On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.


If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about? A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

--
What would happen if you cut off your left side?
You would be all right.

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take. Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

--
A man goes into a library and asks for a book on suicide.
The librarian says, "**** off, you won't bring it back!"

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.



And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.


Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.


I can't believe you're so stupid period.

On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 7:40:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

I've had some appliances and equipment that had a fuse in the 120vac plug. I imagine it was less expensive than a separate fuse holder in the housing of the item. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Fusible Monster

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

And all shorts have no resistance of their own of course....

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

--
Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't point to their crotch when asking where the bathroom is?

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:51:30 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Thursday, January 12, 2017 at 7:40:40 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

I've had some appliances and equipment that had a fuse in the 120vac plug. I imagine it was less expensive than a separate fuse holder in the housing of the item. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Fusible Monster

It protects the cord. The Brits invented that years ago. Your country is so far behind....

--
Condoms aren't completely safe. A friend of mine was wearing one and got hit by a bus.

It happens that trader_4 formulated :
On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A
depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug
anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp
doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire.
Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to
trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

You left out the part about being barefoot on concrete after spilling a
bucket of sal****er. Details matter.

[...]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:32:34 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about? A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

If you have a cord less than the "fixture wire" standard (18ga) we do
require a fuse in the plug. An example is those cheap asian made
Christmas lights.

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

And all shorts have no resistance of their own of course....


That shorts have resistance of their own is part of the whole
point. You can't have it both ways. First you argue that a short
in a lamp is going to create a fire from the lamp cord if it's not
fused. Then you claim the short limits the current because of it's
resistance.




And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.


The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.



Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.


No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

And all shorts have no resistance of their own of course....


That shorts have resistance of their own is part of the whole
point. You can't have it both ways. First you argue that a short
in a lamp is going to create a fire from the lamp cord if it's not
fused. Then you claim the short limits the current because of it's
resistance.

It could easily limit it to anywhere between 1A and 15A, overloading the wire but not tripping the breaker.

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

--
Advice for office managers:
If you keep the sexual harassment complaint forms in the bottom drawer, then when a woman gets one out you'll get a great view of her arse.

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 21:53:13 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

a wire meant to handle 1a would be between 29 and 30 gauge and you
will never see that used for 120 or 240v.
I pointed out earlier the smallest "fixture wire" allowed in the NEC
is 18 gauge.(1mm)

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 22:54:47 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 21:53:13 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

a wire meant to handle 1a would be between 29 and 30 gauge and you
will never see that used for 120 or 240v.
I pointed out earlier the smallest "fixture wire" allowed in the NEC
is 18 gauge.(1mm)

I've seen 2A wires. What is the difference between 2 squared heating and 19 squared heating?

--
A friend will help you move house, a good friend will help you move a body.

On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer, blender,
are on the same breaker, would that be too much?
What should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker?
Should the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:47:29 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

a wire meant to handle 1a would be between 29 and 30 gauge and you
will never see that used for 120 or 240v.
I pointed out earlier the smallest "fixture wire" allowed in the NEC
is 18 gauge.(1mm)

I've seen 2A wires. What is the difference between 2 squared heating and 19 squared heating?

You may see them over there where you fuse plugs and the chinks use
some pretty cheap wire in those christmas light sets but they do have
a fuse in the plug. They deal with unfused plugs here be requiring a
minimum of 18 ga. That will hold 16a although the NEC limits it to 7.
In a bolted fault, that is more than enough to trip a 20 breaker.
The equipment that will get listed with an 18ga cord will draw less
than 7a, Usually it is just a lamp or a radio.

On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker? Should
the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

"&" wrote in message news
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker? Should
the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

elbow room

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

--
"I was walking down fifth avenue today and I found a wallet, and I was gonna keep it, rather than return it, but I thought: well, if I lost a hundred and fifty dollars, how would I feel? And I realized I would want to be taught a lesson."
-- Emo Philips

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:01:37 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:32:34 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about? A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

If you have a cord less than the "fixture wire" standard (18ga) we do
require a fuse in the plug. An example is those cheap asian made
Christmas lights.

The simplest thing to do is to fuse the appliance at its rating.

--
"I was walking down fifth avenue today and I found a wallet, and I was gonna keep it, rather than return it, but I thought: well, if I lost a hundred and fifty dollars, how would I feel? And I realized I would want to be taught a lesson."
-- Emo Philips

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

And all shorts have no resistance of their own of course....


That shorts have resistance of their own is part of the whole
point. You can't have it both ways. First you argue that a short
in a lamp is going to create a fire from the lamp cord if it's not
fused. Then you claim the short limits the current because of it's
resistance.

It could easily limit it to anywhere between 1A and 15A, overloading the wire but not tripping the breaker.


Yes, that's theoretically possible, but the wire will not heat anywhere
near enough to create a fire. Do the math.



And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.



Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.


You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 8:10:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:47:29 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

a wire meant to handle 1a would be between 29 and 30 gauge and you
will never see that used for 120 or 240v.
I pointed out earlier the smallest "fixture wire" allowed in the NEC
is 18 gauge.(1mm)

I've seen 2A wires. What is the difference between 2 squared heating and 19 squared heating?

You may see them over there where you fuse plugs and the chinks use
some pretty cheap wire in those christmas light sets but they do have
a fuse in the plug. They deal with unfused plugs here be requiring a
minimum of 18 ga. That will hold 16a although the NEC limits it to 7.
In a bolted fault, that is more than enough to trip a 20 breaker.
The equipment that will get listed with an 18ga cord will draw less
than 7a, Usually it is just a lamp or a radio.

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:26:39 -0800 (PST)
trader_4 wrote:



and

"James Wilkinson Sword"

should go holiday/vacation together.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.

On 1/14/2017 5:27 PM, & wrote:
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker? Should
the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

Oh DO shut the **** up, you igtard!
LOL

On 01/15/2017 12:33 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/14/2017 5:27 PM, & wrote:
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker?
Should the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

Oh DO shut the **** up, you igtard!


are you mad you are stupid

On 15/01/2017 01:27, & wrote:
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker? Should
the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

€œ&€� is an infamous and anonymous internet troll. He launches
scurrilous, defamatory, trivializing and false diatribes against
Mens Rights activists and their posts and against Mens Rights
organizations. He therefore, has as his goals the disruption of
soc.men and the thwarting of the legitimate goals of the mens
rights movement, and the denigration, trivialization and discrediting
of the leaders of the mens rights movement and mens rights
organizations.

FOAD TURIN you moron

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 11:56:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.

Even if you had 30A running through 18g, you only wind up with 36W over a
one meter lamp cord length.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:04:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 11:56:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.

Even if you had 30A running through 18g, you only wind up with 36W over a
one meter lamp cord length.

I guess those guys at NFPA who established the fixture wire standard
understand these things ;-)
If you noticed, the NRTLs stopped listing 18 ga extension cords too.
In a commercial setting most fire marshals will tag any extension cord
or plug strip that does not have a breaker in it and some will only
allow a plug strip if it is for surge protection.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 11:56:07 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.
They colonized Zambia.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:48:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

Why waste money having a thicker more clumsy 16A conductor when you can use a 1A one protected by the correct fuse?

--
What does a Polish woman do after she sucks a cock?
Spits out the feathers.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 3:32:40 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:53:48 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 2:01:02 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

If it's a decent short, it will greatly exceed the breaker rating
and trip instantly. If it's a short just right to consume a lot
of the current on the circuit but not trip it, eg a 12A short on
a 15A circuit, then you have that potential with all the wiring anyway
and we live with it and it does not appear to be a major cause of
fires. We also require arc fault breakers on many circuits now,
eg those in the living areas.

What are you talking about?

Reality, the way thing are.


A 1A cord may only take 10 amps through it during a short, and catch fire. Yet the 15A breaker won't trip.

Never said anything different. But a direct short will produce enough
current to trip the breaker, ending the problem before the cord can
heat up. Happens all the time. Stick a screwdriver in a light socket
and it causes a current that trips the breaker right away.

As I just said, the resistance of the thin cord won't let enough pass to trip the breaker.


BS. Just stop. Typical lamp cord wire will easily carry way more
than required to quickly trip the 15A circuit breaker, for a short
duration. What do you think the resistance of a couple meters of
lamp cord is? And if you don't believe it, go stick a screwdriver
in an unfused lamp socket and see.

And all shorts have no resistance of their own of course....


That shorts have resistance of their own is part of the whole
point. You can't have it both ways. First you argue that a short
in a lamp is going to create a fire from the lamp cord if it's not
fused. Then you claim the short limits the current because of it's
resistance.

It could easily limit it to anywhere between 1A and 15A, overloading the wire but not tripping the breaker.


Yes, that's theoretically possible, but the wire will not heat anywhere
near enough to create a fire. Do the math.

It's "maths" with an S you Yankee moron. Let me explain. P= I^2 R. The heat from 15 amps in the wire is TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE times greater.

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.



Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.


You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.



--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.

I have used a 13A extension cord at 13A 24/7. It gets well over body temperature. Multiply THAT by 19 squared.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

An electrode needs damp concrete to conduct. It's the water that conducts, aided by the surface area of the concrete. You need to put the concrete deep underground to make an electrode. I don't know about your weird concrete base housing, but ours has concrete round the edges, deep under the supporting walls. That foundation will probably touch the water table. So if there was a wire inside it, that wire would be earthed. But not the dry insulating parts of the concrete.

--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"

--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

I just connected a table lamp up in my garage, then interrupted the connection and tried to use the concrete floor to conduct. Guess what? No light from the bulb!

--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.concrete.org.uk/fingertip...display&id=996

"Moist concrete behaves as an electrolyte with resistivity of up to 100 ohm-m. Air dried concrete has a resistivity in the order of 10 000 ohm-m, whilst oven-dry concrete has a resistivity in the order of 100 000 000 ohm-m."

So unless your house is flooded, that's 10,000 ohms, even if your touching it with a 1m^2 foot! Now I know you're a dopey Neanderthal who can't understand maths, sorry "math", but even your feet aren't that big. And 10 kohms is a big RESISTANCE.

--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.cement.org/for-concrete-b...ctive-concrete

This is SPECIAL concrete, with stuff added to make it conduct more. It's still enough resistance to create a large heater. If you were right and it was a ground, that would short out their idea completely.

--
An old black-and-white photograph of a man milking a cow was sent to a photo-finishing company.
The man was sitting behind the cow, and all that was visible of him were his legs and feet.
A note accompanying the order read: "This is the only picture I have of my great grandfather. Please move the cow so I can see what he looked like."

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 01:09:41 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 00:47:29 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

a wire meant to handle 1a would be between 29 and 30 gauge and you
will never see that used for 120 or 240v.
I pointed out earlier the smallest "fixture wire" allowed in the NEC
is 18 gauge.(1mm)

I've seen 2A wires. What is the difference between 2 squared heating and 19 squared heating?

You may see them over there where you fuse plugs and the chinks use
some pretty cheap wire in those christmas light sets but they do have
a fuse in the plug. They deal with unfused plugs here be requiring a
minimum of 18 ga. That will hold 16a although the NEC limits it to 7.
In a bolted fault, that is more than enough to trip a 20 breaker.
The equipment that will get listed with an 18ga cord will draw less
than 7a, Usually it is just a lamp or a radio.

18 ga wire is pretty thick, not very useful for a table lamp or radio. We have nice flexible wires for those, usually 24 ga. A vacuum cleaner will have 20 ga. 18 ga is for things like kettles.

--
If you eat a judge's uniform you might contract a lawsuit.