We're out here in flyover country where the snows
are deep and cold, and getting real, real, tired
of shoveling out the driveway and clearing the sidewalk.

Even with a contractor handling it, that often means
waiting a day or so because of their other work.

So... we'll be needing some concrete work on the
driveway in a few years, and I was looking into
tapping off our home heating boiler (baseboard,
hot water circulating) and running some loops
in the concrete.

It would add between five hundred and a thousand
to the basic concrete work, and cost, perhaps,
ten dollars for the extra natural gas each time
we'd use it.

It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, ech winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausable.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Thanks.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 04/20/2015 11:31 AM, danny burstein wrote:
We're out here in flyover country where the snows
are deep and cold, and getting real, real, tired
of shoveling out the driveway and clearing the sidewalk.

Even with a contractor handling it, that often means
waiting a day or so because of their other work.

So... we'll be needing some concrete work on the
driveway in a few years, and I was looking into
tapping off our home heating boiler (baseboard,
hot water circulating) and running some loops
in the concrete.

It would add between five hundred and a thousand
to the basic concrete work, and cost, perhaps,
ten dollars for the extra natural gas each time
we'd use it.

It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, ech winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausable.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Thanks.






Way back when energy was cheap, the Gas company here in town had heated
sidewalks and it worked well.

I think that it would cost a lot more than you think it would because if
the Gas company here can no longer afford to do so it's got to be expensive.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 12:31:22 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
We're out here in flyover country where the snows
are deep and cold, and getting real, real, tired
of shoveling out the driveway and clearing the sidewalk.

Even with a contractor handling it, that often means
waiting a day or so because of their other work.

So... we'll be needing some concrete work on the
driveway in a few years, and I was looking into
tapping off our home heating boiler (baseboard,
hot water circulating) and running some loops
in the concrete.

It would add between five hundred and a thousand
to the basic concrete work, and cost, perhaps,
ten dollars for the extra natural gas each time
we'd use it.

It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, ech winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausable.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Thanks.


The $500 to $1000 additional cost sounds low to me.
Not only do you have the piping that has to go in
the concrete, but you have plumbing back to the boiler,
controller of some kind, etc.

The $10 cost for the energy to melt deep snow in a
cold place, also sounds low to me, even if it's nat gas.
Where did that number come from? I don't have experience
using such a system, but I would think it would typically
go on as snow begins to fall and it would have to keep
the driveway above freezing for the duration. That would
be a big concern, what it costs to run it when it's
needed.

Also, can the existing boiler handle the increased load?
Typically systems are sized to the house, with some
reserve, based on the coldest days. If you then add in
a whole new load, temps in the house may suffer, but
maybe that's OK. Like if the system runs at night mostly.

I guess it could work out and be worth it. But I just
use a $750 snow blower that's 20 years old. I do a 75 ft
driveway plus larger parking apron typically in 15 mins
for a snow of 5". If it's a big one, over a foot, probably
takes 30 mins or so. If I could clear that with hydronic
for $10 or $20, each time, it would be worth it on an
operating cost basis. But then I have a furnace.....

On 4/20/2015 12:31 PM, danny burstein wrote:

So... we'll be needing some concrete work on the
driveway in a few years, and I was looking into
tapping off our home heating boiler (baseboard,
hot water circulating) and running some loops
in the concrete.

It would add between five hundred and a thousand
to the basic concrete work, and cost, perhaps,
ten dollars for the extra natural gas each time
we'd use it.

It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, each winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausible.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Thanks.



Our local post office has a concrete ramp entrance done. I think it is
electric though. It does an excellent job of keeping it clear
especially since we've had over 8' of snow this year.

If you can operate it for less than $20 a snowfall, I'd say it is a good
deal to save a lot of labor, either yours or a contractor.

In trader_4 writes:

The $500 to $1000 additional cost sounds low to me.
Not only do you have the piping that has to go in
the concrete, but you have plumbing back to the boiler,
controller of some kind, etc.

It's only a 20 foot run from the edge of the driveway
to the boiler, and then figure 150 or so feet of
coiled, err, whatever the flexible pipe is made of.

Actually make it a couple of smaller loops, but same concept.

The $10 cost for the energy to melt deep snow in a
cold place, also sounds low to me, even if it's nat gas.
Where did that number come from? I don't have experience
using such a system, but I would think it would typically
go on as snow begins to fall and it would have to keep
the driveway above freezing for the duration. That would
be a big concern, what it costs to run it when it's
needed.

I'm basing it on the amount of hot water I used one day
when I _had to_ clear the driveway and shoveling wasn't
an option. Used up the tank and had to wait for the
water to reheat a bunch of times... but all in all
it was about two hours. Water heater is something
like 20,000 BTU/hr, so give or take a therm, ala
a hundred cubic feet (more or less), which was
umm, one or two dollars.

So I figure ten dollars of heat into the concrete
should be a reasnoable back of envelope number.

(yes, some goes into the ground, etc., etc.)

Also, can the existing boiler handle the increased load?
Typically systems are sized to the house, with some
reserve, based on the coldest days. If you then add in
a whole new load, temps in the house may suffer, but
maybe that's OK. Like if the system runs at night mostly.

System is spec'ed for, yes, a hundred degree differential
between outdoor (it gets way subzero here) and indoor.

We retrofitted a higher efficiency, modulated controlled
boiler five years ago. It typically runs at 25 percent
(apparently its lowest setting) with a 30 or so percent
duty cycle. Only time it's hit near 100 percent is
when we've been gone and let the ouse drop to 50 degrees..

for $10 or $20, each time, it would be worth it on an
operating cost basis. But then I have a furnace.....

Alas, Father Time has gotten to us...


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In trader_4 writes:

The $500 to $1000 additional cost sounds low to me.
Not only do you have the piping that has to go in
the concrete, but you have plumbing back to the boiler,
controller of some kind, etc.

It's only a 20 foot run from the edge of the driveway
to the boiler, and then figure 150 or so feet of
coiled, err, whatever the flexible pipe is made of.

Actually make it a couple of smaller loops, but same concept.

What is the area of the driveway?



.. I'm basing it on the amount of hot water I used one day
when I _had to_ clear the driveway and shoveling wasn't
an option. Used up the tank and had to wait for the
water to reheat a bunch of times... but all in all
it was about two hours. Water heater is something
like 20,000 BTU/hr, so give or take a therm, ala
a hundred cubic feet (more or less), which was
umm, one or two dollars.

So I figure ten dollars of heat into the concrete
should be a reasnoable back of envelope number.

I would think there must be some resource online from
the companies that sell this stuff that would give you
a better estimate. But I take it from the above that
the driveway area is also small.

Sounds like it could be a viable option.

On 4/20/2015 12:31 PM, danny burstein wrote:
We're out here in flyover country where the snows
are deep and cold, and getting real, real, tired
of shoveling out the driveway and clearing the sidewalk.

Even with a contractor handling it, that often means
waiting a day or so because of their other work.

So... we'll be needing some concrete work on the
driveway in a few years, and I was looking into
tapping off our home heating boiler (baseboard,
hot water circulating) and running some loops
in the concrete.

It would add between five hundred and a thousand
to the basic concrete work, and cost, perhaps,
ten dollars for the extra natural gas each time
we'd use it.

It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, ech winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausable.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Thanks.


Many years ago, I heard that the Rochester, NY
bus garage, maybe they call it RGRTA, can't
remember, put in parking lot heaters. They found
it cheaper and easier than plowing and snow moval.

I don't have any real data, your google fu might
be far better than mine.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 4/20/2015 12:31 PM, danny burstein wrote:


It would also mean changing/adding an antifreeze mix
to the boiler loop, which might reduce efficiency
a notch (there's lots of argument...) and thus
cost us another hundred, maybe, ech winter. Maybe.

So it's economically plausable.

Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

Where does all the water go after the snow melts?
Will you wind up with a big ice dam along the edge of your driveway?

Per danny burstein:
Anyone have experience, thoughts, cautions,
or even "you're absolutely crazy" warnings?

No experience... but I would have to think about where the melted runoff
would go.

Slope: no problem, I would think...

Dead Flat: I'd worry about pooling and freezing - especially after
repeated snowfalls with no thaws between.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 4/20/2015 1:27 PM, danny burstein wrote:

for $10 or $20, each time, it would be worth it on an
operating cost basis. But then I have a furnace.....

Alas, Father Time has gotten to us...



On the edge of my old failing memory, I think
at the bus garage with the heated parking lot,
the snow would turn to vapor, and so melt and
run off wasn't an issue.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.
At 15 cents per kWh thats, about 5 cents of electricity per gallon of water melted. If you want it done in 1 hour, you need 350 Watts per gallon.


It takes at least 8000 BTU to evaporate 1 gallon of water to vapor.
At 15 cents per kWh thats about 36 cents of electricity per gallon of water evaporated.

If you want it done in 1 hour, you need about 2300 Watts per gallon.

How many gallons of water do you suppose we are talking about on a typical driveway? It takes a lot more energy (about 7x) to evaporate the water than it does to melt the ice.


Mark

It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.

Does snow melt quicker than a block of ice?

I would tend to think so since it's mostly air space. Just like a bag of
crushed ice melts faster than a solid block of ice. Increased surface area.

Also, since it takes roughly 10 inches of snow to equal 1 inch of water
(melted down), it seems like the run off would be minimal. Certainly no
more than a typical rain shower.

Ideally, the driveway heating would be turned on when the snow starts so it
never has a chance to build up in the first place. It would melt as soon as
it hit the driveway.

Of course, even if you manage to keep your driveway completely clear,
you'll still have snow out on the street. Even if the street is plowed,
they're probably not going to clear the road right up to your driveway.

I live in a rural area and the snow plow usually creates a large berm of
snow right at the top of our driveway. Some winters that berm has been as
high as four feet. Even if my driveway was clear I would have to dig my way
through the snow berm.

The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows. Take a
day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not an option for
most people.

Otherwise, a snowblower has worked best for me. I started with a small
electric model which worked great for the sidewalks and areas around the
house. But I had to get a gas powered snow blower for my 200ft driveway and
that berm at the top.

Thanks to a changing climate, we haven't had a significant snow fall in the
last few years. I never even used the snow blower this winter.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:48:40 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.

Does snow melt quicker than a block of ice?

I would tend to think so since it's mostly air space. Just like a bag of
crushed ice melts faster than a solid block of ice. Increased surface area.

Also, since it takes roughly 10 inches of snow to equal 1 inch of water
(melted down), it seems like the run off would be minimal. Certainly no
more than a typical rain shower.


That't the important issue, that 1 gallon of water will make a lot
of snow. Also, somehow Mark segued into using costs for electric.
OP has a boiler, IDK if it's gas or oil, but either would be
significantly less to operate.

| It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.
| It takes at least 8000 BTU to evaporate 1 gallon of water to vapor.

Interesting statistics, but how relevant are they?
I assume those figures are for ice at a bit under 32F
with little wasted energy. With a heated driveway,
wouldn't most of the heat go toward "heating the
whole outdoors"? That's not the same as cooking a
block of ice in a pan. And of course snow is not ice,
either. Wouldn't the difference also be significant between
melting snow in -5F vs 31F air temperature? And how
hot would it need to be in a blizzard, with 2-3"/hour
falling? Also, "flyover country" could be anything but
the east or west coast.

If it were me I think I'd get some estimates and then
plan on a significantly higher figure. There's no sense
doing all the work if it turns out too expensive to use.
Especially for a luxury that's so notably unnecessary
in the first place.

I also wonder about possible problems like frost heaves.
If the heat is only on during snowstorms then what's to
prevent a frost heave cracking the concrete and breaking
the whole works?

On 4/21/2015 10:47 AM, HerHusband wrote:
It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.




Of course, even if you manage to keep your driveway completely clear,
you'll still have snow out on the street. Even if the street is plowed,
they're probably not going to clear the road right up to your driveway.

This is true.





The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows. Take a
day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not an option for
most people.

How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does it
just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for about
three months waiting for it to melt.

| The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows. Take
a
| day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not an option
for
| most people.
|
| How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does it
| just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for about
| three months waiting for it to melt.
|

I'm surprised how many people here seem to
find it unreasonable to consider shoveling snow.
Does everyone havea bad back? I kind of enjoy it.
It's good exercise. If you get 12" you're probably
not going anywhere, anyway. So why not get
out and shovel?

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 12:27:58 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows. Take
a
| day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not an option
for
| most people.
|
| How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does it
| just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for about
| three months waiting for it to melt.
|

I'm surprised how many people here seem to
find it unreasonable to consider shoveling snow.
Does everyone havea bad back? I kind of enjoy it.
It's good exercise. If you get 12" you're probably
not going anywhere, anyway. So why not get
out and shovel?

No joy here to do 75ft of driveway, plus wider area in front
of 2 car garage..... And if you're out of shape, which
many of us are, it's a good way to have a heart attack.
OP apparently is in the Midwest where cold and lots of snow
are common too.

On 4/21/2015 11:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:48:40 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:
It takes at least 1200 BTU to melt ice to 1 gallon of water.

Does snow melt quicker than a block of ice?

I would tend to think so since it's mostly air space. Just like a bag of
crushed ice melts faster than a solid block of ice. Increased surface area.

Also, since it takes roughly 10 inches of snow to equal 1 inch of water
(melted down), it seems like the run off would be minimal. Certainly no
more than a typical rain shower.


That's the important issue, that 1 gallon of water will make a lot
of snow. Also, somehow Mark segued into using costs for electric.
OP has a boiler, IDK if it's gas or oil, but either would be
significantly less to operate.


A cubic foot of snow can range from 5# to 25#. You can roughly figure a
6" snow is a half gallon per square foot. 600 Btu per sq. ft. A 35' x
9' driveway would need a minimum of 189,000 Btu 138.000 Btu per gallon
of oil.

Add to that, the loses to the ground and the time getting the thermal
mass up to temperature. The lower the ambient, the more energy needed.

On 4/21/2015 11:23 AM, Mayayana wrote:

If it were me I think I'd get some estimates and then
plan on a significantly higher figure. There's no sense
doing all the work if it turns out too expensive to use.
Especially for a luxury that's so notably unnecessary
in the first place.

I also wonder about possible problems like frost heaves.
If the heat is only on during snowstorms then what's to
prevent a frost heave cracking the concrete and breaking
the whole works?



If you really want to do the job right, you'd put a couple of inches of
foam board under the concrete. Otherwise, yes, you are trying to heat
the entire earth. Foam is used on some highways in Europe and is
becoming popular in garages here. I don't know, nor am I inclined to
search for, the specifics of the construction.

Since the heat loss is both up and down, the cost could easily be double
the BTU needed to melt the snow.

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 1:46:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/21/2015 11:23 AM, Mayayana wrote:

If it were me I think I'd get some estimates and then
plan on a significantly higher figure. There's no sense
doing all the work if it turns out too expensive to use.
Especially for a luxury that's so notably unnecessary
in the first place.

I also wonder about possible problems like frost heaves.
If the heat is only on during snowstorms then what's to
prevent a frost heave cracking the concrete and breaking
the whole works?



If you really want to do the job right, you'd put a couple of inches of
foam board under the concrete. Otherwise, yes, you are trying to heat
the entire earth. Foam is used on some highways in Europe and is
becoming popular in garages here. I don't know, nor am I inclined to
search for, the specifics of the construction.

Since the heat loss is both up and down, the cost could easily be double
the BTU needed to melt the snow.

+1

Putting some insulation under it sounds like a cost effective idea.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

If you really want to do the job right, you'd put a couple of inches of
foam board under the concrete. Otherwise, yes, you are trying to heat
the entire earth. Foam is used on some highways in Europe and is
becoming popular in garages here. I don't know, nor am I inclined to
search for, the specifics of the construction.

Well, it interests me enough to look. At one of the northern universities I
recall them designing the steam tunnel piping to run under all the sidewalks
and it worked out very efficiently. Since the steam was being piped to all
campus buildings anyway, it made perfect sense to use some of that heat to
melt snow.

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer.

http://www.homeadvisor.com/article.s...way.11202.html

talks about home-based systems.

Heated Driveway Costs
Typically, the cost of a heated driveway system is between $12-$21 per
square foot. Looking at our data, the average cost of a radiant heating
system installation is $3,892, with a low of $1,300 and a high of $7,500 in
that range. However, this price does not include the removal of the old
driveway or the cost of the new one. Unfortunately, our data doesn't show
the cost to remove the old driveway, but we do show the average asphalt
paving cost ($4,457) and concrete driveway cost ($3,650). The range of
asphalt driveway projects is much greater at $2,000-$25,000 than concrete at
$650-$7,091.

http://www.angieslist.com/articles/a...worth-cost.htm

says:
Actual Experience
Permalink Submitted by Frugal Rich Guy on Thu, 2013-04-18 08:46
I've had one for 20 years. It cost about $5k, because I needed to replace
the driveway anyway. I still have to use the snowblower, because I still
have to dig out the big pile at the end of the driveway thrown up by the
plows. So I remove the bulk of the snow all over the driveway with the
snowblower and then use the heat to melt what's left down to bare pavement.
Pretty much how others use salt. Costs about $10 per storm.

http://www.concretenetwork.com/concr...tems/costs.htm

says:
Costs to Install and Operate Snow Melting Systems - The costs to operate
snow melting systems vary widely depending on the size of the area being
treated, local utility costs, the average total hours of snowfall, and how
fast the system user wants to melt the snow. Obviously, the larger the area
being heated and the more snow there is, the higher the operating cost.
Also, a system used in a colder climate may require a higher wattage (for
electric) or more Btu (for hydronic) than a similar system used in a warmer
climate.

Watts Heatway, a supplier of hydronic systems, says annual operating costs
range from 12 to 25 cents per square foot. So on average, it would cost $120
to $250 each winter to melt snow off a 1,000-square-foot driveway.

Depending on local utility rates, electric systems may cost even more to
operate. EasyHeat, a supplier of electric mats for snow melting
applications, says that the seasonal cost to heat a 1,000-square-foot slab
at 50 kilowatts will run about $276 in areas of light snowfall (50 inches
per year or less) and $692 in areas with average snowfall (50 to 100
inches). Those estimates are based on an average kilowatt cost per hour of
6.92¢.

Material and installation costs vary widely too. For Warm Floor Centers
electric system, the materials alone run $4 to $6 per square foot, according
to Blackburn. Lee Hydronics system runs about $5 to $10 per square foot
installed. "The biggest variable is how far the embedded tubing is located
from the power source," claims Bailey. The farther away the utilities are,
the higher the installation and operating costs.


--
Bobby G.

On 4/21/2015 12:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/21/2015 10:47 AM, HerHusband wrote:
Of course, even if you manage to keep your driveway completely clear,
you'll still have snow out on the street. Even if the street is plowed,
they're probably not going to clear the road right up to your driveway.

This is true.


All the snow from the street will be plowed
into the end of your driveway?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

| So I remove the bulk of the snow all over the driveway with the
| snowblower and then use the heat to melt what's left down to bare
pavement.
| Pretty much how others use salt.

That sounds a lot like Granny Clampett's
amazing cold cu Take a spoonful twice
a day, drink plenty of fluids, get lots of rest,
and your cold will be gone in 7-10 days.

I find it's very rare to need salt. Mostly
only near the front door when there's drippng
and refreezing. The driveway residue pretty
much evaporates away in a couple of days.

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer.


conducted heat does not rise

hot air rises.

Mark

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 4:03:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer.


conducted heat does not rise

hot air rises.

Mark

also if you don't care about the cost of the energy,
just spray the snow with hot water from a hose and save a ton
of installation costs.

Instead of scraping ice off my car windshield, I take a gallon or two of WARM water (not hot or else you may crack the window) and pour it on the window.

Works pretty well and is worth the cost IMO.

Mark



Mark

No installation costs.

I service machines over a wide area near pittsburgh. One day I saw them exeecavating for a home on a big hill. the driveway was steep. seeing this I wondered what the homeowner would do........ the driveway was gravel, and thats hard to shovel.

the next summer I went by and they were execavating the drive way. ended up back in that area frequently...

they dug it out, then added some sort of foam insulation. PEX loops/

back in area the next day the concrete truck was doing its job.

i went back several times, it had snowed. no snow on that driveway

that spring I saw the family fixing up their yard so i stopped and asked how theheatd driveway was doing.

they loved it and said energy costs werent too bad since it just had to be warmer than freezing.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:gIudnSub6_nfFKvInZ2dnUU7-
:

A cubic foot of snow can range from 5# to 25#.

Wrongo again! It's more like 4# to 45#. I'm glad you haven't designed any
public bridges.

Mayayana wrote:

i think it's a huge waste of energy and
resources... but some people have to have the
drive clear each time it snows. we're lucky that
neither of us has that issue. when it snows hard
here we wait it out and then shovel when we can
get to it.

one major problem i see is that heating the
slab wastes a lot of energy into the ground so
it would have to be very well insulated and
engineered not to crack and as of yet i've not
seen any concrete drive that doesn't eventually
crack. one big truck driving on it and away
it goes.

can't see such a major expense being worth it.
for the money, hire someone or get a decent snow
blower (some have heated cabs, radios, etc.).


....
I'm surprised how many people here seem to
find it unreasonable to consider shoveling snow.
Does everyone havea bad back? I kind of enjoy it.
It's good exercise. If you get 12" you're probably
not going anywhere, anyway. So why not get
out and shovel?

yeah, fresh air, good exercise, etc.

usually we shovel all winter when it does snow.
this past winter was rather wimpy, we had only one
time that it was bad and it just happened that both
of us were sick. so we called someone to plow for
us. i did go out and try to shovel it a few times
but after about 20 minutes i was done.

in previous years i've shoveled a few feet of
snow, just take it in shifts and don't worry about
taking a break.

with both of us in relatively decent condition we
both like to shovel, but i can see how some folks
would have a tough time of it.

my experiences with those few who've put in the
heated walks is that they are ok until they get the
fuel bill. after that they turn them off.

problems with settling, cracking, wasted energy,
etc.

a good snow blower will take care of it with much
less expense. finding neighborhood kids willing to
make a few $ or handymen with extra time. if i were
in the city i'd be out looking for places to shovel
myself. digging is one of the best exercises for my
back...


songbird

On 4/21/2015 12:31 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows. Take
a
| day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not an option
for
| most people.
|
| How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does it
| just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for about
| three months waiting for it to melt.
|

I'm surprised how many people here seem to
find it unreasonable to consider shoveling snow.
Does everyone havea bad back? I kind of enjoy it.
It's good exercise. If you get 12" you're probably
not going anywhere, anyway. So why not get
out and shovel?

I used to shovel, now I use a machine to blow it. I understand what you
are saying about shoveling, but many of us, as we get older, find it
more difficult every year. Good exercise at 50 is much less fun at 65
or 70 or more.

On 4/21/2015 2:24 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

If you really want to do the job right, you'd put a couple of inches of
foam board under the concrete.


FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer.

Hot air is less dense than cold air so it rises. Heat (energy) travels
in every direction where there is less heat seeking equilibrium.
Foam will make a huge difference. The frost line here is 48" so that
means enough heat is lost for it to freeze. The ground will try to
absorb enough heat to replace that loss. That can be very expensive.

On 4/21/2015 3:19 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/21/2015 12:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/21/2015 10:47 AM, HerHusband wrote:
Of course, even if you manage to keep your driveway completely clear,
you'll still have snow out on the street. Even if the street is plowed,
they're probably not going to clear the road right up to your driveway.

This is true.


All the snow from the street will be plowed
into the end of your driveway?


Not all, just half. The other half goes to the other side. The plow
comes to within about 18" of the curb tossing snow onto my property as
it goes.

On 4/21/2015 8:31 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


The plow comes to within about 18" of the curb tossing snow onto my property as
it goes.

This year the snow plow went past the curb, taking out my mailbox and post.
The new post has been installed 4' back from the curb and the mailbox is on a 4' arm.

On 4/21/2015 9:21 PM, Auric Goldfinger wrote:

This year the snow plow went past the curb, taking out my mailbox and post.
The new post has been installed 4' back from the curb and the mailbox is
on a 4' arm.


I'd have been tempted to build a much stronger
mail box post, battleship armor or some thing.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows.
Take a day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not
an option for most people.

How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does
it just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for
about three months waiting for it to melt.

As I mentioned, that's not an option for most people.

Around here a snow storm is a fairly rare event. Any snow that falls seldom
lasts more than a few days before melting off. Why go through all the work
of clearing a driveway, then risk getting in an accident. If you're in a
position to take those few days off work, it's always the smarter choice.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

I'm surprised how many people here seem to find it unreasonable
to consider shoveling snow. Does everyone have a bad back? I
kind of enjoy it. It's good exercise. If you get 12" you're
probably not going anywhere, anyway. So why not get out and shovel?

I used to enjoy it when I was in my 30's, but it sure seems like a lot more
work now that I'm in my 50's.

20 years ago I always shoveled our 200 foot driveway by hand. With 8" or
more of snow it would typically take about four hours to clear the driveway
and get the cars ready to go. Obviously, that's not something you do before
heading to work. It was reserved for those times when we had to run to town
to get groceries or other supplies.

Even with my gas powered snow blower it can take 30-45 minutes to clear our
driveway.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

All the snow from the street will be plowed
into the end of your driveway?

Our driveway meets the main road on an outside curve. So the snow berm
tends to be a bit taller as the snow plow comes around the corner. Worse
yet, it becomes a big block of packed ice instead of light fluffy snow.
I've broken snow shovels trying to bust my way through that berm.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:23:18 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/21/2015 9:21 PM, Auric Goldfinger wrote:

This year the snow plow went past the curb, taking out my mailbox and post.
The new post has been installed 4' back from the curb and the mailbox is
on a 4' arm.


I'd have been tempted to build a much stronger
mail box post, battleship armor or some thing.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

I used a heavy steel I beam buried5 feet below groundlevel. I got tired of replacing mailboxes

On 04/22/2015 12:33 AM, bob haller wrote:

.
.

I used a heavy steel I beam buried5 feet below groundlevel. I got tired of replacing mailboxes


A local guy buried a 12" dia 3/8" wall steel pipe filled with concrete 5' deep and mounted his mailbox on top.
Worked great till the county plow truck hit it.

Long story short, the county won a $25k judgment against him for damages to the truck...and I don't think his homeowners insurance paid.

wrote in message

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become
warmer.

conducted heat does not rise hot air rises.

You're making a pretty big assumption that this would all be conducted heat.
It's not. Are you familiar with the thermal properties of soil and why it's
been used as an insulator in rammed earth homes and other types of
construction? It's because soil does NOT behave thermally like a liquid or
a metal, it's actually fine grains of material surrounded by millions of
tiny *air* pockets.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/th...ity-d_429.html

Compare the thermal conductivity of soil to some other materials and you'll
see it's more insulator than conductor

Thermal Conductivity
- k -
W/(m K)

Glass, wool Insulation 0.04
Glycerol 0.28
Gold 310
Granite 1.7 - 4.0
Gravel 0.7
Ground or soil, very moist area 1.4
Ground or soil, moist area 1.0
Ground or soil, dry area 0.5
Ground or soil, very dry area 0.33
Gypsum board 0.17
Silver 429
Tin Sn 67
Titanium 22
Tungsten 174

That's even before we consider thermal equilibrium and which direction heat
would move in if the ground below was warmer than the surface of the
driveway, which it almost always is.

It is observed that a higher temperature object which is in
contact with a lower temperature object will transfer heat to the lower
temperature

Source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mo/thereq.html

--
Bobby G.

On 4/22/2015 5:15 AM, Mayhem wrote:
A local guy buried a 12" dia 3/8" wall steel pipe filled with concrete
5' deep and mounted his mailbox on top.
Worked great till the county plow truck hit it.

Long story short, the county won a $25k judgment against him for damages
to the truck...and I don't think his homeowners insurance paid.

So, the plow guy hits the mail box, and it's the
HO's liability? On what planet?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..