attached the generator
only to the ground wire going to the furnace. Therefore I was not grounded.

That leads to the next question, just as learning experience...

Let's say I don't want the add the "inlet" mentioned below (more on that later) and just
use the extension cord like I did last night. If I leave the ground from the furnace to the
panel connected in that switch box, should I also attach the ground wire from the
generator to those ground wires? Wouldn't that ground the generator frame to the
panel ground as well as provide a ground for the other receptacles on the generator?



A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)

I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?

Short answer is there is never a reason to remove the ground from the
furnace, leave it connected to the house wiring. Just switch over the
power and if you use the DPST (3 way) solution you are really
switching the hot and leaving the neutral connected to both.
If you did go with a cord and plug solution, leave the ground
connected and connect the generator ground to the box. In reality, the
box probably stayed grounded anyway, even if you moved the wire from
the switch. It is usually connected to the back of the box first and
then that continued on to the furnace. Back when I had a furnace, the
box was actually mounted on the furnace and that would be a
connection.

posted for all of us...



On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg

Yeah that's the idea!

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:59:21 -0500, Al Dente
wrote:

On 3/10/2017 2:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?


While technically not to code, our local electrical inspector would look the other way if the receptacle was mounted in a grounded metal electrical box on the furnace cabinet. The electrical box had to be mounted using 10-32 machine screws, star washers
(to ensure a good ground connection) and lock nuts.


There should be a grounding conductor in the cable going to the
furnace.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always
lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on
Wednesday. Last night I borrowed a generator from a friend to get the
furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires from the breaker to the
switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the
receptacle end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to
neutral, and ground to ground from the generator to the wire that
goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine, other
than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It
figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that
the control board in many HE furnaces require a really good ground in
order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground
terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from
the AC receptacle ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin
connection will not function if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can
be remotely grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a
ground, which sort of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the
control boards need a good ground to operate properly. Of course,
maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating properly with the
generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't even
need a ground.

Comments?


Skip all that mumbo jumbo and wire a connection to run the whole house.
Easy peasy, but you will need 76 pages of instruction.

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 12:30:13 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did.. Am I missing something
or did you?



well if everything worked, my suggestion was to not fix it so yes, it's not any different that what you did.

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 3:22:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:12:27 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:55:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

I did in fact remove the ground screw from the switch and attached the generator
only to the ground wire going to the furnace. Therefore I was not grounded.

That leads to the next question, just as learning experience...

Let's say I don't want the add the "inlet" mentioned below (more on that later) and just
use the extension cord like I did last night. If I leave the ground from the furnace to the
panel connected in that switch box, should I also attach the ground wire from the
generator to those ground wires? Wouldn't that ground the generator frame to the
panel ground as well as provide a ground for the other receptacles on the generator?



A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)

I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?

Short answer is there is never a reason to remove the ground from the
furnace, leave it connected to the house wiring. Just switch over the
power and if you use the DPST (3 way) solution you are really
switching the hot and leaving the neutral connected to both.
If you did go with a cord and plug solution, leave the ground
connected and connect the generator ground to the box.

That all makes sense but it eliminates the "plug and play" aspect of
the solution, making the "15 year HVAC tech's" method nonviable.

Here it is. You don't have to watch the whole thing...the plug and receptacle
can be seen at 0:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2FDO3SVnVE

Once he unplugs the cord from the receptacle and plugs it into the extension
cord from the generator (which is electrically the same thing that I did at
the switch) the furnace is no longer grounded, unless the generator was
grounded in some other manner.

Assuming the cord and plug solution is legal in the first place, in order to maintain the ground, he would need to run a ground wire from the receptacle
box to the furnace chassis or mount the receptacle box *on* the chassis, correct? That way even though the ground wire from the generator isn't doing
anything, the furnace would still be grounded.

If the receptacle was mounted on a "stud" like in the video, would an
inspector take issue with a ground wire running from the receptacle box
(or from the panel) to the furnace chassis as a permanent installation?


In reality, the
box probably stayed grounded anyway, even if you moved the wire from
the switch. It is usually connected to the back of the box first and
then that continued on to the furnace. Back when I had a furnace, the
box was actually mounted on the furnace and that would be a
connection.

That's a good point. I just put a meter on my switch box, which is mounted
on the return duct work. Zero ohms to the furnace chassis and zero ohms to
the ground pin of a nearby receptacle which is on a different circuit. However,
it is grounded only when the switch is attached to the box because the
ground wires go directly to the switch, not to the box first.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark
If the generator has the neutral bonded to the ground wire (most
portable generators used for construction etc do) you do not need a
greound rod - the furnace sees the "virtual ground) and functions
properly. If you have a generator designed to be connected to the
house wiring as a backup generator they are generally NOT bonded and
require a ground rod connection.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:54:45 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)
Just remember MOST portable generators ARE bonded - might be a good
idea to cut the bonding wire and put a switch in the line to allow
"lifting" the ground.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:59:20 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg
Converting a non-bonded generator to a bonded generator is simple -
just take a plug and install a wire between the white (neutral) and
ground. Plug it into one outlet when a "bonded" genset is required
(generally required by ohsa on construction sites)

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:12:27 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:55:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Oh boy, another ground question. These discussions are always lively. :-)

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.

Since then, I've done some reading and found these 2 "facts":

1 - I read a generator related post in an HVAC forum that says that the control board in many
HE furnaces require a really good ground in order to operate properly.

2 - The manual for the generator says:

"Grounding

The generator system ground connects the frame to the ground terminals on the power panel.
- The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle
ground pin.
- Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function
if the ground pin is not functional. "

The manual also says that the ground terminal on the power panel can be remotely
grounded by using a ground rod.

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

The ground is for surge/transient protection.
If you did not remove the grounding connection in the switch box, you
are still grounded.

I did in fact remove the ground screw from the switch and attached the generator
only to the ground wire going to the furnace. Therefore I was not grounded.

That leads to the next question, just as learning experience...

Let's say I don't want the add the "inlet" mentioned below (more on that later) and just
use the extension cord like I did last night. If I leave the ground from the furnace to the
panel connected in that switch box, should I also attach the ground wire from the
generator to those ground wires? Wouldn't that ground the generator frame to the
panel ground as well as provide a ground for the other receptacles on the generator?

By code if you do that you need to "lift" the ground on the generator
(disconnect the genset ground from neutral)



A quasi legal way to do this is to put in "inlet" in a box next to the
switch (or use a 4x4 box) then replace the switch with a 3 way.
The black (common) goes to the furnace and the other two switch from
line power to the inlet. Grounding and neutral are not affected and
since the neutral is not bonded in the generator, it is not a
separately derived system so this is legal.
That meets the intent of the "transfer equipment" rules even if it is
not part of the manufacturer's listing and labeling (110.3 (B)
violation)

I watched a video in which a "15 year HVAC tech" added a 3 prong appliance cord
to the furnace and installed a dedicated receptacle after the furnace switch. The purpose
was so that the furnace could just be unplugged from the receptacle and plugged into a
standard extension cord from the generator. Based on what you just said, that not only
doesn't sound legal, but it also ungrounds the furnace unless the generator is grounded
in some other manner, correct?

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:22:49 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg

Yeah that's the idea!
Better yet, just smear a handful of mud on the generator frame and
you have a "portable wireless ground"

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:39:35 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:59:20 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg
Converting a non-bonded generator to a bonded generator is simple -
just take a plug and install a wire between the white (neutral) and
ground. Plug it into one outlet when a "bonded" genset is required
(generally required by ohsa on construction sites)

For what we are talking about, bonding the generator really has little
effect on anything if the generator does not have a ground electrode
system.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:47:56 -0500, wrote:



I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

Exactly

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

Sorry... I left off the "perfect" link. ;-)

http://haleselectricalservice.com/wp...le-circuit.png

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

Sorry... I left off the "perfect" link. ;-)

http://haleselectricalservice.com/wp...le-circuit.png

Man, how many times can I screw up just trying to post a link?

Here is the link I meant to post. Inlet receptacle with a switch for line
power, generator power and off.

http://www.transferswitchplace.com/1...tch-tf151w.jpg

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 01:47:42 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:39:35 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:59:20 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:30:09 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 11:56:23 AM UTC-5, wrote:

So, this indicates to me that I was running my furnace without a ground, which sort
of (sort of) goes against claim #1 that the control boards need a good ground to
operate properly. Of course, maybe my furnace *seemed* to have been operating
properly with the generator but really wasn't, or maybe my control board doesn't
even need a ground.

Comments?

Excellent question...

the usual reason the controllers need a ground is for flame sensor. This usually applies to GAS fired devices. The electronics senses the flame as it touches metal parts that are grounded. If the electronics does not have a good ground, this may not work reliably.

The solution would be to use a three prong plug with a ground to connect the furnace to the generator. Connect the white and black wires as you did. Connect the green wire to the ground in the outlet box where you tapped in which should also connect to the frame of the furnace.

I didn't say anything about an "outlet box". I said I connected the generator wires at the *switch*
for the furnace.

What am I missing here...

I did use a 3 prong plug. As I said, I connected hot to hot, neutral to neutral and ground to
ground from the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Even if the
ground wire in the switch box goes to the frame of the furnace, if the generator ground pin
is not really grounded, then the furnace isn't grounded.

I don't see how your suggestion is any different than what I actually did. Am I missing something
or did you?


If the flame sensor does not work correctly, then add a jumper wire to connect the white and green together.

My generator actually already has the white and green tied together at the outlet box.

If your furnace worked OK as it was, then I wouldn't worry about it. THe flame sensors need only a high impedance ground to work correctly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Mark

A generator is not "grounded" anyway unless you drive a rod or connect
it to another grounding electrode. In the case of a portable
generator, using cords, you are better not having it grounded since
you do not have a fault path to ground.
I suppose you could do this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/port...tor_ground.jpg
Converting a non-bonded generator to a bonded generator is simple -
just take a plug and install a wire between the white (neutral) and
ground. Plug it into one outlet when a "bonded" genset is required
(generally required by ohsa on construction sites)

For what we are talking about, bonding the generator really has little
effect on anything if the generator does not have a ground electrode
system.
But the furnace really doesn't have a clue if the "ground" is
grounded or not, as long as the neutral is "bonded" to the generator
ground.. It's just a "reference" to the furnace.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 06:24:00 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.
That's the way I'd do it if I didn't have a transfer
switch/interlock at the panel.. Just switch the live from the panel to
the genset, and leave everything else connected. My brother did that
ay his place - he plugs the "house extention cord" into the generator.
It has 4 or 5 outlets strategically located around the house to plug
things into, and a 3 way switch on the furnace. - all hard-wired - no
extention cords inside the house - and theconnection to the house is
the same as the connection to his travel trailer.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.
That's the way I'd do it if I didn't have a transfer
switch/interlock at the panel.. Just switch the live from the panel to
the genset, and leave everything else connected. My brother did that
ay his place - he plugs the "house extention cord" into the generator.
It has 4 or 5 outlets strategically located around the house to plug
things into, and a 3 way switch on the furnace. - all hard-wired - no
extention cords inside the house - and theconnection to the house is
the same as the connection to his travel trailer.


Some folks might even backfeed the whole panel
through the clothes dryer receptacle - allowing the generator to
supply their well pump, sump pump, freezer, etc
... as well as the furnace. Selectively - by opening & closing
the panel breakers.
Of course they always remember to open the main breaker first
and close it last, after the generator is shut off.
John T.

On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 3:25:35 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

Sorry... I left off the "perfect" link. ;-)

http://haleselectricalservice.com/wp...le-circuit.png

Man, how many times can I screw up just trying to post a link?

Here is the link I meant to post. Inlet receptacle with a switch for line
power, generator power and off.

http://www.transferswitchplace.com/1...tch-tf151w.jpg

In most cases you can just as easily put an Interlockit slide on the main
panel together with an inlet and then power whatever you want in the whole
house.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 11:10:32 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 3:25:35 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

Sorry... I left off the "perfect" link. ;-)

http://haleselectricalservice.com/wp...le-circuit.png

Man, how many times can I screw up just trying to post a link?

Here is the link I meant to post. Inlet receptacle with a switch for line
power, generator power and off.

http://www.transferswitchplace.com/1...tch-tf151w.jpg

In most cases you can just as easily put an Interlockit slide on the main
panel together with an inlet and then power whatever you want in the whole
house.

Yeah, but...

I'm not looking to power too much, mainly the furnace, one fridge and
a couple of lights. I did that the other night with a couple of extension
cords off a 3500 watt generator. It was good enough for SWMBO and I. We
camp, so roughing it a bit - inside a house - is no problem. :-)

The main goal is to get the furnace up and running as quick as possible
and the switch I linked to does it quick and easy. (As would Greg's
suggestion of a homemade unit with a 3 way switch and inlet.)

I'm also not looking to buy (and store) a huge generator for the rare times
that the power goes out for anything that resembles an "extended period".
3500W is probably more than enough but I need to run some numbers before I
pull the trigger. My neighbor bought a 7000W beast that he never even got
hooked up before the power came back on.

We were lucky. We were without power for less than 36 hours. The
out-of-state crew cleared the lines and restored power along a 1/2 mile
route north of, and including, my street. On the next street to the south
and for another 1/4 mile the generators are still running. I'm not sure
what the delay is. There must have been 15 trucks - bucket trucks, pole
setting trucks, electrician trucks - working late into Thursday evening
to restore my part of the neighborhood. Since then all we've seen is a
few trucks mainly clearing downed trees south of me. There are still poles
to be set and wires to be strung. It sucks to be those without power. It's
been in the low to mid teens since Thursday night.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 12:45:59 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 11:10:32 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 3:25:35 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, March 11, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.

Sorry... I left off the "perfect" link. ;-)

http://haleselectricalservice.com/wp...le-circuit.png

Man, how many times can I screw up just trying to post a link?

Here is the link I meant to post. Inlet receptacle with a switch for line
power, generator power and off.

http://www.transferswitchplace.com/1...tch-tf151w.jpg

In most cases you can just as easily put an Interlockit slide on the main
panel together with an inlet and then power whatever you want in the whole
house.

Yeah, but...

I'm not looking to power too much, mainly the furnace, one fridge and
a couple of lights. I did that the other night with a couple of extension
cords off a 3500 watt generator. It was good enough for SWMBO and I. We
camp, so roughing it a bit - inside a house - is no problem. :-)

The main goal is to get the furnace up and running as quick as possible
and the switch I linked to does it quick and easy. (As would Greg's
suggestion of a homemade unit with a 3 way switch and inlet.)

As would an Interlockit on the panel and inlet. Looks like
the same or less work than your switch/inlet solution for
just the furnace.



I'm also not looking to buy (and store) a huge generator for the rare times
that the power goes out for anything that resembles an "extended period".




3500W is probably more than enough but I need to run some numbers before I
pull the trigger. My neighbor bought a 7000W beast that he never even got
hooked up before the power came back on.

3500W is probably fine. During Sandy, we had two houses
running on one that was either that or 5KW tops. That
was several fridges, power vent water heaters, some lights,
and furnaces. And we didn't do much to manage those loads
either.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:


Yeah, but...

I'm not looking to power too much, mainly the furnace, one fridge and
a couple of lights. I did that the other night with a couple of extension
cords off a 3500 watt generator. It was good enough for SWMBO and I. We
camp, so roughing it a bit - inside a house - is no problem. :-)

The main goal is to get the furnace up and running as quick as possible
and the switch I linked to does it quick and easy. (As would Greg's
suggestion of a homemade unit with a 3 way switch and inlet.)

I'm also not looking to buy (and store) a huge generator for the rare times
that the power goes out for anything that resembles an "extended period".
3500W is probably more than enough but I need to run some numbers before I
pull the trigger. My neighbor bought a 7000W beast that he never even got
hooked up before the power came back on.

We were lucky. We were without power for less than 36 hours. The
out-of-state crew cleared the lines and restored power along a 1/2 mile
route north of, and including, my street. On the next street to the south
and for another 1/4 mile the generators are still running. I'm not sure
what the delay is. There must have been 15 trucks - bucket trucks, pole
setting trucks, electrician trucks - working late into Thursday evening
to restore my part of the neighborhood. Since then all we've seen is a
few trucks mainly clearing downed trees south of me. There are still poles
to be set and wires to be strung. It sucks to be those without power. It's
been in the low to mid teens since Thursday night.

I bought a 5.5KW several years ago. (a deal I couldn't refuse I put in
the breaker interlock kit and a cable to connect the generator. The
power has not failed since. Great insurance. The generator has never
even had gas in it. Every once in while I pull it over a few times,
rock it and slosh the oil around.
The guy I bought it from had the same experience for the 3 years he
owned it. It was still in the box when I bought it.

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

As would an Interlockit on the panel and inlet. Looks like
the same or less work than your switch/inlet solution for
just the furnace.

Load management is the problem when you are feeding the main panel.
You may find that there is just too much on the 2 or 3 circuits you
want to enable.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:00:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:


Yeah, but...

I'm not looking to power too much, mainly the furnace, one fridge and
a couple of lights. I did that the other night with a couple of extension
cords off a 3500 watt generator. It was good enough for SWMBO and I. We
camp, so roughing it a bit - inside a house - is no problem. :-)

The main goal is to get the furnace up and running as quick as possible
and the switch I linked to does it quick and easy. (As would Greg's
suggestion of a homemade unit with a 3 way switch and inlet.)

I'm also not looking to buy (and store) a huge generator for the rare times
that the power goes out for anything that resembles an "extended period".
3500W is probably more than enough but I need to run some numbers before I
pull the trigger. My neighbor bought a 7000W beast that he never even got
hooked up before the power came back on.

We were lucky. We were without power for less than 36 hours. The
out-of-state crew cleared the lines and restored power along a 1/2 mile
route north of, and including, my street. On the next street to the south
and for another 1/4 mile the generators are still running. I'm not sure
what the delay is. There must have been 15 trucks - bucket trucks, pole
setting trucks, electrician trucks - working late into Thursday evening
to restore my part of the neighborhood. Since then all we've seen is a
few trucks mainly clearing downed trees south of me. There are still poles
to be set and wires to be strung. It sucks to be those without power. It's
been in the low to mid teens since Thursday night.

I bought a 5.5KW several years ago. (a deal I couldn't refuse I put in
the breaker interlock kit and a cable to connect the generator. The
power has not failed since. Great insurance. The generator has never
even had gas in it. Every once in while I pull it over a few times,
rock it and slosh the oil around.
The guy I bought it from had the same experience for the 3 years he
owned it. It was still in the box when I bought it.

"The generator has never even had gas in it."

Just FYI...both generators I dealt with this week had never had gas in them.

The one I borrowed was a few years old but never used. The guy that lent it
to me put a little gas in it but we couldn't get it started while I was at
his house. I brought it home anyway, with the plan to try some starting fluid.
I decided to try to start it without the starting fluid and after a few
sputter and fails, it started. I'd have to say that we tried 30+ pulls
between his house and mine before it finally started. (Yes, the choke was
set correctly)

My neighbor's was brand new out of the box and we ended up using starter
fluid after 10 or so failed pulls. One sputter-fail, then success.

I only bring that up so you don't get worried when you try to start yours
in an emergency. Store a can of starting fluid with it and save your arm.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:


been in the low to mid teens since Thursday night.

I bought a 5.5KW several years ago. (a deal I couldn't refuse I put in
the breaker interlock kit and a cable to connect the generator. The
power has not failed since. Great insurance. The generator has never
even had gas in it. Every once in while I pull it over a few times,
rock it and slosh the oil around.
The guy I bought it from had the same experience for the 3 years he
owned it. It was still in the box when I bought it.

I bought a 5 kw gen and had the cables and such. Never started it up.
About 3 years later the power failed when it was dark. Messed with it
for about 2 hours trying to crank it up but it would not start. Thenthe
power came on. The next day my son in law came over and we looked at it
.. Seems there was an on/off switch that was in the off position. The
book did not show that. As soon as we switched it to the onposition it
started with 2 pulls. I started it about once a month after that.

Moved and for some reason I failed to start it for about 2 years. Power
went out, and it would not crank. Bought a new generator and put some
oil in it,but never did start it. Gas had gunked up the carburator of
the old one. Cleaned that out the next day and it would start with the
usual 2 pulls. Started it about once a month again. Power did not go
out for 2 years, so I drained all the gas and ran it empty. Have not
needed it.

So here I sit with 2 generators for several years and I bet neither will
start if I need one again.

Too bad it is notlike a garden tiller I have. I use that thing once or
maybe twice a year. When done with it, I let it run empty. For the
last 10 years it has started with one pull, or at the most 2 pulls every
year.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:01:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

As would an Interlockit on the panel and inlet. Looks like
the same or less work than your switch/inlet solution for
just the furnace.

Load management is the problem when you are feeding the main panel.
You may find that there is just too much on the 2 or 3 circuits you
want to enable.

That's why I'm keeping it simple. Plug and play for the furnace, extension
cords for a fridge and a few lights. Easily adaptable as the situation
warrants.

LED Hug lLights and headlamps work really well. We have a few sets for camping.

The Hug Lights I have were a little more expensive than this model but has
3 levels of white light and 1 for red. The red is really good when you
just need a little light, like in a bedroom when someone is sleeping.

https://www.amazon.com/Flex-Reading-.../dp/B00CP2A8VM

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 15:01:22 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2017 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

As would an Interlockit on the panel and inlet. Looks like
the same or less work than your switch/inlet solution for
just the furnace.

Load management is the problem when you are feeding the main panel.
You may find that there is just too much on the 2 or 3 circuits you
want to enable.
So turn off a few switches or pull a few plugs.

I have a 7Kw genset that produces 5Kw on natural gas, or 7 on propane
or Gasoline.
Used with interlock on 125 amp service.

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 23:02:03 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 06:24:00 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.
That's the way I'd do it if I didn't have a transfer
switch/interlock at the panel.. Just switch the live from the panel to
the genset, and leave everything else connected. My brother did that
ay his place - he plugs the "house extention cord" into the generator.
It has 4 or 5 outlets strategically located around the house to plug
things into, and a 3 way switch on the furnace. - all hard-wired - no
extention cords inside the house - and theconnection to the house is
the same as the connection to his travel trailer.

Ground isn't important. Current only flows through live and neutral.

--
System error 4C: kernel panic

On 3/12/17 3:43 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Ground isn't important. Current only flows through live and neutral.

It's important for those of us who don't walk on water.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 4:43:24 PM UTC-4, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 23:02:03 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 06:24:00 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 9:45:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

I lost power from the wind storm that hit the Great Lakes area on Wednesday. Last night I
borrowed a generator from a friend to get the furnace going. I simply unhooked the wires
from the breaker to the switch for the furnace and used an extension cord (with the receptacle
end cut off) and wire nutted the hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and ground to ground from
the generator to the wire that goes from the switch to the furnace. Everything worked fine,
other than the fact that the power came back on less than 3 hours later. It figures.



Leave the ground wires attached - as found -
- but add connect the generator cord's ground wire.
Don't over complicate this.
John T.

That's fine for emergency hooks up like I did, but I' like to install a plug
and play set-up.

The one in the video (cord and plug) doesn't "work" because it disconnects
the ground from the furnace once the plug is disconnected from the receptacle.

Greg's 3-way switch and inlet solves that problem quite nicely.

Something like this would be perfect because it could replace the On-Off
switch currently installed on the furnace.
That's the way I'd do it if I didn't have a transfer
switch/interlock at the panel.. Just switch the live from the panel to
the genset, and leave everything else connected. My brother did that
ay his place - he plugs the "house extention cord" into the generator.
It has 4 or 5 outlets strategically located around the house to plug
things into, and a 3 way switch on the furnace. - all hard-wired - no
extention cords inside the house - and theconnection to the house is
the same as the connection to his travel trailer.

Ground isn't important. Current only flows through live and neutral.

Frigging Idiot. Get the hell out of my thread.