Hello there

I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg

My siding is wood exactly as the same picture above. In Canada, is not allowed to paint using oil-based paint! So I painted the outside siding using waterbased oil.

But for the porch/fence/trims, I need to use oil-based because it is already painted using oil based.

I contacted Benjamin more and they replied with the following
++++
We no long manufacture an oil based paint in Canada or the states due to VOC laws. We still do have oil primers if you are painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content and then can be followed up with an acrylic solid stain. The only other option is if you would like to use a Semi-Solid, which is not an opaque stain, as we still manufacture one. It is called Arborcoat Semi-Solid and the product number is K329
++++

I did not understand what they wanted to tell me. I asked for clarification but I have not received anything from them yet. Coudl you please help me to understand what they are saying? Here is my questions to them/you:

1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?
2) They said that Arcylic solid stain should follow the Oil Primer. What is Arcylic Solid state? is it oil-based or water-based paint?
3) About Arborcoat Semi-Solid, is it oil-based?

Would appreciate any help. Thanks a lot.

On 08/13/2016 4:41 PM, leza wang wrote:
....

1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No. Primers are just that, and undercoating to take the final topcoat.
Generally, no, but for very dark colors they generally can be tinted.
See the product datasheets for the suggested products to see what they
say about this particular one.

2) They said that Arcylic solid stain should follow the Oil Primer.
What is Arcylic Solid state? is it oil-based or water-based paint?

Neither, it's a stain, not a paint, but with enough pigment/solids to
provide a solid-looking coating similar (but not completely like) to the
appearance of paint. It is water-based, the "acrylic" is a polymerized
fiber from acrylonitrile (acrylic acid). Similar to the acrylic
artists' paints you've heard of for years, undoubtedly.

3) About Arborcoat Semi-Solid, is it oil-based?

Not if they can sell it in CA, it isn't.

I suggest going to the corporate website and read all about the various
products and then ask a local paint contractor or paint store your
questions.

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"leza wang" wrote


I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like
this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg


The photo looks like plastic. Is that T-111 siding?
and the window casing is really wood?

First, whether you use acrylic or oil paint you should
use oil-base primer. Use the kind with linseed
oil, not fast-drying. Linseed oil primer is the only
kind that really soaks in and holds up. The BM type
should say "Moorewhite" somewhere on the label.
That's what it used to be called.

Use it to spot-prime, not as a finish coat. Primer
will oxidize and get powdery after a few months
if it doesn't get a topcoat. It's meant to soak in
and seal, not protect.

In most cases it's now OK to paint acrylic paint
over oil. It's much better stuff than it used to
be. You can also use oil paint, but it gets tricky. The
problem is not so much that you can't get it, but
that it might not be so great. BM no longer makes
good house paint in oil. And they no longer make
exterior high gloss Impervo. What they do have is
"DTM". Direct-to-metal. They're required to say
it's only for metal. I've used it a few times. It's not
as thick and tough as the old house paint, but it
seems to hold up. Sherwin Williams also makes
exterior oil that's pretty good. It has a sort of
maroon label. I don't remember the name. Both are
only allowed in quarts in the US.

In general I'd go with SW rather than BM. The
two companies took different approaches to EPA
regulations. SW still sells good oil paint in quarts
and discontinued gallons where they couldn't
conform. BM has tried to keep their market share
by doing whatever would work. Their products
can no longer be trusted.

So.... linseed oil primer. Then acrylic paint or
quarts of oil. Depending on the situation, you
might also be able to use acrylic stain or solid
oil stain. Acrylic stain is basically non-enamel
paint. It wears off rather than peeling. That
might be a better solution if you don't mind a
dull sheen. Solid oil stain is very hard to get
these days. Probably impossible in Canada.
Apparently they just can't make a conforming
version of it.

So the advice from BM may be the best:
Linseed oil primer followed by acrylic solid
stain. (Unless you really want the gloss of
paint.) Give the primer a couple of days to dry.
The acrylic stain is water-base, yes. Except
for the DTM, BM no longer has anything in
exterior solid oil. (Maybe urethane deck paint,
but you don't want that.)

If it were me I'd try to find solid oil stain.
Failing that, I'd use the acrylic stain on the body
but use DTM for any horizontal trim surfaces.
Acrylic just doesn't hold up to water.

Don't be confused by "stain". None of it is
actually stain. It's just paint without an enamel
film, so that it generally doesn't peel. In the 80's
they came out with solid oil "stain" to replace oil
paint, in order to save on scraping labor. But it
was really just film-less paint. They called it stain
to differentiate from paints that dry to a hard film.
Later they came up with acrylic (water-base) stain.
Again, it's really solid color paint, but more like
whitewash than enamel. It wears off so that you
can usually recoat it with little or no scraping.

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:
Hello there

I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg

My siding is wood exactly as the same picture above. In Canada, is not allowed to paint using oil-based paint! So I painted the outside siding using waterbased oil.

But for the porch/fence/trims, I need to use oil-based because it is already painted using oil based.

I contacted Benjamin more and they replied with the following
++++
We no long manufacture an oil based paint in Canada or the states due to VOC laws. We still do have oil primers if you are painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content and then can be followed up with an acrylic solid stain. The only other option is if you would like to use a Semi-Solid, which is not an opaque stain, as we still manufacture one. It is called Arborcoat Semi-Solid and the product number is K329
++++

I did not understand what they wanted to tell me. I asked for clarification but I have not received anything from them yet. Coudl you please help me to understand what they are saying? Here is my questions to them/you:

1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc. Primer is usually white. You follow it with
a paint or solid stain.


2) They said that Arcylic solid stain should follow the Oil Primer. What is Arcylic Solid state? is it oil-based or water-based paint?
3) About Arborcoat Semi-Solid, is it oil-based?

Would appreciate any help. Thanks a lot.

Acrylic solid stain is their water based product for your application.
Read the
directions and I'm sure you'll find it can be applied over the old
oil based paint that is there, as long as the old paint is sound and
any areas that need to be scraped are dealt with, etc. Solid stain
looks like what;s in your pic, it completely covers and hides, very
similar to paint except it doesn't have quite as hard a film surface
and in my experience doesn't peel.

Arborcoat Semi-solid is also water based, it's a step back from solid,
it lets some of the wood features show through. But on siding like
you're showing, or a fence, you don't have features that you want to
show. Next would be semi-transparent, which lets even more of the
wood feature show, and then transparent. So solid is like paint,
transparent is at the other extreme, and lets all the wood show
through.

Remember that when painting, the prep work is the most important part.
The wood should be power washed, but make sure you don't use too much
pressure and lift the grain of the wood.

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:39:19 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
"leza wang" wrote


I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like
this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg


The photo looks like plastic. Is that T-111 siding?
and the window casing is really wood?


If I'm not mistaken it's LP Smart Siding/Trim or a similar engineered
product.

http://lpcorp.com/products/siding/lp...e-trim-siding/

I have a shed built from the product. It comes primed and ready to finish
paint. It's OSB with one face finished to look like many different sidings,
including T-111, or in the case of trim, "rough cedar" as just one example.

http://www.lpsmartside.com/products/trimfascia/

It's actually nice stuff to work with and so far my shed has held up nicely. It's going on 10 years old and there's no sign of paint failure, insect issues,
rot, or anything of that nature.

"DerbyDad03" wrote

| If I'm not mistaken it's LP Smart Siding/Trim or a similar engineered
| product.
|
| http://lpcorp.com/products/siding/lp...e-trim-siding/
|
| I have a shed built from the product. It comes primed and ready to finish
| paint. It's OSB with one face finished to look like many different
sidings,
| including T-111, or in the case of trim, "rough cedar" as just one
example.
|
| http://www.lpsmartside.com/products/trimfascia/
|
| It's actually nice stuff to work with and so far my shed has held up
nicely. It's going on 10 years old and there's no sign of paint failure,
insect issues,
| rot, or anything of that nature.

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware of such a product.
OSB seems to be what I've always called flakeboard.
Not something I'd want as siding. I'm surprised it holds up
to weather.

I always find it odd that they make those fake wood
products so rough. Like plastic doors and plastic planks.
They'd be OK if they were smooth, but instead the
companies overcompensate, making them look like
sandblasted wood in order to not look like plastic.
Which makes them look like plastic.

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:


1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc.

Absolutely not true.

Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 8:01:54 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote

| If I'm not mistaken it's LP Smart Siding/Trim or a similar engineered
| product.
|
| http://lpcorp.com/products/siding/lp...e-trim-siding/
|
| I have a shed built from the product. It comes primed and ready to finish
| paint. It's OSB with one face finished to look like many different
sidings,
| including T-111, or in the case of trim, "rough cedar" as just one
example.
|
| http://www.lpsmartside.com/products/trimfascia/
|
| It's actually nice stuff to work with and so far my shed has held up
nicely. It's going on 10 years old and there's no sign of paint failure,
insect issues,
| rot, or anything of that nature.

Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware of such a product.
OSB seems to be what I've always called flakeboard.
Not something I'd want as siding. I'm surprised it holds up
to weather.


It's not the OSB of our youth. It's mixed with waxes, resins, zinc borate,
etc. Extremely resistant to weather and insects.

http://lpcorp.com/media/1136/lp-smar...-english-1.pdf

http://lpcorp.com/media/3301/fiber-h...nfographic.jpg

I always find it odd that they make those fake wood
products so rough. Like plastic doors and plastic planks.
They'd be OK if they were smooth, but instead the
companies overcompensate, making them look like
sandblasted wood in order to not look like plastic.
Which makes them look like plastic.

It definitely does not look like plastic is real life. It's too dark
to take a picture of my shed right now, but I assure that there is no
plastic look to it.

Mayayana wrote:

"leza wang" wrote


I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like
this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg


The photo looks like plastic. Is that T-111 siding?
and the window casing is really wood?

Looks to me like factory primed wood product. In this case, no need to
prime it, just wash it off to remove dust and dirt. Follow up with 1-2
coats of a solid stain (water based). This will give you a flat finish
though. If you want a shine maybe on the trim, use a low luster water
based paint.

Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams both make good products - you can
safely price-shop between the two.

Also...if you buy stain, be sure to buy solid stain... That wood is
already solid so stupid to use a semi-transparent stain on it.

If you ever have raw wood to prime and paint, best to use an oil-primer
(and not a quick dry one), then finish with 2 coats of a water-based
paint.

Been doing this for 43 years now and looking for the finish line. ;-D

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
Mayayana wrote:

"leza wang" wrote


I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like
this

http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-co...nd-Windows.jpg


The photo looks like plastic. Is that T-111 siding?
and the window casing is really wood?

Looks to me like factory primed wood product. In this case, no need to
prime it, just wash it off to remove dust and dirt. Follow up with 1-2
coats of a solid stain (water based). This will give you a flat finish
though. If you want a shine maybe on the trim, use a low luster water
based paint.


From her post, she gave us a pic of similar product to see what it
looks like, but she clearly says that hers has already been painted
with oil base paint. She's looking to go over top of that, so I don't
understand the focus on bare wood, primer, etc. All she needs is
BM Arborcoat solid stain, with primer for any bare spots.

On 08/13/2016 6:07 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I suggest going to the corporate website and read all about the various
products and then ask a local paint contractor or paint store your
questions.

OK, we don't have a BM dealer in town so not familiar w/ their current
product offerings....here's the link

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-your-home/paint-products/benjamin-moore-arborcoat-exterior-stain

It'll lead you to links to the full product info plus the different
options within the product line.

I do note that they still list a line of "classic" oil-based products;
didn't try to find where they're available if you were to want to
smuggle some in... PS. I did find one home center web site in
Illinois that has the oil-based product listed...was somewhat surprised
to find that. Of course, they wouldn't be able to ship it you you in
Canada... http://www.foxhomecenter.com/paint/ben_moore_stain.htm

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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:00:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:


1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc.

Absolutely not true.

Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.

Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

On 08/13/2016 03:41 PM, leza wang wrote:
But for the porch/fence/trims, I need to use oil-based because it is already painted using oil based.

Boat paint? Tractor/farm implement paint?
Shirley the "authorities" wouldn't expect latex crap to hold up in those applications?

On 08/14/2016 8:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....


Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

Actually the product description says

"Solid Waterborne Stain
Features :

Ideal for pressure-treated lumber, cedar and redwood
Excellent color retention and durability
Creates a smooth finish
Self-priming on most surfaces
..."

The key word there is "most"; it's not a blank "No primer needed no
matter what" statement at all.

Elsewhere it has the comment regarding primer being a desirable for
previously painted surfaces that may have become chalky. Whether the
particular job does/does not need priming is dependent upon more
information than we've got data to answer here...

It appears to me the BM response was predicated on the assumption of
painting new raw wood, _NOT_ specifically addressing the actual
situation of repainting. Hence the suggestion to use a stain which is
just downright silly over paint, imo.

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On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 10:34:50 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 08/14/2016 8:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
...


Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

Actually the product description says

"Solid Waterborne Stain
Features :

Ideal for pressure-treated lumber, cedar and redwood
Excellent color retention and durability
Creates a smooth finish
Self-priming on most surfaces
..."

The key word there is "most"; it's not a blank "No primer needed no
matter what" statement at all.


I wasn't referring to the product description, I was referring to the
application instructions that are on the can. If they require a primer
to put it over oil based product, that's where they would say so.
This isn't an unusual thing, it's fairly common and it would be pretty
dumb for BM to not state it, if it's required, will cause failure, etc.



Elsewhere it has the comment regarding primer being a desirable for
previously painted surfaces that may have become chalky. Whether the
particular job does/does not need priming is dependent upon more
information than we've got data to answer here...

I would agree with that, but it wasn't me that said that primer is
a must when going over oil based. If it's typical, weathered paint
that is otherwise sound, then you can go over it with latex. If it's
chalky or has other problems, then that is an issue with any kind of
base.



It appears to me the BM response was predicated on the assumption of
painting new raw wood, _NOT_ specifically addressing the actual
situation of repainting. Hence the suggestion to use a stain which is
just downright silly over paint, imo.


How many paint cans have you seen of solid stain topcoat product
or similar, where in the application instructions they only address
going over bare wood? The vast majority of the product is used
going over previously painted surfaces and again, in the application
instructions BM doesn't have any restriction on using it over existing
oil based paint.

On 08/14/2016 9:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:
....

How many paint cans have you seen of solid stain topcoat product
or similar, where in the application instructions they only address
going over bare wood? The vast majority of the product is used
going over previously painted surfaces and again, in the application
instructions BM doesn't have any restriction on using it over existing
oil based paint.

Actually, I've _never_ looked specifically at a can of solid stain
topcoat as never have (and never will) had any use for the product.

But, I'll still bet somewhere in the instructions for each and every
topcoat product there's the caveat that covers the issue regarding the
specifics on prep and existing surfaces even if it's in the (maybe very)
fine print.

I'm certain they didn't put the phrase "most surfaces" in the
description just to clutter up and take up space...

The craze of "self-priming" paint is a relatively new phenomenon; it'll
be interesting to see if it actually lasts. It certainly saves time for
the professional which is the driving force; I think it's too early to
tell whether the product in general raises more issues than the
convenience it provides.

$0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ...

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"dpb" wrote

| I do note that they still list a line of "classic" oil-based products;

They no longer offer solid versions of their oil
stains, which seems to be what the OP wants.
Their "semi-solid" is just a glorified semi-transparent.
It's can't be made to fully cover in 2 coats. Worse,
they dropped out a lot of the drier in order to meet
EPA specs. Their oil-base stains can now take days,
even in Summer heat, to dry. With two coats that
problem is amplified.

The first time I discovered that was with a sunny
roof deck. The customer walked out on the deck the
next morning and left bare foot marks! The following
morning it still wasn't dry. The big problem with BM
is that they make these changes without changing
the product labeling.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 9:30:48 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:00:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:


1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc.

Absolutely not true.

Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.

Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

I was responding to nothing more than these statements:

"...and you only use primer on bare wood"

and

"You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded bare"

Sitting way out here on the ole interweb that certainly sounds like you are
discussing the use of primer in general, not related to any specific product.
Taken as written, they are not true.

How else could someone take "and you only use primer on bare wood"?

On 08/14/2016 10:18 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"dpb" wrote

| I do note that they still list a line of "classic" oil-based products;

They no longer offer solid versions of their oil
stains, which seems to be what the OP wants.
....

OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I
think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered
a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a
stain rather than a paint.

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"dpb" wrote

| OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I
| think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered
| a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a
| stain rather than a paint.
|

Yes, but stain here would be solid stain.
The existing is opaque paint. It wouldn't
make sense to go over that with semi-
transparent anything.

BM did answer the question. Their suggestion
for replacing oil paint is to use acrylic solid stain,
because they no longer offer oil-base house paint.
(I don't know why they didn't suggest acrylic
gloss paint.)

It gets confusing because "stain" is a misleading
term for an opaque product. I'm just pointing out
that while BM makes a solid, opaque, acrylic stain,
they no longer make any exterior oil finish that's
opaque. (Save for the DTM quarts.) So there is no
oil option for the OP, other than expensive quarts
of DTM paint. If you look again at the page you
linked you'll see that the only solid color is acrylic.
Oil only comes in semi-transparent and semi-solid.

This is something I've become keenly aware of
because I prefer soild oil siding stain for most
exterior uses, and would like to be still using oil
base house paint. Newer products just are not
as good. But no one except Cabot, as far as I know,
now has solid oil deck or siding stain. (And Cabot's
is hard to find.)

I actually have most of a gallon, still, of the old
BM house paint, with the sort of dark teal label. I
use it for things like my window boxes, where I
really need paint that won't rot out in one year
with exposure to weather.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
"dpb" wrote

| OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I
| think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered
| a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a
| stain rather than a paint.
|

Yes, but stain here would be solid stain.
The existing is opaque paint. It wouldn't
make sense to go over that with semi-
transparent anything.

BM did answer the question. Their suggestion
for replacing oil paint is to use acrylic solid stain,
because they no longer offer oil-base house paint.
(I don't know why they didn't suggest acrylic
gloss paint.)

It's not clear to me that BM answered the question, it appears
they went off on the track of this being new wood and that the OP
wants oil stain. We don't even know what question was even put
to BM.




It gets confusing because "stain" is a misleading
term for an opaque product. I'm just pointing out
that while BM makes a solid, opaque, acrylic stain,
they no longer make any exterior oil finish that's
opaque. (Save for the DTM quarts.) So there is no
oil option for the OP, other than expensive quarts
of DTM paint. If you look again at the page you
linked you'll see that the only solid color is acrylic.
Oil only comes in semi-transparent and semi-solid.


She went down the oil path because she thinks she has to use
oil because the previous paint was oil based. AFAIK that's
not the case. The BM application instructions for their
Acrylic Arborcoat solid stain doesn;t have any restriciton
on the application instructions about putting over oil based
product that was used before. If you can't put it over oil
based, I'm sure it would be in the directions.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:25:10 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 9:30:48 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:00:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:


1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc.

Absolutely not true.

Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.

Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

I was responding to nothing more than these statements:

"...and you only use primer on bare wood"

and

"You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded bare"

Sitting way out here on the ole interweb that certainly sounds like you are
discussing the use of primer in general, not related to any specific product.
Taken as written, they are not true.

How else could someone take "and you only use primer on bare wood"?

Look, I was not addressing every possible painting project, only hers
with the specifics given. She's painting wood siding that has oil
based product on it now. What I said is true for what she is doing.

Conveniently forgetting that you posted this:
Absolutely not true.

"Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil"

She's painting wood siding that has oil based product on it now.
Read the instructions for the BM product. IT says nothing about
requiring a primer when using it over existing product. If BM had
the requirement you claimed exists FOR HER PROJECT, then it's very
strange that it's not on the application instructions. Is BM so
stupid they can't tell people how to apply their own product
correctly?

On 8/13/2016 2:41 PM, leza wang wrote:
Hello there

I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like this

Who cares wot you want?

On 08/14/2016 11:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
"dpb" wrote

| OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I
| think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered
| a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a
| stain rather than a paint.

Yes, but stain here would be solid stain.
The existing is opaque paint. It wouldn't
make sense to go over that with semi-
transparent anything.

BM did answer the question. Their suggestion
for replacing oil paint is to use acrylic solid stain,
because they no longer offer oil-base house paint.
(I don't know why they didn't suggest acrylic
gloss paint.)

It's not clear to me that BM answered the question, it appears
they went off on the track of this being new wood and that the OP
wants oil stain. We don't even know what question was even put
to BM.

Well, I guess they sorta' answered the question within a certain set of
boundaries although why one would ever suggest using stain over paint of
any variety puzzles me greatly.

In the existing BM product line they can sell in Canada (and, of course,
BM isn't going to recommend a non-BM product ) it's either an
exterior paint or stain of the water-based variety.

_IF_ they'd really addressed the question of what to use over a painted
surface, I'd think it wouldn't have include in the answer "if you are
painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content" (although I suppose
they could still be concerned about bleed-through even yet).

But why limit to stain, leaving out paint entirely???

Probably because the question was inadequately phrased would be the
primary guess, but we've not seen the original question, only the response.

Anyway, it's all speculation at best, but imo best option would likely
be to use a quality oil-based primer, then exterior latex enamel. If
the existing surface is still sound, then with good scrubbing and other
surface prep, _probably_ one of the "self-priming" products will be
adequate; we repainted the old church building a few years ago and they
used the S-W product; it seems to be holding up for the most part...

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"dpb" wrote

| Well, I guess they sorta' answered the question within a certain set of
| boundaries although why one would ever suggest using stain over paint of
| any variety puzzles me greatly.
|

Have you used solid stain? If not you may be
making a false assumption. It has nothing to do
with the normal idea of stain. It just refers to a
kind of non-enamel paint that wears away instead
of peeling. Solid oil stain became very popular from
the 80s until the EPA restrictions, for use on both
fresh wood and over old paint. With each paint job,
whatever has been scraped won't need to be scraped
next time. Eventually it's just all stain, with virtually
no scraping required.

Acrylic stains have improved, like acrylic paint.
They're *very* adhesive. (A nightmare to clean
up a spill after it's had a few seconds to dry.)
So they can go over oil paint. There's not much
choice, anyway, since there are really no oil paints
left for general housepainting. Like the oil-base
solid stain, it will wear rather than peeling, so
that any scraped paint won't need to be scraped
again.

The down side of solid stains is that they have a
dull finish and wear away. Our house has asbestos
siding. I use solid acrylic stain on that. I use solid
oil (Cabot's) stain on the deck and on the decorative
fence I built.

Solid oil stain is my preference for siding,
but I'm not sure whether I can still get it. One store
seems to stock it. Others don't. But that's also confused
by BM. BM pays paint stores not to display other
products. (Paint stores near me that sell Cabot's have
told me they're not allowed to put it on the shelves
due to an agreement with BM. I wrote to Cabot's
about that, but got no response.) So I'm not clear
about exactly what the status is with Cabot's solid
oil stains. And I'm unaware of any other company
still making solid oil stain.

I think it's a good idea to spot-prime with linseed
oil primer, but it's not necessary. The stain soaks
in somewhat and sticks well. In fact, the first time
I ever used acrylic solid stain was on a fence I built
of rough spruce. Very wet. I watered down the stain
and just soaked the fence with it. Worked well.

| But why limit to stain, leaving out paint entirely???
|

I think it was just their recommendation, though I
am surprised they didn't mention paint as an option.
Maybe because a fence was involved. As noted
elsewhere, solid stain has less manitenance in the
long run. The reason for paint would mainly be
elegance -- where one wants a smooth gloss finish.
But I would avoid paint on something like a fence.
It will peel. If I had to paint a fresh wood fence now
I'd go with thinned down linseed oil primer followed by
acrylic solid stain. Maybe not an ideal solution, but the
EPA has left us with few ideal solutions. The technology
just hasn't caught up with the restrictions. If I wanted
a snazzy gloss finish on a fence I wouldn't know what
to use. There are no longer any durable options.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 1:14:23 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 08/14/2016 11:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
"dpb" wrote

| OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I
| think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered
| a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a
| stain rather than a paint.

Yes, but stain here would be solid stain.
The existing is opaque paint. It wouldn't
make sense to go over that with semi-
transparent anything.

BM did answer the question. Their suggestion
for replacing oil paint is to use acrylic solid stain,
because they no longer offer oil-base house paint.
(I don't know why they didn't suggest acrylic
gloss paint.)

It's not clear to me that BM answered the question, it appears
they went off on the track of this being new wood and that the OP
wants oil stain. We don't even know what question was even put
to BM.

Well, I guess they sorta' answered the question within a certain set of
boundaries although why one would ever suggest using stain over paint of
any variety puzzles me greatly.


What makes you think they did? We don't know what she actually asked
and the response says nothing about going over existing anything.



In the existing BM product line they can sell in Canada (and, of course,
BM isn't going to recommend a non-BM product ) it's either an
exterior paint or stain of the water-based variety.

_IF_ they'd really addressed the question of what to use over a painted
surface, I'd think it wouldn't have include in the answer "if you are
painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content" (although I suppose
they could still be concerned about bleed-through even yet).


I agree, which is why I said it looks like they didn't address the
situation we're being presented with. I'm thinking she sent them
something along the lines of that she wants to use oil based stain,
so what to do.


But why limit to stain, leaving out paint entirely???

Probably because the question was inadequately phrased would be the
primary guess, but we've not seen the original question, only the response.


Exactly.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 12:45:28 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:25:10 AM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 9:30:48 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:00:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:


1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you
have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded
bare, repaired, etc.

Absolutely not true.

Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.

Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid
Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the
need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call
for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be
called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.

I was responding to nothing more than these statements:

"...and you only use primer on bare wood"

and

"You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded bare"

Sitting way out here on the ole interweb that certainly sounds like you are
discussing the use of primer in general, not related to any specific product.
Taken as written, they are not true.

How else could someone take "and you only use primer on bare wood"?

Look, I was not addressing every possible painting project, only hers
with the specifics given. She's painting wood siding that has oil
based product on it now. What I said is true for what she is doing.

No argument, except that there is no way for anyone to know that you were
only addressing her specific situation. As soon as you used the words "No, and"
as in "...and you only use primer on bare wood" you have made what appears to
be a general statement regarding primer, not a statement specific to her
situation. The first part ("No") answered her question; everything after the
comma could easily be taken as a general statement as to when primer is used.

If someone who nothing about painting read those words, the only conclusion
they could come to is exactly what you said: "and you only use primer on
bare wood."


Conveniently forgetting that you posted this:
Absolutely not true.

What would you conveniently forget something that is absolutely accurate?


"Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil"


She's painting wood siding that has oil based product on it now.
Read the instructions for the BM product. IT says nothing about
requiring a primer when using it over existing product. If BM had
the requirement you claimed exists FOR HER PROJECT, then it's very
strange that it's not on the application instructions. Is BM so
stupid they can't tell people how to apply their own product
correctly?

Once again, I'm not talking about her project, I'm talking about the words
you used. If you were addressing her specific project, then it should have
been worded so as not to appear as a general statement regarding the use of
primer.

1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color?

No, unless you have bare wood or areas that have been sanded down to bare
wood. Those areas should be primed.

On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 6:58:06 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Look, I was not addressing every possible painting project, only hers
with the specifics given. She's painting wood siding that has oil
based product on it now. What I said is true for what she is doing.

No argument, except that there is no way for anyone to know that you were
only addressing her specific situation. As soon as you used the words "No, and"
as in "...and you only use primer on bare wood" you have made what appears to
be a general statement regarding primer, not a statement specific to her
situation. The first part ("No") answered her question; everything after the
comma could easily be taken as a general statement as to when primer is used.


Are you for real? I made my comment in a reply to Leza's question,
my response came right after each question she specifically asked.
Anyone can see that I was replying to the question she asked about
her specific situation. I clearly was not giving advice to the
whole world, in every painting application, which of course can't
be done.



If someone who nothing about painting read those words, the only conclusion
they could come to is exactly what you said: "and you only use primer on
bare wood."


I see, so now whenever I answer a question, I have to frame it for
all possible readers, with all possible painting products, not
answer the one question for the situation stated.



Conveniently forgetting that you posted this:
Absolutely not true.

What would you conveniently forget something that is absolutely accurate?


I'm not forgetting what you posted, YOU are. You posted "Primer is
required when you want to use latex over oil. That is BS and worse,
it's the wrong answer to her question of what she wants to do.
If her wood siding is in good shape, has a couple coats of oil based
product on it, she can go over it with BM Arborcoat solid stain.
BM obviously thinks so, they don't say primer is needed in the
application instructions.




"Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil"


She's painting wood siding that has oil based product on it now.
Read the instructions for the BM product. IT says nothing about
requiring a primer when using it over existing product. If BM had
the requirement you claimed exists FOR HER PROJECT, then it's very
strange that it's not on the application instructions. Is BM so
stupid they can't tell people how to apply their own product
correctly?

Once again, I'm not talking about her project, I'm talking about the words
you used.

I see, you're here posting in a thread about her question and you
just made a blanket statement that primer has to be used when going
from oil to latex, but it's not directed at her? WTF? Do you think
we're all stupid?


If you were addressing her specific project, then it should have
been worded so as not to appear as a general statement regarding the use of
primer.


I put my replies right after her specific questions. Any reasonable
person can easily see that I was replying to her and not some guy
painting a steel boat in Botswana.

I responded to her question and got it right. You want to make the
case that I have to address every possible painting situation in my
answer. YOU on the other hand, gave her an answer which is wrong for
her situation and also wrong for most people who have oil based paint
and want to move to latex. Listening to you, she'd be doing 2x the
work. Who should she believe? You or BM?

trader_4 wrote:

You posted "Primer is
required when you want to use latex over oil. That is BS...

Not really -
If the old oil paint in question has a gloss, then you definitely want
to sand & prime it before using latex. If it's flat oil (paint or
stain), no need to prime first.

G.

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 9:14:38 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

You posted "Primer is
required when you want to use latex over oil. That is BS...

Not really -
If the old oil paint in question has a gloss, then you definitely want
to sand & prime it before using latex. If it's flat oil (paint or
stain), no need to prime first.

G.

Well then to flat out state "primer is required when you want to use
latex over oil" is BS and the wrong answer. And from the description
of the actual situation, the question asked, she's painting
house siding. You see many cases of house siding being painted in
gloss?

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 8:06:01 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 6:58:06 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Look, I was not addressing every possible painting project, only hers
with the specifics given. She's painting wood siding that has oil
based product on it now. What I said is true for what she is doing.

No argument, except that there is no way for anyone to know that you were
only addressing her specific situation. As soon as you used the words "No, and"
as in "...and you only use primer on bare wood" you have made what appears to
be a general statement regarding primer, not a statement specific to her
situation. The first part ("No") answered her question; everything after the
comma could easily be taken as a general statement as to when primer is used.


Are you for real? I made my comment in a reply to Leza's question,
my response came right after each question she specifically asked.
Anyone can see that I was replying to the question she asked about
her specific situation. I clearly was not giving advice to the
whole world, in every painting application, which of course can't
be done.



We continue to come at this from 2 completely opposite directions, so
let's just move on.

I wish Leza luck with her project and I hope your advice is taken
and used to her best advantage.

"Gary" wrote:
|
| You posted "Primer is
| required when you want to use latex over oil. That is BS...
|
| Not really -
| If the old oil paint in question has a gloss, then you definitely want
| to sand & prime it before using latex. If it's flat oil (paint or
| stain), no need to prime first.
|

I wouldn't prime it. Fortunately, most exterior
oil paint will long since have lost its gloss,
anyway. Especially on a fence. I just wash it
with hot water and TSP. Primer is meant to
soak in and provide a base for paint to adhere
to. It's not going to stick better than the finish
paint. And non-oil, quick-dry primers that don't
soak in are even worse, perpetrated by painters
who don't want to wait for coats to dry.
So oil primer for bare spots and maybe for
badly broken up paint that isn't peeling. That
would be true with either latex/acrylic or oil.
Oil finish paint should not go over bare wood.