Other was getting disjointed w/ too many side bars and false starts,
etc., ... so thought I'd update.

Just finished cleaning up and putting new connector (threads stripped on
the old 'un getting it off) at the connection at the weatherhead. It
was somewhat corroded but not too bad so was a'feared it wasn't the
issue and turns out it wasn't--no fixie.

I can cut the power _to_ the barn but the connections on the other end
are at the hot location top of the pole before it goes down to the meter
and then back up and over to the barn. Wind is now up to the point I'm
not getting up near that until it isn't so much so--the manlift arm is
flexible enough as is so that end will have to wait.

I'm thinking it can't be it anyway, however, as there are three others
tied to it and there's not an issue in any other location excepting the
barn while it's common to all locations.

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...

--

On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

--

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 14:20:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

You must be.

I have no clue. Are these fuses those that have copper ends that snap
in? Not the screw in types. I have seen the snap in fuses burn out
slowly, weaken, still pass some voltage before they completely fail.

Just playing along to have fun

writes:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:39:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...


Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or
animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to
the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still
have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.


DBP suggested there may be a pull box (or pull el) in the
path from the weatherhead to the fusebox. That's perfectly legal.

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:39:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...


Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or
animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to
the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still
have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.

On 11/04/2015 2:46 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 14:20:43 -0600, wrote:

On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

You must be.

I have no clue. Are these fuses those that have copper ends that snap
in? Not the screw in types. I have seen the snap in fuses burn out
slowly, weaken, still pass some voltage before they completely fail.

Yeah, they're the long cartridge type as you presume....don't think
they're the problem as all the 240V circuits are fine; I've checked both
the shop and the large motors back at the feed mill and they are
perfectly happy so there's plenty of juice and current in the two hot
legs, just not the return for 120V.

Just playing along to have fun

The more the merrier... :P

--

On 11/04/2015 3:23 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:39:25 -0600, wrote:

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...


Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or
animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to
the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still
have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.


DBP suggested there may be a pull box (or pull el) in the
path from the weatherhead to the fusebox. That's perfectly legal.

Indeed, folks are full of "death and destruction" scenarios that don't
fit the actual verbiage as written...

And, I just came in from a foray in the loft--as I suspected, all there
is is the el at the top; I didn't drag a ladder over and open it but I
know Dad well enough that there won't be a splice in there...

And, the fuse/disconnect box is _not_ what painted is thinking of, either...

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I ran
the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance check on
that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do it...

--

On 11/04/2015 4:08 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:39:25 -0600, wrote:

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...


Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or
animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to
the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still
have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.

Doesn't "look" like anything to you; you ain't see'd it and you clearly
didn't follow the description and/or made an assumption it says
something it doesn't. One word reply--"nonsense".

There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's
the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the
multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but
it's possible.

Alternatively, as noted, there is something going on in that particular
run...

Or, I suppose, there could be a failure at the neutral block in the
breaker panel...that's a common point as well altho hard to see how as
I've checked the connection back to the disconnect both ends and
measured that resistance to make sure it wasn't a high resistance from a
near break or the like altho that would've been a fairly apparent heat
source which should have been observable.

--

On 11/04/2015 4:49 PM, dpb wrote:
....

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I ran
the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance check on
that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do it...

Actually, as another mentioned earlier in the other thread, simplest
diagnostic here is probably to just run a temporary direct wire back
from the breaker box neutral to the connection at the weatherhed
bypassing the other box and existing wire altogether.

--

dpb wrote:
On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between
the connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I
suppose a packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or
perhaps there's even a connection/junction box in that run they
needed to get it pulled--I've not yet done the full
probe/investigation along the route although it's straight up the
front wall of the barn thru the loft so I wouldn't think there would
have been any need. But, there is an old horse/mule feed bin in the
corner which covers up ready access/view w/o getting in and over it
so anything is possible...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

I'm having a simply marvelous F'ing time . I've been setting cement blocks .
My first go ... the advice I got here has helped .

--
Snag

Didn't you said in one posting that if you put probe on tank and other
on some kind pipe next to it that it seem to show some Voltage if
and I mean if is that the case you have TWO problems one you are
loosing ground and the other ,the heater inside of tank is leaking
and you are electrifying Water, remove power leads from heater
then check resistance between ground/tank and each individual
terminal that normally power is hook up to it, "IT SHOULD BE INFINITY"
it should show no resistance what so ever.



"dpb" wrote in message ...

On 11/04/2015 4:08 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:39:25 -0600, wrote:

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...


Looks to me like you need to do some major re-wiring, before a person or
animal dies..... The power from the weatherhead should go DIRECTLY to
the breaker/fuse panel, with no junction boxes in between. If you still
have a fuse box, it's time to upgrade anyhow.

Doesn't "look" like anything to you; you ain't see'd it and you clearly
didn't follow the description and/or made an assumption it says
something it doesn't. One word reply--"nonsense".

There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's
the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the
multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but
it's possible.

Alternatively, as noted, there is something going on in that particular
run...

Or, I suppose, there could be a failure at the neutral block in the
breaker panel...that's a common point as well altho hard to see how as
I've checked the connection back to the disconnect both ends and
measured that resistance to make sure it wasn't a high resistance from a
near break or the like altho that would've been a fairly apparent heat
source which should have been observable.

--

On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:12:42 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PS. Are we having fun yet???

I'm having a simply marvelous F'ing time . I've been setting cement blocks .
My first go ... the advice I got here has helped .

People on the East Coast of Arkansas can always learn something :-\

On 11/04/2015 5:38 PM, tony944 wrote:
Didn't you said in one posting that if you put probe on tank and other
on some kind pipe next to it that it seem to show some Voltage ...


Nope....that was some other thread entirely.

--

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:08:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 5:38 PM, tony944 wrote:
Didn't you said in one posting that if you put probe on tank and other
on some kind pipe next to it that it seem to show some Voltage ...


Nope....that was some other thread entirely.

Try using a drill or other substantial load on each 120 volt side while
monitoring the voltage on the other side to points from the neutral wire
into the panel forward along the neutral path.
No voltage change ( or very little change ) on good neutral points. Bad
neutral point should show change with load on other side.
--
Mr.E

Put a couple of 100 watt light bulbs on each side of the 240V lines to neutral. Measure the voltages, they should each be about 1/2 of the 240 line to line voltage. Then turn off one of the four bulbs, so that you still have a load on each side, but one is twice the load of the other. Measure the voltages again. The voltage across the single bulb should be well over 120V, and the voltage across the two paralleled bulbs should be well under 120V.. Do this quickly as the single bulb may burn out very quickly due to the over-voltage.

On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 7:26:39 PM UTC-5, Mr.E wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:08:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 5:38 PM, tony944 wrote:
Didn't you said in one posting that if you put probe on tank and other
on some kind pipe next to it that it seem to show some Voltage ...


Nope....that was some other thread entirely.

Try using a drill or other substantial load on each 120 volt side while
monitoring the voltage on the other side to points from the neutral wire
into the panel forward along the neutral path.
No voltage change ( or very little change ) on good neutral points. Bad
neutral point should show change with load on other side.
--
Mr.E

That's similar to what I suggested in my first post. A heater would be
a good choice for a load. I suggested just looking at voltage from hots
to neutral along the path back. At the beginning it's ~120V. At the
end it will be substantially less. Follow it back and see where it goes
wrong.

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:14:32 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:56:06 -0600, dpb wrote:


There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's
the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the
multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but
it's possible.

It's MORE than Possible! I've seen those multiple wire connections where
one of the wires is not well into the clamp (split bolt), or one cable
corroded or burnt off and you cant see it under all the tape. I actually
saw at a farm with multiple barns, where all the barns connected to one
pole, and the barns were running too many livestock fans and other stuff
on a very hot day, when all of a sudden there was a shower of sparks
falling from that pole, and one of the barns lost power while the others
still had power. I dont know if it was a hot or a neutral, but one of
the connections fried. An electrician was called.
Quite often each searate "run" will be connected to the "main
cable with it's own split bolt connector - and any one or all of them
can be affected by atmospheric conditiond, wind movement, or just
plain poor workmanship 30 years ago when they were installed.

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:08:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 4:49 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I ran
the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance check on
that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do it...

Actually, as another mentioned earlier in the other thread, simplest
diagnostic here is probably to just run a temporary direct wire back
from the breaker box neutral to the connection at the weatherhed
bypassing the other box and existing wire altogether.

Yep, I said I did this when my garage neutral had a problem. Assuming
your meter pole is not too far away, get a piece of #12 wire (or larger)
and connect it to the neutral in the meter pole main box neutral bar.
Run it to the weatherhead cable on the barn. Wrap it well around the
support wire. Turn on the power and check if you now have 120 - 0 - 120
using a few lightbilbs for a load. If it works, you know the problem is
between the meter pole and the weatherhead. If not, connect that wire
directly into the barn breaker box. If it still dont work, you have a
problem in that breaker box. You could also run that wire from the barn
weatherhead to the breaker box to see if the problem is between the
weatherhead and breaker box.

Of course this is only temporary and not for loads over 20A.

On 11/05/2015 6:56 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:14:32 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:56:06 -0600, wrote:


There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's
the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the
multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but
it's possible.

It's MORE than Possible! I've seen those multiple wire connections where
one of the wires is not well into the clamp (split bolt), or one cable
corroded or burnt off and you cant see it under all the tape. I actually
saw at a farm with multiple barns, where all the barns connected to one
pole, and the barns were running too many livestock fans and other stuff
on a very hot day, when all of a sudden there was a shower of sparks
falling from that pole, and one of the barns lost power while the others
still had power. I dont know if it was a hot or a neutral, but one of
the connections fried. An electrician was called.
Quite often each searate "run" will be connected to the "main
cable with it's own split bolt connector - and any one or all of them
can be affected by atmospheric conditiond, wind movement, or just
plain poor workmanship 30 years ago when they were installed.

Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.

But the front blew thru last night and looks like wind will be down some
today so perhaps can find the time to get to it again...altho it rained
enough with the 4+" had last week it may be a little dicey getting the
lift around; it's not articulated 2WD instead of 4 and at 12,000 lb
isn't a good mud vehicle at all...

--

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 16:56:06 -0600, dpb wrote:


There is a problem in the neutral, granted. It's still possible it's
the other end connection at the pole altho it seems peculiar with the
multiple ties at that point only one of the multiples would be bad but
it's possible.

It's MORE than Possible! I've seen those multiple wire connections where
one of the wires is not well into the clamp (split bolt), or one cable
corroded or burnt off and you cant see it under all the tape. I actually
saw at a farm with multiple barns, where all the barns connected to one
pole, and the barns were running too many livestock fans and other stuff
on a very hot day, when all of a sudden there was a shower of sparks
falling from that pole, and one of the barns lost power while the others
still had power. I dont know if it was a hot or a neutral, but one of
the connections fried. An electrician was called.

On 11/05/2015 7:09 AM, dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 6:56 AM, wrote:
....

Quite often each searate "run" will be connected to the "main
cable with it's own split bolt connector - and any one or all of them
can be affected by atmospheric conditiond, wind movement, or just
plain poor workmanship 30 years ago when they were installed.

Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.
....
without affecting another run, that is...again, almost anything (outside
putting the toothpaste back in the tube) is possible, at least
theoretically.

--

On 11/05/2015 7:02 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:08:07 -0600, wrote:

On 11/04/2015 4:49 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I ran
the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance check on
that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do it...

Actually, as another mentioned earlier in the other thread, simplest
diagnostic here is probably to just run a temporary direct wire back
from the breaker box neutral to the connection at the weatherhed
bypassing the other box and existing wire altogether.

Yep, I said I did this when my garage neutral had a problem. Assuming
your meter pole is not too far away, ...

Only 100 yds or so...

Of course this is only temporary and not for loads over 20A.

Well, DUH! Ida _never_ thunk o' that!!!

--

wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:08:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 4:49 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Wind has gotten up and it's supposed to perhaps rain tomorrow so I
ran the lift back in...looks like next step is to do a resistance
check on that run but I'll have to get back up to the top to do
it...

Actually, as another mentioned earlier in the other thread, simplest
diagnostic here is probably to just run a temporary direct wire back
from the breaker box neutral to the connection at the weatherhed
bypassing the other box and existing wire altogether.

Yep, I said I did this when my garage neutral had a problem. Assuming
your meter pole is not too far away, get a piece of #12 wire (or
larger) and connect it to the neutral in the meter pole main box
neutral bar. Run it to the weatherhead cable on the barn. Wrap it
well around the support wire. Turn on the power and check if you now
have 120 - 0 - 120 using a few lightbilbs for a load. If it works,
you know the problem is between the meter pole and the weatherhead.
If not, connect that wire directly into the barn breaker box. If it
still dont work, you have a problem in that breaker box. You could
also run that wire from the barn weatherhead to the breaker box to
see if the problem is between the weatherhead and breaker box.

Of course this is only temporary and not for loads over 20A.

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered with a few
meter readings.

On 11/05/2015 8:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
....

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered with a few
meter readings.

Excepting the access to take the readings at the locations required is
essentially the same effort...the neutral connection to the line feed is
directly to the line at the top of the meter pole; it never comes down
the pole for the remote feeds; only the hot legs are routed thru the
meter and disconnect and back up for the overhead feed across the drive
and to the silo, elevator, machine shed...the neutral feed for the house
isn't tied to those so it's independent of that connection at the top,
it's tied to another pigtail (another reason besides the taller, newer
equipment that's getting closer than comfort to the present feeder
height across the drive I'd like to eventually bury them all from the
meter pole--but that will almost certainly never happen in my lifetime).

--

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:09:50 -0600, dpb wrote:


Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.

I dont care for those crimp types, but thats what you got. I dont see
them being "less likely to fail". Assuming you have an insulated wire
crimped to the bare support wire. Remove a little insulation just before
the crimp. Take some auto jumper cables and jump across that crimp.
(with the power off). Turn power on and see if you now have a working
neutral. It would be best to tape where you removed the insulation
afterwards.

But the front blew thru last night and looks like wind will be down some
today so perhaps can find the time to get to it again...altho it rained
enough with the 4+" had last week it may be a little dicey getting the
lift around; it's not articulated 2WD instead of 4 and at 12,000 lb
isn't a good mud vehicle at all...


All that wind and it did not blow the wires enough to make contact
again. That tells you it's more than a loose connection.

If you use the jumper cables, just use either the red or the black, not
a red on one side and black on the other. I'm sure I didn't need to tell
you that!

dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 8:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
...

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered
with a few meter readings.

Excepting the access to take the readings at the locations required is
essentially the same effort...the neutral connection to the line feed
is directly to the line at the top of the meter pole; it never comes
down the pole for the remote feeds; only the hot legs are routed thru
the meter and disconnect and back up for the overhead feed across the
drive and to the silo, elevator, machine shed...the neutral feed for
the house isn't tied to those so it's independent of that connection
at the top, it's tied to another pigtail (another reason besides the
taller, newer equipment that's getting closer than comfort to the
present feeder height across the drive I'd like to eventually bury
them all from the meter pole--but that will almost certainly never
happen in my lifetime).

I imagine the neutral wire is a bare wire supporting the current carrying wires
from the pole to the barn. A wire with a stripped end could be used to check the
voltage at any point on that neutral by taping it to a long pole and touching
the bare end to the neutral wire. You could even use a temporary ground rod as a
reference if you don't have a convenient long wire for a ground reference. It
shouldn't take much of a rod in that wet soil. Do still use caution, as that
wire is likely to be somewhat "hot".

An unbalanced load at the barn should caused more voltage on an improperly
connected neutral.

If the neutral to the barn reads differently than the neutrals to other
buildings, you know where your problem is.


My guess, if you haven't found a weak link at the barn or in the low boxes at
the pole, is that the neutral fault will be where it is connected at the top of
the pole.

On 11/05/2015 10:21 AM, Bob F wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 8:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
...

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered
with a few meter readings.

Excepting the access to take the readings at the locations required is
essentially the same effort...the neutral connection to the line feed
is directly to the line at the top of the meter pole; it never comes
down the pole for the remote feeds; only the hot legs are routed thru
the meter and disconnect and back up for the overhead feed across the
drive and to the silo, elevator, machine shed...the neutral feed for
the house isn't tied to those so it's independent of that connection
at the top, it's tied to another pigtail (another reason besides the
taller, newer equipment that's getting closer than comfort to the
present feeder height across the drive I'd like to eventually bury
them all from the meter pole--but that will almost certainly never
happen in my lifetime).

I imagine the neutral wire is a bare wire supporting the current carrying wires
from the pole to the barn. A wire with a stripped end could be used to check the
voltage at any point on that neutral by taping it to a long pole and touching
the bare end to the neutral wire. You could even use a temporary ground rod as a
reference if you don't have a convenient long wire for a ground reference. It
shouldn't take much of a rod in that wet soil. Do still use caution, as that
wire is likely to be somewhat "hot".

An unbalanced load at the barn should caused more voltage on an improperly
connected neutral.

If the neutral to the barn reads differently than the neutrals to other
buildings, you know where your problem is.


My guess, if you haven't found a weak link at the barn or in the low boxes at
the pole, is that the neutral fault will be where it is connected at the top of
the pole.

That's my surmise at the moment, too...the symptom in the barn is that
under every loading I've tried on all 120V circuits, the voltage split
is the same (no imbalance), simply low current flow from lack of
ampacity. The lights are all uniformly a little dim, bright enough
can't see the actual filament but a glowing ball around them rather than
full bright, a motor tries but can't start...

Hence, since there isn't an imbalance it has to be in the common leg,
not a neutral in a branch. As strange as it seems to me, I suppose by
process of elimination already I've gotten back to the fact it has to be
that connection and somehow this one neutral out of the total of four
has the issue...

There's an extra lug position at the ground box neutral bar and I've a
roll of #10 so I think I'll just do the bypass direct to prove it before
getting up there later on this afternoon if wind stays down...

Thanks for the "trick" idea; it's high enough it'd be pretty unwieldy
stick but it's doable if it comes to that...I hadn't actually thought of
doing it that way primarily 'cuz at the near end at the pole the
connections are close enough to the hots I'm reluctant to try to reach
up there w/ a 25-ft anything...

--


--

On 11/05/2015 10:10 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:09:50 -0600, wrote:


Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.

I dont care for those crimp types, but thats what you got. I dont see
them being "less likely to fail". ...

A single connection, sure...but there is more than the one from the barn
to the line pigtail in there and the others _in_the_same_crimp_ don't
have an issue. I'm having a hard time imagining that physically.

--

On 11/05/2015 11:41 AM, dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 10:10 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:09:50 -0600, wrote:


Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.

I dont care for those crimp types, but thats what you got. I dont see
them being "less likely to fail". ...

A single connection, sure...but there is more than the one from the barn
to the line pigtail in there and the others _in_the_same_crimp_ don't
have an issue. I'm having a hard time imagining that physically.

These are an unusual crimp I've not seen elsewhere...they apparently had
a multi-faced die as the shape of the finished crimp isn't just
round...I suppose some hot then new gizmo tool of the time.

--

Oren posted for all of us...



On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 14:20:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/04/2015 1:39 PM, dpb wrote:
...

Hence, it's coming down to there must be something going on between the
connection in the disconnect/fuse box and the weatherhead--I suppose a
packrat or some other varmint coulda' done something or perhaps there's
even a connection/junction box in that run they needed to get it
pulled--I've not yet done the full probe/investigation along the route
although it's straight up the front wall of the barn thru the loft so I
wouldn't think there would have been any need. But, there is an old
horse/mule feed bin in the corner which covers up ready access/view w/o
getting in and over it so anything is possible...

PS. Are we having fun yet???

You must be.

I have no clue. Are these fuses those that have copper ends that snap
in? Not the screw in types. I have seen the snap in fuses burn out
slowly, weaken, still pass some voltage before they completely fail.

Just playing along to have fun

+1 What Oren posted. Plus the fuse holders get overheated and then don't
hold the fuse securely. Then they sizzle and snap and smell, if you are
lucky.

--
Tekkie

Oren posted for all of us...



On Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:12:42 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

PS. Are we having fun yet???

I'm having a simply marvelous F'ing time . I've been setting cement blocks .
My first go ... the advice I got here has helped .

People on the East Coast of Arkansas can always learn something :-\

The West coast not so good?

--
Tekkie

On 11/05/2015 1:58 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Oren posted for all of us...
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 14:20:43 -0600, wrote:
....

PS. Are we having fun yet???

You must be.

I have no clue. Are these fuses those that have copper ends that snap
in? Not the screw in types. I have seen the snap in fuses burn out
slowly, weaken, still pass some voltage before they completely fail.

Just playing along to have fun

+1 What Oren posted. Plus the fuse holders get overheated and then don't
hold the fuse securely. Then they sizzle and snap and smell, if you are
lucky.

Mayhaps sometimes, but not the problem here....symptoms like that would
be quite observable if nothing else in something other than bright and
shiny contacts which have verified are so. Plus, have 240V.

--

On 11/05/2015 11:41 AM, dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 10:10 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:09:50 -0600, wrote:


Those are crimped; REA ran them. Doesn't mean one can't have failed,
just less likely methinks.

I dont care for those crimp types, but thats what you got. I dont see
them being "less likely to fail". ...

A single connection, sure...but there is more than the one from the barn
to the line pigtail in there and the others _in_the_same_crimp_ don't
have an issue. I'm having a hard time imagining that physically.

Well, turns out we were both sorta' right and sorta' wrong!

When I got off the ground and up there I could then see what was hidden
from the ground--the others in that big group _are_ in the funky crimp;
the barn however is alone with a conventional split nut. From the
ground that wasn't visible at all.

Turns out that connection had been loose for quite some time and had
sufficient corrosion built up to cause the problem. Took some fine
scotchbrite pad material up w/ me and unstranded the loose end and
polished them up, did what could on outer surface of the other splice
area and used a new connector and voila! all is well.

Surely glad have the lift; a neighbor fell from a ladder and was killed
just last week in his barn/shed retrieving some things was going to
donate to fundraising auction being held for his grandson of about 5
who's been in Denver for last 2 years undergoing treatment for brain
tumor...no good deed goes unpunished, apparently.

Anyway, to finish this off, it was, in the end, pretty mundane having
started with my brain cramp of not thinking of the mechanical carrier
cable being the neutral--one of those "know better, just not thinking"
moments.

--

dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 10:21 AM, Bob F wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 8:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
...

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered
with a few meter readings.

Excepting the access to take the readings at the locations required
is essentially the same effort...the neutral connection to the line
feed is directly to the line at the top of the meter pole; it never
comes down the pole for the remote feeds; only the hot legs are
routed thru the meter and disconnect and back up for the overhead
feed across the drive and to the silo, elevator, machine shed...the
neutral feed for the house isn't tied to those so it's independent
of that connection at the top, it's tied to another pigtail
(another reason besides the taller, newer equipment that's getting
closer than comfort to the present feeder height across the drive
I'd like to eventually bury them all from the meter pole--but that
will almost certainly never happen in my lifetime).

I imagine the neutral wire is a bare wire supporting the current
carrying wires from the pole to the barn. A wire with a stripped end
could be used to check the voltage at any point on that neutral by
taping it to a long pole and touching the bare end to the neutral
wire. You could even use a temporary ground rod as a reference if
you don't have a convenient long wire for a ground reference. It
shouldn't take much of a rod in that wet soil. Do still use caution,
as that wire is likely to be somewhat "hot". An unbalanced load at the barn
should caused more voltage on an
improperly connected neutral.

If the neutral to the barn reads differently than the neutrals to
other buildings, you know where your problem is.


My guess, if you haven't found a weak link at the barn or in the
low boxes at the pole, is that the neutral fault will be where it is
connected at the top of the pole.

That's my surmise at the moment, too...the symptom in the barn is that
under every loading I've tried on all 120V circuits, the voltage split
is the same (no imbalance), simply low current flow from lack of
ampacity. The lights are all uniformly a little dim, bright enough
can't see the actual filament but a glowing ball around them rather
than full bright, a motor tries but can't start...

Hence, since there isn't an imbalance it has to be in the common leg,
not a neutral in a branch. As strange as it seems to me, I suppose by
process of elimination already I've gotten back to the fact it has to
be that connection and somehow this one neutral out of the total of
four has the issue...

There's an extra lug position at the ground box neutral bar and I've a
roll of #10 so I think I'll just do the bypass direct to prove it
before getting up there later on this afternoon if wind stays down...

Thanks for the "trick" idea; it's high enough it'd be pretty unwieldy
stick but it's doable if it comes to that...I hadn't actually thought
of doing it that way primarily 'cuz at the near end at the pole the
connections are close enough to the hots I'm reluctant to try to reach
up there w/ a 25-ft anything...

The hots should be well insullated, either with the origional wire insulation or
with tape over the connections. Otherwise, the wires wrapped around the bare
neutral would present a problem.

dpb wrote:

Surely glad have the lift; a neighbor fell from a ladder and was
killed just last week in his barn/shed retrieving some things was
going to donate to fundraising auction being held for his grandson of
about 5 who's been in Denver for last 2 years undergoing treatment
for brain tumor...no good deed goes unpunished, apparently.

Having such a lift is clearly cheating.

The advantage of being a tool junky?

On 11/05/2015 4:28 PM, Bob F wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 10:21 AM, Bob F wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2015 8:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
...

Sounds like a lot of trouble for a question that can be answered
with a few meter readings.

Excepting the access to take the readings at the locations required
is essentially the same effort...the neutral connection to the line
feed is directly to the line at the top of the meter pole; it never
comes down the pole for the remote feeds; only the hot legs are
routed thru the meter and disconnect and back up for the overhead
feed across the drive and to the silo, elevator, machine shed...the
neutral feed for the house isn't tied to those so it's independent
of that connection at the top, it's tied to another pigtail
(another reason besides the taller, newer equipment that's getting
closer than comfort to the present feeder height across the drive
I'd like to eventually bury them all from the meter pole--but that
will almost certainly never happen in my lifetime).

I imagine the neutral wire is a bare wire supporting the current
carrying wires from the pole to the barn. A wire with a stripped end
could be used to check the voltage at any point on that neutral by
taping it to a long pole and touching the bare end to the neutral
wire. You could even use a temporary ground rod as a reference if
you don't have a convenient long wire for a ground reference. It
shouldn't take much of a rod in that wet soil. Do still use caution,
as that wire is likely to be somewhat "hot". An unbalanced load at the barn
should caused more voltage on an
improperly connected neutral.

If the neutral to the barn reads differently than the neutrals to
other buildings, you know where your problem is.


My guess, if you haven't found a weak link at the barn or in the
low boxes at the pole, is that the neutral fault will be where it is
connected at the top of the pole.

That's my surmise at the moment, too...the symptom in the barn is that
under every loading I've tried on all 120V circuits, the voltage split
is the same (no imbalance), simply low current flow from lack of
ampacity. The lights are all uniformly a little dim, bright enough
can't see the actual filament but a glowing ball around them rather
than full bright, a motor tries but can't start...

Hence, since there isn't an imbalance it has to be in the common leg,
not a neutral in a branch. As strange as it seems to me, I suppose by
process of elimination already I've gotten back to the fact it has to
be that connection and somehow this one neutral out of the total of
four has the issue...

There's an extra lug position at the ground box neutral bar and I've a
roll of #10 so I think I'll just do the bypass direct to prove it
before getting up there later on this afternoon if wind stays down...

Thanks for the "trick" idea; it's high enough it'd be pretty unwieldy
stick but it's doable if it comes to that...I hadn't actually thought
of doing it that way primarily 'cuz at the near end at the pole the
connections are close enough to the hots I'm reluctant to try to reach
up there w/ a 25-ft anything...

The hots should be well insullated, either with the origional wire insulation or
with tape over the connections. Otherwise, the wires wrapped around the bare
neutral would present a problem.

"Should" is the operative word there... But, no, they're actually
not (and appear never were). They're arranged far enough below and
apart from each other they have no risk of touching either each other or
the neutral but I'm not reaching up in there from that distance even
though they're both "just" 120V relative to ground when there's that
much current potential behind it, no thanks. I'm not that steady any
longer and while I've passed "official" retirement age I'd just as soon
have a few more b-days, thank you.

Anyway, I cut the feed and figured as how from all the previous "had
dones" it just about had to be that end. As noted in another earlier
follow-up the connection at that end was loose and had corroded.
Cleaned it up and used a new connector and all is well again...

--

On 11/05/2015 4:31 PM, Bob F wrote:
dpb wrote:

Surely glad have the lift; a neighbor fell from a ladder and was
killed just last week in his barn/shed retrieving some things was
going to donate to fundraising auction being held for his grandson of
about 5 who's been in Denver for last 2 years undergoing treatment
for brain tumor...no good deed goes unpunished, apparently.

Having such a lift is clearly cheating.

The advantage of being a tool junky?

To a minor degree, I suppose can put it down to that but in reality when
we came back to the family farm after Dad had passed away very
unexpectedly, he had decided many years prior that wasn't going to put
any more money into the old barn so it hadn't been reroofed in probably
60 years. I couldn't stand the thought of letting it go so we put on a
new (wood) roof and did a considerable amount of other structural repair
ending up w/ repainting.

Since it's 42 ft to the main ridge and ground footprint is 38x68 and has
a 1:1 lower pitch gambrel with 1:2 upper, I couldn't see schlepping all
those shingles by hand. So, I started looking and just happened to be a
JLG 40H in Chicago for under $5K so I took a chance....it's now been
12-13 yr since and other than a head gasket that was leaking a little
when got it and a couple of replacement proportional controls and two
cylinder seal kits, it's been a godsend for many tasks besides just the
roofing.

I hired a fella' when we started that project and we bolted a 16-ft "L"
of 2x12 to the front of the bucket that could "land" on the roof. We'd
start by filling the basket w/ as many bundles as could and still get
the two of us in, head up and then we could each start from one end of
the walkboard and meet in the middle, then go up a few rows and start
over. By the time we finished that set we were well ready for a break.

Took from early Sept when we began the first cleaning and tearoff until
about the first of the year to get it done w/ almost exclusively the two
of us. Some friends/family came out during pheasant season and some
other weekends and helped a little, but their actual amount of
contribution was pretty minimal... But, they were good diversion;
were glad to have 'em at the time.

--

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 18:38:35 -0600, wrote:

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:21:24 -0600, dpb wrote:

Surely glad have the lift; a neighbor fell from a ladder and was killed
just last week in his barn/shed retrieving some things was going to
donate to fundraising auction being held for his grandson of about 5
who's been in Denver for last 2 years undergoing treatment for brain
tumor...no good deed goes unpunished, apparently.

I have the knowledge and ability to do most any electrical stuff, but I
dont have a lift. I refuse to go on a pole with a ladder. Safety is one
reason, fear of heights is the other. I'd rather pay someone to do it.

Anyway, to finish this off, it was, in the end, pretty mundane having
started with my brain cramp of not thinking of the mechanical carrier
cable being the neutral--one of those "know better, just not thinking"
moments.

--

That cable is called TRIPLEX. 2 insulated, 1 bare support wire.
That support wire is very strong and I've wrecked several cutters trying
to cut it. I dont know what kind of metal they use, but it's hard to
cut. An angle grinder is probably the best cutting tool.

The local power company uses type ACSR as the neutral/grounded
messenger. This translates as Aluminum Conductors with Steel
Reinforcement. Damn hard cut!





By the way, you said that lift weighs 12,000 lbs. Are they really that
heavy? That's 6 tons and is one huge machine..... I've never owned or
used one of them.
--
Mr.E

On Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:21:24 -0600, dpb wrote:


Well, turns out we were both sorta' right and sorta' wrong!

When I got off the ground and up there I could then see what was hidden
from the ground--the others in that big group _are_ in the funky crimp;
the barn however is alone with a conventional split nut. From the
ground that wasn't visible at all.

Turns out that connection had been loose for quite some time and had
sufficient corrosion built up to cause the problem. Took some fine
scotchbrite pad material up w/ me and unstranded the loose end and
polished them up, did what could on outer surface of the other splice
area and used a new connector and voila! all is well.

Surely glad have the lift; a neighbor fell from a ladder and was killed
just last week in his barn/shed retrieving some things was going to
donate to fundraising auction being held for his grandson of about 5
who's been in Denver for last 2 years undergoing treatment for brain
tumor...no good deed goes unpunished, apparently.

Anyway, to finish this off, it was, in the end, pretty mundane having
started with my brain cramp of not thinking of the mechanical carrier
cable being the neutral--one of those "know better, just not thinking"
moments.


Congratulations !!!
You finally found the problem.

Did you use that grease that's supposed to prevent corrosion?
(I dont recall the name of it).
If not, I'd tape it real well to prevent future corrosion. Rubber tape
is recommended over the common "electrical tape". Then you wrap over the
rubber tape with the common stuff to keep it fron unwrapping.

The connector being loose caused arcing which just caused more corrosion
to occur.

wrote in message
...
By the way, you said that lift weighs 12,000 lbs. Are they really that
heavy? That's 6 tons and is one huge machine..... I've never owned or
used one of them.


That is what the manual says.

https://csapps.jlg.com/OnlineManuals...SI_English.pdf

Where I worked we had one that would go about 60 feet and another one made
by Mark Lift that went to about 60 feet. When you get the boom out that far
at around 45 deg and around 600 pounds on them (think that is what one was
rated at) you want a lot of weight holding it down.

I have driven and used both of them lots of fun at 20 or 30 feet, but at 60
feet it gets some what shakey when moving the bucket around.
I only used them about 5 or 6 times a year, so not enough to get
comfortable while the boom is all the way out.