HerHusband wrote:
....
Our driveway meets the main road on an outside curve. So the snow berm
tends to be a bit taller as the snow plow comes around the corner. Worse
yet, it becomes a big block of packed ice instead of light fluffy snow.
I've broken snow shovels trying to bust my way through that berm.

if i don't have to get out for any reason i'll
leave the last few feet of the drive alone until
they finally plow the second or third time. this
way they won't push so much snow into the end of
the driveway. (i.e. remove the pressure and the
flow will come in, so leave some snow and more
stays out).

for breaking up the frozen piles i have a nice
straight shovel made for trenching that will make
it into chunks to move.

sometimes it seems like they wait until i have
the drive clear before they come along and fill it
back in again... usually right after i get my
clothes changed and get into the middle of
something else.


songbird

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 2:35:46 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

If you really want to do the job right, you'd put a couple of inches of
foam board under the concrete. Otherwise, yes, you are trying to heat
the entire earth. Foam is used on some highways in Europe and is
becoming popular in garages here. I don't know, nor am I inclined to
search for, the specifics of the construction.

Well, it interests me enough to look. At one of the northern universities I
recall them designing the steam tunnel piping to run under all the sidewalks
and it worked out very efficiently. Since the steam was being piped to all
campus buildings anyway, it made perfect sense to use some of that heat to
melt snow.

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become warmer..


Heat doesn't rise, heated *air* rises.



http://www.homeadvisor.com/article.s...way.11202.html

talks about home-based systems.

Heated Driveway Costs
Typically, the cost of a heated driveway system is between $12-$21 per
square foot. Looking at our data, the average cost of a radiant heating
system installation is $3,892, with a low of $1,300 and a high of $7,500 in
that range. However, this price does not include the removal of the old
driveway or the cost of the new one. Unfortunately, our data doesn't show
the cost to remove the old driveway, but we do show the average asphalt
paving cost ($4,457) and concrete driveway cost ($3,650). The range of
asphalt driveway projects is much greater at $2,000-$25,000 than concrete at
$650-$7,091.

http://www.angieslist.com/articles/a...worth-cost.htm

says:
Actual Experience
Permalink Submitted by Frugal Rich Guy on Thu, 2013-04-18 08:46
I've had one for 20 years. It cost about $5k, because I needed to replace
the driveway anyway. I still have to use the snowblower, because I still
have to dig out the big pile at the end of the driveway thrown up by the
plows. So I remove the bulk of the snow all over the driveway with the
snowblower and then use the heat to melt what's left down to bare pavement.

On 4/22/2015 12:15 AM, HerHusband wrote:
The best option is to simply avoid driving anywhere when it snows.
Take a day off, or work from home if you can. Obviously, that's not
an option for most people.

How does that work? If I get 12" of snow and take the day off, does
it just disappear by next morning? This winter, I'd be stuck for
about three months waiting for it to melt.

As I mentioned, that's not an option for most people.

Around here a snow storm is a fairly rare event. Any snow that falls seldom
lasts more than a few days before melting off. Why go through all the work
of clearing a driveway, then risk getting in an accident. If you're in a
position to take those few days off work, it's always the smarter choice.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com


I'm glad it works for you. The snow that fell here in January was still
here in April. We had in the range of 100 inches. That is also a lot
of shoveling or snowblowing. I am in a position to take some time off,
but not three months. Semi-retired, I did stay home on the really bad
days.

I don't mind doing most of the blowing, but if for $200 I could have had
it melt, I'd have paid it.

On 4/22/2015 8:08 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 4/22/2015 5:15 AM, Mayhem wrote:
A local guy buried a 12" dia 3/8" wall steel pipe filled with concrete
5' deep and mounted his mailbox on top.
Worked great till the county plow truck hit it.

Long story short, the county won a $25k judgment against him for damages
to the truck...and I don't think his homeowners insurance paid.

So, the plow guy hits the mail box, and it's the
HO's liability? On what planet?


I've heard stories like that before. Same with kids hitting a mailbox
with baseball bats and getting injured because it was not moveable.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 7:26:34 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become
warmer.

conducted heat does not rise hot air rises.

You're making a pretty big assumption that this would all be conducted heat.
It's not. Are you familiar with the thermal properties of soil and why it's
been used as an insulator in rammed earth homes and other types of
construction? It's because soil does NOT behave thermally like a liquid or
a metal, it's actually fine grains of material surrounded by millions of
tiny *air* pockets.


The issue is not the thermal conductivity of soil, it's whether
heat from water tubes embedded in concrete rises, as you stated.
It doesn't. Hot air rises. The air trapped in soil, unless you
have evidence that it moves, I would doubt that it does.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/th...ity-d_429.html

Compare the thermal conductivity of soil to some other materials and you'll
see it's more insulator than conductor

Thermal Conductivity
- k -
W/(m K)

Glass, wool Insulation 0.04
Glycerol 0.28
Gold 310
Granite 1.7 - 4.0
Gravel 0.7
Ground or soil, very moist area 1.4
Ground or soil, moist area 1.0
Ground or soil, dry area 0.5
Ground or soil, very dry area 0.33
Gypsum board 0.17
Silver 429
Tin Sn 67
Titanium 22
Tungsten 174


Fiberglass insulation is mostly air too. It doesn't transport
heat via convection very much either, because the air is mostly trapped.



That's even before we consider thermal equilibrium and which direction heat
would move in if the ground below was warmer than the surface of the
driveway, which it almost always is.


That might be true, but it depends on a lot of factors. How
about if the sun is shining on the driveway, for example?


It is observed that a higher temperature object which is in
contact with a lower temperature object will transfer heat to the lower
temperature

Source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...mo/thereq.html

--
Bobby G.

Whatever the temp is of the upper concrete versus the soil
under it, the driving force is the temp diff between the hot
water in the pipes and the temp of either.

100F to 20F on top, versus 100F to 30F might be an example.
You have 80 delta versus 70 delta. Not all that much
difference to make the heat go one way versus the other,
from what I see.

On 4/22/2015 6:58 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

FWIW, I really doubt if foam is necessary because heat rises and even
heating the soil below will eventually cause the surface to become
warmer.

conducted heat does not rise hot air rises.

You're making a pretty big assumption that this would all be conducted heat.
It's not. Are you familiar with the thermal properties of soil and why it's
been used as an insulator in rammed earth homes and other types of
construction? It's because soil does NOT behave thermally like a liquid or
a metal, it's actually fine grains of material surrounded by millions of
tiny *air* pockets.




Compare the thermal conductivity of soil to some other materials and you'll
see it's more insulator than conductor

Thermal Conductivity
- k -
W/(m K)

Glass, wool Insulation 0.04
Gold 310
Gravel 0.7
Ground or soil, very moist area 1.4
Ground or soil, moist area 1.0
Ground or soil, dry area 0.5
Ground or soil, very dry area 0.33

That's even before we consider thermal equilibrium and which direction heat
would move in if the ground below was warmer than the surface of the
driveway, which it almost always is.

It is better than gold, but not nearly as good as insulation. There is
a reason foam board is used to insulate basement floor even though they
are over dirt. I agree it is not an even distribution, but there will
always be loss into the dirt.

Per Mayayana:
I'm surprised how many people here seem to
find it unreasonable to consider shoveling snow.
Does everyone havea bad back?

If somebody is not accustomed to hard work/exercise, I would think that
shoveling snow poses a significant risk.

More so than most activities because it's the kind of thing where you
keep going no matter what - "Just get it done...".

If I'm in shape, no problem... but if I've been sedentary for months
prior....

--
Pete Cresswell

Per songbird:
i think it's a huge waste of energy and
resources... but some people have to have the
drive clear each time it snows.

I wonder what somebody living up in lake-effect-snow country (like
Watertown, NY) would have to say about this.

The one time I was up there, the only bare road that I saw was a rough
circle where the two main streets of town crossed.

AFIK, they did not plow up there. Instead they would run road graders
to smooth out the snow on the roads.

And I never saw anybody stuck or having problems....


In a book called "Paradise Below Zero" by a guy named Calvin Rutstrom,
the author says that their retirement home is in snow country and they
have a second main entrance some feet off the ground which they switch
over to using once the snow gets high enough. And they just go
everywhere via snowmobile.
--
Pete Cresswell

if i don't have to get out for any reason i'll
leave the last few feet of the drive alone until
they finally plow the second or third time. this
way they won't push so much snow into the end of
the driveway. (i.e. remove the pressure and the
flow will come in, so leave some snow and more
stays out).

If we're both digging out to go get groceries or something, we have learned
to take a snow shovel with us. On more than one occasion we have dug our
way out only to have the plow come along and block our driveway again while
we're gone.

for breaking up the frozen piles i have a nice
straight shovel made for trenching that will make
it into chunks to move.

My snow blower seems to handle the berm OK. Sometimes it takes a few
passes, but eventually it cuts through it fine.

sometimes it seems like they wait until i have
the drive clear before they come along and fill it
back in again.

We live on a mountain road. When we get a snow event they have a fleet of
plows that take turns going up and down our road every hour or so. I find
it easier to clear the berm occasionally than wait till it's four feet deep
and frozen solid.

Anthony Watson
www.mountainsoftware.com
www.watsondiy.com