On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:54:22 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 3:46 AM, philo wrote:
Now that you've stated all the facts, I'd just go ahead and use Win 10

I don't see that I have much choice in the matter. If 7even was at
EOL, then I'd repeat my XP approach: install ALL the updates and
then disable the update mechanism. I.e., "this is as good as it's
going to get".

But, as MS doesn't truly BUILD on past products (i.e., so each
has NONE of the flaws of its predecessors) but, rather, likes
to keep reinventing the (buggy) wheel, I imagine 10 will be
years getting to "stable" -- esp when effort is diverted from
providing stability and robustness in favor of "spying" and
countering anti-spying techniques!


Actually, Microsoft DOES build on their products.

Up until Win98 they all still had the original DOS core hidden in
them.

XP was a fresh re-write of MOST of the OS (compared to win98), but it
was actually based on the NT core which had been around for over a
decade,

Windows 7 built on top of XP code, 8 was an extention of 7, and 10 is
a major revision of 7 - apparently a parallel upgrade to windows 8.

Not too much that was actually solved in one version re-appears as the
identical problem in the next release.

What's hard to figure out is not how certain problems filter down from
version to version, but how the operating systems operate at all,
given how they are programmed. Millions of lines of code written by
programmers across the world - each working on a separate part of the
OS - with those parts combined together into the final release by a
relatively small cadre of programmers at Redmond. Most of the code is
generated in places as diverse as Ireland, India,China, France, Turkey
and Singapore.



[There is often an issue of protecting IP from theft in my business.
You're always faced with the question of "how much of my resources
do I want to devote to safeguarding my IP -- preventing theft
and/or counterfeiting -- and what would be the relative value of
spending those resources making a BETTER PRODUCT"?]

Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html

Plenty more out there.

If all they are doing is tweeking registry settings, then a good
article is just as effective for me. And, one less piece of
software that I'd have to install and maintain.

I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't really used
, so I am not concerned with spying

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 08:16:29 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/20/2016 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:57:19 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
| hours?
| What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
| on mine???

I was going to refer you to the article, but when
I went to look I saw it had been deleted! Sorry about
that. I didn't know I was sending you to a stripped
link. When I looked up the user link it claimed that
user had never made any submissions. I then went
to archive.org for a copy. They had one, but said
the machine that serves it is down:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160211...omments/835741
Weird. I always save such things, because URLs are
often altered or moved. But I also found an archive
linked from the comments on that page. It explains
how the whole thing was done:

https://archive.is/QFL8e

He has some sort of customized router and installed
Win10 on VirtualBox, on Linux Mint, so that he could
track all activity. The problem with tracking it from
Win10 itself is that Windows can no longer be trusted.
Some IP addresses are now hard-coded, so that a
DNS lookup is not even needed. (That actually started
many years ago with Windows Media Player.)

To the extent that it might be possible to catch
some of the traffic, you could try TCPView from
sysinternals. You might also try a firewall. But that's
tricky. The firewall would depend on Windows networking
functionality, and most are not detailed enough to
tell you what's going out, much less what the data is.

I think there are other utilities to record the actual
data going in and out, but I've never tried anything
like that.

Until I can see exactly what the guy supposedly used to log the
activity, I put very little stock in what he said.

Put a cheap router between you and your network connection.
Mine will log all incoming/outgoing accepted/rejected
connections, SYN flood attempts, PoD attempts, etc.

Attempts are logged in the form:
protocol sourceIP.port - destinationIP.port on interface
and tagged "Connection accepted" or "Connection refused"

For outbound connections, sourceIP is one of the IP's served by
the router while destinationIP is something foreign. The roles
reverse for incoming connections.

Unless you are good at remembering the common ports/protocols,
you'll tend to need a log interpreter to explain what each
attempt is likely trying to do.


And my suspicion is 90+% of these socalled "spyware" attempts are
totally inoccuous.
E.g., my ISP runs some network discovery tools that periodically
(i.e., once a minute) probe specific ports on my connection (these
are blocked by my router so the PC never sees them).

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:37:30 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:24:32 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:


| I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista

I've found that, too. Vista/7 is a brittle system, and
with so many restrictions it's not easy to fix things
that go wrong. I was trying to install IE11 recently
on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
hardly runs anywhere to begin with.

Hardy anywhere? It has 25% of the browser market.
I use it.
IE11 is still one of the most reliable and compatible browsers in the
PC world. Particularly with it's built-in compatability mode. I have
not found a webpage I could not access with IE11.
Firefox is a very close second, with Chrome and Safari for Windows
lagging well behind the pack.

IE9 was a disaster, from what I remember.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:09:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I just upgraded an old Atom 270 powered Acer Aspire 1 netbook to
Windows 10, and it runs faster than it did on Windows 7. It boots
faster too . As long as I don't try to run more than 2 applications at
a time it is great. (can't put more than, IIRC, 2gb of RAM in it -
which is it's major limiting factor)

What bothers me more than Win10 is the blasted new extended bios
(UEFI?) that Microsoft has required all OEMs to implement before being
licenced to distribute anything from Win8.0 on.

What a pain that stupidity can be!!!!

On 2/21/2016 12:31 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| | And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
| | minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
| | OS providing a service to you??)
| |
| |
| | Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?
|
| They are doing it. Office 365 is subscription by the
| month.
|
| We were talking about the OS, not apps.

I'm talking about both. Linux is not going to
replace Windows if it can't run MS Office and
Photoshop. The software is what people use
the OS for. And there's no reason to assume
charging a subscription for the OS won't happen,
either. It's all just a matter of market. MS could
do something like say, "OK, we're going to keep
Windows free, but patches will be on a yearly
subscription basis."

Quote:
And, that huge flaw that exposes you to all sorts of hackery
will be deployed to PAYING customers before we "give it
away" (no doubt because we are being forced to do so).

Of course, the new .NET framework that your application
REQUIRES is actually part of the OS so, unless you've a
paid subscription, you're SoL. We *may* make JUST that
component available for a separate fee...

And, of course, the more of a "minority opinion" your
needs become, the less likely we're going to make *any* effort
to cater to them!

Note that they are not *depriving* you of anything that you
*HAD*. Rather, just not granting you anything ADDITIONAL!
(Hey, SOMEONE has to pay for this development work!)

That's essentially what they
already do with business licensing. They rent it
on a multi-year basis.

Personally I never believed Adobe would get
away with charging rent on Photoshop, but people
have signed up in droves. They don't think they
have a choice.

Pay per play on music titles?? WTF?

The Unwashed Masses dictate (by their tolerance of what
you might consider "unreasonable"/outrageous) what we
*all* have to live with!

Microsoft will do the same. If they can get
away with it, they'll charge. And apologists like
yourself will undoubtedly be the first to rationalize
why it's reasonable.

Because it *is* reasonable! Why should everyone have to pay the
same license fee regardless of how "much" they use it? Or,
how VALUABLE to them it may be? I pay more if I use more
electricity, make more phone calls, use more natural gas,
watch more TV channels, etc.

The problem is one of consumer mindset: you have to condition the
consumer to thinking that this "makes sense" -- even if it ends up
costing them more (because you never TELL them that -- up front!)

My internet connection has no data limits. I can saturate the
link 24/7/365 and pay the same as if it was idle for all of
that time. Other folks have limits on how much data they can
move across the wire. Ages ago, I used UUCP over long distance
phone lines to move traffic to other hosts -- files were "priced"
in terms of the number of LD minutes required to move them!

I pick something that makes sense for *my* needs/usage. But,
if there's only one game in town (e.g., MS), then THEY decide
what their policies will be and I have a choice of accepting them,
or not. If they're the 800 pound gorilla and can convince enough
people to buy in to their practices (even if they don't LIKE it),
then I have no other choice.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:18:06 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 8:24 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista

I've found that, too. Vista/7 is a brittle system, and
with so many restrictions it's not easy to fix things
that go wrong. I was trying to install IE11 recently
on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
hardly runs anywhere to begin with. Only Win7/8/10
are supported. Yet it wouldn't install.

Win7-32 needed SP1, but that wouldn't install because,
it said, there were problematic customizations. ???
It's an extra laptop that's hardly ever used.

On Win7-64 IE11 kept saying it needed to download
patches first. It was ridiculous that it should *require*
post SP1 patches that are not in the installer. As it
turned out, those patches either weren't relevant or
were already installed. That didn't satisfy IE11. By the
time I was through, Win7 was unstable and a warning on
the Desktop was telling me that it was not "genuine".
(It's a Dell. Windows should have been able to see that.)
I finally ended up reinstalling from a disk image. The sheer
incompetence displayed with that IE11 fiasco is
jaw-dropping. IE10 was similar. I've never managed to
update beyond IE9 on that computer. Not that I care
a great deal. I only want it for testing webpages. But
it's inexcusable that they can't even make their own
browser software install on their own product without
problems.

In my case, I have tens of $K invested in software.
I don't want to "have to update" JUST BECAUSE THE OS
DOESN'T WANT TO "play nice" -- with a program that has
been working JUST FINE on an earlier OS.

That's a waste of money (buying a new license), time
(installing the new version), experience (RE-learning
a product that has been working fine) AND potential
risk (how many new bugs will I have to discover??).

"What is this going to *buy* me? Why do I want to take
on those COSTS if there isn't something to offset it??"

Granted, some apps work better in a 64b playing field.
So, I'll install them -- and JUST THEM -- on a 64b machine!
No need to bear the costs for moving all of these other
apps that are perfectly happy (and already configured!)
where they are!


So nobody is stopping you from installing the 32 bit version of
windows, either 7, 8, or 10, on your new machine. The license key for
64 bit works just fine to install the 32 bit version.

I downgrades a pile of Win7-64 pro machines to win7-32 pro because we
had a lot of legacy scanners that were not supported on the 64 bit
platform, and we were not about to spend $2400 each to replace 20-some
scanners.

A few have been "upconverted" back to 64 bit since the scanners have
taken themselves out of service.
Does having multiple cores help me write prose faster?
Will it help me come up with an engineering solution
faster ("meatware accelerator")? Does moving the start
menu to a different place make me more productive
(esp if you reflect the cost of adjusting to that change)?
Or, supporting transparency in the window manager??

Or, is all of this just "change for the sake of change"?

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:30:17 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 8:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that
could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck, those
FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

Again, the "home" is just a symptom of the problem.
These kids have lost their original support systems.
Single parent, drugs, abuse, incarceration, etc. so they've
LEFT those environments ("Anything has got to be BETTER
than this!")

There are lots of places where they can get a roof over
their heads -- even if only tenuously. But, they need
encouragement and support to stay in school so *they* don't
end up as "societal refuse" -- contributing little and
requiring (support, crime, incarceration, etc.) much!

Do you expect their *teachers* to fill the role that their
parents haven't? Or, expect them to cling to others (of the
opposite sex!) in similar situations (and baby makes three)?

Expecting a "home" (housing) to solve the problem is akin to
outlawing guns to solve the "gun problem"! Or, outlawing
drugs to solve the "drug problem". It's too naive.
Sadly, with mental health issues thrown into the pot, there are MANY
homeless young people who will not stay in a shelter, or even a
supportive "home" - preferring instead to exist on the fringes -
sleeping on park benches and eating from dumpsters - or resorting to
crime to support their "lifestyle"

Any "rules"or "structure" sends them litterally heading for the hills.
If there is a restriction on drug use, a curfew, a requirement to
contribute in any way to their own welfare, through chores, attendance
at classes, counselling, etc - they prefer to live on the streets than
to comply.

Sad, but way too painfully true with too many examples too close to
home to ignore. And it gets worse, generation by generation

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:22:54 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 8:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that
could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck,
those
FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

Again, the "home" is just a symptom of the problem.
These kids have lost their original support systems.
Single parent, drugs, abuse, incarceration, etc. so they've
LEFT those environments ("Anything has got to be BETTER
than this!")

There are lots of places where they can get a roof over
their heads -- even if only tenuously. But, they need
encouragement and support to stay in school so *they* don't
end up as "societal refuse" -- contributing little and
requiring (support, crime, incarceration, etc.) much!

Do you expect their *teachers* to fill the role that their
parents haven't? Or, expect them to cling to others (of the
opposite sex!) in similar situations (and baby makes three)?

Expecting a "home" (housing) to solve the problem is akin to
outlawing guns to solve the "gun problem"! Or, outlawing
drugs to solve the "drug problem". It's too naive.

Maybe, a solution is combining multiple efforts.
In too many cases, untill mental ilness issues can be addressed and
treated, none of the rest of the problems have a solution..

On 2/21/2016 12:45 PM, Frank wrote:
Think I just read some place that there are 7 abandoned houses in the US for
each person that is homeless.

So, we just have to get the homeless people to those homes, somehow
transfer title to them (so they feel like they *can* stay), enable
them to refurbish/renovate as required, *then* get them jobs so
they can continue to live in the home (which was probably abandoned
because the previous occupant could NOT find work in that market!)

A group, here, tried to build "mini homes" for the homeless.
City code allows you to put a structure of 200 sq ft on a property
without having to comply with codes, taxes, etc.

I went to an organizational meeting of this group (I tend to be
involved with a number of charities -- "civic duty", yada yada yada).
At the very least, I figured I could prepare a formal set of
drawings ("blueprints") so they could just treat this as a
"connect the dots" sort of activity, thereafter. As soon as I
saw the local TV crew, I realized this was someone's claim to fame
and not a genuine effort DESIGNED to succeed!

It was completely impractical from the start. Unless you treat those as
"shelters" -- sort of like a "lean-to" you might find on a wilderness
trail ("this will keep the rain from falling on your head, and very
little more") -- it quickly becomes unmanageable.

How do you provide water? sanitation? heat? (forget about electricity
as that's a relative "luxury") Who assumes responsibility for keeping
them intact/safe/secure/maintained? Who assumes responsibility for
maintaining "order" in such a shanty-town? Who assumes (legal)
responsibility if someone is injured on "the property"? etc.

How do you address the needs of the *community* -- I'm sure many
folks wouldn't be keen on a "shanty-town" popping up in their
neighborhood *park*! Especially anticipating how it will "run
down" over time, the sorts of people it is likely to attract,
etc.

"Sorry, I don't think I can contribute anything to your project"

Yet another example of people thinking the problem is a lot
simpler than it REALLY IS!

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 12:25:56 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| I was trying to install IE11 recently
| on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
| to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
| hardly runs anywhere to begin with.
|
| Hardy anywhere? It has 25% of the browser market.
| I use it.
|

You have my sympathy.

IE has anywhere from 10% to 50% share, depending on
who you ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...f_web_browsers

But that's IE, not IE11. IE11 can only run on Win7/8/10.
It won't install on XP. (Win10 only recently passed XP
in usage. XP is still popular. So not being able to run IE11
on XP is a rather pitiful statement about Microsoft.)
And it won't install on any other operating system. Given
that Microsoft can only manage to get it to run on 7/8/10,
I don't think it's too much to ask that the install should
be smooth.

The reason I wanted to test with IE11 was because MS
broke compatibility in a big way with IE11 and Edge

IE11 and Edge are two totally different browsers Edge is a "work in
process". Ie11 has built in compatability support and can open and
display any webpage that could be opened or viewed with 8, 9, or 10.
You may have to tell the browser to use compatability mode - but it is
there, available, and simple to implement.

. They've
broken most of the technologies that worked in IE4-10.
I wanted to see how my own website pages would work.
It turned out they don't work at all and would require a total,
complex rewrite if I want to support IE11/Edge. Not only
would they need to be rewritten, but IE11/Edge no longer
support "quirks mode", which allowed one to write webpages
that would look the same in IE5 to IE10. Without quirks
mode each version of IE is incompatible with the rest and
each needs its own special code exceptions in order to
display properly.

Never depend on ANY OS or browser to continue to support
"undoccumented calls" or "undoccumented features"
A lot of programmers get way to "smart" for their own good.

Given the scale of such a task, I decided,
instead, to just show an apology/error page for IE11/Edge.
That page suggests that the visitor use another
browser or, if that's not possible and they're desperate,
that they disable style and reload the page. I get an average
of about 400 unique visitors on a weekday. Of those, I
estimate 250-300 may be real people. Altogether I'm seeing
about 3-10 visitors per day using IE11 or Edge. Nearly all
of those are using IE11 on Win7. (Probably a third of those
reload the page in another browser within seconds, indicating
that they don't depend on IE.) My site is mainly geared
toward Windows "power users", scripters, programmers
and IT people. Given all that, I'd say that IE11 is not a
big factor online. Non-techie people don't generally update
things. Techie people know better than to use IE online.
So the people actually using IE11 are mostly Microsoft
fans who are somewhat handy.

Just put a note on the page saying if the page does not open properly
in IE11 to use compatability mode.

With Edge, you are totally on your own - I think Microsoft made a big
mistake deploying Edge before it was anywhere near ready for prime
time. It's the only part of W10 that is not better than or equal to
W7, W8, or W8.1 in my eyes.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 12:20:10 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:



I had an app (Ghost) that hung doing a simple directory look-up on a
machine after I added 8gb of memory.

Of course - it is a "Norton" product. More specifically it is a
Symantec product - they have managed to take virtually every excellent
product line they have absorbed and turn it into an unmitigated
disaster in 2 revisions or less.

It never hung until I added the
8 gig. At first I thought it was a permanent hang, but found that it
took a full 2 minutes to resolve its answer. Every time.
I quit using it when I found a suitable replacement.

I've quit using every symantec product I have ever used (and over the
years, that is a LOT of product) because there are better alternatives
to virtually everything they produce or market today - and half of
them are free!!!)

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:42:07 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
| minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
| OS providing a service to you??)
|
|
| Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?

They are doing it. Office 365 is subscription by the
month. Adobe has gone the same way with Creative
Suite. They pretend the programs are online "cloud apps"
to justify subscription, but they install locally just like
anything else. Subscription is what this whole thing
is about. It's the reason for free Win10 updates from 7/8.

Why Office 365 and CS? Because those are monopoly
products that are critical to business. They can afford
to get a bit pushy. Your Windows PC itself may end up
being subscription at some point. Like an addicted
Facebookie complaining about ads and spying, it will
probably be too late for you to pull yourself away at
that point. That's because they won't do it until it *is*
at that point.


At this point you can still buy "perpetual license" versions of both
Office and Adobe's products.

Nobody is forcing you to rent Office 365. You can still buy Office
2016 Home and Student, Home and Business, as well as Professional. in
the retail market.. Sure, professional costs $520 Canadian, while
Personal 365 is only $69 per year or $7 per month. Home and office
2016 is only $260, Home and Student is $150.

Comes down to the old addage -" if you want first quality oats you
need to be willing to pay first quality price. If you are willing to
settle for (or are intent on buying) oats that have already gone
through the horse, those DOcome a little cheaper"

Can't blame Microsoft for responding to market forces that dictate the
lowest price wins, and damn the consequences!!.
Microsoft started with ads in the OS and attempts at
online services way back in Win98. They've been very
gradually pulling the rug out ever since: locking down
options, creating online services, trying to lead people
into those services by pushing them to do things like
get a "Microsoft ID". (And remember Passport before that?
MS was hoping to have a lock on online wallets. The only
problems were that nobody wanted an online wallet and
no one trusted Microsoft.) Vista was originally supposed
to be a locked down system based on .Net. (Look up
"Longhorn".) If it had worked that would have closed
the door to 3rd-party programmers who wanted to have
system access. Only sandboxed software would have
been possible, and MS probably could have started their
online "store" to take a cut of software sales, like they're
now doing with tablet apps.

So Microsoft hasn't taken all this time for lack of
trying. They're constantly cooking up new gimmicks.
But there have been various reasons why it hasn't
worked out for them. One is that they're terrible at
doing services. Another reason is because it's only
recently that Internet speeds are fast enough for
services. And even now, something like MS Word *really*
online is a pipedream. It would be too slow. Another
reason is because Microsoft has lost money on
almost everything they've ever done except their
two monopoly products, Windows and Office. So they
see Apple raking in bucks from suckers with iPhones
and they want a piece of that action. But it's a big
risk for them. Services is not their forte. Only greed
is leading them to forego common sense and push into
a market they don't do well. The trick is to get enough
frogs in pans, like you, who don't realize the heat's
being turned up until they're already cooked.


Microsoft is attempting to respond to market forces. Vista totally
misread the market and died a very quick death (as well it should
have)

If Americans and Canadians in particular vote with their wallets,
Microsoft will continue in the direction those votes dictate. If you
buy the 365 option, that is the direction Microsoft will continue. If
you shun the "product as a service"model and but the higher priced
perpetual licence products, that is the direction Microsoft will go.

Microsoft has not become the giant it is by continuously misreading
the market or by mis-responding to the market .

On 02/21/2016 04:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

How do you address the needs of the *community* -- I'm sure many
folks wouldn't be keen on a "shanty-town" popping up in their
neighborhood *park*! Especially anticipating how it will "run
down" over time, the sorts of people it is likely to attract,
etc.

"Sorry, I don't think I can contribute anything to your project"

Yet another example of people thinking the problem is a lot
simpler than it REALLY IS!



But an excellent point was raised.


If someone was homeless wouldn't the first concern be finding a place
for them to live...and food?

How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.

On 2/21/2016 2:57 PM, wrote:
Sadly, with mental health issues thrown into the pot, there are MANY
homeless young people who will not stay in a shelter, or even a
supportive "home" - preferring instead to exist on the fringes -
sleeping on park benches and eating from dumpsters - or resorting to
crime to support their "lifestyle"

I'll admit I've not been around much of this organization's "clientele".
But, have a friend who works for them (paid). And, the dozens of kids
I've encountered while working on the premises.

For the most part, all seem like they would much rather NOT be in
the shape they are in, wish they *had* a "home" (home includes family
and support) that was their "safe haven", etc. Even those stupid (?)
enough to end up with kids seemed to be trying to make a genuine
effort to "make it work".

[I did meet one young girl who obviously had some psychological/mental
problems -- but not destructive behavior, just far less mature
than she should have been. I.e., the sort who NEEDED someone to
manage her time and finances]

But, I believe the approach to the problem has been self-serving
instead of serving the interests of the kids/clients. It seems
like policies teach the kids how to "game the system" more than
"how to succeed". E.g., why graduate at 17/18 when you *should*?
Then, you lose this support! So, drag it out until you are 21
(22?) -- milk the beast for as long as is possible! : After
all, nothing in their life is really going to CHANGE just because
they are older...

IME, many (most?) non-profits start out with noble goals. But, as
they grow, they start rationalizing "needs" that reflect their
PERSONAL needs instead of the needs of the population they serve.
I.e., *needing* office space (instead of operating out of a
Banker's Box on the dining room table), *needing* a salary (so
they can devote ALL their efforts to this), *needing* fundraisers
(to bring in more monies "for the cause"), needing to provide
office space and salaries for those fundraisers, likewise an
accountant, publicist, etc.

Each individual rationalization SEEMS to make sense -- until you
step back and look at them in the aggregate and say, "You *need*
all this to do *what*, exactly?"

[I.e., "Can you give me the names of 3 teens who are _most_at_risk_,
presently? If not, why don't you have that information? Isn't that
what you are claiming as your purpose?"]

Any "rules"or "structure" sends them litterally heading for the hills.
If there is a restriction on drug use, a curfew, a requirement to
contribute in any way to their own welfare, through chores, attendance
at classes, counselling, etc - they prefer to live on the streets than
to comply.

Those don't make it into this sort of program. Society has to
find other ways of dealing with them.

Sad, but way too painfully true with too many examples too close to
home to ignore. And it gets worse, generation by generation

I've known a couple of guys who lived "on the street". One's
mother wouldn't let him live *in* her house -- but allowed him to
set up a tent in the back yard (!). Another lived under
bridges and got around by bicycle. A friend allowed him to move
into her home (spare room). Until she was out of town on an extended
trip -- at which time, he helped himself to several of her belongings
and disappeared. (apparently, couldn't get the monkey off his back)

You can only help the people who WANT to be helped AND who are
willing to help THEMSELVES!

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:24:24 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| IE has anywhere from 10% to 50% share, depending on
| who you ask.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...f_web_browsers
|
| But that's IE, not IE11. IE11 can only run on Win7/8/10.
| It won't install on XP. (Win10 only recently passed XP
| in usage. XP is still popular. So not being able to run IE11
| on XP is a rather pitiful statement about Microsoft.)
|
| Those stats I gave are for IE11. It's all over the net.
| Why you use a Wiki with old data as a reference is beyond my ken.

Because that Wikipedia page is listing the
popular stat companies, like statcounter.
Perhaps your ken could manage to come up
with links if you want to make contrary
claims. "It's all over the net" is not useful.
You may have got it from an ad in your hotmail
for all I know.

Here's w3c's stats. Is that official enough?
They put IE11 at 6.75% as of January. That's
unusually low because they're counting all visitors,
not just desktops. On the other hand, phones
and tablets are very real considerations these
days. On the bright side, most of those are
running Safari or Chrome, so they don't need
any special treatment. On my own site those
numbers seem to be about right.

Other counters that only track desktops give
figures 25-50% for all IE versions.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...bvIDg&&ct=clnk

It will vary a lot. Shopping sites will vary from
more techie sites, for instance. A counter that
tracks Victorias Secret and Amazon may have
different results from one that tracks CNN and
EBay but not Amazon.
25% for IE11 may be realistic in some markets
*for desktop only*, but in general browser usage
it's quite low. And I know from my own server logs
that IE11 is only an occasional visitor to my site,
despite it being a Microsoft-centric site. (Frankly I'm
shocked at how many people prefer google's Chrome
spyware. I don't consider IE spyware. Just unsafe,
non-standards-compliant junk. I actually *love* IE
for offline use in HTAs. I just don't think it's fit for
online use. Chrome, on the other hand, really is
spyware.... Well, I should say I don't consider IE
to be exceptional spyware. most browsers these
days are tracking people, under the guise of such
things as "website reputation reporting". Even Firefox
has become very sleazy.)

| XP is only about 10% of the market now.
| But people still drive old cars. My cars are 2003 and 1995.
|
That's what I find, too. XP, 8 and 10 are
all in the 10% range. The rest is mostly Win7.
Another way to look at it is that Windows
XP-10 is about 90% of OS share online. About
15+% of those, or 1/6, XP and Vista, can't run
Microsoft's latest version of IE. No other OS
can run Microsoft's latest version of IE. I don't
know about you, but I'd say that's pretty bad
performance on the part of Microsoft. To my
mind that makes IE11 a niche browser, like
Safari. I'm happy to support Safari if I can, but
I'm not going to go out of my way for it. The
difference is that Safari, like every other non-IE
browser, is standards compliant. So I only need
to support one of those -- Firefox, Chrome, Safari,
etc -- and I automatically support them all. IE11,
by contrast, breaks compatibility with IE10,
which breaks with IE9, which breaks with IE8...
and so on. And they all break compatibility with
standards.

You're free to support IE11 if you have a
website. I see it as a case of diminishing
returns. It's just not worth my time and effort.

Not when IE11 supports everything back at least to IE8 with it's
built-in compatability mode..

On 2/21/2016 3:30 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2016 04:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

How do you address the needs of the *community* -- I'm sure many
folks wouldn't be keen on a "shanty-town" popping up in their
neighborhood *park*! Especially anticipating how it will "run
down" over time, the sorts of people it is likely to attract,
etc.

"Sorry, I don't think I can contribute anything to your project"

Yet another example of people thinking the problem is a lot
simpler than it REALLY IS!

But an excellent point was raised.

If someone was homeless wouldn't the first concern be finding a place for them
to live...and food?

As I said, there are many ways to get them shelter: a relative
(grandparents being a big factor), another social service, a
state agency, etc.

But, after housing them, all you've got is a child who's dry when
it rains -- but still has no support to continue on his/her
"growth". He's sitting in class next to Bobby whose surfing the
web with his iPhone6. And, Betsy who's wearing the latest teen
fashion. And, Bobby and Betsy don't even CONSIDER the possibility
that they won't have a place to sleep tomorrow night or next week.
And, Bobby and Betsy have someone expressing *some* interest in
their well-being, ensuring they get dental and medical care,
schlepping them around town for whatever activities they deem
important, etc.

Instead, they wonder when some program is going to lose its
funding and drop them out on the street ("Sorry, Bobby, our
funding doesn't cover you now that you are 17"). Or, if that
ache in the side of his mouth will go away by itself. Or,
whether he should buy toothpaste or dinner with the $3 he's
got in his pocket.

And, you want him to drag his *ss to the local public library to
use the public computers to do his homework assignment? Waiting
for the bus to take him there. Making sure he finishes in time
for the ride back home. Stopping to pick up that tube of
toothpaste along the way (and catching yet another bus to
finish the trip), etc.

How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.

Until he gets too old to attend school "on the public dole"
and discovers that the only jobs he's qualified for are that
of landscaper or pool cleaner. And then tries to get his GED
(now with NO support) to better avail himself of those other jobs.

These problems are rarely simple. Addressing one aspect is pretty much
like curing the cancer but the patient dies in the process!

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 12:39:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



It doesn't buy you anything. You spend time building the HUGE
images, hoping the media never falters -- all for the potential
of recovering it in a single operation. What happens if you
want to recover it to a machine that has different drivers?
I.e., your windows image isn't compatible with the new hardware.

Trust me, I've been doing this a LONG time.
So have I - 26 years and counting
I've learned where the
costs are (for the tools that *I* have) and how best to avoid them.
I have zero desire to spend time maintaining my *purchased* tools
(though obviously have an obligation to maintain my *developed*
tools). So, I look for every economy possible to save labor and
expense.

An "image" can be incompatible and unrecoverable to a new machine, and
is reliant on the imaging software. (just like the old "backup"
programs) Not so a "clone" - and with the price of media (hard drives
in particular) keeping an uptodate "clone " of important drives is not
an onerous job.

That clone can be put into any compatible machine and with a few
driver changes be up and running in no-time - EXEPT on newer computers
implementing the EUFI bios system.

I'm sure there is a way around that bugaboo too, but I haven't gotten
there yet.

E.g., I have built ISO's of all my CD/DVD media so I don't have
to "feed discs" into a machine -- just mount ISO's. I keep things
like clipart/font libraries offline -- yet have an online
catalogue (so I can preview the clipart and fonts to decide
*which* CD/DVD-ISO I will need to access to retrieve the item).

My heart goes out to IT guys who have to do this stuff day in and day out.
It would feel like digging ditches and refilling them at the end of each
day!
Been digging those ditches for 26 years. And every few years they
throw different clay and rocks into the mix, so you need to develop
different picks and shovels to dig the ditch.
The filling of the ditches tends to be automatic - so you end up
redigging the same ditch time after time if you don't shore up the
walls effectively.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:42:25 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

On 2/21/2016 9:32 AM, Don Y wrote:
Hi Frank,

On 2/20/2016 3:41 PM, Frank wrote:
On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

I had to turn off several privacy settings that were either intrusive or
collected data taking an extra minute to shut down.

What happens if you're "offline"? What happens if you STAY
offline? (i.e., is there a point where it simply refuses
to operate? Or, is there likely to *be* a point where it
refuses to operate unless it can "get a cookie" from it's
masters??)

My only disappointment with Win 10 was their taking off several time
wasting
games and making you go to their ap store to get them for free.
Not super intrusive but you will get a pop up ad at the end of the
game and
they tell you you can make it ad free by paying $1.49 a month.

I think Apple and Android are in the up sale business and MS has
joined them.
Future software upgrades will be free but won't be free of them trying
to up
sell you aps.

I tend to avoid ads (in my browser as well as what I consciously set my
eyes on). I don't buy the whole "we're trying to improve YOUR user
experience argument: if you'd wanted to do that, you'd make the
product more secure, less buggy, more responsive, etc. -- not push
advertising at me (for things you THINK that I might be interested in).

So, I'm suspicious of folks using that sort of logic to market a
*free* OS to me (or, in this case, to the kids that I'll be serving).

OTOH, this may just be "the way its going to be", going forward.

Sad that the FOSS community wastes so much time adding features
and tweeking performance instead of concentrating on offering
a reliable, stable product that could compete. But, so long
as you've got folks fixated on stroking their own sense of
*personal* accomplishment -- instead of addressing that need -- then
the trend will never change (a mindset is a tough thing to shake)

Otherwise I'm happy with Win 10 and have not had any serious issues since
starting to use it.

I'm sure MS is watching the numbers and won't get Draconian until they know
their users have no choice. The fact that they track how long you are
*in* windows suggests a "usage billing" option may be in the cards for
the future -- like "minutes" and "data" on your cell phone.

Maybe *that* will be what's needed to kill the kitty videos? :

Ads in the game are not that intrusive but fact they are there makes it
annoying. As for Win 10, I heard Kim Komando say that the underlying
architecture is better. I also use ad blocks on my Win 10 desktop and
Android tablet but Android pop ups are far worse than Windows.

What do you expect with a "free" OS from a for-profit corporation??
It's going to be paid for one way or another.

Between IOS, Windows, and Android I've decided for myself and my
requirements, Windows is the lesser of 3 evils.

Websites are just as guilty of this intrusiveness crap. I was looking
at new model cars on a car maker site and later logging into another
site there was an ad for the cars I was looking at. My Firefox browser
is set to delete all cookies and history when I leave it but session
stuff can get through.

On 02/21/2016 04:45 PM, Don Y wrote:


How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.

Until he gets too old to attend school "on the public dole"
and discovers that the only jobs he's qualified for are that
of landscaper or pool cleaner. And then tries to get his GED
(now with NO support) to better avail himself of those other jobs.

These problems are rarely simple. Addressing one aspect is pretty much
like curing the cancer but the patient dies in the process!


If a kid goes off track at any early age, it's near impossible to get
them back on...the pattern is set.

One would think in a country as wealthy as this there would be some type
of a safety net.

| The reason I wanted to test with IE11 was because MS
| broke compatibility in a big way with IE11 and Edge
|
| IE11 and Edge are two totally different browsers Edge is a "work in
| process".

They're not that different. Edge is based on IE, with
a lot of things removed. It's the same basic rendering
engine. And a lot of those changes also affect IE11:

https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/...t-attachevent/

| Ie11 has built in compatability support and can open and
| display any webpage that could be opened or viewed with 8, 9, or 10.
| You may have to tell the browser to use compatability mode - but it is
| there, available, and simple to implement.
|

No, it isn't. Not for a web designer. You might be
able to do it as the viewer, but for the person writing
the webpage it requires testing the browser userAgent
and then writing special code for each version of IE.
As I explained above, up through IE10 there was "quirks
mode". As long as I left out the DOCTYPE tag in a
webpage it would be rendered old-style in all versions
of IE. In IE11 quirks mode no longer works, so each IE
version suddenly requires unique code if one wants to
accomodate IE11, because each version of IE is
incompatible with the last. That means potentially
writing one webpage for all other browsers, then one
each for each version of IE! And every change in design
would require testing in all versions.

| Never depend on ANY OS or browser to continue to support
| "undoccumented calls" or "undoccumented features"
| A lot of programmers get way to "smart" for their own good.

I don't mean to be harsh, but you're talking way
beyond your expertise here. None of this has
anything to do with undocumented features.
If you don't write graphically complex webpages
by hand then there's no way you could know the
implications of what's changed with IE11/Edge.
For example, VBScript no longer works in IE11.
VBS has been standard and documented ever
since IE4. Microsoft just decided to remove
support for it as of IE11. They also removed
support for the IE document object model. That's
to say that the actual script code, whether VBS
or javascript, can no longer be written in accord
with the language as officially defined and
documented by Microsoft since IE4. A few versions
back that was the *only* way it could be coded.
It will work in IE10 compatibility mode, but that
means writing different webpages for different IE
versions, as noted above, because IE10 mode is
not going to display the same way as quirks mode,
IE8 mode, IE 9 mode, etc.

It's complicated and I expect few people really
care about the details. But the long and the short
of it is that Microsoft has made a calamity of IE
for over 15 years now. It's a bit like the way
refrigerators are made these days. With Firefox,
Chrome, Safari it's like a refrigerator that's put
together with only #2 phillips head screws. So
you only need one tool to fix dozens of refrigerator
types. The version doesn't matter. They've always
been made that way. Internet Explorer is like a
typical refrigerator: One screw is phillips. Another
is a hex head. Another is a torx head. Then there
might be 3 sizes of square drive. You have to have
a big toolbox to work on it. Now imagine that they
also change several of those screws on each model,
in a vaguely defined attempt to become more
standardized. So now you have no idea what you'll
find if you go to fix a frig. You'll need to carry a
big toolbox. That's analogous to what Microsoft
has done with IE. In many respects they did it
with good intentions. But it's nevetheless a big
mess.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 16:30:38 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/21/2016 04:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

How do you address the needs of the *community* -- I'm sure many
folks wouldn't be keen on a "shanty-town" popping up in their
neighborhood *park*! Especially anticipating how it will "run
down" over time, the sorts of people it is likely to attract,
etc.

"Sorry, I don't think I can contribute anything to your project"

Yet another example of people thinking the problem is a lot
simpler than it REALLY IS!



But an excellent point was raised.


If someone was homeless wouldn't the first concern be finding a place
for them to live...and food?

How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.
Getting them to actually stay in the shelters/homes available is
one of the first hurdles that need to be crossed.

On 2/21/2016 3:59 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 11:22:54 -0600, Muggles
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 8:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that
could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck,
those
FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

Again, the "home" is just a symptom of the problem.
These kids have lost their original support systems.
Single parent, drugs, abuse, incarceration, etc. so they've
LEFT those environments ("Anything has got to be BETTER
than this!")

There are lots of places where they can get a roof over
their heads -- even if only tenuously. But, they need
encouragement and support to stay in school so *they* don't
end up as "societal refuse" -- contributing little and
requiring (support, crime, incarceration, etc.) much!

Do you expect their *teachers* to fill the role that their
parents haven't? Or, expect them to cling to others (of the
opposite sex!) in similar situations (and baby makes three)?

Expecting a "home" (housing) to solve the problem is akin to
outlawing guns to solve the "gun problem"! Or, outlawing
drugs to solve the "drug problem". It's too naive.


Maybe, a solution is combining multiple efforts.

In too many cases, untill mental ilness issues can be addressed and
treated, none of the rest of the problems have a solution..

I don't think there's a solutions for everyone because some people just
don't want a solution.

--
Maggie

On 02/21/2016 05:24 PM, wrote:


If someone was homeless wouldn't the first concern be finding a place
for them to live...and food?

How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.
Getting them to actually stay in the shelters/homes available is
one of the first hurdles that need to be crossed.



Absolutely. Because I worked with mentally ill adults, it was hard not
to come in contact with those who were homeless. Most of them could have
gotten into some type of shelter, but they claimed the treatment they'd
get from peers was unbearable , so they preferred living on the streets.

Though I like to think of myself as compassionate,
I have to say that if someone dies not have enough skills to keep
themselves off the street, trying to teach them how to use an Excel
spread sheet is a bit absurd.

On 2/21/2016 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:42:25 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

On 2/21/2016 9:32 AM, Don Y wrote:
Hi Frank,

On 2/20/2016 3:41 PM, Frank wrote:
On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

I had to turn off several privacy settings that were either intrusive or
collected data taking an extra minute to shut down.

What happens if you're "offline"? What happens if you STAY
offline? (i.e., is there a point where it simply refuses
to operate? Or, is there likely to *be* a point where it
refuses to operate unless it can "get a cookie" from it's
masters??)

My only disappointment with Win 10 was their taking off several time
wasting
games and making you go to their ap store to get them for free.
Not super intrusive but you will get a pop up ad at the end of the
game and
they tell you you can make it ad free by paying $1.49 a month.

I think Apple and Android are in the up sale business and MS has
joined them.
Future software upgrades will be free but won't be free of them trying
to up
sell you aps.

I tend to avoid ads (in my browser as well as what I consciously set my
eyes on). I don't buy the whole "we're trying to improve YOUR user
experience argument: if you'd wanted to do that, you'd make the
product more secure, less buggy, more responsive, etc. -- not push
advertising at me (for things you THINK that I might be interested in).

So, I'm suspicious of folks using that sort of logic to market a
*free* OS to me (or, in this case, to the kids that I'll be serving).

OTOH, this may just be "the way its going to be", going forward.

Sad that the FOSS community wastes so much time adding features
and tweeking performance instead of concentrating on offering
a reliable, stable product that could compete. But, so long
as you've got folks fixated on stroking their own sense of
*personal* accomplishment -- instead of addressing that need -- then
the trend will never change (a mindset is a tough thing to shake)

Otherwise I'm happy with Win 10 and have not had any serious issues since
starting to use it.

I'm sure MS is watching the numbers and won't get Draconian until they know
their users have no choice. The fact that they track how long you are
*in* windows suggests a "usage billing" option may be in the cards for
the future -- like "minutes" and "data" on your cell phone.

Maybe *that* will be what's needed to kill the kitty videos? :

Ads in the game are not that intrusive but fact they are there makes it
annoying. As for Win 10, I heard Kim Komando say that the underlying
architecture is better. I also use ad blocks on my Win 10 desktop and
Android tablet but Android pop ups are far worse than Windows.

What do you expect with a "free" OS from a for-profit corporation??
It's going to be paid for one way or another.

Between IOS, Windows, and Android I've decided for myself and my
requirements, Windows is the lesser of 3 evils.

Same here. I do not mind paying but don't like the pestering that can
come with free stuff.

Short look at Linux told me I'd be paying for it with sweat equity.

I like to use computers. I like to use my cars. But, I don't care to
be tinkering under the hood with either.

On 02/21/2016 03:14 PM, wrote:
Of course - it is a "Norton" product. More specifically it is a
Symantec product - they have managed to take virtually every excellent
product line they have absorbed and turn it into an unmitigated
disaster in 2 revisions or less.
+1

On 2/21/2016 5:01 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2016 04:45 PM, Don Y wrote:


How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.

Until he gets too old to attend school "on the public dole"
and discovers that the only jobs he's qualified for are that
of landscaper or pool cleaner. And then tries to get his GED
(now with NO support) to better avail himself of those other jobs.

These problems are rarely simple. Addressing one aspect is pretty much
like curing the cancer but the patient dies in the process!


If a kid goes off track at any early age, it's near impossible to get
them back on...the pattern is set.

One would think in a country as wealthy as this there would be some type
of a safety net.

Our country looks like it' wealthy, but the reality is a good many
regular people are living paycheck to paycheck in debt via credit cards,
and living way about their real means. It takes 2 incomes to just make
ends meet and sometimes that still isn't enough because the people are
underemployed, and a few paychecks from losing what they do have.

It's a ruse and slight of hand, imo. SOME people are genuinely wealthy,
but, I don't think that's really significant enough to say our country
is wealthy.

--
Maggie

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 15:45:15 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 3:30 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2016 04:03 PM, Don Y wrote:

How do you address the needs of the *community* -- I'm sure many
folks wouldn't be keen on a "shanty-town" popping up in their
neighborhood *park*! Especially anticipating how it will "run
down" over time, the sorts of people it is likely to attract,
etc.

"Sorry, I don't think I can contribute anything to your project"

Yet another example of people thinking the problem is a lot
simpler than it REALLY IS!

But an excellent point was raised.

If someone was homeless wouldn't the first concern be finding a place for them
to live...and food?

As I said, there are many ways to get them shelter: a relative
(grandparents being a big factor), another social service, a
state agency, etc.

But, after housing them, all you've got is a child who's dry when
it rains -- but still has no support to continue on his/her
"growth". He's sitting in class next to Bobby whose surfing the
web with his iPhone6. And, Betsy who's wearing the latest teen
fashion. And, Bobby and Betsy don't even CONSIDER the possibility
that they won't have a place to sleep tomorrow night or next week.
And, Bobby and Betsy have someone expressing *some* interest in
their well-being, ensuring they get dental and medical care,
schlepping them around town for whatever activities they deem
important, etc.

What do you say about the child of a child, who is kicked out of her
"home" because she's inconvenient at age 15? (mother moving on to a
new relationship). Her grandparents are out of the picture - in some
cases for the best -her birth grandmother milking welfare, her
grandfather committed suicide when his second marriage was going down
the tube, and the step-grandfather wanting nothing to do with the
child or her mother (stepdaughter).

Great-aunt steps in and offers her not only a place to sleep, but a
home.. Mother would rather have her on the street.
The teanager is in a mess - abuse issues, abandonment - into
recreational drugs --- the whole gammit.

How do you get the kid to go back to school and live up to the simple
rules - be home at a decent time and be respectfull - and to show up
for counselling appointments - all the costs above and beyond the
social network covered by great aunt and great uncles -??

What do you do in such a situation????

It can all be traced back to her grandfather making a bad relationship
decision - thinking with the "wrong head", then compounding that
mistake on the second marriage.

The 2 girls from the first marriage fall into the "cinderella"
situation - and bounce back and forth between the birth mother and the
father/stepmother - both ending up on the streets along with their
half-brother for periods of time - the youngest getting pregnant at 14
or 15 - resulting in the birth of this poor gal. Father is not in the
picture, grandparents not terribly interested - the kid and her kid
are "inconvenient". After a number of years the young mother gets into
a "stable relationship" which progresses to marriage - and the
revelation of sexual interference with the now teanaged daughter -
resulting in divorce and total family breakdown - and at the same
time the breakdown of the grandparents marriage and suicide death of
the grandfather who had just started to become a positive influence in
the youngster's life. - and she gets put out on the street.

What do you do in such a situation?

What solutions are there for situations like this?????
3 short generations from a "good family" and stability, to almost
total disaster....
Instead, they wonder when some program is going to lose its
funding and drop them out on the street ("Sorry, Bobby, our
funding doesn't cover you now that you are 17"). Or, if that
ache in the side of his mouth will go away by itself. Or,
whether he should buy toothpaste or dinner with the $3 he's
got in his pocket.

And what about the ones that "chose" to live on the street when all
their requirements are being made available to them -

And, you want him to drag his *ss to the local public library to
use the public computers to do his homework assignment? Waiting
for the bus to take him there. Making sure he finishes in time
for the ride back home. Stopping to pick up that tube of
toothpaste along the way (and catching yet another bus to
finish the trip), etc.

How to create a spread sheet would seem to be of tertiary importance.

Except it is a way out of the long-term situation, if they take
advantage of it.

Until he gets too old to attend school "on the public dole"
and discovers that the only jobs he's qualified for are that
of landscaper or pool cleaner. And then tries to get his GED
(now with NO support) to better avail himself of those other jobs.

These problems are rarely simple. Addressing one aspect is pretty much
like curing the cancer but the patient dies in the process!

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:15:53 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| The reason I wanted to test with IE11 was because MS
| broke compatibility in a big way with IE11 and Edge
|
| IE11 and Edge are two totally different browsers Edge is a "work in
| process".

They're not that different. Edge is based on IE, with
a lot of things removed. It's the same basic rendering
engine. And a lot of those changes also affect IE11:

https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/...t-attachevent/

| Ie11 has built in compatability support and can open and
| display any webpage that could be opened or viewed with 8, 9, or 10.
| You may have to tell the browser to use compatability mode - but it is
| there, available, and simple to implement.
|

No, it isn't. Not for a web designer. You might be
able to do it as the viewer, but for the person writing
the webpage it requires testing the browser userAgent
and then writing special code for each version of IE.
As I explained above, up through IE10 there was "quirks
mode". As long as I left out the DOCTYPE tag in a
webpage it would be rendered old-style in all versions
of IE. In IE11 quirks mode no longer works, so each IE
version suddenly requires unique code if one wants to
accomodate IE11, because each version of IE is
incompatible with the last. That means potentially
writing one webpage for all other browsers, then one
each for each version of IE! And every change in design
would require testing in all versions.

| Never depend on ANY OS or browser to continue to support
| "undoccumented calls" or "undoccumented features"
| A lot of programmers get way to "smart" for their own good.

I don't mean to be harsh, but you're talking way
beyond your expertise here. None of this has
anything to do with undocumented features.
If you don't write graphically complex webpages
by hand then there's no way you could know the
implications of what's changed with IE11/Edge.
For example, VBScript no longer works in IE11.
VBS has been standard and documented ever
since IE4. Microsoft just decided to remove
support for it as of IE11. They also removed
support for the IE document object model. That's
to say that the actual script code, whether VBS
or javascript, can no longer be written in accord
with the language as officially defined and
documented by Microsoft since IE4. A few versions
back that was the *only* way it could be coded.
It will work in IE10 compatibility mode, but that
means writing different webpages for different IE
versions, as noted above, because IE10 mode is
not going to display the same way as quirks mode,
IE8 mode, IE 9 mode, etc.

Every situation we have run accross with web pages that did not work
properly in IE11 have been solved by using compatability mode.

Even those that were just way too fancy and complicated than they
needed to be.

Taking the browser out of the equasion completely, many of these pages
would be totally useless on a dialup or slow network connection to
start with.. Web designers as a "breed" tend to totally over-design
web pages, adding complexity only because they can. The ability to
"enhance" the page has totally outstripped the need, and the ability
of the majority to access the content reliably.

Quirks or not.

It's complicated and I expect few people really
care about the details. But the long and the short
of it is that Microsoft has made a calamity of IE
for over 15 years now. It's a bit like the way
refrigerators are made these days. With Firefox,
Chrome, Safari it's like a refrigerator that's put
together with only #2 phillips head screws. So
you only need one tool to fix dozens of refrigerator
types. The version doesn't matter. They've always
been made that way. Internet Explorer is like a
typical refrigerator: One screw is phillips. Another
is a hex head. Another is a torx head. Then there
might be 3 sizes of square drive. You have to have
a big toolbox to work on it. Now imagine that they
also change several of those screws on each model,
in a vaguely defined attempt to become more
standardized. So now you have no idea what you'll
find if you go to fix a frig. You'll need to carry a
big toolbox. That's analogous to what Microsoft
has done with IE. In many respects they did it
with good intentions. But it's nevetheless a big
mess.

And that is also what way too many web designers have done with the
design of the web-pages. Your toolbox is too full of tools that are
incompatible with the refrigerator you are building UNLESS you use a
whole lot of different "screws" etc.

On 02/21/2016 05:48 PM, Muggles wrote:

Our country looks like it' wealthy, but the reality is a good many
regular people are living paycheck to paycheck in debt via credit cards,
and living way about their real means. It takes 2 incomes to just make
ends meet and sometimes that still isn't enough because the people are
underemployed, and a few paychecks from losing what they do have.

It's a ruse and slight of hand, imo. SOME people are genuinely wealthy,
but, I don't think that's really significant enough to say our country
is wealthy.



You are right, most people are not wealthy but there a lot of Americans
who are enormously so. The ultra rich could kick in a few percent of
their wealth and they'd never miss it.


That said: throwing money at a problem is not much more than a bandage
because if a person lacks the motivation to make something of
themselves, it's not going to do any good.


The NPO where my wife and I volunteered obtained most of their funds
through private donations. Unfortunately, the people who were supposed
to be running the organization could barely do so because most of their
time was spent just raising money to keep the doors open.


I saw a number of hopeless people totally turn their life around and get
jobs which brought in taxable income. Sure not all became highly
successful, but most made some type of improvement in their lives.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:46:21 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

I like to use computers. I like to use my cars. But, I don't care to
be tinkering under the hood with either.

My bride is not interested in how computers work. I get to make it run
and operate and function the way that makes her happy

On 2/21/2016 7:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:46:21 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

I like to use computers. I like to use my cars. But, I don't care to
be tinkering under the hood with either.

My bride is not interested in how computers work. I get to make it run
and operate and function the way that makes her happy


My bride will not let me tinker with her machines. She has a contract
with Best Buy's Geek squad. Fine by me. Same for her car.

Besides guys in their seventies are not as comfortable crawling under
desks or cars anymore.

On 02/21/2016 02:37 PM, wrote:
IE9 was a disaster, from what I remember.

IE8 was. We have an application that uses JavaScript client side as JSP
on the server. The JavaScript engine in the earlier IE iterations was so
poor it would take 25 to 30 seconds to render a page that was almost
instantaneous on Chrome or Firefox. The Chakra engine in IE9 was better
and has been improved over the years. With many sites now using
Javascript extensively both server and client side they have to do
something even if they are allergic to anything with 'java' in the name.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 19:31:02 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

On 2/21/2016 7:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:46:21 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

I like to use computers. I like to use my cars. But, I don't care to
be tinkering under the hood with either.

My bride is not interested in how computers work. I get to make it run
and operate and function the way that makes her happy


My bride will not let me tinker with her machines. She has a contract
with Best Buy's Geek squad. Fine by me. Same for her car.

Besides guys in their seventies are not as comfortable crawling under
desks or cars anymore.

Guys in their seventies can't tinker with bride machine anymore, I
hear.

On 02/21/2016 02:44 PM, wrote:
What bothers me more than Win10 is the blasted new extended bios
(UEFI?) that Microsoft has required all OEMs to implement before being
licenced to distribute anything from Win8.0 on.

What a pain that stupidity can be!!!!

That may have been part of Ballmer's war on Linux as anything.
Fortunately the Linux distros soon were able to cope with it.

On 02/21/2016 03:07 PM, wrote:
Never depend on ANY OS or browser to continue to support
"undoccumented calls" or "undoccumented features"
A lot of programmers get way to "smart" for their own good.


Cygwin has had that problem. They used an undocumented variable in
ntdll.dll and MS kept moving the cheese.

otoh, some are too anal. That was the death of XHTML. It was a noble
ambition but with millions of HTML documents that weren't legal XHTML it
didn't attract support. If anything HTML5 is even more forgiving.

On 2/21/2016 7:20 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 02/21/2016 03:07 PM, wrote:
Never depend on ANY OS or browser to continue to support
"undoccumented calls" or "undoccumented features"
A lot of programmers get way to "smart" for their own good.


Cygwin has had that problem. They used an undocumented variable in
ntdll.dll and MS kept moving the cheese.

otoh, some are too anal. That was the death of XHTML. It was a noble
ambition but with millions of HTML documents that weren't legal XHTML it
didn't attract support. If anything HTML5 is even more forgiving.



I like html old school, like. Code by hand w/o any templates.

--
Maggie

On 02/21/2016 03:14 PM, wrote:
Of course - it is a "Norton" product. More specifically it is a
Symantec product - they have managed to take virtually every excellent
product line they have absorbed and turn it into an unmitigated
disaster in 2 revisions or less.

We had the mistaken impression that some clients were using Norton
Security so we installed it on a couple of machines for testing. That
was strictly the consumer version from Aunt Emily who doesn't have a
clue and needs to be protected from the cold, cruel world.

Symantec Endpoint is actually what out clients tend to use. As such, we
give them a list of directories that need to be excluded from the scans.
Still, Symantec sometimes quarantines a few of our executables and we
have to submit a request for them to keep their paws off.

McAfee is even worse. A little searching will turn up a video by John
McAfee that leaves no doubt about what he thinks of the mess they've
turned it into. Peter Norton isn't as **** house crazy as McAfee but I'd
imaging he has a few juicy comments about his namesake.

| The ability to
| "enhance" the page has totally outstripped
| the need, and the ability
| of the majority to access the content reliably.

| Quirks or not.

.....

| You'll need to carry a
| big toolbox. That's analogous to what Microsoft
| has done with IE. In many respects they did it
| with good intentions. But it's nevetheless a big
| mess.
|
| And that is also what way too many web designers have done with the
| design of the web-pages. Your toolbox is too full of tools that are
| incompatible with the refrigerator you are building UNLESS you use a
| whole lot of different "screws" etc.

Your talking nonsense and hearsay. And
you've completely misinterpreted my analogy.
As usual, you just have to be the expert, even
when you don't know anything about the topic.

Yes, many webpages are overproduced.
Some pages now use 1/4 MB of javascript.
But that has nothing to do with the problems
of IE. And you know nothing about my
"toolbox".

My webpages are all lean and coded by
hand with no need for script, ActiveX,
Flash, JSON, HTML5, or anything else
other than vanilla HTML and CSS that's
been supported for many years. Nothing
"cutting edge". Nothing overly complex.

I use a little script in my pages for IE
only because older versions of IE don't
support the CSS that all other browsers
have supported for many years. My pages
for all other browsers have no script. All of
my pages work perfectly in every version
of every browser currently in use, except
for IE11 and Edge. To support those would
take a lot of work. For you to tell me I'm
mistaken about that, when you don't even
know anything about webpage coding or
browser differences, is beyond ridiculous.

You may be finding all pages work fine
in IE11. That's fine if it's working for you.
It really depends, though, on what sites
you visit. And a browser that "always works
if we use compatibility mode" is hardly a
good browser. No one should need that.
There's no compatibility mode in Firefox.
It just works.

Speak of the devil.... I just came across this:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...icrosoft-stock

http://www.infoworld.com/article/303...-defaults.html

Yet another forced Win10 update that's making unwanted
changes, this time setting default programs to Microsoft
versions for many people. And yet another case of Microsoft
claiming they didn't actually mean for it to do that. It appears
to be the Facebook strategy: Make changes, then backtrack
*if necessary*.

On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 5:31:22 PM UTC-7, Frank wrote:
On 2/21/2016 7:15 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 18:46:21 -0500, Frank "frank wrote:

I like to use computers. I like to use my cars. But, I don't care to
be tinkering under the hood with either.

My bride is not interested in how computers work. I get to make it run
and operate and function the way that makes her happy


My bride will not let me tinker with her machines. She has a contract
with Best Buy's Geek squad. Fine by me. Same for her car.

Besides guys in their seventies are not as comfortable crawling under
desks or cars anymore.

The getting down and crawling isn't so bad...its the getting up that is the problem.
====