I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

Why do you "have to"? Is it a court order for your probation?

I'm on XP, and pleased with how it handles.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700
Don Y wrote:

so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)

So you are only into this half ass.
Why do it at all then?
Getting publicity for you?

On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).



snip


FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a cash-poor
NPO, I set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.


It turned out to be the least expensive way to go, and no one ending up
damaging the OS.


Using WINE, even many Windows applications will run.

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 10:50:06 AM UTC-6, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).



snip


FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a cash-poor
NPO, I set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.


It turned out to be the least expensive way to go, and no one ending up
damaging the OS.


Using WINE, even many Windows applications will run.

I agree, but I doubt Mr. Know-it-all will!

|I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
| unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
| dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
| to their latest).
|
You can get Win7, but it's not cheap. I've bought
from this company in the past and had no problems:

buycheapsoftware.com

You can even still buy XP. (I built myself a new
XP box recently. You just have to be careful about
making sure the hardware has drivers available.)

| W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
| that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
| you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).
|
| Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
| this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?
|

Not firsthand. I haven't used Win10. But I do keep
track of news. Basically, you can't block it all. Microsoft
now considers you to be renting services on their device.
They simply will not respect or even acknowledge common
notions of privacy and customer respect. They even have
privacy terms and TOS now, which is, itself, rather creepy
for an operationg system:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/priva...t/default.aspx

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servi...t/default.aspx

Actually, what they're doing is defining their product as
services and devices. The terms apply to all services, with
Windows being one of them. For what it's worth, here are
a few more links:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/302...-snooping.html

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...he-new-normal/

Microsoft reserves the right to update Win10 at
their discretion, which means that even if you decide
you don't mind what Win10 is now, it may not be that
in a few months. Ads and spying are likely to increase
over time, as they gradually acclimate the customer
base to the new business model. (That's the freebie
strategy. Facebook is a good example. As is Twitter.
They start out free and then gradually become more
exploitive as people get hooked. The kicker here,
though, is that Win10 is not even free! The Win7/8
Win7/8 update is free.)

| Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
| (for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
| accept future updates.

The latest news is that the following Registry setting
works, but it's a shifting landscape. The only safely stable
approach is to disable Windows Update. MS wants to convert
everyone to Win10 services. They're not likely to give up.

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUp date
DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1

| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.

On 02/20/2016 10:55 AM, Mayayana wrote:




| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.





Once I had the Linux machines setup, I did not bother with updates or
new versions. Everything was fine.


The only time I worked on a machine was when there was a hardware
failure, and at that time I would possibly decide to upgrade the OS


Some of the machines ran for years with no maintenance and when I did
finally have to work on one I had little more to do than simply delete
Windows malware downloaded to the desktop


That said: I did also have to maintain the "production" computers that
ran Windows. Since the organization qualified, I passed the test
required to become a "Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher" and they were
able to get licenses very low cost

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700
Don Y wrote:


alt.comp.os.windows-10

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:55:40 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

|I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
| unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
| dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
| to their latest).
|
You can get Win7, but it's not cheap. I've bought
from this company in the past and had no problems:

buycheapsoftware.com

You can even still buy XP. (I built myself a new
XP box recently. You just have to be careful about
making sure the hardware has drivers available.)

| W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
| that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
| you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).
|
| Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
| this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?
|

Not firsthand. I haven't used Win10. But I do keep
track of news. Basically, you can't block it all. Microsoft
now considers you to be renting services on their device.
They simply will not respect or even acknowledge common
notions of privacy and customer respect. They even have
privacy terms and TOS now, which is, itself, rather creepy
for an operationg system:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/priva...t/default.aspx

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servi...t/default.aspx

Actually, what they're doing is defining their product as
services and devices. The terms apply to all services, with
Windows being one of them. For what it's worth, here are
a few more links:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/302...-snooping.html

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...he-new-normal/

Microsoft reserves the right to update Win10 at
their discretion, which means that even if you decide
you don't mind what Win10 is now, it may not be that
in a few months. Ads and spying are likely to increase
over time, as they gradually acclimate the customer
base to the new business model. (That's the freebie
strategy. Facebook is a good example. As is Twitter.
They start out free and then gradually become more
exploitive as people get hooked. The kicker here,
though, is that Win10 is not even free! The Win7/8
Win7/8 update is free.)

| Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
| (for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
| accept future updates.

The latest news is that the following Registry setting
works, but it's a shifting landscape. The only safely stable
approach is to disable Windows Update. MS wants to convert
everyone to Win10 services. They're not likely to give up.

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsU pdate
DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1

| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.

You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install
(during upgrade) and answering NO to everything - and you CAN dissable
the automatic upgrades/updates which will also prevent the darn thing
from rebooting on it's own whenever it wants to.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:08:21 -0600, philo wrote:

On 02/20/2016 10:55 AM, Mayayana wrote:




| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.





Once I had the Linux machines setup, I did not bother with updates or
new versions. Everything was fine.


The only time I worked on a machine was when there was a hardware
failure, and at that time I would possibly decide to upgrade the OS


Some of the machines ran for years with no maintenance and when I did
finally have to work on one I had little more to do than simply delete
Windows malware downloaded to the desktop


That said: I did also have to maintain the "production" computers that
ran Windows. Since the organization qualified, I passed the test
required to become a "Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher" and they were
able to get licenses very low cost
I've had a lot of old windows machines run for over a decade without
any maintenance too. The secret is to either keep themoff the internet
or severely limit internet access.

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 1:01:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:55:40 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

|I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
| unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
| dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
| to their latest).
|
You can get Win7, but it's not cheap. I've bought
from this company in the past and had no problems:

buycheapsoftware.com

You can even still buy XP. (I built myself a new
XP box recently. You just have to be careful about
making sure the hardware has drivers available.)

| W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
| that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
| you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).
|
| Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
| this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?
|

Not firsthand. I haven't used Win10. But I do keep
track of news. Basically, you can't block it all. Microsoft
now considers you to be renting services on their device.
They simply will not respect or even acknowledge common
notions of privacy and customer respect. They even have
privacy terms and TOS now, which is, itself, rather creepy
for an operationg system:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/priva...t/default.aspx

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servi...t/default.aspx

Actually, what they're doing is defining their product as
services and devices. The terms apply to all services, with
Windows being one of them. For what it's worth, here are
a few more links:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/302...-snooping.html

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...he-new-normal/

Microsoft reserves the right to update Win10 at
their discretion, which means that even if you decide
you don't mind what Win10 is now, it may not be that
in a few months. Ads and spying are likely to increase
over time, as they gradually acclimate the customer
base to the new business model. (That's the freebie
strategy. Facebook is a good example. As is Twitter.
They start out free and then gradually become more
exploitive as people get hooked. The kicker here,
though, is that Win10 is not even free! The Win7/8
Win7/8 update is free.)

| Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
| (for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
| accept future updates.

The latest news is that the following Registry setting
works, but it's a shifting landscape. The only safely stable
approach is to disable Windows Update. MS wants to convert
everyone to Win10 services. They're not likely to give up.

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsU pdate
DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1

| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.

You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install
(during upgrade) and answering NO to everything - and you CAN dissable
the automatic upgrades/updates which will also prevent the darn thing
from rebooting on it's own whenever it wants to.

My understanding was that with Win 10 there is no direct way
to simply stop automatic updates like you can with previous
versions of Windows. I have seen some people
suggesting that you can do it by declaring whatever connection
you have to the internet to be "metered", so the update agent
won't do updates while using that link. That appears to be what
I'd call a workaround, for now, at least.

On 2/20/2016 9:50 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a cash-poor NPO, I
set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.

The problem is that these kids are still in "primary school".
So, they aren't likely to encounter other users -- nor the
computers to which they have access at school, public libraries,
etc. -- who can help them with non-Windows issues.

[One school district has standardized on Mac's; I don't deal with
their students -- only so many hours in a day that I can share
between *my* needs and those of charities : ]

I typically have to address dozens of different make/models *and*
somehow keep track of what I've done (so I can repeat the exercise
when/if someone else donates an identical/similar machine!)

So, there's a lot of effort (i.e., my unpaid time) that is involved
in researching each donation, chasing down the appropriate drivers
(or, "restore disks" from the manufacturer), removing cruft that
shouldn't be there (e.g., manufacturers often install "sample ware"
that expires in 60/90 days and just proves to be a nuisance, thereafter;
so, remove it BEFORE the student even encounters it!), configuring
basic settings...

*Then*, tweeking the machine so the student can "self-restore" the
image (even if the machine itself doesn't provide that option).

When I first started doing this, I naively expected the users to be
somewhat competent and protective of their machine (freebie!).
I quickly discovered that they were not! Machines would come back
within a month, "broken": "I don't know what happened. It just
stopped working!"

So, spend MORE time to discover that it's just loaded with spyware
and malware. Carefully remove that -- trying to preserve their
"user data" (as I would for a friend/neighbor).

And, see that same machine a few months later, etc.

I donate about 500 hours annually. So, every time I "repair" or
"assist" someone, it means someone *else* doesn't get addressed.
So, I want to be able to offload as much of the trivial support
issues ("How do I install a new printer driver?") to other
folks who *probably* can handle these things in their normal
school venues.

It turned out to be the least expensive way to go, and no one ending up
damaging the OS.

Using WINE, even many Windows applications will run.

But the students don't tend to have control over which applications
their school system will want/require. I can install OpenOffice/LibreOffice
as a productivity suite -- but, if everyone in the class is using
MSOffice, then the instruction they receive will be inappropriate
for *their* environment.

There's a good chance they're currently sleeping on a couch at a friend's
family's residence. And, may be asked to move along soon enough. It's
silly to throw yet another problem in their way... whether that problem
is dealing with a non-Windows OS *or* a windows OS that will screw them
over (in subtle ways).

On 2/20/2016 9:55 AM, Mayayana wrote:
|I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
| unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
| dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
| to their latest).

You can get Win7, but it's not cheap. I've bought
from this company in the past and had no problems:

buycheapsoftware.com

There are places where non-profits (verified 501(c)3's)
can get licenses for very *little* money (single digits).
But, those places operate at the whim of the folks who
*donate* the licenses (e.g., MS). So, you're stuck with
their terms...

You can even still buy XP. (I built myself a new
XP box recently. You just have to be careful about
making sure the hardware has drivers available.)

Stick with Dells and licensing isn't usually a problem.
OTOH, you're always at the mercy of drivers. And, the
manufacturers AND MS have skin in that game -- wanting
to move you along to the latest and greatest at all costs!

| W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
| that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
| you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).
|
| Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
| this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Not firsthand. I haven't used Win10. But I do keep
track of news. Basically, you can't block it all. Microsoft
now considers you to be renting services on their device.
They simply will not respect or even acknowledge common
notions of privacy and customer respect. They even have
privacy terms and TOS now, which is, itself, rather creepy
for an operationg system:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/priva...t/default.aspx

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/servi...t/default.aspx

Actually, what they're doing is defining their product as
services and devices. The terms apply to all services, with

Of course! MS is late to the game. Billy Goates thought
software was the product; but, in fact, the *users* are!

Windows being one of them. For what it's worth, here are
a few more links:

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-to-microsoft/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/302...-snooping.html

http://arstechnica.com/information-t...he-new-normal/

Microsoft reserves the right to update Win10 at
their discretion, which means that even if you decide
you don't mind what Win10 is now, it may not be that
in a few months. Ads and spying are likely to increase
over time, as they gradually acclimate the customer
base to the new business model. (That's the freebie
strategy. Facebook is a good example. As is Twitter.
They start out free and then gradually become more
exploitive as people get hooked. The kicker here,
though, is that Win10 is not even free! The Win7/8
Win7/8 update is free.)

| Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
| (for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
| accept future updates.

The latest news is that the following Registry setting
works, but it's a shifting landscape. The only safely stable
approach is to disable Windows Update. MS wants to convert
everyone to Win10 services. They're not likely to give up.

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUp date
DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1

I'd seen notes that there were more tweeks required.

And, as everything between the user and the network connection
is controlled by MS, there's nothing to say they can't simply
*ignore* that setting -- now or after you've installed something
else!

I.e., I can install updates "offline" and KNOW that my machines
will never "phone home" -- there's no way they can do that
(no connection to outside networks). As I'm using them as
"computers" and not "entertainment devices" or "media access
points", I lose nothing by operating in this manner.

However, the students will almost assuredly WANT to be
"online".

And, *I* would want them to get any "required" updates automatically
without having to deal with seeing *all* of these machines again,
every Patch Tuesday, etc.

| [I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
| student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
| later when an update mucks something up...]
|
| [[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
| would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

You could install Linux, then give them Libre
Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
is that they won't be able to do much else with
it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
constant version churn.

FOSS options are simply impractical. Who do they call for
help when something doesn't work? Can they turn to the
student seated at the next desk and ask for assistance?
Or, the teacher/assistant in the classroom?

What happens when they want to download a file-sharing
application? Or, whatever?

On 2/20/2016 11:02 AM, wrote:

I've had a lot of old windows machines run for over a decade without
any maintenance too. The secret is to either keep themoff the internet
or severely limit internet access.

Exactly. That's the approach I take with my machines. When you
look through the various "updates", almost all are security related.
There are obvious bugs that have persisted in XP that have never
been addressed -- hard to believe when you see updates that, combined,
are BIGGER than the OS!

For shared machines (and the "safe" laptops that I have here) I
configure the system to discard any changes made to it at each
reboot. So, one person can't muck with settings that will
affect (shared) "User" next time. This also makes it harder for
malware to take hold (if you regularly reboot/restore).

burfordTjustice wrote in
:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700
Don Y wrote:

so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)

So you are only into this half ass.
Why do it at all then?
Getting publicity for you?

His SWMBO ordered him to do it.

| You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install
| (during upgrade) and answering NO to everything

No, you can't. Read my links. It's intrusive
by design. People would like to think they can
fix it because that would make life a lot easier,
but it's just not the case.

When you finish reading those links, here's
another one that's even more surprising, from
just a couple of weeks ago.

https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/835741

Note the line:

"I have chosen the customized installation option
where I disabled three pages of tracking options."

Over 5,000 calls out in 8 hours! There's been some
criticism that that may be a high number because the
author blocked the attempts to go out, so some may
have been multiples. Even so, it tried to call out to
numerous IPs after all available privacy options had
been selected.

| You could install Linux, then give them Libre
| Office and Firefox. The problem there, though,
| is that they won't be able to do much else with
| it. And Linux support is terrible because there's
| constant version churn.
|
| Once I had the Linux machines setup, I did not bother with updates or
| new versions. Everything was fine.
|

I guess it depends on what one does with it. I
could imagine a scenario where I want to install
new software or updates down the road. Since Linux
is always a work in progress, no one cares about
backward compatibility. So one updates program XYZ
from v. 1.24.213 to v. 1.24.414 and it needs a dozen
libraries replaced, because, for instance, libABC
v. 2.463.654.22 is no longer good enough. The new
program version was compiled with a dependency on
libABC v. 2.463.654.24. At some point those kinds of
dependencies will conflict with the Linux version.

It can be made easier by just allowing the software
to go out and update itself, but then one ends up
back in the same boat as with Windows: The whole
idea of switching is to protect privacy and control
of the system, yet now Linux wants to be allowed
to go online and update things willy nilly.

I don't see any reason why I should enable
anything through the firewall that I didn't initiate.
The software is supposed to be doing what I tell
it to do.... Which brings up another issue: Last
I checked, there was no firewall available for Linux
that provided outgoing block by process. The excuse
offered by Linux fans was that Linux isn't creepy
like Windows so you don't need outgoing block!
Even if that were true, blocking outgoing is a good
way to help avoid malware. And I see no reason
to just trust not only the Linux distribution but also
every other process that runs on a Linux box.
Trustworthy means it doesn't ask or try to go
online.

Backward compatibility has always been one of
the best aspects of Windows. Software can easily
be written today that runs on Win95 to Win10. It's
even easier to write software that runs on Win2000
to Win10. Microsoft almost never breaks any
documented API function, so if it worked on Win95
it can be depended on to work on Win10.

On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install
| (during upgrade) and answering NO to everything

No, you can't. Read my links. It's intrusive
by design. People would like to think they can
fix it because that would make life a lot easier,
but it's just not the case.

When you finish reading those links, here's
another one that's even more surprising, from
just a couple of weeks ago.

https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/835741

Note the line:

"I have chosen the customized installation option
where I disabled three pages of tracking options."

Over 5,000 calls out in 8 hours! There's been some
criticism that that may be a high number because the
author blocked the attempts to go out, so some may
have been multiples. Even so, it tried to call out to
numerous IPs after all available privacy options had
been selected.

As I said elsewhere, MS is controlling EVERYTHING in the
box. They can do anything they want and you are powerless
to prevent it or interfere with it -- if they so choose.

The "obvious" solution is an EXTERNAL firewall between
the machine and the 'net -- something that MS *can't*
control.

But, it's relatively easy to tunnel through most firewalls;
especially for (relatively) low bandwidth connections.
E.g., send a DNS request to resolve databeingpassed.microsoft.com
and the registered name server for microsoft.com will *see*
an incoming request to resolve "databeingpassed" *from* your IP.
MS decides to resolve this as 127.127.127.127 (knowing that
*it* will be the entity "seeing" this information) and then
interpreting it as "User not registered. Shut down system".

Of course, they can simply refuse to RUN unless they
manage to get a phone call off to "home"! (So, you'd
have to be able to have some other device that masquerades
as MS -- no doubt using an encrypted technology -- to
trick the OS into thinking that the call succeeded.)

| And, *I* would want them to get any "required" updates automatically
| without having to deal with seeing *all* of these machines again,
| every Patch Tuesday, etc.
|

I wonder why you posted your question. You seem
to already have formed opinions and gathered as
much info as you want.

I would add, though, that I don't enable updates on
any machines I handle. I install service packs. Beyond
that very few updates are important and some will
do damage. Unless you use MS Office, there's not
much to update. If you don't use IE, even better.
MS doesn't generally offer functionality updates. Just
bug and security patches. If you don't use MS
software online then you don't need security patches.
You'd get those from Mozilla or whatever other
company makes the software you use online.

If you're going to enable Windows Update then
you're probably leaving your students to be tricked
into Win10.

On 2/20/2016 12:38 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| And, *I* would want them to get any "required" updates automatically
| without having to deal with seeing *all* of these machines again,
| every Patch Tuesday, etc.

I wonder why you posted your question. You seem
to already have formed opinions and gathered as
much info as you want.

I've not used Windows 10. I was hoping folks had first-hand
experiences with it and could indicate why a student *would*
want to run it instead of W7, etc. And, at the same time,
identify issues that I (with no experience using it)
*or* a student (with little interest in the details) wouldn't
notice.

I would add, though, that I don't enable updates on
any machines I handle. I install service packs. Beyond
that very few updates are important and some will
do damage. Unless you use MS Office, there's not
much to update. If you don't use IE, even better.
MS doesn't generally offer functionality updates. Just
bug and security patches. If you don't use MS
software online then you don't need security patches.
You'd get those from Mozilla or whatever other
company makes the software you use online.

Exactly. The last batch of machines I built were
XP boxes. As ALL the updates were already released,
I could safely install ALL of them and then remove
the update mechanism (nothing new to be gained with it).

But, moving to a more current OS -- especially one that
WANTS to go poking around in your box -- means you have
little practical choice in the matter.

If you're going to enable Windows Update then
you're probably leaving your students to be tricked
into Win10.

I can remove the executables so the updates never happen.
But, that means any hardware that is received as a donation
must have driver support for the older OS's.

This is a losing proposition; over time, the machines that
are available as donations will NOT have support for
older OS's thereby forcing newer OS's to be deployed.

I.e., the machines being manufactured today will be available
as donations in 2-3 years. Look at today's offerings and see how
far back OS support goes.

By the same token, machines seen as donations today were
manufactured 2-3 years ago. The "Windows Option" becomes
increasingly difficult to be presented as a *choice*
("use THIS version of Windows, or nothing")

On 02/20/2016 12:14 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 9:50 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a
cash-poor NPO, I
set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.

The problem is that these kids are still in "primary school".
So, they aren't likely to encounter other users -- nor the
computers to which they have access at school, public libraries,
etc. -- who can help them with non-Windows issues.



snip


Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally
disabled, so if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.


The learning curve going (for example) from XP to Win8

Is considerably higher than in going to Linux.

I put the stuff they needed, such as an Internet browser and they just
got right to work.


Maybe you should just set a machine up with a simple distribution such
as Puppy Linux ...and see how it goes.

On 02/20/2016 12:02 PM, wrote:
On X



I've had a lot of old windows machines run for over a decade without
any maintenance too. The secret is to either keep themoff the internet
or severely limit internet access.




Sure, but the machines I setup were used almost exclusively for Internet
and the only problems were when hardware would fail.

The machines were rather old.

| Exactly. The last batch of machines I built were
| XP boxes. As ALL the updates were already released,
| I could safely install ALL of them and then remove
| the update mechanism (nothing new to be gained with it).
|
| But, moving to a more current OS -- especially one that
| WANTS to go poking around in your box -- means you have
| little practical choice in the matter.
|

?? I have two Win7 computers. I don't enable
Windows Update on either one of them. I use
XP for getting things done. My main Win7 box is
the sacrificial lamb for enabling javascript online.
I put AV on that one, for good measure, but disable
most services, including Windows update. It's
simply not needed.

| If you're going to enable Windows Update then
| you're probably leaving your students to be tricked
| into Win10.
|
| I can remove the executables so the updates never happen.
| But, that means any hardware that is received as a donation
| must have driver support for the older OS's.
|

What's that got to do with enabling Windows Update?
If you get a computer that you want to put Win7 on,
you go online and get drivers for the hardware. If there
are no drivers then so be it. Enabling Windows Update
won't help with that.

On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

Considering the Whack-A-Mole game you need to play to keep 10 off a 7
machine, I see no way a relatively naive user is going to avoid MS
re-introducing the spyware.

On 2/20/2016 1:26 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| Exactly. The last batch of machines I built were
| XP boxes. As ALL the updates were already released,
| I could safely install ALL of them and then remove
| the update mechanism (nothing new to be gained with it).
|
| But, moving to a more current OS -- especially one that
| WANTS to go poking around in your box -- means you have
| little practical choice in the matter.

?? I have two Win7 computers. I don't enable
Windows Update on either one of them. I use
XP for getting things done. My main Win7 box is
the sacrificial lamb for enabling javascript online.
I put AV on that one, for good measure, but disable
most services, including Windows update. It's
simply not needed.

And you are relying on Windows to honor your wish NOT to
enable updates.

Do you likewise rely on windows 10 NOT to track your
activities -- simply because you *told* it not to?
Which activities constitute tracking in YOUR mind?
Are you sure MS doesn't have a rationale for those *particular*
activities "to provide better service", "to assist in
troubleshooting problems", "to..."?

| If you're going to enable Windows Update then
| you're probably leaving your students to be tricked
| into Win10.
|
| I can remove the executables so the updates never happen.
| But, that means any hardware that is received as a donation
| must have driver support for the older OS's.

What's that got to do with enabling Windows Update?

You said:
"If you're going to enable Windows Update then
you're probably leaving your students to be tricked
into Win10."
I replied:
"I can remove the executables so the updates never happen."
I.e., so windows can't even *chose* to IGNORE the "disable updates"
setting (cuz you are relying on windows to do what you've
told it to do). As such, there (should be) no way for updates
to be offered -- unless a user visits a MS service (web page, etc.)
that tries to explicitly offer that option.

But, the effect of disallowing Windows 10 (via update or any
other means) forces:
"any hardware that is received as a donation must have driver
support for the older OS's."
As donations get NEWER (simply a consequence of the passing of time),
finding drivers for that NEWER hardware for OLDER OS's becomes
problematic -- they probably NEVER write an XP driver for hardware
on a machine released in 2016!

[You can verify this by trying to purchase a "current" machine
and seeing for which OS's it offers support. Of course, you
*may* be able to get older drivers for SOME of the hardware
(with some effort and some risk of uncertainty). Or, you
may be completely SoL.]

(By extension, which drivers are simply not available for machines
designed in 2013 -- which are now being donated for these uses?)

If you get a computer that you want to put Win7 on,
you go online and get drivers for the hardware. If there
are no drivers then so be it. Enabling Windows Update
won't help with that.

You're conflating two different issues. Please reread my comments
(restated here).

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:33:49 -0700
rbowman wrote:

On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

Considering the Whack-A-Mole game you need to play to keep 10 off a 7
machine, I see no way a relatively naive user is going to avoid MS
re-introducing the spyware.

Easy Peasy"
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/201...ly-remove.html

On 20 Feb 2016 18:33:23 GMT
Zak W wrote:

burfordTjustice wrote in
:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700
Don Y wrote:

so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)

So you are only into this half ass.
Why do it at all then?
Getting publicity for you?

His SWMBO ordered him to do it.


Oh, another girlie man I see said the blind man.

On 2/20/2016 1:33 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

Considering the Whack-A-Mole game you need to play to keep 10 off a 7 machine,
I see no way a relatively naive user is going to avoid MS re-introducing the
spyware.

The XP machines were relatively easy, by comparison, to "control".
As all the updates -- that would ever exist -- were already released
(by MS), it was safe to install them and disable the update service
entirely (there's nothing more to update, why even try??)

[Yeah, maybe root certificates, eventually]

Students who were too-smart-by-half and tried to update using
a copy of a Win7 CD that a friend happened to have were
essentially "on their own". If I received a call about a "broken
computer", I simply repeated the instructions that I provided with
each machine: "reboot, press this, click on that, wait 4 minutes"
and they'd soon "discover" that I'd undone all of their changes
and restored the machine to the state it was in when they
received it (from me).

It doesn't take long for them to realize that there's no support
for the upgrade that they think they want -- at least, not from
the freebie computer guy! :

[At the same time, there was nothing that prevented them from
trying this! Or any *other* use/OS/etc. *I* just don't want to
be taxed with supporting their adventures!]

On 2/20/2016 1:16 PM, philo wrote:
Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally disabled, so
if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.

How do I create a table heading that spans two columns?
How do I set the shading for every other row to be light/dark?
How do I import this photo that I downloaded from Wikipedia
into my report?
How do I print JUST page 3 of my report?
How do I connect to the printer that my host/foster family has
installed at their house?

The learning curve going (for example) from XP to Win8

Is considerably higher than in going to Linux.

I put the stuff they needed, such as an Internet browser and they just got
right to work.

Maybe you should just set a machine up with a simple distribution such as Puppy
Linux ...and see how it goes.

And *which* student should get that machine?
Will his first period teacher be accommodating (whereas all the
other students are working under Windows)?
What about his second period teacher? Third period? etc.
What about the teachers he has for the second half of the year?
Or, next year?
Or, at the NEW SCHOOL that he's now attending (because a space
in a foster home in a different school district on the other
side of town opened up, suddenly)?

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:14:10 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/20/2016 9:50 AM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 10:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

FWIW: When I worked as a volunteer computer refurbisher for a cash-poor NPO, I
set the machines up with Linux.

Even unsophisticated users had no trouble.

The problem is that these kids are still in "primary school".
So, they aren't likely to encounter other users -- nor the
computers to which they have access at school, public libraries,
etc. -- who can help them with non-Windows issues.

[One school district has standardized on Mac's; I don't deal with
their students -- only so many hours in a day that I can share
between *my* needs and those of charities : ]

I typically have to address dozens of different make/models *and*
somehow keep track of what I've done (so I can repeat the exercise
when/if someone else donates an identical/similar machine!)

So, there's a lot of effort (i.e., my unpaid time) that is involved
in researching each donation, chasing down the appropriate drivers
(or, "restore disks" from the manufacturer), removing cruft that
shouldn't be there (e.g., manufacturers often install "sample ware"
that expires in 60/90 days and just proves to be a nuisance, thereafter;
so, remove it BEFORE the student even encounters it!), configuring
basic settings...

*Then*, tweeking the machine so the student can "self-restore" the
image (even if the machine itself doesn't provide that option).

When I first started doing this, I naively expected the users to be
somewhat competent and protective of their machine (freebie!).
I quickly discovered that they were not! Machines would come back
within a month, "broken": "I don't know what happened. It just
stopped working!"

The secret is NOBODY gets a "free" computer.
Make them put some effort into getting one.- even if it's a dollar and
acheiving a scholastic goal, or X hours of "community service".
Something they can afford - but something that equates to some
effort/sacrifice on their part. Then things get taken care of.

Something that has no cost has no value to many people.

So, spend MORE time to discover that it's just loaded with spyware
and malware. Carefully remove that -- trying to preserve their
"user data" (as I would for a friend/neighbor).

And, see that same machine a few months later, etc.

I donate about 500 hours annually. So, every time I "repair" or
"assist" someone, it means someone *else* doesn't get addressed.
So, I want to be able to offload as much of the trivial support
issues ("How do I install a new printer driver?") to other
folks who *probably* can handle these things in their normal
school venues.

It turned out to be the least expensive way to go, and no one ending up
damaging the OS.

Using WINE, even many Windows applications will run.

But the students don't tend to have control over which applications
their school system will want/require. I can install OpenOffice/LibreOffice
as a productivity suite -- but, if everyone in the class is using
MSOffice, then the instruction they receive will be inappropriate
for *their* environment.

There's a good chance they're currently sleeping on a couch at a friend's
family's residence. And, may be asked to move along soon enough. It's
silly to throw yet another problem in their way... whether that problem
is dealing with a non-Windows OS *or* a windows OS that will screw them
over (in subtle ways).

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:37:38 -0500, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| You CAN turn off virtually all the spyware by doing a custom install
| (during upgrade) and answering NO to everything

No, you can't. Read my links. It's intrusive
by design. People would like to think they can
fix it because that would make life a lot easier,
but it's just not the case.

When you finish reading those links, here's
another one that's even more surprising, from
just a couple of weeks ago.

https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/835741

Note the line:

"I have chosen the customized installation option
where I disabled three pages of tracking options."

Over 5,000 calls out in 8 hours! There's been some
criticism that that may be a high number because the
author blocked the attempts to go out, so some may
have been multiples. Even so, it tried to call out to
numerous IPs after all available privacy options had
been selected.

What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
hours?
What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
on mine???

On 2/20/2016 2:13 PM, wrote:

When I first started doing this, I naively expected the users to be
somewhat competent and protective of their machine (freebie!).
I quickly discovered that they were not! Machines would come back
within a month, "broken": "I don't know what happened. It just
stopped working!"

The secret is NOBODY gets a "free" computer.
Make them put some effort into getting one.- even if it's a dollar and
acheiving a scholastic goal, or X hours of "community service".
Something they can afford - but something that equates to some
effort/sacrifice on their part. Then things get taken care of.

Something that has no cost has no value to many people.

The "cost" is continued attendance and good performance at
school. They are graded monthly -- far more frequently
than "regular students". And, in addition to grades, they
have to evoke recommendations from EACH of their teachers.
**** off one and you risk being expelled from the program.

(which also provides food and housing assistance)

Granted, folks are usually hard pressed to relate the two
in their minds -- humans are notoriously ineffective at
coupling even trivially disjointed causes and effects.

The cost *I* chose to impose (to protect my time/effort) was
the risk of losing all of "their files" when/if they screwed
up the machine (by unsafe practices, etc.). I.e., I'll
give you a way to "fix" your machine -- but it will COST you
those things that *you* apparently valued (valued enough
to download, install, etc).

Of course, the agency could adopt a different policy. But,
as I'm not an employee, I wouldn't be obligated to *implement*
it!

(and, my reasoning is reasonably convincing -- not "arbitrary".
After all, these kids will eventually have to deal with The
Real World; there are few Mulligans, there!)

On 2/20/2016 2:20 PM, wrote:
What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
hours?
What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
on mine???

Enable logging in the firewall. It will log either (or both or neither)
successful connections *or* unsuccessful (dropped) connections.

Of course, a rootkit (i.e. MS!) could chose to hide data that it
doesn't want you to see! For this machine, I monitor the log
of the firewall in my router to see what's going on (outside
and inside)

On 2/20/2016 11:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]

I had to turn off several privacy settings that were either intrusive or
collected data taking an extra minute to shut down.

My only disappointment with Win 10 was their taking off several time
wasting games and making you go to their ap store to get them for free.
Not super intrusive but you will get a pop up ad at the end of the game
and they tell you you can make it ad free by paying $1.49 a month.

I think Apple and Android are in the up sale business and MS has joined
them. Future software upgrades will be free but won't be free of them
trying to up sell you aps.

Otherwise I'm happy with Win 10 and have not had any serious issues
since starting to use it.

| What utility did he use to determine there were 5000 "callouts" in 8
| hours?
| What (not spamware laded) utility can I run to see what is happening
| on mine???

I was going to refer you to the article, but when
I went to look I saw it had been deleted! Sorry about
that. I didn't know I was sending you to a stripped
link. When I looked up the user link it claimed that
user had never made any submissions. I then went
to archive.org for a copy. They had one, but said
the machine that serves it is down:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160211...omments/835741
Weird. I always save such things, because URLs are
often altered or moved. But I also found an archive
linked from the comments on that page. It explains
how the whole thing was done:

https://archive.is/QFL8e

He has some sort of customized router and installed
Win10 on VirtualBox, on Linux Mint, so that he could
track all activity. The problem with tracking it from
Win10 itself is that Windows can no longer be trusted.
Some IP addresses are now hard-coded, so that a
DNS lookup is not even needed. (That actually started
many years ago with Windows Media Player.)

To the extent that it might be possible to catch
some of the traffic, you could try TCPView from
sysinternals. You might also try a firewall. But that's
tricky. The firewall would depend on Windows networking
functionality, and most are not detailed enough to
tell you what's going out, much less what the data is.

I think there are other utilities to record the actual
data going in and out, but I've never tried anything
like that.

On 02/20/2016 03:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 1:16 PM, philo wrote:
Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally
disabled, so
if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.

How do I create a table heading that spans two columns?
How do I set the shading for every other row to be light/dark?
How do I import this photo that I downloaded from Wikipedia
into my report?
How do I print JUST page 3 of my report?
How do I connect to the printer that my host/foster family has
installed at their house?




None of the above can be accomplished by Windows or Linux on their own,
all that kind of stuff is dependent on which application you are using.

On 2/20/2016 4:23 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 03:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 1:16 PM, philo wrote:
Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally
disabled, so
if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.

How do I create a table heading that spans two columns?
How do I set the shading for every other row to be light/dark?
How do I import this photo that I downloaded from Wikipedia
into my report?
How do I print JUST page 3 of my report?
How do I connect to the printer that my host/foster family has
installed at their house?

None of the above can be accomplished by Windows or Linux on their own, all
that kind of stuff is dependent on which application you are using.

Exactly. The OS is just a scaffolding.

Now, how do I run Office 2K13 on Linux?

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:37:12 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

I have to build some computers for homeless teens. I'm
unsure if we'll be able to get W7 licenses (MS has tried to
dry up the availability of older OS's to push everyone
to their latest).

W10 allegedly is rife with spyware ("data collection"
that MS no doubt uses to sell *you* to THEIR customers;
you are no longer a customer but, rather, a commodity).

Does anyone have first-hand experience with how pervasive
this is? And, if there are *reliable* ways to disable it?

Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

[I prefer to lock-down these sorts of machines so the
student doesn't come looking for "support" (from me)
later when an update mucks something up...]

[[I'm sorely tempted to install a FOSS OS but figure that
would leave them even farther out on a limb...]]


Win10 is fine. They are being spied on constantly by all the apps
they are using on their smart phones. I can't believe the hysteria
that has been created over win10 "spying".

On 02/20/2016 01:53 PM, burfordTjustice wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 13:33:49 -0700
rbowman wrote:

On 02/20/2016 09:37 AM, Don Y wrote:
Finally, how much risk these students will later be at
(for it to reintroduce itself to their machines) as they
accept future updates.

Considering the Whack-A-Mole game you need to play to keep 10 off a 7
machine, I see no way a relatively naive user is going to avoid MS
re-introducing the spyware.

Easy Peasy"
http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/201...ly-remove.html


iirc, GWX Stopper had a series of updates as M$ found new and better
ways to whack the mole. Like Hillary Clinton, they're NEVER going to
stop trying to foist themselves off on the public.

On 02/20/2016 06:25 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 4:23 PM, philo wrote:
On 02/20/2016 03:08 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2016 1:16 PM, philo wrote:
Getting right to the point, the people I worked with were mentally
disabled, so
if they could figured things out without a problem
I bet the kids you deal with could too.

How do I create a table heading that spans two columns?
How do I set the shading for every other row to be light/dark?
How do I import this photo that I downloaded from Wikipedia
into my report?
How do I print JUST page 3 of my report?
How do I connect to the printer that my host/foster family has
installed at their house?

None of the above can be accomplished by Windows or Linux on their
own, all
that kind of stuff is dependent on which application you are using.

Exactly. The OS is just a scaffolding.

Now, how do I run Office 2K13 on Linux?



Never figured kids would need much more than a word processor.
I had no idea you were talking about running spread sheets which I
thought was college level.


Microsoft Office will need to run on Windows machines and will cost
quite bit of money. I thought you just had a small budget, but if you
have a lot of money then sure, get Win10 machines and all necessary
software.


That said, even if you have a large budget, why waste money?

You should easily be able to purchase a new machine with Win10
installed, for less money than you could build yourself and purchase the
OS separately.

It's for that very reason that I rarely build machines any more, I just
refer my friends to Dell. Thus far, zero complaints/