On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:56:07 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.

12 ga (or a ring of 15 ga).

--
I am sorry I offended you - I should have lied.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 18:36:29 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 10:04:49 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 11:56:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.

Even if you had 30A running through 18g, you only wind up with 36W over a
one meter lamp cord length.

I guess those guys at NFPA who established the fixture wire standard
understand these things ;-)
If you noticed, the NRTLs stopped listing 18 ga extension cords too.
In a commercial setting most fire marshals will tag any extension cord
or plug strip that does not have a breaker in it and some will only
allow a plug strip if it is for surge protection.

Our extension cords have fuses in the plugs. So you can't go and plug two big appliances in the end and melt it.

And the better quality reel extensions have a thermal breaker inside incase you try to use it at full load for ages while it's coiled up.

--
I consider exercise vulgar, it makes people smell. -- Alec Yuill Thornton

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 19:10:55 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 11:56:07 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:32:37 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

James can't even apply Ohm's Law. 18g wire has a resistance of .02 ohms
per meter. Put 20A through it and you get 8 watts. That's 8 watts
distributed along a meter of wire. Actually, I guess it's 8 x 2,
since there are two wires in a lamp cord. But 16W along a meter of
wire is very little heat. Go over 20A and the breaker will open.
And we have the everday experience where if this was a real problem,
houses would be burning down from it and it would be addressed in the
code. Obviously it's not happening. Plus, as I pointed out earlier,
a direct, serious short will greatly exceed 20A, tripping the breaker
quickly, before the wire heats up.

Evidently they have 30ga wire on their 30a ring circuits so they need
fuses in the plugs. I guess the British Empire never colonized a place
with copper ore.
They colonized Zambia.

We colonized a lot of places, then we became politically correct and everything went tits up.

--
I'm not a "troll", I'm an Agitation Engineer.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 22:59:07 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

We colonized a lot of places, then we became politically correct and everything went tits up.

.... and you had to "cheap out" in the copper.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 00:30:22 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 22:59:07 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

We colonized a lot of places, then we became politically correct and everything went tits up.

... and you had to "cheap out" in the copper.

No, we use enough copper to carry the current required. Usually half what you do, as we have a higher domestic voltage, which allows us to have floppier flexes.

--
Ireland's worst air disaster occurred early this morning when a small two-seater Cessna plane crashed into a cemetery. Irish search and rescue workers have recovered 2826 bodies so far and expect that number to climb as digging continues into the night.

"Colonel Edmund J. Burke" wrote in message
...

On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer, blender,
are on the same breaker, would that be too much?
What should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker?
Should the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.

it worked

On 01/15/2017 10:30 PM, David wrote:


"Colonel Edmund J. Burke" wrote in message
...

On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker?
Should the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.

it worked


did you catch any thing

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:05:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:48:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

Why waste money having a thicker more clumsy 16A conductor when you can use a 1A one protected by the correct fuse?


It's not 16g, it's 18g for lamp cord, which isn't clumsy at all.
An obvious advantage to a heavier cord is that it's less likely to
get damaged, be able to take typical abuse, etc.

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:06:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Yes, that's theoretically possible, but the wire will not heat anywhere
near enough to create a fire. Do the math.

It's "maths" with an S you Yankee moron.

That must be some Britt thing you limey village idiot.


Let me explain. P= I^2 R. The heat from 15 amps in the wire is TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE times greater.


Heat in one meter of 18g lamp cord at 1A is a whopping .04 watts.
Heat in one meter of 18g lamp cord at 15A, is 225 times greater, it's a whopping
9 watts. Now explain to us how a fire starts from 9 watts in a meter
of lamp cord wire. Apparently you failed math, because you think
because something is 225 times greater, that means it must be HUUGE!
Stop embarrassing yourself.

And again, if this was a real problem, a real cause of fires, it would
have been addressed in the code. There are billions of these cords
in operation every day.

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.

I have used a 13A extension cord at 13A 24/7. It gets well over body temperature. Multiply THAT by 19 squared.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

An electrode needs damp concrete to conduct. It's the water that conducts, aided by the surface area of the concrete. You need to put the concrete deep underground to make an electrode. I don't know about your weird concrete base housing, but ours has concrete round the edges, deep under the supporting walls. That foundation will probably touch the water table. So if there was a wire inside it, that wire would be earthed. But not the dry insulating parts of the concrete.



Please test this out for us. Go stand in your bare feet on some typical concrete
floors that are on grade and grab one of those 220V conductors. Even better,
grab a higher voltage one. Report back (or not) the results.

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:44:28 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

I just connected a table lamp up in my garage, then interrupted the connection and tried to use the concrete floor to conduct. Guess what? No light from the bulb!


Guess what? The current sufficient to kill you won't light a table lamp.

On 1/15/2017 9:39 AM, & wrote:
On 01/15/2017 12:33 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/14/2017 5:27 PM, & wrote:
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep fryer,
blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too much? What
should be the maximum number of wall plugs on one breaker?
Should the overhead light be on a different breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in the
kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss Recktum's
colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

Oh DO shut the **** up, you igtard!


are you mad you are stupid

Ditto to you, rubber lips.
LOL

On 01/16/2017 12:21 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:39 AM, & wrote:
On 01/15/2017 12:33 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/14/2017 5:27 PM, & wrote:
On 01/14/2017 08:05 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/8/2017 3:04 PM, 01001100110 wrote:
If a refrigerator, microwave, large toaster oven, deep
fryer, blender, are on the same breaker, would that be too
much? What should be the maximum number of wall plugs on
one breaker? Should the overhead light be on a different
breaker?

There's a break in a wire that's knocked out all power in
the kitchen.


That wood be like a pack of savage sailors taking Miss
Recktum's colostomy hole after six months at sea.


is that your stage name

Oh DO shut the **** up, you igtard!


are you mad you are stupid

**** YOU.


i win

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.concrete.org.uk/fingertip...display&id=996

"Moist concrete behaves as an electrolyte with resistivity of up to 100 ohm-m. Air dried concrete has a resistivity in the order of 10 000 ohm-m, whilst oven-dry concrete has a resistivity in the order of 100 000 000 ohm-m.."

So unless your house is flooded, that's 10,000 ohms, even if your touching it with a 1m^2 foot! Now I know you're a dopey Neanderthal who can't understand maths, sorry "math", but even your feet aren't that big. And 10 kohms is a big RESISTANCE.


You should start with the fact that you don't understand the numbers you
are using. That number is 10,000 *ohm-meters* for the resistivity of
concrete, not square meters. And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:08:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:05:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:48:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

Why waste money having a thicker more clumsy 16A conductor when you can use a 1A one protected by the correct fuse?


It's not 16g, it's 18g for lamp cord, which isn't clumsy at all.
An obvious advantage to a heavier cord is that it's less likely to
get damaged, be able to take typical abuse, etc.

18g is rather thick for a lamp. We use that for a vacuum cleaner. I prefer a nice flexible wire.

--
Why do men find it difficult to make eye contact?
Breasts don't have eyes.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:18:43 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:06:58 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Yes, that's theoretically possible, but the wire will not heat anywhere
near enough to create a fire. Do the math.

It's "maths" with an S you Yankee moron.

That must be some Britt thing you limey village idiot.

Do you say mathematics or mathematic?

Let me explain. P= I^2 R. The heat from 15 amps in the wire is TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE times greater.

Heat in one meter of 18g lamp cord at 1A is a whopping .04 watts.
Heat in one meter of 18g lamp cord at 15A, is 225 times greater, it's a whopping
9 watts. Now explain to us how a fire starts from 9 watts in a meter
of lamp cord wire. Apparently you failed math, because you think
because something is 225 times greater, that means it must be HUUGE!
Stop embarrassing yourself.

And again, if this was a real problem, a real cause of fires, it would
have been addressed in the code. There are billions of these cords
in operation every day.

We don't use 18g in lamp cords, as we have the sense to fuse them adequately.

--
The scientific name for an animal that doesn't either run from or fight its enemies is "Lunch."

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:21:21 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.

I have used a 13A extension cord at 13A 24/7. It gets well over body temperature. Multiply THAT by 19 squared.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

An electrode needs damp concrete to conduct. It's the water that conducts, aided by the surface area of the concrete. You need to put the concrete deep underground to make an electrode. I don't know about your weird concrete base housing, but ours has concrete round the edges, deep under the supporting walls. That foundation will probably touch the water table. So if there was a wire inside it, that wire would be earthed. But not the dry insulating parts of the concrete.



Please test this out for us. Go stand in your bare feet on some typical concrete
floors that are on grade and grab one of those 220V conductors. Even better,
grab a higher voltage one. Report back (or not) the results.

Dry concrete is a good insulator.
Wet concrete is a poor conductor (but good enough to give you a shock).
Tell me why your concrete floor is damp.

--
Negligent (adj.), describes a condition in which you absentmindedly answer the door in your nightgown.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.

--
I was telling a girl in the pub about my ability to guess what day a woman was born just by feeling her boobs.
"Really" she said, "Go on then.... try."
After about 30 seconds of fondling she began to lose patience and said, "Come on, what day was I born?"
I said, "Yesterday."

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:33:24 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:44:28 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

I just connected a table lamp up in my garage, then interrupted the connection and tried to use the concrete floor to conduct. Guess what? No light from the bulb!


Guess what? The current sufficient to kill you won't light a table lamp.

A meter confirms the resistance between ground and my garage floor is 8 Mohms. And it's just been ****ing with rain.

--
I was telling a girl in the pub about my ability to guess what day a woman was born just by feeling her boobs.
"Really" she said, "Go on then.... try."
After about 30 seconds of fondling she began to lose patience and said, "Come on, what day was I born?"
I said, "Yesterday."

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 6:53:44 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:08:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:05:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:48:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

Why waste money having a thicker more clumsy 16A conductor when you can use a 1A one protected by the correct fuse?


It's not 16g, it's 18g for lamp cord, which isn't clumsy at all.
An obvious advantage to a heavier cord is that it's less likely to
get damaged, be able to take typical abuse, etc.

18g is rather thick for a lamp. We use that for a vacuum cleaner. I prefer a nice flexible wire.


Then by all means, stay in the UK and don't ever come here. Real
men don't find 18g lamp cord inflexible.

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:37:36 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:21:21 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.

I have used a 13A extension cord at 13A 24/7. It gets well over body temperature. Multiply THAT by 19 squared.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on..
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

An electrode needs damp concrete to conduct. It's the water that conducts, aided by the surface area of the concrete. You need to put the concrete deep underground to make an electrode. I don't know about your weird concrete base housing, but ours has concrete round the edges, deep under the supporting walls. That foundation will probably touch the water table. So if there was a wire inside it, that wire would be earthed. But not the dry insulating parts of the concrete.



Please test this out for us. Go stand in your bare feet on some typical concrete
floors that are on grade and grab one of those 220V conductors. Even better,
grab a higher voltage one. Report back (or not) the results.

Dry concrete is a good insulator.
Wet concrete is a poor conductor (but good enough to give you a shock).
Tell me why your concrete floor is damp.


Because it's poured ON GRADE, idiot.

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:38:08 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on..
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.


And then you incorrectly converted resistivity to resistance, didn't
even understand the units. Obviously you don't understand the
basic concepts. We do. So do the engineers around the world that
use Ufer grounds. Thousands are being poured today, including all
over Europe.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:30:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.concrete.org.uk/fingertip...display&id=996

"Moist concrete behaves as an electrolyte with resistivity of up to 100 ohm-m. Air dried concrete has a resistivity in the order of 10 000 ohm-m, whilst oven-dry concrete has a resistivity in the order of 100 000 000 ohm-m."

So unless your house is flooded, that's 10,000 ohms, even if your touching it with a 1m^2 foot! Now I know you're a dopey Neanderthal who can't understand maths, sorry "math", but even your feet aren't that big. And 10 kohms is a big RESISTANCE.


You should start with the fact that you don't understand the numbers you
are using. That number is 10,000 *ohm-meters* for the resistivity of
concrete, not square meters.

Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.

And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

--
Every time I sink ten pints, I turn into a woman. I start talking ******** and can't drive.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:19:31 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 6:53:44 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:08:46 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:05:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:48:35 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 15:25:28 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 15:58:35 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:00:57 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:40:22 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:16:47 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Aren't the outlets also protected at 10a?

No, but the plug itself on each appliance has a fuse from 1A to 13A depending on the appliance.

That is actually not a bad idea.

It's an obvious idea, don't your plugs have fuses yet? You can plug anything into an outlet, if it's a 13A outlet, your 0.5A table lamp doesn't have its cord protected against fire from a short.

We just require that "fixture wires" be of sufficient size to operate
the breaker. (typically 18 ga for 15 and 20a circuits)

If you can't see that a 1A fuse is preferable to a 15A fuse, you're an idiot.

Why would I put a 1a fuse on a 16a conductor? If the equipment
requires supplemental protection, there will be a fuse in it.

Why waste money having a thicker more clumsy 16A conductor when you can use a 1A one protected by the correct fuse?


It's not 16g, it's 18g for lamp cord, which isn't clumsy at all.
An obvious advantage to a heavier cord is that it's less likely to
get damaged, be able to take typical abuse, etc.

18g is rather thick for a lamp. We use that for a vacuum cleaner. I prefer a nice flexible wire.


Then by all means, stay in the UK and don't ever come here. Real
men don't find 18g lamp cord inflexible.

But it's not the men that are flexing it, it's gravity.

--
How do they seperate the men from the boys in the Navy?
With a crowbar.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:20:13 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:37:36 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:21:21 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:16:45 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

And just like with that cord, if there is a partial short
in a branch circuit that produces a current under the breaker limit,
it can start a fire, without tripping the breaker. According to you,
you Britts have all your receptacles on one 30A circuit. What happens
if you have a partial short that results in a current of 10A?
You have ~2.5KW, which is more than enough to start a fire. Yet you
apparently live with that.

Fire can only start if the current is higher than the wire carrying it can take.

That's absolutely false. A piece of paper on an electric stove proves
it. In the real world, fires start from bad, loose connections, from
arcing, etc.

But heating the whole wire is far far worse.

The whole point is that if the lamp is shorted, say by inserting
a screwdriver in it, there will be a high current that exceeds
the 15A, 20A circuit breaker, tripping it almost instantly,
*before* the wire can get hot. Even if there is some odd short
that takes the current to just under the breaker limit, it
will will not generate anywhere near enough heat in a lamp cord
to create a fire. If you understood basic electricity, you could
do the math to see that you're wrong.

A wire that is meant to take 1A will get 19 squared times hotter at 19A. That's very hot.

No, it;s not very hot. If you did the math, you;d stop embarrassing
yourself. Resistance of 18g lamp cord is .02 ohms per meter. Put 20A
through it and you get a whopping 8 watts, distributed over a meter
of wire. That isn't "very hot", nowhere near what it takes to start
a fire. Where is a fire likely to actually start? Where the wire
is damaged, at bad connections that overheat or arc, etc. And those
fires will start even with 12g wire on a 20A circuit.

I have used a 13A extension cord at 13A 24/7. It gets well over body temperature. Multiply THAT by 19 squared.

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

An electrode needs damp concrete to conduct. It's the water that conducts, aided by the surface area of the concrete. You need to put the concrete deep underground to make an electrode. I don't know about your weird concrete base housing, but ours has concrete round the edges, deep under the supporting walls. That foundation will probably touch the water table. So if there was a wire inside it, that wire would be earthed. But not the dry insulating parts of the concrete.



Please test this out for us. Go stand in your bare feet on some typical concrete
floors that are on grade and grab one of those 220V conductors. Even better,
grab a higher voltage one. Report back (or not) the results.

Dry concrete is a good insulator.
Wet concrete is a poor conductor (but good enough to give you a shock).
Tell me why your concrete floor is damp.


Because it's poured ON GRADE, idiot.

The dampness years after pouring is nothing to do with the pouring.

--
A blue whale's heart is roughly the size of a VW Beetle, and its aorta is large enough for a human to crawl through.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:09 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:38:08 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.


And then you incorrectly converted resistivity to resistance, didn't
even understand the units. Obviously you don't understand the
basic concepts. We do. So do the engineers around the world that
use Ufer grounds. Thousands are being poured today, including all
over Europe.

Why do you keep equating an ufer ground to a house footing? They are not the same shape at all. An ufer ground requires that some of the concrete is below the water table.

--
In the UK, 17% of employees are health and safety officers.
Say NO! to health and safety in the workplace, before there are no real workers left!
Look out for yourself and stop blaming each other like 6 year olds!

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:09 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:38:08 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.


And then you incorrectly converted resistivity to resistance, didn't
even understand the units. Obviously you don't understand the
basic concepts. We do. So do the engineers around the world that
use Ufer grounds. Thousands are being poured today, including all
over Europe.

You're misunderstanding an ufer ground completely. Standing barefoot on a concrete floor is not the same as touching a steel rod which uns for many may metres through the concrete. What area are your foot soles? What area is that long copper rod?

--
In the UK, 17% of employees are health and safety officers.
Say NO! to health and safety in the workplace, before there are no real workers left!
Look out for yourself and stop blaming each other like 6 year olds!

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:29:30 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:30:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on..
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.concrete.org.uk/fingertip...display&id=996

"Moist concrete behaves as an electrolyte with resistivity of up to 100 ohm-m. Air dried concrete has a resistivity in the order of 10 000 ohm-m, whilst oven-dry concrete has a resistivity in the order of 100 000 000 ohm-m."

So unless your house is flooded, that's 10,000 ohms, even if your touching it with a 1m^2 foot! Now I know you're a dopey Neanderthal who can't understand maths, sorry "math", but even your feet aren't that big. And 10 kohms is a big RESISTANCE.


You should start with the fact that you don't understand the numbers you
are using. That number is 10,000 *ohm-meters* for the resistivity of
concrete, not square meters.

Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.



And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems..


Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 4:40:32 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword

Why do you keep equating an ufer ground to a house footing?

I never have, they are obviously two different things. A Ufer
ground can be part of a footing, but it does not have to be.


They are not the same shape at all. An ufer ground requires that some of the concrete is below the water table.


BS, that is a lie. Ufer grounds are poured in slabs on grade all
the time.

http://ecmweb.com/site-files/ecmweb....506ecm1701.jpg

Or he

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=144911

See the grass growing next to the slab on grade the Ufer is in?
Is that where the water table is, at the surface of the ground
where the grass is growing?

Idiot.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 4:44:38 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:09 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:38:08 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.


And then you incorrectly converted resistivity to resistance, didn't
even understand the units. Obviously you don't understand the
basic concepts. We do. So do the engineers around the world that
use Ufer grounds. Thousands are being poured today, including all
over Europe.

You're misunderstanding an ufer ground completely. Standing barefoot on a concrete floor is not the same as touching a steel rod which uns for many may metres through the concrete. What area are your foot soles? What area is that long copper rod?


You're the idiot that claimed concrete is an "insulator". If that were
true, a Ufer ground, which is a concrete encased electrode, would not
work. In fact, they are one of the preferred, probably the most preferred
earth ground used. I said from the beginning that if you dried concrete
out in an oven, then it' resistance would be very high. But Ufers are
not in oven dried concrete, or even air dried concrete. They are in
concrete that is in direct contact with the earth. And no, despite your
BS claims, there is no reqt that it be at or below the water table.

Hell, 20 posts ago, you didn't even know the term "Ufer". Now you
know the term, but still don't know WTF it is.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:29:32 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:29:30 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:30:23 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:47:54 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.concrete.org.uk/fingertip...display&id=996

"Moist concrete behaves as an electrolyte with resistivity of up to 100 ohm-m. Air dried concrete has a resistivity in the order of 10 000 ohm-m, whilst oven-dry concrete has a resistivity in the order of 100 000 000 ohm-m."

So unless your house is flooded, that's 10,000 ohms, even if your touching it with a 1m^2 foot! Now I know you're a dopey Neanderthal who can't understand maths, sorry "math", but even your feet aren't that big. And 10 kohms is a big RESISTANCE.


You should start with the fact that you don't understand the numbers you
are using. That number is 10,000 *ohm-meters* for the resistivity of
concrete, not square meters.

Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.

Have a little think about it. It IS ohms. It's ohms if you consider a cubic metre of the substance. Now think about the actual shape of it you're using when you're "earthed" by your feet on it.

And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

Is it wet or not? Stop making up terms. We don't talk about "grade" here., whatever that is.

--
After Christmas vacation, an elementary school teacher was asking her students how they celebrated Christmas.
When she got to Sammy, whose father ran a local toy store, she said, "Sammy, since you're Jewish, I guess your family didn't celebrate Christmas."
Sammy replied, "Oh yes, we did. We all held hands and danced around the cash register singing, 'What A Friend We Have In Jesus.'

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:39:33 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 4:40:32 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword

Why do you keep equating an ufer ground to a house footing?

I never have, they are obviously two different things. A Ufer
ground can be part of a footing, but it does not have to be.

You bring up ufers whenever we talk about house footings.

They are not the same shape at all. An ufer ground requires that some of the concrete is below the water table.

BS, that is a lie. Ufer grounds are poured in slabs on grade all
the time.

http://ecmweb.com/site-files/ecmweb....506ecm1701.jpg

Or he

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=144911

Oh look, so many metal things in direct contact with the ground, OUTSIDE the concrete.

See the grass growing next to the slab on grade the Ufer is in?
Is that where the water table is, at the surface of the ground
where the grass is growing?

Idiot.

No, it's lower. Dig a hole and see how deep before it fills with water.

--
Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked into jet engines.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:44:20 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 4:44:38 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:09 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 7:38:08 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:30:59 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:26:39 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 14, 2017 at 4:53:16 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 16:21:37 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 5:32:57 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 21:38:15 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

Every wire should be fused at the limit of that wire. I can't believe you guys are stupid enough to have 1 amp cord protected at 15 amps.

I can't believe you're so stupid period.

Thanks for proving my point that you're an idiot. Your reply has no information in it whatsoever.

No, clearly the problem is that you can't understand or just ignore
the information
provided. As exemplified by your stupidity on claiming concrete
is an insulator. Everyone
here provided you with overwhelming info from credible source, eg
code authorities that cite concrete encased electrodes as one of
the preferred earth grounds, yet you just ignore it and drone on.
Now you're doing the same dumb thing again.

I have a multimeter, I know it's an insulator. But then my concrete isn't dunked below the water table like an electrode. We were discussing concrete slab under a house, which will not be even damp, or you'd have a very soggy carpet.

Again fool, look up concrete encased electrode.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

"When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

The Ufer Ground is an electrical earth grounding method developed during World War II. It uses a concrete-encased electrode to improve grounding in dry areas. The technique is used in construction of concrete foundations.
During World War II, the U.S. Army required a grounding system for bomb storage vaults near Tucson and Flagstaff, Arizona. Conventional grounding systems did not work well in this location since the desert terrain had no water table and very little rainfall. The extremely dry soil conditions would have required hundreds of feet of copper rods to be inserted into the ground in order to create a low enough impedance ground to protect the buildings from lightning strikes.

You;re like a compass that constantly points in the wrong direction.
Pretty much whatever you say, we know it's wrong.

http://www.engineeringcivil.com/elec...potential.html

"Normal concrete is effectively an insulator in the dry state"


Note that your source is promoting a new product, "conductive concrete",
which is enhanced to make it MORE conductive than regular concrete.
The problem with the above is that is specifies "dry state", but does
not define dry. I said in my very first post that concrete that is
totally dried out, eg in an oven, would have low conductivity. But that
isn't the concrete in a typical floor in a house, garage, industrial
building, basement, etc.

I've previously given you a link which showed resistivity when wet, dry, and oven dry.


And then you incorrectly converted resistivity to resistance, didn't
even understand the units. Obviously you don't understand the
basic concepts. We do. So do the engineers around the world that
use Ufer grounds. Thousands are being poured today, including all
over Europe.

You're misunderstanding an ufer ground completely. Standing barefoot on a concrete floor is not the same as touching a steel rod which uns for many may metres through the concrete. What area are your foot soles? What area is that long copper rod?


You're the idiot that claimed concrete is an "insulator". If that were
true, a Ufer ground, which is a concrete encased electrode, would not
work. In fact, they are one of the preferred, probably the most preferred
earth ground used. I said from the beginning that if you dried concrete
out in an oven, then it' resistance would be very high. But Ufers are
not in oven dried concrete, or even air dried concrete. They are in
concrete that is in direct contact with the earth. And no, despite your
BS claims, there is no reqt that it be at or below the water table.

Hell, 20 posts ago, you didn't even know the term "Ufer". Now you
know the term, but still don't know WTF it is.

I understand it perfectly. There is virtually nothing that is a pure insulator or a conductor. An ufer uses a very very poor conductor (ie. an insulator, concrete), but a very large amount of it. Now, how large are your feet?

--
If the world were a logical place, then men would ride sidesaddle -- Rita May Brown

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 22:07:21 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=144911

Oh look, so many metal things in direct contact with the ground, OUTSIDE the concrete.

In most residential you will not have any of those so they require the
Ufer now. Note that it says "electrodes that are present" and none of
them will be.
We used to have a great grounding grid when the whole city was bonded
together with a metal piping system.
Pipes are all plastic now.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:30:56 -0000, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 22:07:21 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=144911

Oh look, so many metal things in direct contact with the ground, OUTSIDE the concrete.

In most residential you will not have any of those so they require the
Ufer now. Note that it says "electrodes that are present" and none of
them will be.
We used to have a great grounding grid when the whole city was bonded
together with a metal piping system.
Pipes are all plastic now.

I have no grounding in my house at all. The ground is supplied by the electricity company at the substation (transformer) for the street. Presumably they have a big rod or something. A two core cable comes to my house, ground and 240V live.

--
If one of the questions in a GCSE exam was "express 4.8% as a fraction", most would write "low battery".

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:05:25 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.

Have a little think about it. It IS ohms. It's ohms if you consider a cubic metre of the substance.

No, it's not. Resistance and Resistivity are two different things.
One is measured in ohms, the other ohms-meter and you don't understand
the difference.


Now think about the actual shape of it you're using when you're "earthed" by your feet on it.

And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

Is it wet or not? Stop making up terms. We don't talk about "grade" here., whatever that is.



Clueless as always, and incapable of even understanding pictures. I gave
you a link that shows a Ufer electrode inside a slab poured on grade,
which is the SURFACE OF THE EARTH. It even had grass growing next to it.
It's not "below the water table", which was your idiotic claim for a Ufer
to work.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:07:54 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:05:25 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.

Have a little think about it. It IS ohms. It's ohms if you consider a cubic metre of the substance.

No, it's not. Resistance and Resistivity are two different things.
One is measured in ohms, the other ohms-meter and you don't understand
the difference.

Resistivity is defined as ohms through a metre squared block. Jeez you're thick.

Now think about the actual shape of it you're using when you're "earthed" by your feet on it.

Much less than a metre squared.

And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

Is it wet or not? Stop making up terms. We don't talk about "grade" here., whatever that is.

Clueless as always, and incapable of even understanding pictures. I gave
you a link that shows a Ufer electrode inside a slab poured on grade,
which is the SURFACE OF THE EARTH. It even had grass growing next to it.
It's not "below the water table", which was your idiotic claim for a Ufer
to work.

It's got metal rods in contact with a lot more concrete than your foot.

--
Aristotle believed wind direction determined whether a baby would be a boy or a girl.

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 5:12:36 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:07:54 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:05:25 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.

Have a little think about it. It IS ohms. It's ohms if you consider a cubic metre of the substance.

No, it's not. Resistance and Resistivity are two different things.
One is measured in ohms, the other ohms-meter and you don't understand
the difference.

Resistivity is defined as ohms through a metre squared block. Jeez you're thick.

Then why did you take resistivity, which is in ohm - meters and claim
it's the resistance you'd obtain standing on the floor?




Now think about the actual shape of it you're using when you're "earthed" by your feet on it.

Much less than a metre squared.

And is the floor a meter thick, idiot?



And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

Is it wet or not? Stop making up terms. We don't talk about "grade" here., whatever that is.

Clueless as always, and incapable of even understanding pictures. I gave
you a link that shows a Ufer electrode inside a slab poured on grade,
which is the SURFACE OF THE EARTH. It even had grass growing next to it.
It's not "below the water table", which was your idiotic claim for a Ufer
to work.

It's got metal rods in contact with a lot more concrete than your foot.



Which wouldn't matter if a concrete slab was an insulator, like you claimed.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:46:38 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 5:12:36 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:07:54 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 5:05:25 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


Since your foot is less than a square metre, hat makes it a higher number than that.


Again, you don't understand that the unit is ohms-meter and that
resistivity is not resistance.

Have a little think about it. It IS ohms. It's ohms if you consider a cubic metre of the substance.

No, it's not. Resistance and Resistivity are two different things.
One is measured in ohms, the other ohms-meter and you don't understand
the difference.

Resistivity is defined as ohms through a metre squared block. Jeez you're thick.

Then why did you take resistivity, which is in ohm - meters and claim
it's the resistance you'd obtain standing on the floor?

I claimed standing on the floor would make it significantly higher than the standard ohms per metre cubed.

Now think about the actual shape of it you're using when you're "earthed" by your feet on it.

Much less than a metre squared.

And is the floor a meter thick, idiot?

Please think before making a fool of yourself. Make the floor 10cm thick, and you have decreased the resistance by a factor of 10. Make your foot 24 x 8cm and you have increased the resistance by a factor of 52.

And then proceed understanding that a
concrete floor on grade is not "air dried".

Next!

My floor isn't resting on a water table. If it was I'd have big problems.

Sitting on grade is not sitting on a water table, idiot.

Is it wet or not? Stop making up terms. We don't talk about "grade" here., whatever that is.

Clueless as always, and incapable of even understanding pictures. I gave
you a link that shows a Ufer electrode inside a slab poured on grade,
which is the SURFACE OF THE EARTH. It even had grass growing next to it.
It's not "below the water table", which was your idiotic claim for a Ufer
to work.

It's got metal rods in contact with a lot more concrete than your foot.

Which wouldn't matter if a concrete slab was an insulator, like you claimed.

No such thing as a pure insulator. Remove your pedantry and the conversation can continue.

--
Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia - The fear of long words.