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Electrical
I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's
interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct? Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I will if I have to. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...l-1124730-.htm |
Electrical
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:44:03 GMT, Robert
m wrote: I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct? Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I will if I have to. There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per sq/ft. Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a. The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40 years. As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at 2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box. (14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in) Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled. If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you popping breakers?" |
Electrical
On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 2:06:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 17:44:03 GMT, Robert m wrote: I have a junction box in my wall of an older home. here's where it's interesting...main line goes to middle room light and out into all outlets And lights on the next bedroom and into the bathroom to run everything. I'm pretty sure these rooms are supposed to be ok their own breakers, correct? Especially a bathroom. My other question is this, I found that there was about a foot of wire added on to what looks like game up short to connect all the power to lines. Very poorly connected. I managed to run out and get the Ideal Wire connectors and connect everything correctly but I also know that this can't stay permanent. I only did this to try and figure out what went to what in this mess. Would it be better to just run new romex or is it ok to have all these connectors in the box. I'm counting 6 conductors in one box but also that extra foot of romex so everything reached. I'm going to try to post a pic or two if someone's can even start to explain what the best route to go is. I really don't want to have to trace the lines all the way back to the box but I will if I have to. There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per sq/ft. Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a. The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40 years. As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at 2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box. (14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in) Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled. If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you popping breakers?" Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc. |
Electrical
On 02/20/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
O There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per sq/ft. Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a. The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40 years. As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at 2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box. (14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in) Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled. If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you popping breakers?" Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc. A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum. Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight. A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the wires lined up. A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? |
Electrical
On 02/20/2017 12:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight. A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the wires lined up. A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? I have not seen any info on the twist with the pliers , but some twist by hand. I always just line the wires up parallel and put the wire nut on. Either is recommended by the makers of the ones I use. Other companies may differ in their instructions. When done, give the wire nuts a good tug to see if they come off. Lately I have been using the WAGO Lever nuts. They cost a little more, but are so much easier for me to work with. Nothing to twist and if the correct wire sizes are used and stripped correctly, not much for human error. http://www.wago.us/wago/press/press-...etail-1122.jsp There are also some Wall Nuts that just push in. I use them for some things like ballasts replacement in lights. While they may be ok for the higher current applications, I don't use the push ins for that( much over 1 amp of current. Just my opinion on that. Never even heard of those WAGO. Sure they work but I prefer wire-to-wire connection. I'm sure I had just been a bit careless and not actually tugged on the connection. My house was built in 1898 and not wired until 1932. Fortunately it was all BX and rigid conduit. What prompted me to re-wire as one of the original connections finally failed, It must have gotten hot enough for the solder to melt or perhaps was poorly soldered to begin with. Almost all of the original wiring has been replaced and many new circuits added. The house averaged one outlet per room. |
Electrical
On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 12:15:37 PM UTC-6, philo wrote:
A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum. Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight. |
Electrical
On 02/20/2017 12:15 PM, philo wrote:
.... A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? Not required, maybe, is one? :) Ideal instructions are as follows: 1. Turn off power before removing or installing connectors. 2. Strip connectors to the correct strip length per the chart below: Connector Strip length 451® Strip solid wires 3/8 (9.5 mm) 452® Strip wires ½ (13 mm) 454® Strip wires 7/8 (22 mm) 3. Straighten and align frayed strands. 4. Hold wires together with ends even. Lead stranded wires slightly ahead of solid wires. 5. Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting; strip wires long, hold wires together with insulation even, twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length. 6. Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight. The primary reason _against_ imo is owing to the last part of 5. -- you have to be sure to strip enough extra you've got minimum length needed when done and then the extra step to trim. I think it's also more difficult to ensure you've got the torque/bite when have the bunch all solidly together first, but that's just opinion. I'm thinking there are some that say don't (twist, that is), but didn't look past the Ideal datasheet to try to actually find one. -- |
Electrical
On 02/20/2017 02:22 PM, dpb wrote:
On 02/20/2017 12:15 PM, philo wrote: ... A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? Not required, maybe, is one? :) Ideal instructions are as follows: 1. Turn off power before removing or installing connectors. 2. Strip connectors to the correct strip length per the chart below: Connector Strip length 451® Strip solid wires 3/8 (9.5 mm) 452® Strip wires ½ (13 mm) 454® Strip wires 7/8 (22 mm) 3. Straighten and align frayed strands. 4. Hold wires together with ends even. Lead stranded wires slightly ahead of solid wires. 5. Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting; strip wires long, hold wires together with insulation even, twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length. 6. Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight. The primary reason _against_ imo is owing to the last part of 5. -- you have to be sure to strip enough extra you've got minimum length needed when done and then the extra step to trim. I think it's also more difficult to ensure you've got the torque/bite when have the bunch all solidly together first, but that's just opinion. I'm thinking there are some that say don't (twist, that is), but didn't look past the Ideal datasheet to try to actually find one. -- I really like the idea of pre-twisting |
Electrical
On Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:15:29 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2017 11:13 AM, trader_4 wrote: O There is really no limit to the number of outlets on a general lighting circuit but the code implies that it should serve no more than 600 sq/ft for a 15a and 800 sq/ft for a 20a based on 3VA per sq/ft. Of course that is the minimum standard and the average of all of the circuits. For the last 20 years or so the bathroom should be on a separate 20a and the laundry are should have another dedicated 20a. The code has required 2 20a small appliance circuits for more like 40 years. As for box fill (the number of wires in there) you add the 14 ga up at 2 cu/in each and the 12ga at 2.25 cu/in each. Then add another 2x cu/in for each device depending on the size of the wires in the box. (14ga wires makes the device worth 4 cu/in) Lots of boxes in older homes are over filled. If you have empty slots in the panel, running a new romex and splitting this up is not a horrible idea but the question is, "are you popping breakers?" Another question is what's going on with that extra foot of wire that he says was added? Splice is in a box? Just hanging in the wall? It can probably be cleaned up and left on the one circuit, but like you say, it would be better if he can run a new circuit for the bathroom. And we don't know what actual loads are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc. A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum. Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight. A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the wires lined up. A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? When connecting 2 or 3 identical wires I don't pretwist. My father was an electrician and said a properly wirenutted connection WILL end up properly twisted and he'd never seen a wirenut come off if installed properly that way. A wirenut applied to a pre-twistedc connection stands a pretty good chance of falling off because the "teeth" in the spring are not firmly embedded in the copper of the wire. If connecting a14 and a 12 or any combination of the two, CAREFULL pretwisting can make a better connection because if "direct nutting" the 14 just wraps around the 12 - but the "teeth" in the spring do still bite. |
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Electrical
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong. I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut cracked and the shell portion would fall off. That said some people say that if one has a poor connection it would be better to just let the wire fall out rather than be held in place by tape. AFAIK there is no definitive answer |
Electrical
On 02/21/2017 9:29 AM, philo wrote:
.... AFAIK there is no definitive answer The definitive answer is the "workmanship" clause in NEC. |
Electrical
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 9:49:24 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong. +1 |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600
philo wrote: I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire Busted! You are a fraud. |
Electrical
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea. If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no need to use #12 wire. Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker and put it on a 20 amp. Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment. (Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never once coming up with a useful solution) |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2017 06:47 PM, wrote: Os are typically on it, is it close to overloaded, etc. A splice in a junction box is OK but I'd clean up the mess as much as possible to keep the junction boxes to a minimum. Maybe others here would know but I was always taught the just line up the bare ends of the wires, inset then in a wire nut and twist until tight. A few years ago I lost a connection due to me probably not getting the wires lined up. A friend who does electrical work told me he always grabs the end and twists with a pliers and makes sure all is secure before putting on the wire nut. Any one here know if there is any reason not to do that? When connecting 2 or 3 identical wires I don't pretwist. My father was an electrician and said a properly wirenutted connection WILL end up properly twisted and he'd never seen a wirenut come off if installed properly that way. A wirenut applied to a pre-twistedc connection stands a pretty good chance of falling off because the "teeth" in the spring are not firmly embedded in the copper of the wire. If connecting a14 and a 12 or any combination of the two, CAREFULL pretwisting can make a better connection because if "direct nutting" the 14 just wraps around the 12 - but the "teeth" in the spring do still bite. I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!. He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't go'nna fix it!!! |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong. I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut cracked and the shell portion would fall off. You gotta use better wire nuts! That said some people say that if one has a poor connection it would be better to just let the wire fall out rather than be held in place by tape. AFAIK there is no definitive answer |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:44:54 -0600, dpb wrote:
On 02/21/2017 9:29 AM, philo wrote: ... AFAIK there is no definitive answer The definitive answer is the "workmanship" clause in NEC. Correct. If it looks like crap, there is a pretty good chance it is. A properly wire-nutted connection doesn't need tape, so a taped wirenutted connection just screams "the guy who did this isn't confident of his workmanship - why should you be?" |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea. If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no need to use #12 wire. Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker and put it on a 20 amp. Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment. (Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never once coming up with a useful solution) How about when wire-nutting a flourescent ballast (#18?) to the #14 house wiring?? VERY common situation. There are quite a few others. One of the tricky ones is using the approved ACS marrette to pigtail a awg14c wire to an awg12a.. The inspector will fail the joint if it is pretwisted before installing the ACS - and the 14 copper and the 12 aluminum actually DO twist together rather well with the nut. - at least with the second gen aluminum. |
Electrical
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Electrical
On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote: On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong. I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut cracked and the shell portion would fall off. You gotta use better wire nuts! The one that broke was just a standard type as to taping I checked a number of on-line advice pages and some inspectors insist on wire nuts being taped and others say they shouldn't No absolute answer one way or the other. I say if I triple check the integrity to add tape is OK . FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was a factor? |
Electrical
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Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:38:25 -0600, philo wrote:
Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea. If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no need to use #12 wire. Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker and put it on a 20 amp. You would usually see this to mitigate voltage drop issues on a long run of wire. Say you had a 15a "outside" circuit and you want to extend that to a shed 100 feet away, you might want to run that extension in #12. A place you could see in commercial would be a run of wire through an area with very high ambient temperatures like a roof top, where you have to derate the wire on that run. |
Electrical
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:38:31 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea. If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no need to use #12 wire. Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker and put it on a 20 amp. Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment. (Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never once coming up with a useful solution) Ralph already did. He pointed out that almost all the common light fixtures in use in a house have wire that is smaller than the 14 gauge that comes into it. Wire nuts are used to join the two. Also things like light dimmers have wires that are smaller than the 14 gauge circuit conductors. If you look at a bag of wire nuts, they will have the combinations of numbers of wires of different gauges that it's listed to be used with. You'll see listed combinations like one #14 with two #18 for example. |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:18:53 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 03:13 PM, wrote: O(#18?) to the #14 house wiring?? VERY common situation. There are quite a few others. One of the tricky ones is using the approved ACS marrette to pigtail a awg14c wire to an awg12a.. The inspector will fail the joint if it is pretwisted before installing the ACS - and the 14 copper and the 12 aluminum actually DO twist together rather well with the nut. - at least with the second gen aluminum. Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible. I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year. |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:19:50 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 03:04 PM, wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote: I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!. He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't go'nna fix it!!! I gave my reason but my question was about using two different gauges wires in a junction box And I gave 2 answers. |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:23:26 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote: On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. If you have to use tape, you are doing something wrong. I DO NOT have to use tape. The connection is just fine without it. I do it as a precaution and many of the electricians take that same precaution as well. Because I now triple check the integrity I use the tape more as a precaution to prevent a short in the event a wire nut cracked and the shell portion would fall off. You gotta use better wire nuts! The one that broke was just a standard type as to taping I checked a number of on-line advice pages and some inspectors insist on wire nuts being taped and others say they shouldn't No absolute answer one way or the other. I say if I triple check the integrity to add tape is OK . FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was a factor? possibly, but usually heat deforms thermoplastic nuts, and discolours thermoset and phenolic long before they crack. Generally broken wirenuts have been physically abused.. |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 17:16:53 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!. He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't go'nna fix it!!! I do have to admitt to a special case for me to tape a wire nut. Wiring up motors where there is a lot of viberation I sometimes did tape up the wire nuts. Two reasons. They may viberrate losses, but mainly because being in close contact with the metal junction box it may take longer for it to wear through. Tha this the only time I ever taped any in thousands I installed when working. That is another case where 2 different sizes of wires may be used. Often the motor wires would be smaller than the feeder wires on those motors. Just lay the wires next to each other and screw the nut on, then give it a good tug. On motors I generally like the vibration proof MARR type connectors with the setscrews because you can only twist and untwist the internal wires so many times until they get too short. The set-screw type can be reconnected MANY times without damaging the wire. The 2SHD and 2SHP type |
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Electrical
On 02/21/2017 08:49 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:23:26 -0600, philo wrote: On 02/21/2017 03:05 PM, wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:29:12 -0600, philo wrote: FWIW: The broken wire nut I saw was up in an attic and possibly heat was a factor? possibly, but usually heat deforms thermoplastic nuts, and discolours thermoset and phenolic long before they crack. Generally broken wirenuts have been physically abused.. It was in a junction box and though once I had a squirrel up in the attic, that was one nut he would not have gotten to. |
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Electrical
On 02/21/2017 08:48 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:19:50 -0600, philo wrote: On 02/21/2017 03:04 PM, wrote: On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:14:27 -0600, philo wrote: I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!. He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't go'nna fix it!!! I gave my reason but my question was about using two different gauges wires in a junction box And I gave 2 answers. which I am now getting to, I have cut way back on Usenet |
Electrical
On 02/21/2017 04:16 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... I'd NEVEr tape a wirenut! My dad would have skinned me if I did!!. He'd say" if you are not 100% sure it's right, a piece of tape ain't go'nna fix it!!! I do have to admitt to a special case for me to tape a wire nut. Wiring up motors where there is a lot of viberation I sometimes did tape up the wire nuts. Two reasons. They may viberrate losses, but mainly because being in close contact with the metal junction box it may take longer for it to wear through. Tha this the only time I ever taped any in thousands I installed when working. That is another case where 2 different sizes of wires may be used. Often the motor wires would be smaller than the feeder wires on those motors. Just lay the wires next to each other and screw the nut on, then give it a good tug. I don't think I've ever seen a motor that was not taped...and they really tape them up well. |
Electrical
On 02/21/2017 06:45 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 3:38:31 PM UTC-5, philo wrote: On 02/21/2017 08:49 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: In article , says... I cannot picture a situation where I'd ever have two different gauges of wire but after that one let loose on me I've always pre-twisted first...then after the wire nut is on, tug on it to be sure all is secure,,,then as a final precaution, tape it all up Just about all the lights in a house has 2 sizes of wire. Usually a 14 feeding the light and one much smaller that comes with the light. Just realized . To me, using two different gauges is not a good idea. If you use 12 and 14 the circuit breaker could not exceed 15 amps due to the #14 wire. Since the breaker cannot exceed 15 amps then there is no need to use #12 wire. Additionally , somewhere down the road another owned of the house while working in the breaker box might see the #12 wire on a 15 amp breaker and put it on a 20 amp. Maybe another knowledgeable person here could comment. (Buford, Col Burke and Muggles are filter out of my feed due to never once coming up with a useful solution) Ralph already did. He pointed out that almost all the common light fixtures in use in a house have wire that is smaller than the 14 gauge that comes into it. Wire nuts are used to join the two. Also things like light dimmers have wires that are smaller than the 14 gauge circuit conductors. If you look at a bag of wire nuts, they will have the combinations of numbers of wires of different gauges that it's listed to be used with. You'll see listed combinations like one #14 with two #18 for example. OK got it |
Electrical
On Tue, 21 Feb 2017 21:43:09 -0600, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:47 PM, wrote: Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible. I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year. I repaired industrial equipment for 38 years and did see some power transformers that had aluminum windings. After enough of them burned up they went back to copper. I would never ever use that crap. There is plenty of aluminum wire being used out there but it is in lug terminated devices not binding screws, although they fixed the screw problem 40 years ago. Since most lugs are aluminum themselves it actually can be a better connection than you get with copper wire. |
Electrical
On 02/21/2017 10:43 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2017 08:47 PM, wrote: Anyone who would use aluminum wire is an idiot Actually, in a lot of situations it is still used today - very successfully. Not used in residential wiring any more, but particularly the 2nd generation stuff is fine, as long as it is used with the proper connections. I had to pigtail the devices that I could not replace with CoAlr devices, and the ACS Marrette is head and shoulders better than the ****ty ideal wirenuts that were sold for the job. There is no "plastic" in them and they are totally non-flamible. I had all the wiring in the house "recertified" last year. I repaired industrial equipment for 38 years and did see some power transformers that had aluminum windings. After enough of them burned up they went back to copper. I would never ever use that crap. The underground wire from the poco transformer to my meter as well as meter to entrance panel is all aluminum...though I do have it inspected every 5 years...no burnt terminals yet. |
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