On 2/20/2016 6:46 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]


Win10 is fine. They are being spied on constantly by all the apps
they are using on their smart phones. I can't believe the hysteria
that has been created over win10 "spying".

"Homeless teens". I.e., no job, no (formal) place to live. They have
"reagan phones" (free) -- no smart capabilities.

On 2/20/2016 6:52 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 06:25 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 4:23 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 03:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 1:16 PM, philo wrote:
Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally
disabled, so
if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.

How do I create a table heading that spans two columns?
How do I set the shading for every other row to be light/dark?
How do I import this photo that I downloaded from Wikipedia
into my report?
How do I print JUST page 3 of my report?
How do I connect to the printer that my host/foster family has
installed at their house?

None of the above can be accomplished by Windows or Linux on their
own, all
that kind of stuff is dependent on which application you are using.

Exactly. The OS is just a scaffolding.

Now, how do I run Office 2K13 on Linux?

Never figured kids would need much more than a word processor.
I had no idea you were talking about running spread sheets which I thought was
college level.

Schools now do *lots* of stuff on machines that was previously
done with scraps of paper, index cards, etc. Many school districts
even provide "courseware" (what we grew up calling BOOKS) in
electronic form. So, you have to be able to support whatever DRM the
courseware provider has adopted.

Microsoft Office will need to run on Windows machines and will cost quite bit
of money. I thought you just had a small budget, but if you have a lot of
money then sure, get Win10 machines and all necessary software.

Microsoft makes available certain pieces of software to 501(c)3's
for peanuts. No doubt, they write off the difference between the few
dollars they charge (us) for a volume license against the list
price for that same software license.

(you get no media -- just a *single* master disk and a number written
on a form telling you that you are legally entitled to install the
software using *that* license key on N machines)

That said, even if you have a large budget, why waste money?

You should easily be able to purchase a new machine with Win10 installed, for
less money than you could build yourself and purchase the OS separately.

We get machines for free. Businesses go through periodic "upgrade
cycles". So, you may end up with 50 of a particular machine. Or,
20 of one type and 40 of another. The next donation may be of
an entirely different machine, etc.

(Many of businesses have *thousands* of seats so there is no shortage of
HARDWARE. Some businesses are obligated to dispose of their surplus
equipment *to* non-profits -- that's the case with some of the hospitals,
here... a few thousand seats going up for grabs every few years!)

But, you ("I") have to do all your own record keeping. I.e., I have
to keep track of which machines have which software, which drivers, etc.
I have a large collection of "install disks" as each was intended for
a particular make/model machine.

Once I have built a system, I image the disk and store that image on
a server, here. So, if I encounter ANOTHER batch of those same machines
next week/month, I don't have to do any of this legwork, again!

It's for that very reason that I rarely build machines any more, I just refer
my friends to Dell. Thus far, zero complaints/

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:57:19 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
| hours?
| What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
| on mine???

I was going to refer you to the article, but when
I went to look I saw it had been deleted! Sorry about
that. I didn't know I was sending you to a stripped
link. When I looked up the user link it claimed that
user had never made any submissions. I then went
to archive.org for a copy. They had one, but said
the machine that serves it is down:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160211...omments/835741
Weird. I always save such things, because URLs are
often altered or moved. But I also found an archive
linked from the comments on that page. It explains
how the whole thing was done:

https://archive.is/QFL8e

He has some sort of customized router and installed
Win10 on VirtualBox, on Linux Mint, so that he could
track all activity. The problem with tracking it from
Win10 itself is that Windows can no longer be trusted.
Some IP addresses are now hard-coded, so that a
DNS lookup is not even needed. (That actually started
many years ago with Windows Media Player.)

To the extent that it might be possible to catch
some of the traffic, you could try TCPView from
sysinternals. You might also try a firewall. But that's
tricky. The firewall would depend on Windows networking
functionality, and most are not detailed enough to
tell you what's going out, much less what the data is.

I think there are other utilities to record the actual
data going in and out, but I've never tried anything
like that.

Until I can see exactly what the guy supposedly used to log the
activity, I put very little stock in what he said.

| Until I can see exactly what the guy supposedly used to log the
| activity, I put very little stock in what he said.

It's at the link. Did you read it? In any case,
it's up to you what you want to think about
Win10. But if you think it's not spyware you're
fooling yourself. Microsoft even says in their
terms that some data sent back to them is not
optional.

On 2/20/2016 3:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:14:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/20/2016 9:50 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a cash-poor NPO, I
set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.

The problem is that these kids are still in "primary school".
So, they aren't likely to encounter other users -- nor the
computers to which they have access at school, public libraries,
etc. -- who can help them with non-Windows issues.

[One school district has standardized on Mac's; I don't deal with
their students -- only so many hours in a day that I can share
between *my* needs and those of charities : ]

I typically have to address dozens of different make/models *and*
somehow keep track of what I've done (so I can repeat the exercise
when/if someone else donates an identical/similar machine!)

So, there's a lot of effort (i.e., my unpaid time) that is involved
in researching each donation, chasing down the appropriate drivers
(or, "restore disks" from the manufacturer), removing cruft that
shouldn't be there (e.g., manufacturers often install "sample ware"
that expires in 60/90 days and just proves to be a nuisance, thereafter;
so, remove it BEFORE the student even encounters it!), configuring
basic settings...

*Then*, tweeking the machine so the student can "self-restore" the
image (even if the machine itself doesn't provide that option).

When I first started doing this, I naively expected the users to be
somewhat competent and protective of their machine (freebie!).
I quickly discovered that they were not! Machines would come back
within a month, "broken": "I don't know what happened. It just
stopped working!"


The secret is NOBODY gets a "free" computer.
Make them put some effort into getting one.- even if it's a dollar and
acheiving a scholastic goal, or X hours of "community service".
Something they can afford - but something that equates to some
effort/sacrifice on their part. Then things get taken care of.

Something that has no cost has no value to many people.

Exactly!

--
Maggie

On 2/20/2016 8:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

On 02/20/2016 08:04 PM, Don Y wrote:



snip



Now that you've stated all the facts, I'd just go ahead and use Win 10


Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html


Plenty more out there.


I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't
really used , so I am not concerned with spying

On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 4:47:28 AM UTC-6, mike wrote:

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

Intellectuals can't deal with the obvious...

On 02/21/2016 07:34 AM, bob_villain wrote:
On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 4:47:28 AM UTC-6, mike wrote:

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

Intellectuals can't deal with the obvious...




+ 100000000000

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 18:46:47 -0700, "Ashton Crusher"
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]


Win10 is fine. They are being spied on constantly by all the apps
they are using on their smart phones. I can't believe the hysteria
that has been created over win10 "spying".

I have no problem with Win10. I can't imagine the so-called "spying"
affecting me. You can easily make it "look like" Win7. So you don't
see any effect of it "spying."
I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.
Win10 is more robust than Win7 in my experience. Fewer hangs
and hard resets.
It also installs faster and has a smaller footprint.

On 2/21/2016 3:46 AM, mike wrote:
On 2/20/2016 8:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

You can often *find* homes for them -- friends, extended family,
other charitable programs, etc. But, in most cases, they will
leave school before graduation. Then you end up with a
"less than productive" member of society.

Last time I checked, "homes" were pretty expensive. For
the monies spent keeping ~800 kids in school "for another
year", you might be able to build 20 homes (assuming you got
the land and labor for free). If you're just interested
in *renting* space for them, maybe put 200 of them into "low rent"
units?

Then, who's going to heat/cool/electrify/maintain those homes?
And, feed them?

And, does having a home keep the kid in school? Or, force him
into the workforce so he can pay his utilities, upkeep, etc.?

Of course, if you're willing to donate ~$4M/year, then those 800
kids could stay in school AND have a place to call their own.

That's the problem when you look at a problem superficially;
you convince yourself that you've got a solution when, in fact,
you've just changed the problem (now you have post-teens
wondering how they will be able to afford to live without
an education! Simple: just keep the $4M donations coming
indefinitely -- for each group of 800 "young people" : )

Hi Frank,

On 2/20/2016 3:41 PM, Frank wrote:
On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

I had to turn off several privacy settings that were either intrusive or
collected data taking an extra minute to shut down.

What happens if you're "offline"? What happens if you STAY
offline? (i.e., is there a point where it simply refuses
to operate? Or, is there likely to *be* a point where it
refuses to operate unless it can "get a cookie" from it's
masters??)

My only disappointment with Win 10 was their taking off several time wasting
games and making you go to their ap store to get them for free.
Not super intrusive but you will get a pop up ad at the end of the game and
they tell you you can make it ad free by paying $1.49 a month.

I think Apple and Android are in the up sale business and MS has joined them.
Future software upgrades will be free but won't be free of them trying to up
sell you aps.

I tend to avoid ads (in my browser as well as what I consciously set my
eyes on). I don't buy the whole "we're trying to improve YOUR user
experience argument: if you'd wanted to do that, you'd make the
product more secure, less buggy, more responsive, etc. -- not push
advertising at me (for things you THINK that I might be interested in).

So, I'm suspicious of folks using that sort of logic to market a
*free* OS to me (or, in this case, to the kids that I'll be serving).

OTOH, this may just be "the way its going to be", going forward.

Sad that the FOSS community wastes so much time adding features
and tweeking performance instead of concentrating on offering
a reliable, stable product that could compete. But, so long
as you've got folks fixated on stroking their own sense of
*personal* accomplishment -- instead of addressing that need -- then
the trend will never change (a mindset is a tough thing to shake)

Otherwise I'm happy with Win 10 and have not had any serious issues since
starting to use it.

I'm sure MS is watching the numbers and won't get Draconian until they know
their users have no choice. The fact that they track how long you are
*in* windows suggests a "usage billing" option may be in the cards for
the future -- like "minutes" and "data" on your cell phone.

Maybe *that* will be what's needed to kill the kitty videos? :

| I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.

You've said that before. Be patient.

Hi Vic,

On 2/21/2016 6:53 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Win10 is fine. They are being spied on constantly by all the apps
they are using on their smart phones. I can't believe the hysteria
that has been created over win10 "spying".

I have no problem with Win10. I can't imagine the so-called "spying"
affecting me. You can easily make it "look like" Win7. So you don't
see any effect of it "spying."
I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.

Do they guarantee you won't see them in the future? Or, that they
won't gleefully share whatever they collect (odd that they are
so unwilling to share the details of that, eh?) with the spooks,
other marketeers?

Win10 is more robust than Win7 in my experience. Fewer hangs
and hard resets.

I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista (never played with
the 8's). E.g., *this* machine is "up" for months at a time,
toggling between "user1" and "user2" without ever logging off either
of them. I tried 7even on one of my workstations and found that it
was noticeably more "sluggish" (not in terms of getting work *done*
but, rather, getting work *started*).

[I don't upgrade just for the sake of upgrading -- as it invariably
costs me some *capability*, in addition to lots of TIME! So, for
me, it's always a question of "What is this going to GIVE me that
I don't already *have*?" I've not seen anything in that column that
has been sufficient to pull me off the XP platform (and W2KS before
that)]

I have a desktop publishing program installed on a 7even laptop and
it regularly "hangs" (shows a "busy" cursor and becomes unresponsive).
Hard to imagine what would be "confusing" it in a program that
just processes text and illustrations! Esp when that program
NEVER hangs in years of use under XP/W2KS!

It also installs faster and has a smaller footprint.

I don't really care about how long it takes to install -- as
that's a one-time task (and, hopefully, I can clone the disk
like I've been able to do previously for additional machines
of the same make/model). Smaller footprint would be nice as
it would lessen the demands on the donated hardware (I've
got a dozen full-size towers that will be scrapped because
they don't meet 7even's minimum requirements; pull disks and
RAM and scrap the rest! Unfortunate but they'd be bad
candidates for the students simply because of their size)

On 2/21/2016 3:46 AM, philo wrote:
Now that you've stated all the facts, I'd just go ahead and use Win 10

I don't see that I have much choice in the matter. If 7even was at
EOL, then I'd repeat my XP approach: install ALL the updates and
then disable the update mechanism. I.e., "this is as good as it's
going to get".

But, as MS doesn't truly BUILD on past products (i.e., so each
has NONE of the flaws of its predecessors) but, rather, likes
to keep reinventing the (buggy) wheel, I imagine 10 will be
years getting to "stable" -- esp when effort is diverted from
providing stability and robustness in favor of "spying" and
countering anti-spying techniques!

[There is often an issue of protecting IP from theft in my business.
You're always faced with the question of "how much of my resources
do I want to devote to safeguarding my IP -- preventing theft
and/or counterfeiting -- and what would be the relative value of
spending those resources making a BETTER PRODUCT"?]

Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html

Plenty more out there.

If all they are doing is tweeking registry settings, then a good
article is just as effective for me. And, one less piece of
software that I'd have to install and maintain.

I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't really used
, so I am not concerned with spying

On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 8:13:25 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 3:46 AM, mike wrote:
On 2/20/2016 8:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

You can often *find* homes for them -- friends, extended family,
other charitable programs, etc. But, in most cases, they will
leave school before graduation. Then you end up with a
"less than productive" member of society.

Last time I checked, "homes" were pretty expensive. For
the monies spent keeping ~800 kids in school "for another
year", you might be able to build 20 homes (assuming you got
the land and labor for free). If you're just interested
in *renting* space for them, maybe put 200 of them into "low rent"
units?

Then, who's going to heat/cool/electrify/maintain those homes?
And, feed them?

And, does having a home keep the kid in school? Or, force him
into the workforce so he can pay his utilities, upkeep, etc.?

Of course, if you're willing to donate ~$4M/year, then those 800
kids could stay in school AND have a place to call their own.

That's the problem when you look at a problem superficially;
you convince yourself that you've got a solution when, in fact,
you've just changed the problem (now you have post-teens
wondering how they will be able to afford to live without
an education! Simple: just keep the $4M donations coming
indefinitely -- for each group of 800 "young people" : )

Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck, those FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Homey Monster

On 2/20/2016 7:23 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 17:57:19 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
| hours?
| What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
| on mine???

I was going to refer you to the article, but when
I went to look I saw it had been deleted! Sorry about
that. I didn't know I was sending you to a stripped
link. When I looked up the user link it claimed that
user had never made any submissions. I then went
to archive.org for a copy. They had one, but said
the machine that serves it is down:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160211...omments/835741
Weird. I always save such things, because URLs are
often altered or moved. But I also found an archive
linked from the comments on that page. It explains
how the whole thing was done:

https://archive.is/QFL8e

He has some sort of customized router and installed
Win10 on VirtualBox, on Linux Mint, so that he could
track all activity. The problem with tracking it from
Win10 itself is that Windows can no longer be trusted.
Some IP addresses are now hard-coded, so that a
DNS lookup is not even needed. (That actually started
many years ago with Windows Media Player.)

To the extent that it might be possible to catch
some of the traffic, you could try TCPView from
sysinternals. You might also try a firewall. But that's
tricky. The firewall would depend on Windows networking
functionality, and most are not detailed enough to
tell you what's going out, much less what the data is.

I think there are other utilities to record the actual
data going in and out, but I've never tried anything
like that.

Until I can see exactly what the guy supposedly used to log the
activity, I put very little stock in what he said.

Put a cheap router between you and your network connection.
Mine will log all incoming/outgoing accepted/rejected
connections, SYN flood attempts, PoD attempts, etc.

Attempts are logged in the form:
protocol sourceIP.port - destinationIP.port on interface
and tagged "Connection accepted" or "Connection refused"

For outbound connections, sourceIP is one of the IP's served by
the router while destinationIP is something foreign. The roles
reverse for incoming connections.

Unless you are good at remembering the common ports/protocols,
you'll tend to need a log interpreter to explain what each
attempt is likely trying to do.

E.g., my ISP runs some network discovery tools that periodically
(i.e., once a minute) probe specific ports on my connection (these
are blocked by my router so the PC never sees them).

On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]


Makes me wonder how long Microsoft WinSpy10 experiment will last.
How long will corporate America tolerate Windows 10 spying on them?
And is Windows 10 HIPAA compliant?

At least there are Linux distros out there that are HIPAA compliant.

| I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista

I've found that, too. Vista/7 is a brittle system, and
with so many restrictions it's not easy to fix things
that go wrong. I was trying to install IE11 recently
on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
hardly runs anywhere to begin with. Only Win7/8/10
are supported. Yet it wouldn't install.

Win7-32 needed SP1, but that wouldn't install because,
it said, there were problematic customizations. ???
It's an extra laptop that's hardly ever used.

On Win7-64 IE11 kept saying it needed to download
patches first. It was ridiculous that it should *require*
post SP1 patches that are not in the installer. As it
turned out, those patches either weren't relevant or
were already installed. That didn't satisfy IE11. By the
time I was through, Win7 was unstable and a warning on
the Desktop was telling me that it was not "genuine".
(It's a Dell. Windows should have been able to see that.)
I finally ended up reinstalling from a disk image. The sheer
incompetence displayed with that IE11 fiasco is
jaw-dropping. IE10 was similar. I've never managed to
update beyond IE9 on that computer. Not that I care
a great deal. I only want it for testing webpages. But
it's inexcusable that they can't even make their own
browser software install on their own product without
problems.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:47:47 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Hi Vic,

On 2/21/2016 6:53 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

I have no problem with Win10. I can't imagine the so-called "spying"
affecting me. You can easily make it "look like" Win7. So you don't
see any effect of it "spying."
I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.

Do they guarantee you won't see them in the future? Or, that they
won't gleefully share whatever they collect (odd that they are
so unwilling to share the details of that, eh?) with the spooks,
other marketeers?


I've heard *that* before.
No guarantee, but why would they commit suicide?
If I'm on-line, I assume the spooks and marketeers have plenty of
methods of "collecting" my habits without the aid of MS.
So what? I suppose I could distrust Comcast too.

Win10 is more robust than Win7 in my experience. Fewer hangs
and hard resets.

I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista (never played with
the 8's). E.g., *this* machine is "up" for months at a time,
toggling between "user1" and "user2" without ever logging off either
of them. I tried 7even on one of my workstations and found that it
was noticeably more "sluggish" (not in terms of getting work *done*
but, rather, getting work *started*).

[I don't upgrade just for the sake of upgrading -- as it invariably
costs me some *capability*, in addition to lots of TIME! So, for
me, it's always a question of "What is this going to GIVE me that
I don't already *have*?" I've not seen anything in that column that
has been sufficient to pull me off the XP platform (and W2KS before
that)]

I have a desktop publishing program installed on a 7even laptop and
it regularly "hangs" (shows a "busy" cursor and becomes unresponsive).
Hard to imagine what would be "confusing" it in a program that
just processes text and illustrations! Esp when that program
NEVER hangs in years of use under XP/W2KS!


Probably an issue with how the OS handles memory in relation to the
app. I've run into that before.
I'm also resistant to change when the ROI is wrong. But I've had no
issues with Win10. It so happened that I put together a new box when
Win10 came out.

It also installs faster and has a smaller footprint.

I don't really care about how long it takes to install -- as
that's a one-time task (and, hopefully, I can clone the disk
like I've been able to do previously for additional machines
of the same make/model). Smaller footprint would be nice as
it would lessen the demands on the donated hardware (I've
got a dozen full-size towers that will be scrapped because
they don't meet 7even's minimum requirements; pull disks and
RAM and scrap the rest! Unfortunate but they'd be bad
candidates for the students simply because of their size)

Footprint is somewhat important to me because I image quite
often (cold image) and it's less time consuming.
Of course I'm only dealing with home machines.
I can restore this machine in under 5 minutes.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 10:24:32 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:


| I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista

I've found that, too. Vista/7 is a brittle system, and
with so many restrictions it's not easy to fix things
that go wrong. I was trying to install IE11 recently
on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
hardly runs anywhere to begin with.

Hardy anywhere? It has 25% of the browser market.
I use it.

On 02/21/2016 08:54 AM, Don Y wrote:
resources making a BETTER PRODUCT"?]

Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html

Plenty more out there.

If all they are doing is tweeking registry settings, then a good
article is just as effective for me. And, one less piece of
software that I'd have to install and maintain.

I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't
really used
, so I am not concerned with spying




I thought it said it was portable, so you don't have to install it, but
it can tweak the settings a bit faster than if you did so manually.


Anyway there are tons of Google hits with all the info you need

On 2/21/2016 8:31 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:47:47 -0700, Don Y
wrote:
I have no problem with Win10. I can't imagine the so-called "spying"
affecting me. You can easily make it "look like" Win7. So you don't
see any effect of it "spying."
I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.

Do they guarantee you won't see them in the future? Or, that they
won't gleefully share whatever they collect (odd that they are
so unwilling to share the details of that, eh?) with the spooks,
other marketeers?

I've heard *that* before.
No guarantee, but why would they commit suicide?

How is it suicide? If MS decides to charge you by the hour to run
your PC, what options do you have? Try to fish your old PC out
of the trash? Live with unmaintained OS? Learn a FOSS OS??
Even if they aren't the 800 pound gorilla they used to be, they
still are, pretty much, the only game in town! Even if you found a
manufacturer willing to build a machine that used *old*, existing
drivers, you wouldn't legally be able to acquire new (older OS)
licenses to run on that machine!

And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
OS providing a service to you??)

If I'm on-line, I assume the spooks and marketeers have plenty of
methods of "collecting" my habits without the aid of MS.
So what? I suppose I could distrust Comcast too.

I've a friend who claims he has nothing to hide.
I mentioned to him that his bank statements come in envelopes,
instead of on the back of postcards. And, I notice that he picks
them up off the table and "hides them away" before we sit down.
Hmmm... I wonder what he's HIDING??

I am overly sensitive to privacy issues as I see how easy it is
to play the big data game and generalize observed behaviors
("Hey, the 9/11 perps were *all* arabs so we should be suspicious
of arabs!")

In automating the house, I had to think hard about what data I
wanted to risk "leaking" to the outside world. Surely, no one
would care about BATHROOM HABITS! Or, how often the refrigerator
is opened. Or, how much laundry we do.

Or, would they?

Wanna bet that if it was easy for someone to collect this
data, they'd *find* a use for it? Just by running the "big numbers"
and seeing what unexpected patterns emerge! Wanna bet there's a
buttload of information to be had in telephone "metadata"?
No doubt more bang for buck (byte) than in actually listening
to all those calls!

"Gee, this phone only gets used twice a month and always on these
days for about 3 minutes. Isn't that unusual when compared to the
'norm' defined by these hundreds of millions of OTHER phones users??"

Win10 is more robust than Win7 in my experience. Fewer hangs
and hard resets.

I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista (never played with
the 8's). E.g., *this* machine is "up" for months at a time,
toggling between "user1" and "user2" without ever logging off either
of them. I tried 7even on one of my workstations and found that it
was noticeably more "sluggish" (not in terms of getting work *done*
but, rather, getting work *started*).

[I don't upgrade just for the sake of upgrading -- as it invariably
costs me some *capability*, in addition to lots of TIME! So, for
me, it's always a question of "What is this going to GIVE me that
I don't already *have*?" I've not seen anything in that column that
has been sufficient to pull me off the XP platform (and W2KS before
that)]

I have a desktop publishing program installed on a 7even laptop and
it regularly "hangs" (shows a "busy" cursor and becomes unresponsive).
Hard to imagine what would be "confusing" it in a program that
just processes text and illustrations! Esp when that program
NEVER hangs in years of use under XP/W2KS!

Probably an issue with how the OS handles memory in relation to the
app. I've run into that before.

More physical memory in the laptop than in the machine on which I normally
use the tool. Laptop hangs indefinitely. In my book, that's called
a bug. A bug that wasn't present in XP or W2KS. A bug that directly
interferes with my productivity (I have to restart the app -- after
killing it via task manager -- then recreate everything that *it*
lost since my last "backup")

And, I want this behavior because it is offset by WHAT feature,
specifically? :

I'm also resistant to change when the ROI is wrong. But I've had no
issues with Win10. It so happened that I put together a new box when
Win10 came out.

I built an HTPC last month. Installed XP on it. Boots in 30 seconds
and has video available within 10 seconds after that. Would it
be any better with 7even? Or W10? Doubtful.

I've got a LOT invested in software -- both in terms of license costs
and "experience". So, an OS *really* needs to show me that it can do something
THAT I WANT in a better/faster/more accurate/robust/reliable manner than
what I have already.

E.g., it takes me several days to reinstall (from scratch)
everything on *one* of my workstations. Then, a few more
days to install the tools for the *other* (different tools)

It also installs faster and has a smaller footprint.

I don't really care about how long it takes to install -- as
that's a one-time task (and, hopefully, I can clone the disk
like I've been able to do previously for additional machines
of the same make/model). Smaller footprint would be nice as
it would lessen the demands on the donated hardware (I've
got a dozen full-size towers that will be scrapped because
they don't meet 7even's minimum requirements; pull disks and
RAM and scrap the rest! Unfortunate but they'd be bad
candidates for the students simply because of their size)

Footprint is somewhat important to me because I image quite
often (cold image) and it's less time consuming.
Of course I'm only dealing with home machines.
I can restore this machine in under 5 minutes.

I have a shoebox of 80G drives in this desk -- one for each of my
machines. On it are images of the "system" for a particular
machine at different points in the installation process:
- after windows
- after drivers
- after updates
- after basic utilities (WinZIP, PowerToys, UltraISO, EMACS, etc.)
- after basic tools (Acrobat, Tbird, Ffox, etc.)
- after custom tools (whatever the workstation is intended to do)

Each image is compressed so takes very little space, compared to
the original; and, "empty space" doesn't need to be stored in the
image at all!

The real pigs are some of the tools that have huge "libraries".
E.g., my multimedia authoring station has ~250GB of "stuff"
that is useful in creating a MM presentation but takes a
really long time to reinstall.

On the student machines, I create a bogus partition to hold the
image and a special boot script that lets them invoke that
process automatically. That way, they don't have to keep track
of "restore disks" (nor expect *me* to do so!)

But, those images are tiny: the OS, Tbird, FFox, a few utilities
and MSOffice. So, there's little reason NOT to "restore" if something
seems to be wonky.

On 2/21/2016 8:24 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| I found XP to be more robust than 7even or Vista

I've found that, too. Vista/7 is a brittle system, and
with so many restrictions it's not easy to fix things
that go wrong. I was trying to install IE11 recently
on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
hardly runs anywhere to begin with. Only Win7/8/10
are supported. Yet it wouldn't install.

Win7-32 needed SP1, but that wouldn't install because,
it said, there were problematic customizations. ???
It's an extra laptop that's hardly ever used.

On Win7-64 IE11 kept saying it needed to download
patches first. It was ridiculous that it should *require*
post SP1 patches that are not in the installer. As it
turned out, those patches either weren't relevant or
were already installed. That didn't satisfy IE11. By the
time I was through, Win7 was unstable and a warning on
the Desktop was telling me that it was not "genuine".
(It's a Dell. Windows should have been able to see that.)
I finally ended up reinstalling from a disk image. The sheer
incompetence displayed with that IE11 fiasco is
jaw-dropping. IE10 was similar. I've never managed to
update beyond IE9 on that computer. Not that I care
a great deal. I only want it for testing webpages. But
it's inexcusable that they can't even make their own
browser software install on their own product without
problems.

In my case, I have tens of $K invested in software.
I don't want to "have to update" JUST BECAUSE THE OS
DOESN'T WANT TO "play nice" -- with a program that has
been working JUST FINE on an earlier OS.

That's a waste of money (buying a new license), time
(installing the new version), experience (RE-learning
a product that has been working fine) AND potential
risk (how many new bugs will I have to discover??).

"What is this going to *buy* me? Why do I want to take
on those COSTS if there isn't something to offset it??"

Granted, some apps work better in a 64b playing field.
So, I'll install them -- and JUST THEM -- on a 64b machine!
No need to bear the costs for moving all of these other
apps that are perfectly happy (and already configured!)
where they are!

Does having multiple cores help me write prose faster?
Will it help me come up with an engineering solution
faster ("meatware accelerator")? Does moving the start
menu to a different place make me more productive
(esp if you reflect the cost of adjusting to that change)?
Or, supporting transparency in the window manager??

Or, is all of this just "change for the sake of change"?

On 2/21/2016 9:00 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2016 08:54 AM, Don Y wrote:
resources making a BETTER PRODUCT"?]

Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html

Plenty more out there.

If all they are doing is tweeking registry settings, then a good
article is just as effective for me. And, one less piece of
software that I'd have to install and maintain.

I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't
really used
, so I am not concerned with spying

I thought it said it was portable, so you don't have to install it, but it can
tweak the settings a bit faster than if you did so manually.

I like to KNOW what a tool is doing. And, once I "make the adjustment"
the first time, the changes (along with the rest of the installed
software) will just be cloned onto new machines. So, you
only "save" once.

I build a log file that documents all of the steps that I take when creating
a machine. "Install this", "configure that", etc. Any registry
settings are included in the log file in a way that I can just
copy them into a FOO.REG file and install them from there. Then,
delete FOO.REG. Omits typing and reduces chance of typographical
errors.

Also lets you (me) see what is being done -- instead of HOPING
everything has been done.

Anyway there are tons of Google hits with all the info you need

On 2/21/2016 8:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that
could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck, those
FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

Again, the "home" is just a symptom of the problem.
These kids have lost their original support systems.
Single parent, drugs, abuse, incarceration, etc. so they've
LEFT those environments ("Anything has got to be BETTER
than this!")

There are lots of places where they can get a roof over
their heads -- even if only tenuously. But, they need
encouragement and support to stay in school so *they* don't
end up as "societal refuse" -- contributing little and
requiring (support, crime, incarceration, etc.) much!

Do you expect their *teachers* to fill the role that their
parents haven't? Or, expect them to cling to others (of the
opposite sex!) in similar situations (and baby makes three)?

Expecting a "home" (housing) to solve the problem is akin to
outlawing guns to solve the "gun problem"! Or, outlawing
drugs to solve the "drug problem". It's too naive.

On 2/21/2016 10:30 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 8:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that
could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck,
those
FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

Again, the "home" is just a symptom of the problem.
These kids have lost their original support systems.
Single parent, drugs, abuse, incarceration, etc. so they've
LEFT those environments ("Anything has got to be BETTER
than this!")

There are lots of places where they can get a roof over
their heads -- even if only tenuously. But, they need
encouragement and support to stay in school so *they* don't
end up as "societal refuse" -- contributing little and
requiring (support, crime, incarceration, etc.) much!

Do you expect their *teachers* to fill the role that their
parents haven't? Or, expect them to cling to others (of the
opposite sex!) in similar situations (and baby makes three)?

Expecting a "home" (housing) to solve the problem is akin to
outlawing guns to solve the "gun problem"! Or, outlawing
drugs to solve the "drug problem". It's too naive.

Maybe, a solution is combining multiple efforts.

--
Maggie

| I was trying to install IE11 recently
| on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
| to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
| hardly runs anywhere to begin with.
|
| Hardy anywhere? It has 25% of the browser market.
| I use it.
|

You have my sympathy.

IE has anywhere from 10% to 50% share, depending on
who you ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...f_web_browsers

But that's IE, not IE11. IE11 can only run on Win7/8/10.
It won't install on XP. (Win10 only recently passed XP
in usage. XP is still popular. So not being able to run IE11
on XP is a rather pitiful statement about Microsoft.)
And it won't install on any other operating system. Given
that Microsoft can only manage to get it to run on 7/8/10,
I don't think it's too much to ask that the install should
be smooth.

The reason I wanted to test with IE11 was because MS
broke compatibility in a big way with IE11 and Edge. They've
broken most of the technologies that worked in IE4-10.
I wanted to see how my own website pages would work.
It turned out they don't work at all and would require a total,
complex rewrite if I want to support IE11/Edge. Not only
would they need to be rewritten, but IE11/Edge no longer
support "quirks mode", which allowed one to write webpages
that would look the same in IE5 to IE10. Without quirks
mode each version of IE is incompatible with the rest and
each needs its own special code exceptions in order to
display properly.

Given the scale of such a task, I decided,
instead, to just show an apology/error page for IE11/Edge.
That page suggests that the visitor use another
browser or, if that's not possible and they're desperate,
that they disable style and reload the page. I get an average
of about 400 unique visitors on a weekday. Of those, I
estimate 250-300 may be real people. Altogether I'm seeing
about 3-10 visitors per day using IE11 or Edge. Nearly all
of those are using IE11 on Win7. (Probably a third of those
reload the page in another browser within seconds, indicating
that they don't depend on IE.) My site is mainly geared
toward Windows "power users", scripters, programmers
and IT people. Given all that, I'd say that IE11 is not a
big factor online. Non-techie people don't generally update
things. Techie people know better than to use IE online.
So the people actually using IE11 are mostly Microsoft
fans who are somewhat handy.

On 2/21/2016 8:17 AM, Foster wrote:
On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Makes me wonder how long Microsoft WinSpy10 experiment will last.

I suspect that is the way things will be, going forward.

How long will corporate America tolerate Windows 10 spying on them?
And is Windows 10 HIPAA compliant?

At least there are Linux distros out there that are HIPAA compliant.

Corporate world is a different beast. I.e., you can declare,
"by edict", that "Thou shalt use XYZ". You also tend to have
some folks on staff whose sole reason for being there is to "make
it happen" -- whatever "it" may be!

Also, MS is probably less interested in what happens at work;
it's a lot harder to track *who* is doing *what*. And, their
motivations for doing so then come into play (is he looking
for X as a genuine work-related need? Or, something personal
that he's doing on the company's dime?)

Also, most of the "normal computer uses" that happen in a
typical workplace can be easily redirected to a small set of
applications supplied by a *different* vendor (e.g., FOSS).
So, you can standardize your "workstations" (user environment).

Here, I much prefer operating with my applications running on a
"server" and my "user interface" (display/keyboard/mouse)
being much leaner and more portable. Unfortunately, that doesn't
work for Windows apps...

[unless I serve them up over VNC]

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 09:09:36 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/21/2016 8:31 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 07:47:47 -0700, Don Y
wrote:
I have no problem with Win10. I can't imagine the so-called "spying"
affecting me. You can easily make it "look like" Win7. So you don't
see any effect of it "spying."
I see zero ads. That's zip, zilch, nada ads.

Do they guarantee you won't see them in the future? Or, that they
won't gleefully share whatever they collect (odd that they are
so unwilling to share the details of that, eh?) with the spooks,
other marketeers?

I've heard *that* before.
No guarantee, but why would they commit suicide?

How is it suicide? If MS decides to charge you by the hour to run
your PC, what options do you have? Try to fish your old PC out
of the trash? Live with unmaintained OS? Learn a FOSS OS??
Even if they aren't the 800 pound gorilla they used to be, they
still are, pretty much, the only game in town! Even if you found a
manufacturer willing to build a machine that used *old*, existing
drivers, you wouldn't legally be able to acquire new (older OS)
licenses to run on that machine!

And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
OS providing a service to you??)


Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?
Because they're benevolent? Because they're generous?
Why on earth don't they charge by the hour or minute of use?
You tell me. I say it would be suicide. Linux would then become
the main consumer operating system. Free.
And MS could no longer sell an OS to the masses, as it now does.

If I'm on-line, I assume the spooks and marketeers have plenty of
methods of "collecting" my habits without the aid of MS.
So what? I suppose I could distrust Comcast too.

I've a friend who claims he has nothing to hide.
I mentioned to him that his bank statements come in envelopes,
instead of on the back of postcards. And, I notice that he picks
them up off the table and "hides them away" before we sit down.
Hmmm... I wonder what he's HIDING??

I am overly sensitive to privacy issues as I see how easy it is
to play the big data game and generalize observed behaviors
("Hey, the 9/11 perps were *all* arabs so we should be suspicious
of arabs!")

In automating the house, I had to think hard about what data I
wanted to risk "leaking" to the outside world. Surely, no one
would care about BATHROOM HABITS! Or, how often the refrigerator
is opened. Or, how much laundry we do.

Or, would they?

Wanna bet that if it was easy for someone to collect this
data, they'd *find* a use for it? Just by running the "big numbers"
and seeing what unexpected patterns emerge! Wanna bet there's a
buttload of information to be had in telephone "metadata"?
No doubt more bang for buck (byte) than in actually listening
to all those calls!

"Gee, this phone only gets used twice a month and always on these
days for about 3 minutes. Isn't that unusual when compared to the
'norm' defined by these hundreds of millions of OTHER phones users??"


Did you ever get your walls painted with anti-RF paint?

snip

Probably an issue with how the OS handles memory in relation to the
app. I've run into that before.

More physical memory in the laptop than in the machine on which I normally
use the tool. Laptop hangs indefinitely. In my book, that's called
a bug. A bug that wasn't present in XP or W2KS. A bug that directly
interferes with my productivity (I have to restart the app -- after
killing it via task manager -- then recreate everything that *it*
lost since my last "backup")


I had an app (Ghost) that hung doing a simple directory look-up on a
machine after I added 8gb of memory. It never hung until I added the
8 gig. At first I thought it was a permanent hang, but found that it
took a full 2 minutes to resolve its answer. Every time.
I quit using it when I found a suitable replacement.

And, I want this behavior because it is offset by WHAT feature,
specifically? :

I'm also resistant to change when the ROI is wrong. But I've had no
issues with Win10. It so happened that I put together a new box when
Win10 came out.

I built an HTPC last month. Installed XP on it. Boots in 30 seconds
and has video available within 10 seconds after that. Would it
be any better with 7even? Or W10? Doubtful.


Well, my Win10 machine boots in 25 seconds. So there. (-:

I've got a LOT invested in software -- both in terms of license costs
and "experience". So, an OS *really* needs to show me that it can do something
THAT I WANT in a better/faster/more accurate/robust/reliable manner than
what I have already.

E.g., it takes me several days to reinstall (from scratch)
everything on *one* of my workstations. Then, a few more
days to install the tools for the *other* (different tools)


I never reinstall anything. Just recover an image.

snip

I have a shoebox of 80G drives in this desk -- one for each of my
machines. On it are images of the "system" for a particular
machine at different points in the installation process:
- after windows
- after drivers
- after updates
- after basic utilities (WinZIP, PowerToys, UltraISO, EMACS, etc.)
- after basic tools (Acrobat, Tbird, Ffox, etc.)
- after custom tools (whatever the workstation is intended to do)

Each image is compressed so takes very little space, compared to
the original; and, "empty space" doesn't need to be stored in the
image at all!

The real pigs are some of the tools that have huge "libraries".
E.g., my multimedia authoring station has ~250GB of "stuff"
that is useful in creating a MM presentation but takes a
really long time to reinstall.


Yes, that's a lot of data to install. But I would image it at today's
HD/SSD prices.

| And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
| minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
| OS providing a service to you??)
|
|
| Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?

They are doing it. Office 365 is subscription by the
month. Adobe has gone the same way with Creative
Suite. They pretend the programs are online "cloud apps"
to justify subscription, but they install locally just like
anything else. Subscription is what this whole thing
is about. It's the reason for free Win10 updates from 7/8.

Why Office 365 and CS? Because those are monopoly
products that are critical to business. They can afford
to get a bit pushy. Your Windows PC itself may end up
being subscription at some point. Like an addicted
Facebookie complaining about ads and spying, it will
probably be too late for you to pull yourself away at
that point. That's because they won't do it until it *is*
at that point.

Microsoft started with ads in the OS and attempts at
online services way back in Win98. They've been very
gradually pulling the rug out ever since: locking down
options, creating online services, trying to lead people
into those services by pushing them to do things like
get a "Microsoft ID". (And remember Passport before that?
MS was hoping to have a lock on online wallets. The only
problems were that nobody wanted an online wallet and
no one trusted Microsoft.) Vista was originally supposed
to be a locked down system based on .Net. (Look up
"Longhorn".) If it had worked that would have closed
the door to 3rd-party programmers who wanted to have
system access. Only sandboxed software would have
been possible, and MS probably could have started their
online "store" to take a cut of software sales, like they're
now doing with tablet apps.

So Microsoft hasn't taken all this time for lack of
trying. They're constantly cooking up new gimmicks.
But there have been various reasons why it hasn't
worked out for them. One is that they're terrible at
doing services. Another reason is because it's only
recently that Internet speeds are fast enough for
services. And even now, something like MS Word *really*
online is a pipedream. It would be too slow. Another
reason is because Microsoft has lost money on
almost everything they've ever done except their
two monopoly products, Windows and Office. So they
see Apple raking in bucks from suckers with iPhones
and they want a piece of that action. But it's a big
risk for them. Services is not their forte. Only greed
is leading them to forego common sense and push into
a market they don't do well. The trick is to get enough
frogs in pans, like you, who don't realize the heat's
being turned up until they're already cooked.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 12:25:56 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| I was trying to install IE11 recently
| on Win7-64 or on a Win7-32 laptop. I couldn't get it
| to work on either one! Microsoft's own browser, which
| hardly runs anywhere to begin with.
|
| Hardy anywhere? It has 25% of the browser market.
| I use it.
|

You have my sympathy.


For what? I know, I know. I'm being "spied upon."
That's okay. It works very well for me.

IE has anywhere from 10% to 50% share, depending on
who you ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...f_web_browsers

But that's IE, not IE11. IE11 can only run on Win7/8/10.
It won't install on XP. (Win10 only recently passed XP
in usage. XP is still popular. So not being able to run IE11
on XP is a rather pitiful statement about Microsoft.)

Those stats I gave are for IE11. It's all over the net.
Why you use a Wiki with old data as a reference is beyond my ken.
XP is only about 10% of the market now.
But people still drive old cars. My cars are 2003 and 1995.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 13:42:07 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
| minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
| OS providing a service to you??)
|
|
| Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?

They are doing it. Office 365 is subscription by the
month.

We were talking about the OS, not apps.

| IE has anywhere from 10% to 50% share, depending on
| who you ask.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_...f_web_browsers
|
| But that's IE, not IE11. IE11 can only run on Win7/8/10.
| It won't install on XP. (Win10 only recently passed XP
| in usage. XP is still popular. So not being able to run IE11
| on XP is a rather pitiful statement about Microsoft.)
|
| Those stats I gave are for IE11. It's all over the net.
| Why you use a Wiki with old data as a reference is beyond my ken.

Because that Wikipedia page is listing the
popular stat companies, like statcounter.
Perhaps your ken could manage to come up
with links if you want to make contrary
claims. "It's all over the net" is not useful.
You may have got it from an ad in your hotmail
for all I know.

Here's w3c's stats. Is that official enough?
They put IE11 at 6.75% as of January. That's
unusually low because they're counting all visitors,
not just desktops. On the other hand, phones
and tablets are very real considerations these
days. On the bright side, most of those are
running Safari or Chrome, so they don't need
any special treatment. On my own site those
numbers seem to be about right.

Other counters that only track desktops give
figures 25-50% for all IE versions.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...bvIDg&&ct=clnk

It will vary a lot. Shopping sites will vary from
more techie sites, for instance. A counter that
tracks Victorias Secret and Amazon may have
different results from one that tracks CNN and
EBay but not Amazon.
25% for IE11 may be realistic in some markets
*for desktop only*, but in general browser usage
it's quite low. And I know from my own server logs
that IE11 is only an occasional visitor to my site,
despite it being a Microsoft-centric site. (Frankly I'm
shocked at how many people prefer google's Chrome
spyware. I don't consider IE spyware. Just unsafe,
non-standards-compliant junk. I actually *love* IE
for offline use in HTAs. I just don't think it's fit for
online use. Chrome, on the other hand, really is
spyware.... Well, I should say I don't consider IE
to be exceptional spyware. most browsers these
days are tracking people, under the guise of such
things as "website reputation reporting". Even Firefox
has become very sleazy.)

| XP is only about 10% of the market now.
| But people still drive old cars. My cars are 2003 and 1995.
|
That's what I find, too. XP, 8 and 10 are
all in the 10% range. The rest is mostly Win7.
Another way to look at it is that Windows
XP-10 is about 90% of OS share online. About
15+% of those, or 1/6, XP and Vista, can't run
Microsoft's latest version of IE. No other OS
can run Microsoft's latest version of IE. I don't
know about you, but I'd say that's pretty bad
performance on the part of Microsoft. To my
mind that makes IE11 a niche browser, like
Safari. I'm happy to support Safari if I can, but
I'm not going to go out of my way for it. The
difference is that Safari, like every other non-IE
browser, is standards compliant. So I only need
to support one of those -- Firefox, Chrome, Safari,
etc -- and I automatically support them all. IE11,
by contrast, breaks compatibility with IE10,
which breaks with IE9, which breaks with IE8...
and so on. And they all break compatibility with
standards.

You're free to support IE11 if you have a
website. I see it as a case of diminishing
returns. It's just not worth my time and effort.

| | And, MS wouldn't be doing anything illegal *or* immoral (you pay for
| | minutes on your phone; aren't you paying or a service? isn't your
| | OS providing a service to you??)
| |
| |
| | Then why don't they do it? Why don't they charge by the hour?
|
| They are doing it. Office 365 is subscription by the
| month.
|
| We were talking about the OS, not apps.

I'm talking about both. Linux is not going to
replace Windows if it can't run MS Office and
Photoshop. The software is what people use
the OS for. And there's no reason to assume
charging a subscription for the OS won't happen,
either. It's all just a matter of market. MS could
do something like say, "OK, we're going to keep
Windows free, but patches will be on a yearly
subscription basis." That's essentially what they
already do with business licensing. They rent it
on a multi-year basis.

Personally I never believed Adobe would get
away with charging rent on Photoshop, but people
have signed up in droves. They don't think they
have a choice.
Microsoft will do the same. If they can get
away with it, they'll charge. And apologists like
yourself will undoubtedly be the first to rationalize
why it's reasonable.

On 2/21/2016 9:32 AM, Don Y wrote:
Hi Frank,

On 2/20/2016 3:41 PM, Frank wrote:
On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

I had to turn off several privacy settings that were either intrusive or
collected data taking an extra minute to shut down.

What happens if you're "offline"? What happens if you STAY
offline? (i.e., is there a point where it simply refuses
to operate? Or, is there likely to *be* a point where it
refuses to operate unless it can "get a cookie" from it's
masters??)

My only disappointment with Win 10 was their taking off several time
wasting
games and making you go to their ap store to get them for free.
Not super intrusive but you will get a pop up ad at the end of the
game and
they tell you you can make it ad free by paying $1.49 a month.

I think Apple and Android are in the up sale business and MS has
joined them.
Future software upgrades will be free but won't be free of them trying
to up
sell you aps.

I tend to avoid ads (in my browser as well as what I consciously set my
eyes on). I don't buy the whole "we're trying to improve YOUR user
experience argument: if you'd wanted to do that, you'd make the
product more secure, less buggy, more responsive, etc. -- not push
advertising at me (for things you THINK that I might be interested in).

So, I'm suspicious of folks using that sort of logic to market a
*free* OS to me (or, in this case, to the kids that I'll be serving).

OTOH, this may just be "the way its going to be", going forward.

Sad that the FOSS community wastes so much time adding features
and tweeking performance instead of concentrating on offering
a reliable, stable product that could compete. But, so long
as you've got folks fixated on stroking their own sense of
*personal* accomplishment -- instead of addressing that need -- then
the trend will never change (a mindset is a tough thing to shake)

Otherwise I'm happy with Win 10 and have not had any serious issues since
starting to use it.

I'm sure MS is watching the numbers and won't get Draconian until they know
their users have no choice. The fact that they track how long you are
*in* windows suggests a "usage billing" option may be in the cards for
the future -- like "minutes" and "data" on your cell phone.

Maybe *that* will be what's needed to kill the kitty videos? :

Ads in the game are not that intrusive but fact they are there makes it
annoying. As for Win 10, I heard Kim Komando say that the underlying
architecture is better. I also use ad blocks on my Win 10 desktop and
Android tablet but Android pop ups are far worse than Windows.

Websites are just as guilty of this intrusiveness crap. I was looking
at new model cars on a car maker site and later logging into another
site there was an ad for the cars I was looking at. My Firefox browser
is set to delete all cookies and history when I leave it but session
stuff can get through.

On 2/21/2016 10:02 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 8:13:25 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 3:46 AM, mike wrote:
On 2/20/2016 8:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Wouldn't homeless teens be better served by building them...
wait for it...
HOMES???

You can often *find* homes for them -- friends, extended family,
other charitable programs, etc. But, in most cases, they will
leave school before graduation. Then you end up with a
"less than productive" member of society.

Last time I checked, "homes" were pretty expensive. For
the monies spent keeping ~800 kids in school "for another
year", you might be able to build 20 homes (assuming you got
the land and labor for free). If you're just interested
in *renting* space for them, maybe put 200 of them into "low rent"
units?

Then, who's going to heat/cool/electrify/maintain those homes?
And, feed them?

And, does having a home keep the kid in school? Or, force him
into the workforce so he can pay his utilities, upkeep, etc.?

Of course, if you're willing to donate ~$4M/year, then those 800
kids could stay in school AND have a place to call their own.

That's the problem when you look at a problem superficially;
you convince yourself that you've got a solution when, in fact,
you've just changed the problem (now you have post-teens
wondering how they will be able to afford to live without
an education! Simple: just keep the $4M donations coming
indefinitely -- for each group of 800 "young people" : )

Are there not a number of closed military bases around the country that could be repurposed for housing the homeless kids and families? Heck, those FEMA concentration camps could also be put to good use. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Homey Monster

Think I just read some place that there are 7 abandoned houses in the US
for each person that is homeless.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 14:24:24 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote
You're free to support IE11 if you have a
website. I see it as a case of diminishing
returns. It's just not worth my time and effort.


I don't have a website. I just use IE11.
With no issues.

On 02/21/2016 10:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/21/2016 9:00 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/21/2016 08:54 AM, Don Y wrote:
resources making a BETTER PRODUCT"?]

Here is one anti-spy utility

http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/deta...10_spying.html

Plenty more out there.

If all they are doing is tweeking registry settings, then a good
article is just as effective for me. And, one less piece of
software that I'd have to install and maintain.

I have Win10 on one machine just for testing purposes, which isn't
really used
, so I am not concerned with spying

I thought it said it was portable, so you don't have to install it,
but it can
tweak the settings a bit faster than if you did so manually.

I like to KNOW what a tool is doing. And, once I "make the adjustment"
the first time, the changes (along with the rest of the installed
software) will just be cloned onto new machines. So, you
only "save" once.

I build a log file that documents all of the steps that I take when
creating
a machine. "Install this", "configure that", etc. Any registry
settings are included in the log file in a way that I can just
copy them into a FOO.REG file and install them from there. Then,
delete FOO.REG. Omits typing and reduces chance of typographical
errors.

Also lets you (me) see what is being done -- instead of HOPING
everything has been done.

Anyway there are tons of Google hits with all the info you need



I just glanced at the webpage but it appeared to have full documentation
of everything it does

On 2/21/2016 12:42 PM, Frank wrote:
Ads in the game are not that intrusive but fact they are there makes it
annoying. As for Win 10, I heard Kim Komando say that the underlying
architecture is better. I also use ad blocks on my Win 10 desktop and Android
tablet but Android pop ups are far worse than Windows.

I've decided my brain is simply "wired wrong". I don't respond to ads.
When I want something, I go looking for it -- along with first-hand
(verifiable) accounts of its performance, etc.

Websites are just as guilty of this intrusiveness crap. I was looking at new
model cars on a car maker site and later logging into another site there was an
ad for the cars I was looking at. My Firefox browser is set to delete all
cookies and history when I leave it but session stuff can get through.

There are *lots* of ways to track "you" and/or "your machine".

When you visit a web site, they can "profile" your browser
(Firefox/Chrome/IE/etc., plus version). They know what OS
you are running (Mac/PC, version).

http://id.furud.net/

They can figure out which fonts you have configured. Whether you
have flash enabled or not. Your tracking preferences. Etc.

https://panopticlick.eff.org

[And, of course, they have an IP address that correlates with
you (in some way -- it may not be *your* IP address but it is
related to you!).]

So, they can play the numbers game: how many people (machines) have
this combination of these "attributes".

[In my case, my browser configuration is reasonably unique -- anything
that stores a representation of my browser "fingerprint" can identify
me (well, not *me* but, rather, my browser!) whenever I revisit the
site.]

And, there's nothing to prevent someone (someTHING) from SHARING that
information behind the scenes. E.g., every site that uses googleadservices
is effectively relaying this information to google (actually, THEY
aren't doing it but, instead, are telling *you* to do it for them!
By directing YOUR browser to fetch some bit of script from that domain!)