OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of
excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible
to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I
can't figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--

On 11/3/2015 9:59 AM, dpb wrote:
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of
excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible
to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I
can't figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--


I'm not an electrician. But, if you're using a
ground to carry current, you are probably illegal
and you are definitely unsafe.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"dpb" wrote in message ...
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's enough
to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and outlets
measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc. Clearly
it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of excessively
dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible to
be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I can't
figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--

What are you doing depending on a ground rod to carry the current that a
neutral wire should be used for ?

YOu should have at the least 3 wires and really 4 wires comming from the
house (or whever the power is comming from) going to the barn. If you do
have 3 wires or more, the neutral wire is broken or a bad connection
somewhere.

On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message ...
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's enough
to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and outlets
measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc. Clearly
it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of excessively
dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible to
be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I can't
figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--

What are you doing depending on a ground rod to carry the current that a
neutral wire should be used for ?

YOu should have at the least 3 wires and really 4 wires comming from the
house (or whever the power is comming from) going to the barn. If you do
have 3 wires or more, the neutral wire is broken or a bad connection
somewhere.

Early '50s installation 3-wire; nobody ever heard of 4-wire back then.

The neutral is tied to the ground, of course.

It's that there's a direct connection from the box bypassing the
connection/path that's been there since day one that runs back up the
entrance conduit to the weatherhead at the roofline and comes back down
to the ground rod that I bypassed to verify the connection at that point
wasn't the failure. It's about 30 ft off the ground so not that
convenient if can otherwise eliminate it as the issue.

Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.

--


--

On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, dpb wrote:
....

Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.

Oh, actually, it dawns...the neutral is the carrier cable from the pole
overhead over the driveway from the meter...they're all three tied at
that connection up there; the return from the panel, the ground and the
carrier/neutral REA strung.

That connection back to their neutral may be the culprit or I suppose
it's possible the neutral connection at the junction box past the meter
could be it altho that's the same box that splits off the house and
other shop that we were in to isolate the aforementioned underground
feed and those connections all looked pristine -- amazed me how
clean/bright/shiny they were after at least 30 year (I _think_ Dad
pulled new from there to the house/shop when they redid the grandparents
house in the mid-70s altho that was in the time period was in TN so
wasn't around). I think the feed to the barn/feedlots (a second run
from the same pole to another branch box for the silo unloader and the
feedlot waterers, lights, etc.) was run earlier in the very early 60s
when put in the feed mill in the back of the barn and built the lots.
Don't believe there's any chance those were re-run when the house was
but it's also possible they did the house and all when that was done all
in "one swell foop"; I cannot remember for certain even though was still
at home then...

--

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 10:21:48 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message ...
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's enough
to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and outlets
measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc. Clearly
it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of excessively
dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible to
be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I can't
figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--

What are you doing depending on a ground rod to carry the current that a
neutral wire should be used for ?

YOu should have at the least 3 wires and really 4 wires comming from the
house (or whever the power is comming from) going to the barn. If you do
have 3 wires or more, the neutral wire is broken or a bad connection
somewhere.

Early '50s installation 3-wire; nobody ever heard of 4-wire back then.

The neutral is tied to the ground, of course.

It's that there's a direct connection from the box bypassing the
connection/path that's been there since day one that runs back up the
entrance conduit to the weatherhead at the roofline and comes back down
to the ground rod that I bypassed to verify the connection at that point
wasn't the failure. It's about 30 ft off the ground so not that
convenient if can otherwise eliminate it as the issue.

Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.


Presumably when larger loads are put on it, the voltage drops.
So, get a heater or similar, and plug it in. Then start measuring
voltages from hot to neutral, tracing back. At the heater it will
be well below 120V. Someplace up the chain it will be 120V, normal.
Then between the two, apparently something is wrong with the neutral.
The neutral current is in a conductor and it should not be a ground
rod problem.

On 11/03/2015 9:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 10:21:48 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message ...
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's enough
to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and outlets
measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc. Clearly
it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of excessively
dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible to
be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I can't
figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--

What are you doing depending on a ground rod to carry the current that a
neutral wire should be used for ?

YOu should have at the least 3 wires and really 4 wires comming from the
house (or whever the power is comming from) going to the barn. If you do
have 3 wires or more, the neutral wire is broken or a bad connection
somewhere.

Early '50s installation 3-wire; nobody ever heard of 4-wire back then.

The neutral is tied to the ground, of course.

It's that there's a direct connection from the box bypassing the
connection/path that's been there since day one that runs back up the
entrance conduit to the weatherhead at the roofline and comes back down
to the ground rod that I bypassed to verify the connection at that point
wasn't the failure. It's about 30 ft off the ground so not that
convenient if can otherwise eliminate it as the issue.

Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.


Presumably when larger loads are put on it, the voltage drops.
So, get a heater or similar, and plug it in. Then start measuring
voltages from hot to neutral, tracing back. At the heater it will
be well below 120V. Someplace up the chain it will be 120V, normal.
Then between the two, apparently something is wrong with the neutral.
The neutral current is in a conductor and it should not be a ground
rod problem.

Yeah, see my followup that apparently crossed in the ether...but it's
got to be in the path from the box back to the feed, not in front as all
circuits inside the barn are affected. Hence it almost has to be that
connection I didn't want to have to get up to (but I do have a manlift
so it's not _that_ hard to get up there; it's just close to the feed and
there's no isolation w/o cutting off the house, too, which I was hoping
not to have to do again.

Not sure why had the brain cramp that neutral; I suppose because I
just wasn't thinking of the support cable also serving as the neutral
conductor.

--

On 11/3/2015 10:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Presumably when larger loads are put on it, the voltage drops.
So, get a heater or similar, and plug it in. Then start measuring
voltages from hot to neutral, tracing back. At the heater it will
be well below 120V. Someplace up the chain it will be 120V, normal.
Then between the two, apparently something is wrong with the neutral.
The neutral current is in a conductor and it should not be a ground
rod problem.


OP did mention some 220 volt loads which work fine,
which suggests it's a problem with the neutral.

What comes to mind, here, is for the OP to check
the neutral line, and look for open or corroded
connections. Figuring of course, that there "is"
a neutral. With his mention of three wire, might
be two hots and a ground.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

dpb wrote:
On 11/03/2015 9:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 10:21:48 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old
barn over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new
and all seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is
back--there's enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite
full intensity and outlets measure full 125V but not enough
current to power motors, etc. Clearly it's the ground as all the
240V gear is fully functional. It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod
can have gone south so
quickly and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the
case of excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the
circuit box to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in
the symptoms. It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though
not
possible to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the
life of me I can't figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up
calling the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find
a broken underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too
bad the symptom hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had
him take a look then. --

What are you doing depending on a ground rod to carry the current
that a neutral wire should be used for ?

YOu should have at the least 3 wires and really 4 wires comming
from the house (or whever the power is comming from) going to the
barn. If you do have 3 wires or more, the neutral wire is broken
or a bad connection somewhere.

Early '50s installation 3-wire; nobody ever heard of 4-wire back
then. The neutral is tied to the ground, of course.

It's that there's a direct connection from the box bypassing the
connection/path that's been there since day one that runs back up
the entrance conduit to the weatherhead at the roofline and comes
back down to the ground rod that I bypassed to verify the
connection at that point wasn't the failure. It's about 30 ft off
the ground so not that convenient if can otherwise eliminate it as
the issue. Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.


Presumably when larger loads are put on it, the voltage drops.
So, get a heater or similar, and plug it in. Then start measuring
voltages from hot to neutral, tracing back. At the heater it will
be well below 120V. Someplace up the chain it will be 120V, normal.
Then between the two, apparently something is wrong with the neutral.
The neutral current is in a conductor and it should not be a ground
rod problem.

Yeah, see my followup that apparently crossed in the ether...but it's
got to be in the path from the box back to the feed, not in front as
all circuits inside the barn are affected. Hence it almost has to be
that connection I didn't want to have to get up to (but I do have a
manlift so it's not _that_ hard to get up there; it's just close to
the feed and there's no isolation w/o cutting off the house, too,
which I was hoping not to have to do again.

Not sure why had the brain cramp that neutral; I suppose because I
just wasn't thinking of the support cable also serving as the neutral
conductor.

If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

OP did mention some 220 volt loads which work fine,
which suggests it's a problem with the neutral.

What comes to mind, here, is for the OP to check
the neutral line, and look for open or corroded
connections. Figuring of course, that there "is"
a neutral. With his mention of three wire, might
be two hots and a ground.

With old circuits it is hard to say what they did. It could have been the
barn was only wired for 240 volts and no neutral. Then someone may have
wanted 120 volts so they used the origional ground for the neutral. Or it
could have been wired like the old stove circuits in a house. Only 3 wires
where the neutral and ground were the same wire.

Any way, he should quit fooling around with the ground rod and look at what
is beind down with the neutral.

I think we are all in agreement that there must be a problem with the
neutral. Either it is not used and depending on the ground, which is a very
bad idea, or there is a bad or missing connection on the neutral wire.

On 11/03/2015 10:30 AM, Bob F wrote:
....

If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.

That would be the meter pole where the feeds to the
barn/feedlots/elevator and the house all diverge...I guess I didn't put
a meter on it but there's no tingle or any sptizen'/sparkzen' in all the
messing around I've done with it while hanging loose checking brightness
of connections, doing the bypass, etc., etc., etc., ... oh, altho that's
the feed end from the barn internals; all I did on the feed in the feed
panel was check the tightness; didn't actually pull that end free.

OK, I've got a plan now; gotta' meetin' in town now so will be this
afternoon when get back and can go finger it out.

Seems likely it was simply a brain cramp earlier and laying it out as so
often does makes it clearer...

--

If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.


If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded together at ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main box in the house that is fed by the meter.

The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main box in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the house and doesn't have it's own meter).

If you have problems with 120 loads but 240 loads are OK, then you have an open neutral. Don't try to solve that by bonding it to the ground. Find the open and correct it.

Mark

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:

If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.


If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded together at ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main box in the house that is fed by the meter.

The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main box in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the house and doesn't have it's own meter).



That's true for circuits today and at least a few decades back.
Ancient ones, which we may be dealing with here, before outlets
even had grounds, IDK..... But it does sound like the barn has
it's own ground rod. And I think the feeder to the garage only
has two hots and neutral, ie there is no additional and separate
ground wire back to the house. I'm sure GFRE can fill us in on
what's kosher both then and now.




If you have problems with 120 loads but 240 loads are OK, then you have an open neutral. Don't try to solve that by bonding it to the ground. Find the open and correct it.

Mark

On 11/03/2015 2:19 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:59:20 -0600, wrote:


Yeah, see my followup that apparently crossed in the ether...but it's
got to be in the path from the box back to the feed, not in front as all
circuits inside the barn are affected. Hence it almost has to be that
connection I didn't want to have to get up to (but I do have a manlift
so it's not _that_ hard to get up there; it's just close to the feed and
there's no isolation w/o cutting off the house, too, which I was hoping
not to have to do again.

Not sure why had the brain cramp that neutral; I suppose because I
just wasn't thinking of the support cable also serving as the neutral
conductor.

I have a similar setup. There is a main disconnect on the meter pole,
and from that panel, there are three power lines.

*One to the house, (underground)
*One to the barn, and some sheds. (overhead triplex)
*One to the garage and some sheds nearby. (overhead triplex)

Quite similar with a total of five here; I left of a couple of others to
the other group of sheds and the machine shed (this is a operating
farmstead, not just a few acres outside town).

Some years ago, my garage power went bonkers. It began when I could not
run a Skil saw. It turned real slow or just hummed. While several
lightbulbs burned out as well as my destroying a radio and my cordless
drill charger. A meter indicated my lighting circuit was getting 240V as
well as the radio and charger outlets. Yet, the outlet where I plugged
in the Skil saw was only getting (under 120V), which varied by turning
on other loads. Yet, the 240V well pump is connected to the garage, and
it worked fine.
....[part of story elided for brevity]...
Since I'm not comfortable going up on the poles, I called an
electrician. He checked everything on the meter pole and said that was
OK. Then he went to the garage pole and found the neutral connection was
loose and corroded. He replaced that connection and I asked him to check
the other two wires too. (they were fine).

Problem solved!!!!

This has to be one of the two connections, yes. Altho had no neutral in
the well house years ago when we moved back after Dad passed away;
turned out it was an actual break on the top of the last pole before the
feed went underground in the neutral pigtail going down; apparently wind
fatigue had finally done it in; probably had had a knick from the day it
was installed. That run probably dated from the initial REA run in 1948.

I had the manlift by then so didn't have to actually climb the
pole...most convenient!

By the way, you said your ground wires goes to the weatherhead. That's
not right. Your ground rod should have a #6 bare wire that goes from the
rod, directly into the panel. You normally just drill a 1/4" hole in the
wall, and run that wire indoors to the panel. Then caulk around that
wire where it goes thru the wall, to prevent water from coming in.

It's not convenient with the layout to do that; Dad simply routed it up
under the eaves and down the weatherhead instead of thru the wall and
inside. The route is ok...

--

On 11/03/2015 1:07 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:

If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.

House has nothing to do with it...it's a totally separate feed...the
split comes at the pole and they all feed from that location -- there
are five destinations total (I only enumerated three earlier; only the
barn is bad which limits the locations of a common connection).

If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded
together at ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main
box in thehouse that is fed by the meter.

Again you're assuming a residential house in town arrangement w/ a
little shed or something...this is working farmstead; the meter's on the
pole and everything on the east half of the place is spread from there.
(There's another meter on the west that feeds the well and other parts
of the homestead besides).


The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main
box in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the
house and doesn't have it's own meter).

You're assuming wrong again; that _is_ the ground, not at the house...

That's true for circuits today and at least a few decades back.
Ancient ones, which we may be dealing with here, before outlets
even had grounds, IDK..... But it does sound like the barn has
it's own ground rod.

See above...the original feeds and many of the old smaller outbuildings
are still two-wire service, indeed; the larger outbuildings including
the barn were pulled w/ 3-wire service in the early 60s or thereabouts
so they are 3-wire.

--

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 2:39:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:33:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:


If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded together at
ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main box in the house
that is fed by the meter.

The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main box
in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the
house and doesn't have it's own meter).

As I said in a prior message, I have a meter pole that feds three
separate places (House, barn, garage). Each has a separate MAIN
disconnect panel. Each has ground rods, which are connected to the
neutral inside these panels. Also, there is a ground rod at the meter
pole too.

This is an older system so it may not be up to today's code
requirements. The house is the only panel that has a separate buss bar
for the ground and neutral. But that panel was replaced about three
years ago, when I rewired the house.

But as far as I know, every MAIN Disconnect needs ground rods, but
according to today's standards, these should NOT be connected to the
neutral. But in older systems that was not the case, and those panels
did not have separate buss bars for the ground.

The neutral and grounding system are most definitely tied together at
the main panel. The neutral and ground are separate at a subpanel.

On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:59:20 -0600, dpb wrote:


Yeah, see my followup that apparently crossed in the ether...but it's
got to be in the path from the box back to the feed, not in front as all
circuits inside the barn are affected. Hence it almost has to be that
connection I didn't want to have to get up to (but I do have a manlift
so it's not _that_ hard to get up there; it's just close to the feed and
there's no isolation w/o cutting off the house, too, which I was hoping
not to have to do again.

Not sure why had the brain cramp that neutral; I suppose because I
just wasn't thinking of the support cable also serving as the neutral
conductor.

I have a similar setup. There is a main disconnect on the meter pole,
and from that panel, there are three power lines.

*One to the house, (underground)
*One to the barn, and some sheds. (overhead triplex)
*One to the garage and some sheds nearby. (overhead triplex)

Some years ago, my garage power went bonkers. It began when I could not
run a Skil saw. It turned real slow or just hummed. While several
lightbulbs burned out as well as my destroying a radio and my cordless
drill charger. A meter indicated my lighting circuit was getting 240V as
well as the radio and charger outlets. Yet, the outlet where I plugged
in the Skil saw was only getting (under 120V), which varied by turning
on other loads. Yet, the 240V well pump is connected to the garage, and
it worked fine.

I knew it was the neutral, but the old triplex was way up on a pole next
to the garage. It looked like everything was intact (from standing below
the pole), but I'm not good with heights and was not climbing to the top
of that pole. To confirm my suspicion about a bad ground, I happened to
have a roll of about 150ft of romex on hand. I laid it across the lawn,
and connected all of the wires from the meter pole neutral bar, to the
neutral bar in the garage. Immediately, everything worked normally.

I shut off all the power at that meter pole. Then I carefully checked
the connections that feed that garage, and tightened all the connections
in that panel. Then I went up to the garage, did the same in that
breaker box. I proceeded to the garage weather head, and removed the
tape on the neutral connection. I cleaned all the wires, replaced the
split bolt and re-taped. (yea, that's the support wire). I decided to
clean up the power wires there too, and took them apart and cleaned /
re-taped.

None of this solved the problem, so I knew the problem was up on one of
the two poles (the garage pole, or the meter pole).

Since I'm not comfortable going up on the poles, I called an
electrician. He checked everything on the meter pole and said that was
OK. Then he went to the garage pole and found the neutral connection was
loose and corroded. He replaced that connection and I asked him to check
the other two wires too. (they were fine).

Problem solved!!!!

---

By the way, you said your ground wires goes to the weatherhead. That's
not right. Your ground rod should have a #6 bare wire that goes from the
rod, directly into the panel. You normally just drill a 1/4" hole in the
wall, and run that wire indoors to the panel. Then caulk around that
wire where it goes thru the wall, to prevent water from coming in.

On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:33:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:


If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded together at
ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main box in the house
that is fed by the meter.

The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main box
in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the
house and doesn't have it's own meter).

As I said in a prior message, I have a meter pole that feds three
separate places (House, barn, garage). Each has a separate MAIN
disconnect panel. Each has ground rods, which are connected to the
neutral inside these panels. Also, there is a ground rod at the meter
pole too.

This is an older system so it may not be up to today's code
requirements. The house is the only panel that has a separate buss bar
for the ground and neutral. But that panel was replaced about three
years ago, when I rewired the house.

But as far as I know, every MAIN Disconnect needs ground rods, but
according to today's standards, these should NOT be connected to the
neutral. But in older systems that was not the case, and those panels
did not have separate buss bars for the ground.

probably best to call the power company to make certain the problem isnt on their end.

when i was a kid, a gazillion years ago the neighborhood power transformer had a problem, eventually it caught on fire.

then everyones wierd problems went away...... after power company replaced transformer

On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 13:48:11 -0600, dpb wrote:


Quite similar with a total of five here; I left of a couple of others to
the other group of sheds and the machine shed (this is a operating
farmstead, not just a few acres outside town).

This is a farm too. Most of the people on this newsgroup live in cities
and are not familiar with this "typical" farm setup, with a meter pole
being the source to feed all the buildings.

One of the "sheds" I referred to, is a second barn, but a small one,
just to house some livestock when needed. It's near the garage. To
eliminate another MAIN panel, I just ran two strands of 12-2 w gnd UF
cable underground from the garage to that barn. It's only for lights and
an occasional power tool or stock tank heater in winter, so those two
20A circuits suffice. I ran those cables thru underground plastic PVC
conduit in case I ever need to add another circuit. I was told there
should be a disconnect in that barn, but the garage panel is only 25
feet away. And since i now changed the six lightbulbs to LED, there is
hardly any power used in that barn.

On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 08:59:29 -0600, dpb wrote:

OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of
excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible
to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I
can't figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.
You still on an earth return system with no neutral??? Check your
voltage right at the pole. If it is good there, run a neutral wire and
don't cepend on the ground, which will give you terrible "stray
voltage" problems.

On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:33:34 -0800 (PST), wrote:



If the bare neutral shows voltage at the barn, check it's connections at/in the
house.


If I'm not mistaken, the ground and neutral should be bonded together at ONLY ONE place in the system and that is at the main box in the house that is fed by the meter.

The ground and neutral should NOT be bonded together at the main box in the barn or at any other place. (I'm assuming the barn is fed by the house and doesn't have it's own meter).

If you have problems with 120 loads but 240 loads are OK, then you have an open neutral. Don't try to solve that by bonding it to the ground. Find the open and correct it.

Mark


The house and barn are both fed from the "pole" - where the meter and
the main disconnect are, in most REA installations, and most rural
installations even today. The neutral and ground should be bonded at
the pole. At least that's how I've always seen it. Should not need
another ground at the barn or the house. - just going from memeory

dpb wrote in :

OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

No, very clearly it is *not* the ground. It's the neutral.

Ground and neutral are not the same thing -- and if you don't understand this, you have no
business monkeying around with this stuff.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of
excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

Of course not. You don't have a grounding problem. You have a problem with the neutral.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible
to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I
can't figure out another common-mode cause...

I can. It's the neutral.

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...

Sounds like a good idea. I think you're in over your head.

was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

On 11/03/2015 4:18 PM, wrote:
....

You still on an earth return system with no neutral??? ...

No, I don't believe there's any where in the US with that any more, even
in the most remote western areas.

Only place I've seen it is in Saskatchewan out west of Weyburn towards
Coronach and that area out there but even that's been 25 yr ago now when
was still doing the coal analyzers service for SaskPower at Poplar River
and Coronach Stations.

Weyburn's the only place I've seen the old 32V DC appliances still on
showroom floors for the places that still had only their windcharger
systems in like 60+ yr, too...we had one until REA got here in '48, but
by '50 or '51 all our corner of SW KS was reached and the windchargers
were quickly abandoned...

--

On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 19:36:44 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/03/2015 4:18 PM, wrote:
...

You still on an earth return system with no neutral??? ...

No, I don't believe there's any where in the US with that any more, even
in the most remote western areas.

Actually there was (at least in the late seventies) in some of the
really outback of Kansas and or oklahoma where there were still power
co-ops. - and one area of Alaska. I remember seeing the single
transmission lines on some really back back roads on my way to Tulsa
in '76.



Only place I've seen it is in Saskatchewan out west of Weyburn towards
Coronach and that area out there but even that's been 25 yr ago now when
was still doing the coal analyzers service for SaskPower at Poplar River
and Coronach Stations.

Weyburn's the only place I've seen the old 32V DC appliances still on
showroom floors for the places that still had only their windcharger
systems in like 60+ yr, too...we had one until REA got here in '48, but
by '50 or '51 all our corner of SW KS was reached and the windchargers
were quickly abandoned...

On 11/03/2015 8:18 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 19:36:44 -0600, wrote:

On 11/03/2015 4:18 PM, wrote:
...

You still on an earth return system with no neutral??? ...

No, I don't believe there's any where in the US with that any more, even
in the most remote western areas.

Actually there was (at least in the late seventies) in some of the
really outback of Kansas and or oklahoma where there were still power
co-ops. - and one area of Alaska. I remember seeing the single
transmission lines on some really back back roads on my way to Tulsa
in '76.

Oh, there are power co-ops all over--we're still a power co-op
here...there are 19 in the State of KS alone covering the whole state
outside the metro areas.

I really don't think there are any single line distribution any longer,
though, altho I suppose it's possible, but I don't recall seeing any in
the last 50 year in the states.

--

On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 09:38:55 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/03/2015 9:21 AM, dpb wrote:
...

Don't see how there's not a complete circuit here.

Oh, actually, it dawns...the neutral is the carrier cable from the pole
overhead over the driveway from the meter...they're all three tied at
that connection up there; the return from the panel, the ground and the
carrier/neutral REA strung.

That connection back to their neutral may be the culprit or I suppose
it's possible the neutral connection at the junction box past the meter
could be it altho that's the same box that splits off the house and
other shop that we were in to isolate the aforementioned underground
feed and those connections all looked pristine -- amazed me how
clean/bright/shiny they were after at least 30 year (I _think_ Dad
pulled new from there to the house/shop when they redid the grandparents
house in the mid-70s altho that was in the time period was in TN so
wasn't around). I think the feed to the barn/feedlots (a second run
from the same pole to another branch box for the silo unloader and the
feedlot waterers, lights, etc.) was run earlier in the very early 60s
when put in the feed mill in the back of the barn and built the lots.
Don't believe there's any chance those were re-run when the house was
but it's also possible they did the house and all when that was done all
in "one swell foop"; I cannot remember for certain even though was still
at home then...

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The
modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch for
a modern barn.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On 11/4/2015 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The
modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch for
a modern barn.


I remember some friends staying at a summer camp, where
the shower was shocking residents. I'm not totally sure
how it played out, but I think the problem was a furnace
that ran for cold mornings, and a bad neutral.

I also remember joking with the staff. Difference between
if it had been boys or girls shower. Girls would learn not
to touch the shocker, and promptly report it for repair.
Boys would crowd around and see how many could get shocked
at the same time.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 11/4/2015 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The
modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch for
a modern barn.


I'm a believer in safety. Some extremes do tend to
drive up the price of every thing.

Some common sense is needed, like using an old
style grounded outlet for your cellar freezer,
not a GFCI. Same deal with the sump pump.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 9:59:34 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.


Seems to me your neutral went bad, and you substituted a ground for the neutral instead of fixing the neutral, and it worked for a while, but it isn't the right solution. In fact it covered up the fact that your neutral is broken somewhere. So driving the ground rod delayed fixing the problem.

On 11/04/2015 7:17 AM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 9:59:34 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.


Seems to me your neutral went bad, and you substituted a ground for
the neutral instead of fixing the neutral, and it worked for a while,
but it isn't the right solution. In fact it covered up the fact that
your neutral is broken somewhere. So driving the ground rod delayed
fixing the problem.

Yep...dawned on me (finally!! ) that was precisely what happened...it
just so happened that there was a nick in the ground wire that noticed,
too, independently that got me sidetracked over it plus just hadn't
thought specifically about the fact that the overhead bare support cable
the two feeders are wrapped around also serves as the neutral...

Was windy enough by time got back from town yesterday afternoon didn't
get the lift out to get up there and check those connections; looks like
that may be today as well so it'll have to wait a day or so.
Fortunately, everything that is mandatory is 240V loads...

--

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 06:12:17 -0600, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/4/2015 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock
from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The
modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch
for
a modern barn.


I remember some friends staying at a summer camp, where
the shower was shocking residents. I'm not totally sure
how it played out, but I think the problem was a furnace
that ran for cold mornings, and a bad neutral.

I also remember joking with the staff. Difference between
if it had been boys or girls shower. Girls would learn not
to touch the shocker, and promptly report it for repair.
Boys would crowd around and see how many could get shocked
at the same time.

The neat part is humans don't sense the shocks that
livestock do. We have only two hooves.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

No, very clearly it is *not* the ground. It's the neutral.

Ground and neutral are not the same thing -- and if you don't understand this, you have no
business monkeying around with this stuff.



+1

Mark

On 11/4/2015 8:47 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 06:12:17 -0600, Stormin Mormon
I also remember joking with the staff. Difference between
if it had been boys or girls shower. Girls would learn not
to touch the shocker, and promptly report it for repair.
Boys would crowd around and see how many could get shocked
at the same time.

The neat part is humans don't sense the shocks that
livestock do. We have only two hooves.


Thing is, that in the shower, cows don't
wear hooves or boots. Silly! So, cows would
get shocked in the shower, also.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 11/4/2015 8:46 AM, dpb wrote:
Yep...dawned on me (finally!! ) that was precisely what happened...it
just so happened that there was a nick in the ground wire that noticed,
too, independently that got me sidetracked over it plus just hadn't
thought specifically about the fact that the overhead bare support cable
the two feeders are wrapped around also serves as the neutral...

Was windy enough by time got back from town yesterday afternoon didn't
get the lift out to get up there and check those connections; looks like
that may be today as well so it'll have to wait a day or so.
Fortunately, everything that is mandatory is 240V loads...


Sometimes, all it takes is to go ask someone
else. The process of explaining the problem
really clears up the old brain cells.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 11/04/2015 5:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
....

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch for
a modern barn.

Can happen (and does, of course) but so far not been an issue here...

A newer, larger operation, particularly dairy is indeed a
capital-intensive proposition. We run a stocker/feeder operation with a
small (400 head max) feedlot capability depending on the year market
outlook and availability of feed, grain, etc., while primarily a dryland
farming operation. With the high input cost of calves and the drought
we've experienced the last several years haven't had any winter wheat
sufficiently far along to pasture and hence no cattle...

--

On 11/03/2015 3:19 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2015 13:48:11 -0600, wrote:


Quite similar with a total of five here; I left of a couple of others to
the other group of sheds and the machine shed (this is a operating
farmstead, not just a few acres outside town).

This is a farm too. Most of the people on this newsgroup live in cities
and are not familiar with this "typical" farm setup, with a meter pole
being the source to feed all the buildings.

One of the "sheds" I referred to, is a second barn, but a small one,
just to house some livestock when needed. It's near the garage. To
eliminate another MAIN panel, I just ran two strands of 12-2 w gnd UF
cable underground from the garage to that barn. It's only for lights and
an occasional power tool or stock tank heater in winter, so those two
20A circuits suffice. I ran those cables thru underground plastic PVC
conduit in case I ever need to add another circuit. I was told there
should be a disconnect in that barn, but the garage panel is only 25
feet away. And since i now changed the six lightbulbs to LED, there is
hardly any power used in that barn.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me...and think, if you at some point build
a connecting breezeway, it's all same building anyway...

I'd like to bury a bunch of the overhead feeds scattered around
particularly the house area but at my age doubt I'll ever get the
necessary round tuit required...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...

OK, I've had a continuing hassle develop w/ the ground in the old barn
over the last year or so.

Finally, about two months ago I replaced the ground rod w/ new and all
seemed well. As of about a week ago, the gremlin is back--there's
enough to light a couple 100W bulbs at not quite full intensity and
outlets measure full 125V but not enough current to power motors, etc.
Clearly it's the ground as all the 240V gear is fully functional.

It's _extremely_ hard to fathom a new rod can have gone south so quickly
and we've had sufficient rain that it certainly is the case of
excessively dry ground.

Yesterday I ran a jumper directly from the ground bar in the circuit box
to the ground and made no difference whatsoever in the symptoms.

It is _all_ 120V circuits, not just one so seems as though not possible
to be a failed breaker not passing current; but for the life of me I
can't figure out another common-mode cause...

Anybody got any ideas or ever had such a symptom? I may end up calling
the pro on this one...was out just last week to help find a broken
underground feeder to another of the outbuildings; too bad the symptom
hadn't reared it's head again then or woulda' had him take a look then.

--
Reading posting you have being giving many Ideas,
However you should have done very first thing check potential
(voltage)between
neutral and ground it should read Zero anything other there is problem in
wiring.
I can not tell what look for but that you make sure is going to ground and
neutral is going to neutral remember that ground lead should not carry any
current,
in any situation, ground can be copper coated rod stick min. 3 feet in
ground,
or run wire from you distribution electrical box that is grounded there.

On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 05:55:37 -0600, "Dean Hoffman"
wrote:

I've read of livestock not drinking because they get shocked from
the waterers. Dairy cows have supposedly held milk due to the shock from
the milkers. Both of those were from bad or inadequate neutrals. The
modern
code has all sort of neat stuff to prevent that. It must cost a bunch for
a modern barn.

What you said is a fact. Just google for "Stray Voltage". My power
company checked for this (at no cost to me), because I had a horse quit
drinking water, who became ill due to it. Fortunately I caught this in
time, and he guzzled a 5 gallon pail of water when I carried it out to
him, even though there was a filled 100 gal. stock tank in there.

It was winter, there was a stock tank heater in that tank which was
plugged into a GFCI outlet. The GFCI (should) have tripped, but didn't.
I took a multimeter and tested between the tank and a metal fence post,
and saw a very slight voltage. I then touched the tank and felt a very
slight "tickle". That's when I called the power company. They have
special meters for testing, and said they saw a voltage at that tank,
but got no stray voltage readings anywhere else on the farm.

I replaced the tank heater with a brand new one, and STILL had that
slight voltage at the tank. This even puzzled the guys from the power
company, who said that I must have a defective *NEW* heater too. I had
one more NEW heater on hand. I installed that one and still nothing
changed. I got an extension cord and plugged that heater into another
outlet. Problem GONE!

The power company said they can not work on "MY" electrical system and
said to call an electrician. After they left, I carefully checked that
entire circuit and everything was tight, the box had a good ground and
so on. That's when I found the reset button on that GFCI would not trip.
I replaced that GFCI and everything was fixed. Somehow, that defective
GFCI was actually causing the voltage leakage.

---

Another incident was when I had a neighbor feed my livestock when I was
away for a weekend. The guy left a garden hose in a stock tank, which
was touching an electric fence. The animals quit drinking and I could
see they were not doing well during hot weather. I quickly found they
drank from a 5 gal. pail. The hose was a black rubber, and somehow it
conducts electricity, because I touched it and felt a tingle.

The problem is when animals get shocked by their water, it takes weeks
for them to trust that water tank again. They dont forget! The solution
is to get a different looking tank (color, shape, size, etc). and MOVE
IT to a different location. Even then, I've watched them be very
suspicions and just sort of touch the water ever so slightly, before
actually drinking it. Once they find it "safe" they are ok with it. In
this incident, I eventually replaced that original tank in the original
location (after a few months), and they were fine with it.

* I told that neighbor to NEVER leave a hose laying in a stock tank and
never allow a hose to touch the electric fence.
Besides that, if a hose is left in a stock tank, it will siphon all the
water out of the tank.

On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 3:59:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:


The problem is when animals get shocked by their water, it takes weeks
for them to trust that water tank again. They dont forget! The solution
is to get a different looking tank (color, shape, size, etc). and MOVE
IT to a different location. Even then, I've watched them be very
suspicions and just sort of touch the water ever so slightly, before
actually drinking it. Once they find it "safe" they are ok with it. In
this incident, I eventually replaced that original tank in the original
location (after a few months), and they were fine with it.

You can lead a horse to water....zzzaaaaappppp!