What size breaker and wire do I need to use for a new installation (not new
oven) of a 5200W wall oven.

2 lines of text for electrical.
120/240 VAC. 60HZ. 5.2KW. 3 WIRE
120/208 VAC. 60HZ. 3.95KW. 3 WIRE

Current wires coming out of the oven are 3 at 12 AWG black, red, green, and a
16 AWG white. I am not sure if they are original to the oven or not.
I couldn't find the manual online. I acquired this oven used.

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

30a based on a 21.66a load (5200/240) but the real answer is in the
installation manual. My new GE oven calls for a 20. It may not have
the same power elements in it tho.



On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:14:01 +0000, Brent
m wrote:

What size breaker and wire do I need to use for a new installation (not new
oven) of a 5200W wall oven.

2 lines of text for electrical.
120/240 VAC. 60HZ. 5.2KW. 3 WIRE
120/208 VAC. 60HZ. 3.95KW. 3 WIRE

Current wires coming out of the oven are 3 at 12 AWG black, red, green, and a
16 AWG white. I am not sure if they are original to the oven or not.
I couldn't find the manual online. I acquired this oven used.

Brent m writes:
What size breaker and wire do I need to use for a new installation (not new
oven) of a 5200W wall oven.

2 lines of text for electrical.
120/240 VAC. 60HZ. 5.2KW. 3 WIRE
120/208 VAC. 60HZ. 3.95KW. 3 WIRE

Current wires coming out of the oven are 3 at 12 AWG black, red, green, and a
16 AWG white. I am not sure if they are original to the oven or not.
I couldn't find the manual online. I acquired this oven used.


P = VA

A = V/P


12AWG is insufficient at 208 or 240VAC.

In article .com,
Brent m wrote:

What size breaker and wire do I need to use for a new installation (not new
oven) of a 5200W wall oven.

2 lines of text for electrical.
120/240 VAC. 60HZ. 5.2KW. 3 WIRE
120/208 VAC. 60HZ. 3.95KW. 3 WIRE

Current wires coming out of the oven are 3 at 12 AWG black, red, green, and a
16 AWG white. I am not sure if they are original to the oven or not.
I couldn't find the manual online. I acquired this oven used.

Brent-

Red and Black wires should go to each side of 240 VAC, White should go
to Neutral or Common, and Green should go to the metal frame. But you
need to verify how the wires are connected inside the oven, or you could
have a serious problem.

Your oven would draw 21.7 Amperes for 5200 Watts. A dual 25 Amp breaker
should be OK unless there is a 120 VAC outlet. In that case, I'd go for
a bigger breaker.

I'm not familiar with the codes that specify required wire size. 12 AWG
might be OK for 30 Amps, but I would prefer 10 AWG.

Fred

replying to Brent, Brent wrote:
I did just finally find an Amana document with my model number that adds 40amp
to the end of the electrical lines of text on model plate. So would that mean
I need a 40A breaker and 10 gauge wire?

In the manual it says:
"Line Voltage Requirements Line voltage must not exceed rated voltage. Line
voltage less than rated voltage will result in slow heating. Wiring system
must conform to U.L. Standards and National Electrical Code. Installation must
conform to all local, municipal and state building codes, and local utility
regulations. Oven must be connected only to a supplied circuit as specified on
rating plate. This oven requires 3 wires, 115/230-120/240 volts, 60 Hertz A.C.
Unit is equipped with a No. 10 ground wire in conduit. Oven should be fused
separately from other appliances. Verify electric power is off from fuse box
to junction box until oven is installed and ready to operate."

Maybe I need to open it up where the flex conduit enters the oven and see what
else I can find...

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

replying to Brent, Brent wrote:
here are the from the spec sheet I was able to locate

Electrical Requirements
120/240 VAC, 60 Hz, 5.2 Kw, 3-wire, 40 Amp
120/208 VAC, 60 Hz, 3.95 Kw, 3-wire, 40 Amp
Oven Wattage @ 240V
Bake 2,000
Broil, Insta-BroilTM 3,000

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

Fred McKenzie wrote in -
75-242-165.myvzw.com:

I'm not familiar with the codes that specify required wire size.

Then you probably shouldn't be trying to offer wiring advice.

replying to Brent, Tony944 wrote:
As you stated your oven have two settings one is for bake and other to Broil.
I am sure you can use one or the other but "NOT" both at the same time!
At the broil rough estimate of current would be 13-14 Amps.
On the bake again rough estimate current will be 9-10 Amps.
This is base on 220 power source, number 12 wire would be sufficient enough.
Likewise the breaker 20-25 Amps ok. Two poles!!
Your white wire is for lights and possible outlet if it has one€¦



--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
replying to Brent, Brent wrote:
I did just finally find an Amana document with my model number that adds 40amp
to the end of the electrical lines of text on model plate. So would that mean
I need a 40A breaker and 10 gauge wire?

We don't know because we can't see what you're reading, don't know
how you're interpreting it, don't know what exactly is on the eqpt
plate, in the manual, etc. But if it needs 40A, then you need 8g wire.

How you get to 40A, IDK, because all I see is 22A at 240V = 5200 watts
But a typical oven could by 40A.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 23:03:25 +0100, Doug Miller wrote:

Fred McKenzie wrote in -
75-242-165.myvzw.com:

I'm not familiar with the codes that specify required wire size.

Then you probably shouldn't be trying to offer wiring advice.

Some people prefer physics to regulations.

--
Can you grow birds by planting birdseed?

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 6:14:06 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:
replying to Brent, Tony944 wrote:
As you stated your oven have two settings one is for bake and other to Broil.
I am sure you can use one or the other but "NOT" both at the same time!
At the broil rough estimate of current would be 13-14 Amps.
On the bake again rough estimate current will be 9-10 Amps.

Very odd then that it says 5200W at 240V. It would also be odd
for a new oven to use just 14 amps. They don't typically wire them up
with 40A circuits for nothing. It would take a very long time to
wait for your dinner. Do you like to wait?



This is base on 220 power source, number 12 wire would be sufficient enough.

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it exists somewhere
in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common. Apparently Amana thinks so too,
they spec the oven at 240V.


Likewise the breaker 20-25 Amps ok. Two poles!!
Your white wire is for lights and possible outlet if it has one€¦



--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 17:14:01 +0100, Brent m wrote:

What size breaker and wire do I need to use for a new installation (not new
oven) of a 5200W wall oven.

2 lines of text for electrical.
120/240 VAC. 60HZ. 5.2KW. 3 WIRE
120/208 VAC. 60HZ. 3.95KW. 3 WIRE

Current wires coming out of the oven are 3 at 12 AWG black, red, green, and a
16 AWG white. I am not sure if they are original to the oven or not.
I couldn't find the manual online. I acquired this oven used.

What a farce. In the UK, ovens (and everything else) only takes 240 volts. No messing about with extra wires and dual breakers.

--
ADULT: A person who has stopped growing at both ends and is now growing in the middle.

trader_4
Tue, 20
Sep 2016 23:29:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it exists
somewhere in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common. Apparently Amana
thinks so too, they spec the oven at 240V.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/59bf3j

How long have you been an electrician? Just curious, mind you.



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Very odd then that it says 5200W at 240V. It would also be odd
for a new oven to use just 14 amps. They don't typically wire them up
with 40A circuits for nothing. It would take a very long time to
wait for your dinner. Do you like to wait?

I just bought a wall oven and the ones I looked at were listed for a
20a circuit. I ended up with a GE 27" convection oven that spec's out
at 3.4kw.
I think you will find the 40a circuits are for ranges tho. Wall ovens
and cooktops are 20a or 30a.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:38:15 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue, 20
Sep 2016 23:29:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it exists
somewhere in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common. Apparently Amana
thinks so too, they spec the oven at 240V.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/59bf3j


What exactly is that ridiculous link supposed to prove? It starts off with:

Dear Cecil:

"How come the U.S. is practically the only country in the world where household electricity is 110 volts instead of 220 volts?"


Obviously they are very confused because the common residential voltages
here are 120/240, not 110. Again, 110/220 may exist somewhere in the US
today, but I've never seen it. Have you? Where?

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 2:05:38 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Very odd then that it says 5200W at 240V. It would also be odd
for a new oven to use just 14 amps. They don't typically wire them up
with 40A circuits for nothing. It would take a very long time to
wait for your dinner. Do you like to wait?

I just bought a wall oven and the ones I looked at were listed for a
20a circuit. I ended up with a GE 27" convection oven that spec's out
at 3.4kw.
I think you will find the 40a circuits are for ranges tho. Wall ovens
and cooktops are 20a or 30a.

I was thinking from what I have hear. The house originally had a
Jenn-Air combo oven and microwave wall unit. I recently replaced it
with a Kitchenaid double 30" unit. Both of those were 40A, which
was fortunate so I didn't have to rewire. I can see a single oven
would use less, IDK what the OP has, but he is saying that in the
manual it says a 40A circuit, while those other numbers he posted
would seem to show 22A, so IDK.

replying to trader_4, Tony944 wrote:
Well I am not surprise that you never seen 220, however there are many places
that power is must likely to be around 208 instead of 240 or 220. in most
metropolitan area you are lucky to have even 208 I have been in places with
power was low as 195 and customer complain why equipment is not working right
"surprise".

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...en-903979-.htm

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 04:14:01 +0000, Tony944
wrote:

Well I am not surprise that you never seen 220, however there are many places
that power is must likely to be around 208 instead of 240 or 220. in most
metropolitan area you are lucky to have even 208 I have been in places with
power was low as 195 and customer complain why equipment is not working right
"surprise".

"In metropolitan areas" (apartments etc) you may actually be looking
at 2 legs of a 120/208 3p service

If you have less than 216v (240 minus 10%) at your meter on a 120/240
1p service you should be calling the Public Utilities Commission or
whomever regulates your PoCo. (if the power company will not do
anything about it when you tell them)

trader_4
Wed, 21
Sep 2016 23:53:14 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:38:15 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
20 Sep 2016 23:29:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it
exists somewhere in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common.
Apparently Amana thinks so too, they spec the oven at 240V.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/59bf3j


What exactly is that ridiculous link supposed to prove? It starts
off with:

It doesn't prove anything. Only that 120volt wasn't always the norm.
Long before my time on this planet, though. You shouldn't take
everything I write so personally...



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

In article ,
says...

trader_4
Wed, 21
Sep 2016 23:53:14 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:38:15 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
20 Sep 2016 23:29:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it
exists somewhere in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common.
Apparently Amana thinks so too, they spec the oven at 240V.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/59bf3j


What exactly is that ridiculous link supposed to prove? It starts
off with:

It doesn't prove anything. Only that 120volt wasn't always the norm.
Long before my time on this planet, though. You shouldn't take
everything I write so personally...


Years ago , around 1950 , many items were listed as operating on 110 or
220 volts. My dad repaired appliances during that era and often said
110 and 220. If I don't watch it,I will say the same thing even though
most household items are listed as 120 and 240 volts. At one time near
the middle 1950's items were rated for 115 volts. The 'standard' home
voltage seems to have gone from 110 to 115 to 120 volts over the last 70
years.

The 208 voltage is from the way single phase power is taken from a 3
phase circuit. I am not sure what those voltages have done over the
years. I worked as an electrician for a large company and seldom worked
on anything that operated on 208 volts. Only had one or two electrical
panels with that and 120 volts in it. Everything else was 120/240 volt
rated for the office areas. Most of the work I did was with the 480
volt 3 phase circuits or the 277 volts you get off that for the lights.


At one time you had to specify if you wanted the 220/240 volt operation
or the 208 lower voltage. Probably depends on what area of the country
you are in.

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 5:45:02 AM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Wed, 21
Sep 2016 23:53:14 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:38:15 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Tue,
20 Sep 2016 23:29:11 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I've never seen a 220V power source, only 240V. Maybe it
exists somewhere in the USA, but AFAIK, it's not common.
Apparently Amana thinks so too, they spec the oven at 240V.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/59bf3j


What exactly is that ridiculous link supposed to prove? It starts
off with:

It doesn't prove anything. Only that 120volt wasn't always the norm.

Who said it was? We aren't talking about history here, only what's in
use today with the OP's oven.



Long before my time on this planet, though. You shouldn't take
everything I write so personally...


I guess you think it's better to let people imply that 220V is a standard
today in the USA, throw that into the mix of this oven, etc. Nothing
personal, just that I think facts matter.

You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day variation with load.

That's an RMS value, the peak is around 170.

Similarly when I worked in a factory the voltage was 440, 460, or 480, depending on who was talking, but it was all the same jolts.

TimR expressed precisely :
You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

Yes, but one of those would be wrong.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day
variation with load.

No "brownouts" then? Of course, we're not really talking about actual
voltages here, but the nomenclature instead.

That's an RMS value, the peak is around 170.

Yes, but it is best to stick to one measure throughout a discussion.

Similarly when I worked in a factory the voltage was 440, 460, or 480,
depending on who was talking, but it was all the same jolts.

As long as everyone understands each other, then there is no harm. When
using figures like that in engineering, everyone should use the
'correct' voltage in their computations.

On 09/22/2016 10:04 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ralph Mowery laid this down on his screen :
In article ,
says...
....

Years ago , around 1950 , many items were listed as operating on 110
or 220 volts. My dad repaired appliances during that era and often
said 110 and 220. If I don't watch it,I will say the same thing even
though most household items are listed as 120 and 240 volts. At one
time near the middle 1950's items were rated for 115 volts. The
'standard' home voltage seems to have gone from 110 to 115 to 120
volts over the last 70 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_...tandardisation

"Historically 110 V, 115 V and 117 V have been used at different times
and places in North America. Mains power is sometimes spoken of as 110
V; however, 120 V is the nominal voltage."

....

US spec's are given in ANSI C84.1-2011; you may be surprised to lean
that first standardized effort by AIEE occurred as far back as 1898 the
first joint meetings were held with the first accepted for publication
in June, 1899. Revisions to it occurred in 1902, 1905 and 1911. The AC
low voltage ratings at that time were established as 110,220,440 and 550 V.

I don't have the full history between then and the initial C84.1
adoption in (I believe) 1956 but as the Wikipedia article notes, there
were intermediary periods of voltages between 110 and the current 120.
Some history-type papers I've seen had data that by the late 1940s
something like 90% of produced light bulbs were rated for 120V.

A link to the C84.1 Table 1
--http://www.powerqualityworld.com/2011/04/ansi-c84-1-voltage-ratings-60-hertz.html

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 3:33:27 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day variation with load.

That's an RMS value, the peak is around 170.

Similarly when I worked in a factory the voltage was 440, 460, or 480, depending on who was talking, but it was all the same jolts.

People can call it whatever they want, but that isn't how the power
industry operates and it just adds to the confusion. AFAIK, they
have a voltage spec that they try to deliver and in all the places
I've been around the USA, that's 120V, not 110. Apparently Ammana,
the manufacturer of the oven in question agrees, because you'll see
that they spec it at 240V, not 220V. Which is why I asked where
anyone has seen 110V today as the norm in the USA?

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 4:50:44 PM UTC-4, FromTheRafters wrote:
TimR expressed precisely :
You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

Yes, but one of those would be wrong.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day
variation with load.

No "brownouts" then? Of course, we're not really talking about actual
voltages here, but the nomenclature instead.


Or how about it hasn't varied from what? 110? or 120? Here it's
120V at the panel, with minor variation.

On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:

People can call it whatever they want, but that isn't how the power
industry operates and it just adds to the confusion. AFAIK, they
have a voltage spec that they try to deliver and in all the places
I've been around the USA, that's 120V, not 110. Apparently Ammana,
the manufacturer of the oven in question agrees, because you'll see
that they spec it at 240V, not 220V. Which is why I asked where
anyone has seen 110V today as the norm in the USA?


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:

People can call it whatever they want, but that isn't how the power
industry operates and it just adds to the confusion. AFAIK, they
have a voltage spec that they try to deliver and in all the places
I've been around the USA, that's 120V, not 110. Apparently Ammana,
the manufacturer of the oven in question agrees, because you'll see
that they spec it at 240V, not 220V. Which is why I asked where
anyone has seen 110V today as the norm in the USA?


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

That's all we're talking about, nominal voltage that the power company
supplies today for the OP's oven and similar. Which again is why I
asked if anyone has seen 110V in the USA and that's today, not in 1942.
In my world it's 120/240V. And it does make a difference. If I saw
110V at my panel, I'd know something isn't right.

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:

People can call it whatever they want, but that isn't how the power
industry operates and it just adds to the confusion. AFAIK, they
have a voltage spec that they try to deliver and in all the places
I've been around the USA, that's 120V, not 110. Apparently Ammana,
the manufacturer of the oven in question agrees, because you'll see
that they spec it at 240V, not 220V. Which is why I asked where
anyone has seen 110V today as the norm in the USA?


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

Or to put it another way, if we went to the panel in the homes of
the people who are talking about 110/220, would we measure close
to that or would we really see 120/240? I'm guessing the latter.

dpb presented the following explanation :
On 09/22/2016 10:04 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:
Ralph Mowery laid this down on his screen :
In article ,
says...
...

Years ago , around 1950 , many items were listed as operating on 110
or 220 volts. My dad repaired appliances during that era and often
said 110 and 220. If I don't watch it,I will say the same thing even
though most household items are listed as 120 and 240 volts. At one
time near the middle 1950's items were rated for 115 volts. The
'standard' home voltage seems to have gone from 110 to 115 to 120
volts over the last 70 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_...tandardisation

"Historically 110 V, 115 V and 117 V have been used at different times
and places in North America. Mains power is sometimes spoken of as 110
V; however, 120 V is the nominal voltage."

...

US spec's are given in ANSI C84.1-2011; you may be surprised to lean that
first standardized effort by AIEE occurred as far back as 1898 the first
joint meetings were held with the first accepted for publication in June,
1899. Revisions to it occurred in 1902, 1905 and 1911. The AC low voltage
ratings at that time were established as 110,220,440 and 550 V.

I showed an old phonograph motor to my Electricity & Electronics
instructor back in 1970. It had a clear plastic strap around it with
110VAC in black stamped on it. He told me it was about twenty years old
because back in 1950 or so 110 volts was the norm.

I don't have the full history between then and the initial C84.1 adoption in
(I believe) 1956 but as the Wikipedia article notes, there were intermediary
periods of voltages between 110 and the current 120. Some history-type papers
I've seen had data that by the late 1940s something like 90% of produced
light bulbs were rated for 120V.

That sounds about right.

A link to the C84.1 Table 1
--http://www.powerqualityworld.com/2011/04/ansi-c84-1-voltage-ratings-60-hertz.html

On 9/22/2016 8:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:

People can call it whatever they want, but that isn't how the power
industry operates and it just adds to the confusion. AFAIK, they
have a voltage spec that they try to deliver and in all the places
I've been around the USA, that's 120V, not 110. Apparently Ammana,
the manufacturer of the oven in question agrees, because you'll see
that they spec it at 240V, not 220V. Which is why I asked where
anyone has seen 110V today as the norm in the USA?


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

Or to put it another way, if we went to the panel in the homes of
the people who are talking about 110/220, would we measure close
to that or would we really see 120/240? I'm guessing the latter.


That would be my guess. Of course you may see a minor variation of a
volt or two. I've seen 135 at my house but after reporting it, power
company corrected it.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 17:02:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Or to put it another way, if we went to the panel in the homes of
the people who are talking about 110/220, would we measure close
to that or would we really see 120/240? I'm guessing the latter.

If you came to my house it would be 123.5 - 123.9

trader_4
Thu, 22
Sep 2016 14:37:00 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I guess you think it's better to let people imply that 220V is a
standard today in the USA, throw that into the mix of this oven,
etc. Nothing personal, just that I think facts matter.

You shouldn't make broad assumptions like that.




--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

Or to put it another way, if we went to the panel in the homes of
the people who are talking about 110/220, would we measure close
to that or would we really see 120/240? I'm guessing the latter.

This discussion is almost like trying to call a 2x4 whatever it is now.
Over the years the 2x4 has gotten smaller as the time passes by. The
voltage has gotten higher. If you were to go to a lumber yard would you
ask for a 2x4 or maybe something like a 1 3/4 x 3 1/2 or whatever they
are now ?

I have a voltmeter on one of the outlets at my house that stays on all
the time. It has been calibrated with instruments that were at one time
set to the NIST. It has ranged from a low of 118 to a high of 124 at
the times I have seen it. Most of the time it is around 121 to 123
volts.

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 11:14:28 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:05:18 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2016 6:02 PM, trader_4 wrote:


Recently? I recall 110V at our house in Philadelphia, but that was 60
years ago. Going back to Westinghouse and his AC transformers I did
read they were 110V output. With voltage drops at distances it could be
low and thus, was boosted to a nominal 120V.

I am neither an electrical historian or engineer and I'm not going to
search for cites. Nominal voltage today is 120 but can be lower with
distance.

Or to put it another way, if we went to the panel in the homes of
the people who are talking about 110/220, would we measure close
to that or would we really see 120/240? I'm guessing the latter.

This discussion is almost like trying to call a 2x4 whatever it is now.
Over the years the 2x4 has gotten smaller as the time passes by. The
voltage has gotten higher. If you were to go to a lumber yard would you
ask for a 2x4 or maybe something like a 1 3/4 x 3 1/2 or whatever they
are now ?


Not even close to the same. 2x4's are called out as that in construction
specs, though the actual dimensions are less. That is what they are referred to by standards, by sellers, by buyers, by people in the trade,
who call them 2x4s but deliver the spec'd dimensions. You just saw
the specs for the oven in this thread. It says 240V, not 220. Same with
my oven when I put it in. The applicances one typically buys are spec'd
at 120V, not 110V. And 120V is what the power company delivers, again
to a spec. In other words the industry is using 240/120, mostly
consistently and that is what you get when you measure at the panel,
at least here. So, I don't see the need for the 110/220 confusion,
it's just wrong.




I have a voltmeter on one of the outlets at my house that stays on all
the time. It has been calibrated with instruments that were at one time
set to the NIST. It has ranged from a low of 118 to a high of 124 at
the times I have seen it. Most of the time it is around 121 to 123
volts.

Exactly. It's not in the neighborhood of 110V, because it's 120V power.

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 8:56:34 PM UTC-4, Diesel wrote:
trader_4
Thu, 22
Sep 2016 14:37:00 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

I guess you think it's better to let people imply that 220V is a
standard today in the USA, throw that into the mix of this oven,
etc. Nothing personal, just that I think facts matter.

You shouldn't make broad assumptions like that.



Well what should one assume, when it's a 240V oven being connected
to a 240V service and you start talking about 220V? Why confuse
people who don't even know how to hook up their oven, by using
a voltage convention that is wrong and does not exist?

On 09/22/2016 02:33 PM, TimR wrote:
You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day variation with load.

That's an RMS value, the peak is around 170.

IIRC, converting RMS to peak, you multiply by the square root of 2 (I
don't know why it's THAT). 120 * SQR(2) = 169.7056275, which most people
would call 170. I needed to know that recently when selecting a diode
(1N4003) for making a light half brightness.


Similarly when I worked in a factory the voltage was 440, 460, or 480, depending on who was talking, but it was all the same jolts.


I recently was talking to an older friend who was talking about a
submersible well pump that uses 220. I've always said 240 for that.
Also, I have measured the voltage here, and have almost exactly 120 and 240.

BTW, when doing the above math I remember by first class in
trigonometry. Most of the time, the teacher was walking around showing
people what buttons to press on their calculators. Then they would be
asked for something like "the SIN of 80" and some student would read all
8 or more digits of the answer. There was almost nothing said about what
trigonometry IS or what it could be used for.

--
93 days until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00
AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Most of it is crap, but in every pile of crap is a gem of stupidity
that will have you on the floor in laughter."
(Preacher)]

In article , lid says...



BTW, when doing the above math I remember by first class in
trigonometry. Most of the time, the teacher was walking around showing
people what buttons to press on their calculators. Then they would be
asked for something like "the SIN of 80" and some student would read all
8 or more digits of the answer. There was almost nothing said about what
trigonometry IS or what it could be used for.

When I took trig we did not have to worry about the buttons to push. It
was either a slide rule or look them up in the CRC book.

For most electrical/electronic work 3 digits raised to whatever power of
10 was needed was about all that was ever needed. Most of the
components were only 10 % few were 5 % and very few 1 % except for the
test gear.

On 09/23/2016 1:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:
....

... So, I don't see the need for the 110/220 confusion,
it's just wrong.

Like many things, it (110V referral, that is) hangs around because at
one time it _was_ the standard and not all the people who grew up with
it died off at the time it was changed and, besides, they had kids and
those kids learned to call it what their folks did, and that continues
to this day...what the actual is isn't really the issue or the cause
either one; it's simply historical precedent.

Mark Lloyd was thinking very hard :
On 09/22/2016 02:33 PM, TimR wrote:
You can call it 110 or 120 interchangeably.

It hasn't actually varied in my lifetime, other than the normal day to day
variation with load.

That's an RMS value, the peak is around 170.

IIRC, converting RMS to peak, you multiply by the square root of 2 (I don't
know why it's THAT). 120 * SQR(2) = 169.7056275, which most people would call
170. I needed to know that recently when selecting a diode (1N4003) for
making a light half brightness.


Similarly when I worked in a factory the voltage was 440, 460, or 480,
depending on who was talking, but it was all the same jolts.


I recently was talking to an older friend who was talking about a submersible
well pump that uses 220. I've always said 240 for that. Also, I have measured
the voltage here, and have almost exactly 120 and 240.

BTW, when doing the above math I remember by first class in trigonometry.
Most of the time, the teacher was walking around showing people what buttons
to press on their calculators. Then they would be asked for something like
"the SIN of 80" and some student would read all 8 or more digits of the
answer. There was almost nothing said about what trigonometry IS or what it
could be used for.

That is a major problem with the way mathematics is taught. Not only
does it lead to incomplete understanding of it, it hides the usefulness
of it.

When I was in school we weren't allowed to use calculators. One teacher
I had would allow us to use a slide-rule if we knew how to work one.