I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's
interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets
And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm
pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct?
Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about
a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the
power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal
Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this
can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what
in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all
these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also
that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic
or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I
really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I
will if I have to.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...l-1124730-.htm

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:44:03 GMT, Robert
m wrote:

I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's
interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets
And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm
pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct?
Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about
a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the
power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal
Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this
can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what
in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all
these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also
that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic
or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I
really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I
will if I have to.

There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general
lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more
than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per
sq/ft.
Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the
circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a
separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a.
The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40
years.
As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at
2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x
cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box.
(14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in)
Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled.
If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and
splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you
popping breakers?"

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 2:06:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:44:03 GMT, Robert
m wrote:

I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's
interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets
And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm
pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct?
Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about
a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the
power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal
Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this
can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what
in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all
these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also
that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic
or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I
really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I
will if I have to.

There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general
lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more
than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per
sq/ft.
Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the
circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a
separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a.
The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40
years.
As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at
2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x
cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box.
(14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in)
Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled.
If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and
splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you
popping breakers?"

Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire
that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in
the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one
circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a
new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual
loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc.

On 02/20/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
O

There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general
lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more
than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per
sq/ft.
Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the
circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a
separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a.
The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40
years.
As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at
2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x
cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box.
(14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in)
Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled.
If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and
splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you
popping breakers?"

Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire
that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in
the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one
circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a
new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual
loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc.




A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as
possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum.


Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

In article , says...



Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

I have not seen any info on the twist with the pliers , but some twist
by hand. I always just line the wires up parallel and put the wire nut
on. Either is recommended by the makers of the ones I use. Other
companies may differ in their instructions. When done, give the wire
nuts a good tug to see if they come off.


Lately I have been using the WAGO Lever nuts. They cost a little more,
but are so much easier for me to work with. Nothing to twist and if the
correct wire sizes are used and stripped correctly, not much for human
error.

http://www.wago.us/wago/press/press-...etail-1122.jsp

There are also some Wall Nuts that just push in. I use them for some
things like ballasts replacement in lights. While they may be ok for
the higher current applications, I don't use the push ins for that( much
over 1 amp of current. Just my opinion on that.

On 02/20/2017 12:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

I have not seen any info on the twist with the pliers , but some twist
by hand. I always just line the wires up parallel and put the wire nut
on. Either is recommended by the makers of the ones I use. Other
companies may differ in their instructions. When done, give the wire
nuts a good tug to see if they come off.


Lately I have been using the WAGO Lever nuts. They cost a little more,
but are so much easier for me to work with. Nothing to twist and if the
correct wire sizes are used and stripped correctly, not much for human
error.

http://www.wago.us/wago/press/press-...etail-1122.jsp

There are also some Wall Nuts that just push in. I use them for some
things like ballasts replacement in lights. While they may be ok for
the higher current applications, I don't use the push ins for that( much
over 1 amp of current. Just my opinion on that.







Never even heard of those WAGO. Sure they work but I prefer wire-to-wire
connection. I'm sure I had just been a bit careless and not actually
tugged on the connection.


My house was built in 1898 and not wired until 1932.

Fortunately it was all BX and rigid conduit.


What prompted me to re-wire as one of the original connections finally
failed, It must have gotten hot enough for the solder to melt or perhaps
was poorly soldered to begin with.

Almost all of the original wiring has been replaced and many new
circuits added. The house averaged one outlet per room.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 12:15:37 PM UTC-6, philo wrote:

A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as
possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum.

Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

On 02/20/2017 12:15 PM, philo wrote:
....

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

Not required, maybe, is one?

Ideal instructions are as follows:

1. Turn off power before removing or installing connectors.
2. Strip connectors to the correct strip length per the chart below:
Connector Strip length
451® Strip solid wires 3/8€� (9.5 mm)
452® Strip wires ½€� (13 mm)
454® Strip wires 7/8€� (22 mm)
3. Straighten and align frayed strands.
4. Hold wires together with ends even. Lead stranded wires slightly
ahead of solid wires.
5. Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting; strip
wires long, hold wires together with insulation even,
twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length.
6. Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight.


The primary reason _against_ imo is owing to the last part of 5. -- you
have to be sure to strip enough extra you've got minimum length needed
when done and then the extra step to trim. I think it's also more
difficult to ensure you've got the torque/bite when have the bunch all
solidly together first, but that's just opinion.

I'm thinking there are some that say don't (twist, that is), but didn't
look past the Ideal datasheet to try to actually find one.

--

On 02/20/2017 02:22 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2017 12:15 PM, philo wrote:
...

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

Not required, maybe, is one?

Ideal instructions are as follows:

1. Turn off power before removing or installing connectors.
2. Strip connectors to the correct strip length per the chart below:
Connector Strip length
451® Strip solid wires 3/8€� (9.5 mm)
452® Strip wires ½€� (13 mm)
454® Strip wires 7/8€� (22 mm)
3. Straighten and align frayed strands.
4. Hold wires together with ends even. Lead stranded wires slightly
ahead of solid wires.
5. Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting; strip
wires long, hold wires together with insulation even,
twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length.
6. Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight.


The primary reason _against_ imo is owing to the last part of 5. -- you
have to be sure to strip enough extra you've got minimum length needed
when done and then the extra step to trim. I think it's also more
difficult to ensure you've got the torque/bite when have the bunch all
solidly together first, but that's just opinion.

I'm thinking there are some that say don't (twist, that is), but didn't
look past the Ideal datasheet to try to actually find one.

--



I really like the idea of pre-twisting

On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:15:29 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/20/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
O

There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general
lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more
than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per
sq/ft.
Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the
circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a
separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a.
The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40
years.
As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at
2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x
cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box.
(14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in)
Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled.
If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and
splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you
popping breakers?"

Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire
that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in
the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one
circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a
new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual
loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc.




A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as
possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum.


Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

When connecting 2 or 3 identical wires I don't pretwist. My father
was an electrician and said a properly wirenutted connection WILL end
up properly twisted and he'd never seen a wirenut come off if
installed properly that way. A wirenut applied to a pre-twistedc
connection stands a pretty good chance of falling off because the
"teeth" in the spring are not firmly embedded in the copper of the
wire. If connecting a14 and a 12 or any combination of the two,
CAREFULL pretwisting can make a better connection because if "direct
nutting" the 14 just wraps around the 12 - but the "teeth" in the
spring do still bite.

On 02/20/2017 06:47 PM, wrote:
Os are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc.




A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as
possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum.


Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

When connecting 2 or 3 identical wires I don't pretwist. My father
was an electrician and said a properly wirenutted connection WILL end
up properly twisted and he'd never seen a wirenut come off if
installed properly that way. A wirenut applied to a pre-twistedc
connection stands a pretty good chance of falling off because the
"teeth" in the spring are not firmly embedded in the copper of the
wire. If connecting a14 and a 12 or any combination of the two,
CAREFULL pretwisting can make a better connection because if "direct
nutting" the 14 just wraps around the 12 - but the "teeth" in the
spring do still bite.




I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.








I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I
do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same
precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the
tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut
cracked and the shell portion would fall off.


That said some people say that if one has a poor connection it would be
better to just let the wire fall out rather than be held in place by tape.


AFAIK there is no definitive answer

On 02/21/2017 9:29 AM, philo wrote:
....

AFAIK there is no definitive answer

The definitive answer is the "workmanship" clause in NEC.

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 9:49:24 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.

+1

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600
philo wrote:

I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges
of wire


Busted! You are a fraud.

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.




Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.

Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment.


(Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never
once coming up with a useful solution)

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/20/2017 06:47 PM, wrote:
Os are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc.




A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as
possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum.


Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up
the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight.

A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the
wires lined up.

A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and
twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the
wire nut.


Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that?

When connecting 2 or 3 identical wires I don't pretwist. My father
was an electrician and said a properly wirenutted connection WILL end
up properly twisted and he'd never seen a wirenut come off if
installed properly that way. A wirenut applied to a pre-twistedc
connection stands a pretty good chance of falling off because the
"teeth" in the spring are not firmly embedded in the copper of the
wire. If connecting a14 and a 12 or any combination of the two,
CAREFULL pretwisting can make a better connection because if "direct
nutting" the 14 just wraps around the 12 - but the "teeth" in the
spring do still bite.




I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up
I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.








I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I
do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same
precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the
tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut
cracked and the shell portion would fall off.

You gotta use better wire nuts!

That said some people say that if one has a poor connection it would be
better to just let the wire fall out rather than be held in place by tape.


AFAIK there is no definitive answer

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:44:54 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 02/21/2017 9:29 AM, philo wrote:
...

AFAIK there is no definitive answer

The definitive answer is the "workmanship" clause in NEC.
Correct. If it looks like crap, there is a pretty good chance it is.
A properly wire-nutted connection doesn't need tape, so a taped
wirenutted connection just screams "the guy who did this isn't
confident of his workmanship - why should you be?"

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.




Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.

Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment.


(Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never
once coming up with a useful solution)
How about when wire-nutting a flourescent ballast (#18?) to the #14
house wiring?? VERY common situation. There are quite a few others.
One of the tricky ones is using the approved ACS marrette to pigtail a
awg14c wire to an awg12a.. The inspector will fail the joint if it is
pretwisted before installing the ACS - and the 14 copper and the 12
aluminum actually DO twist together rather well with the nut. - at
least with the second gen aluminum.

On 02/21/2017 03:13 PM, wrote:
O(#18?) to the #14
house wiring?? VERY common situation. There are quite a few others.
One of the tricky ones is using the approved ACS marrette to pigtail a
awg14c wire to an awg12a.. The inspector will fail the joint if it is
pretwisted before installing the ACS - and the 14 copper and the 12
aluminum actually DO twist together rather well with the nut. - at
least with the second gen aluminum.




Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot

On 02/21/2017 03:04 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote:

I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up
I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!




I gave my reason but my question was about using two different gauges
wires in a junction box

On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.








I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I
do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same
precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the
tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut
cracked and the shell portion would fall off.

You gotta use better wire nuts!



The one that broke was just a standard type


as to taping I checked a number of on-line advice pages and some
inspectors insist on wire nuts being taped and others say they shouldn't

No absolute answer one way or the other.

I say if I triple check the integrity to add tape is OK .

FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was
a factor?

In article ,
says...

I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!


I do have to admitt to a special case for me to tape a wire nut. Wiring
up motors where there is a lot of viberation I sometimes did tape up the
wire nuts. Two reasons. They may viberrate losses, but mainly because
being in close contact with the metal junction box it may take longer
for it to wear through. Tha this the only time I ever taped any in
thousands I installed when working.

That is another case where 2 different sizes of wires may be used. Often
the motor wires would be smaller than the feeder wires on those motors.

Just lay the wires next to each other and screw the nut on, then give it
a good tug.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:


Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.


You would usually see this to mitigate voltage drop issues on a long
run of wire.
Say you had a 15a "outside" circuit and you want to extend that to a
shed 100 feet away, you might want to run that extension in #12.
A place you could see in commercial would be a run of wire through an
area with very high ambient temperatures like a roof top, where you
have to derate the wire on that run.

On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:38:31 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.




Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.

Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment.


(Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never
once coming up with a useful solution)

Ralph already did. He pointed out that almost all the common light
fixtures in use in a house have wire that is smaller than the 14 gauge
that comes into it. Wire nuts are used to join the two. Also things
like light dimmers have wires that are smaller than the 14 gauge
circuit conductors.

If you look at a bag of wire nuts, they will have the combinations of
numbers of wires of different gauges that it's listed to be used with.
You'll see listed combinations like one #14 with two #18 for example.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:18:53 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 03:13 PM, wrote:
O(#18?) to the #14
house wiring?? VERY common situation. There are quite a few others.
One of the tricky ones is using the approved ACS marrette to pigtail a
awg14c wire to an awg12a.. The inspector will fail the joint if it is
pretwisted before installing the ACS - and the 14 copper and the 12
aluminum actually DO twist together rather well with the nut. - at
least with the second gen aluminum.




Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot
Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very
successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but
particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used
with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could
not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and
shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the
job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible.

I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:19:50 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 03:04 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote:

I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up
I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!




I gave my reason but my question was about using two different gauges
wires in a junction box
And I gave 2 answers.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:23:26 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.

If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong.








I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I
do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same
precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the
tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut
cracked and the shell portion would fall off.

You gotta use better wire nuts!



The one that broke was just a standard type


as to taping I checked a number of on-line advice pages and some
inspectors insist on wire nuts being taped and others say they shouldn't

No absolute answer one way or the other.

I say if I triple check the integrity to add tape is OK .

FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was
a factor?
possibly, but usually heat deforms thermoplastic nuts, and discolours
thermoset and phenolic long before they crack. Generally broken
wirenuts have been physically abused..

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 17:16:53 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!


I do have to admitt to a special case for me to tape a wire nut. Wiring
up motors where there is a lot of viberation I sometimes did tape up the
wire nuts. Two reasons. They may viberrate losses, but mainly because
being in close contact with the metal junction box it may take longer
for it to wear through. Tha this the only time I ever taped any in
thousands I installed when working.

That is another case where 2 different sizes of wires may be used. Often
the motor wires would be smaller than the feeder wires on those motors.

Just lay the wires next to each other and screw the nut on, then give it
a good tug.


On motors I generally like the vibration proof MARR type connectors
with the setscrews because you can only twist and untwist the internal
wires so many times until they get too short. The set-screw type can
be reconnected MANY times without damaging the wire. The 2SHD and 2SHP
type

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 19:22:31 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:


Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.


You would usually see this to mitigate voltage drop issues on a long
run of wire.
Say you had a 15a "outside" circuit and you want to extend that to a
shed 100 feet away, you might want to run that extension in #12.
A place you could see in commercial would be a run of wire through an
area with very high ambient temperatures like a roof top, where you
have to derate the wire on that run.
That too.

On 02/21/2017 08:49 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:23:26 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote:








FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was
a factor?
possibly, but usually heat deforms thermoplastic nuts, and discolours
thermoset and phenolic long before they crack. Generally broken
wirenuts have been physically abused..


It was in a junction box and though once I had a squirrel up in the
attic, that was one nut he would not have gotten to.

On 02/21/2017 08:47 PM, wrote:

Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot
Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very
successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but
particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used
with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could
not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and
shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the
job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible.

I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year.




I repaired industrial equipment for 38 years and did see some power
transformers that had aluminum windings. After enough of them burned up
they went back to copper.


I would never ever use that crap.

On 02/21/2017 06:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:




snip

You would usually see this to mitigate voltage drop issues on a long
run of wire.
Say you had a 15a "outside" circuit and you want to extend that to a
shed 100 feet away, you might want to run that extension in #12.
A place you could see in commercial would be a run of wire through an
area with very high ambient temperatures like a roof top, where you
have to derate the wire on that run.



Now that makes sense to me.

I would thing a tag of some sort in the breaker box would be a good idea
to inform anyone not to put it on a 20 amp circuit.

On 02/21/2017 08:48 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:19:50 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 03:04 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote:

I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up
I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!




I gave my reason but my question was about using two different gauges
wires in a junction box
And I gave 2 answers.



which I am now getting to, I have cut way back on Usenet

On 02/21/2017 04:16 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!.
He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't
go'nna fix it!!!


I do have to admitt to a special case for me to tape a wire nut. Wiring
up motors where there is a lot of viberation I sometimes did tape up the
wire nuts. Two reasons. They may viberrate losses, but mainly because
being in close contact with the metal junction box it may take longer
for it to wear through. Tha this the only time I ever taped any in
thousands I installed when working.

That is another case where 2 different sizes of wires may be used. Often
the motor wires would be smaller than the feeder wires on those motors.

Just lay the wires next to each other and screw the nut on, then give it
a good tug.





I don't think I've ever seen a motor that was not taped...and they
really tape them up well.

On 02/21/2017 06:45 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:38:31 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...



I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of
wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted
first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is
secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up

Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14
feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light.




Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea.

If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to
the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no
need to use #12 wire.


Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while
working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker
and put it on a 20 amp.

Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment.


(Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never
once coming up with a useful solution)

Ralph already did. He pointed out that almost all the common light
fixtures in use in a house have wire that is smaller than the 14 gauge
that comes into it. Wire nuts are used to join the two. Also things
like light dimmers have wires that are smaller than the 14 gauge
circuit conductors.

If you look at a bag of wire nuts, they will have the combinations of
numbers of wires of different gauges that it's listed to be used with.
You'll see listed combinations like one #14 with two #18 for example.




OK got it

On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 21:43:09 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2017 08:47 PM, wrote:

Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot
Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very
successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but
particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used
with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could
not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and
shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the
job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible.

I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year.




I repaired industrial equipment for 38 years and did see some power
transformers that had aluminum windings. After enough of them burned up
they went back to copper.


I would never ever use that crap.

There is plenty of aluminum wire being used out there but it is in lug
terminated devices not binding screws, although they fixed the screw
problem 40 years ago.
Since most lugs are aluminum themselves it actually can be a better
connection than you get with copper wire.

On 02/21/2017 10:43 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:47 PM, wrote:

Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot
Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very
successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but
particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used
with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could
not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and
shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the
job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible.

I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year.




I repaired industrial equipment for 38 years and did see some power
transformers that had aluminum windings. After enough of them burned
up they went back to copper.


I would never ever use that crap.


The underground wire from the poco transformer to my meter as well as
meter to entrance panel is all aluminum...though I do have it inspected
every 5 years...no burnt terminals yet.