Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?


-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 7:39:51 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?



I've heard that claim before too. IDK, it doesn't make
sense from a humidity standpoint. You have to apply the
same amount of heat to raise the temp of the house. And
it's adding the heat, that causes air to expand. Outside
air is at 50% humidity, but inside it's brought up in
temp, humidity goes down to 30%, etc. The claimed difference
may be due to the effect of feeling some radiated heat from
the radiators, as opposed to force air, where there is
no radiated heat. That could explain the feeling, but
not the humidity, IMO.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

yep. some folks have humidifiers in their
furnaces for that reason. if the air gets too
dry it makes it tougher on the sinuses and can
make it easier to catch colds.

i've lived in both kinds of places. we put
pans of water on the radiators too for putting
more moisture into the air (especially during
the winter).


Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

of course. one uses more recycled indoor air
that already has some humidity (breathing, plants,
from showers, cooking, doing dishes, drying clothes,
etc.) the other uses some air from outdoors and
in the winter can have very low humidity.

one sign of low humidity in the air is more
static electricity in clothes or when you touch
things that are grounded. *zap!*


songbird

On 3/23/2015 8:05 AM, trader_4 wrote:
I've heard that claim before too. IDK, it doesn't make
sense from a humidity standpoint. You have to apply the
same amount of heat to raise the temp of the house. And
it's adding the heat, that causes air to expand. Outside
air is at 50% humidity, but inside it's brought up in
temp, humidity goes down to 30%, etc. The claimed difference
may be due to the effect of feeling some radiated heat from
the radiators, as opposed to force air, where there is
no radiated heat. That could explain the feeling, but
not the humidity, IMO.


As I was reading your text, it makes me wonder if the
air flow is the diff? I mean, fan forced has a fan,
rads do not. Maybe the blowing air evaporates more?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/23/2015 8:08 AM, songbird wrote:
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

yep. some folks have humidifiers in their
furnaces for that reason. if the air gets too
dry it makes it tougher on the sinuses and can
make it easier to catch colds.

CY: Why is radiator different than fan forced?


i've lived in both kinds of places. we put
pans of water on the radiators too for putting
more moisture into the air (especially during
the winter).
CY: Ah, so radiator heat is dry, also?



Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

of course. one uses more recycled indoor air
that already has some humidity (breathing, plants,
from showers, cooking, doing dishes, drying clothes,
etc.) the other uses some air from outdoors and
in the winter can have very low humidity.

CY: All the places I've seen with fan forced hot air
use 100% indoor air to heat, and blow back into the
home.


one sign of low humidity in the air is more
static electricity in clothes or when you touch
things that are grounded. *zap!*


CY: You didn't answer my question.


songbird



..

On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 8:09:06 AM UTC-4, songbird wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

yep. some folks have humidifiers in their
furnaces for that reason. if the air gets too
dry it makes it tougher on the sinuses and can
make it easier to catch colds.

i've lived in both kinds of places. we put
pans of water on the radiators too for putting
more moisture into the air (especially during
the winter).


Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

of course. one uses more recycled indoor air
that already has some humidity (breathing, plants,
from showers, cooking, doing dishes, drying clothes,
etc.) the other uses some air from outdoors and
in the winter can have very low humidity.


I've owned several and seen many more homes with forced air heat.
They used 100% indoor air, unless you're counting the
combustion air that generally comes via the basement.
And even if you are, then a boiler has exactly the same
issue. I have seen one home that has a heat recovery ventilator
added, which allows you to selectively bring in outside air,
when and if you want to, but that is an exception,
a very small percentage of furnace installs. So, IDK
what you're talking about here.

trader_4 wrote:
....
I've owned several and seen many more homes with forced air heat.
They used 100% indoor air, unless you're counting the
combustion air that generally comes via the basement.
And even if you are, then a boiler has exactly the same
issue. I have seen one home that has a heat recovery ventilator
added, which allows you to selectively bring in outside air,
when and if you want to, but that is an exception,
a very small percentage of furnace installs. So, IDK
what you're talking about here.

our setup has a mix of outdoor and reused indoor
air. no humidifier. gets really dry in the winter
months.

in some places there aren't basements so the furnaces
are in the garage, or a utility room or even in the
attic space or outside.

around here there is more basement or crawlspaces
and these can have radon issues. so mixing fresh
air with indoor air is a way to mitigate the radon
problem.


songbird

Stormin Mormon wrote:
songbird wrote:
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

yep. some folks have humidifiers in their
furnaces for that reason. if the air gets too
dry it makes it tougher on the sinuses and can
make it easier to catch colds.

CY: Why is radiator different than fan forced?

speed of air flow. one will be less drafty
than the other.


i've lived in both kinds of places. we put
pans of water on the radiators too for putting
more moisture into the air (especially during
the winter).
CY: Ah, so radiator heat is dry, also?

winter cold air will be drier no matter how
it gets in the house. in the houses i have
been in that had baseboard radiators or even
the older stand up tall radiators they were
also older houses that had more air infiltration
and poorer insulation. so they all felt cold
and that means the heat was turned up a lot more.

last year i caulked around the perimeter of
this house and we noticed a large change in
how drafty it felt this year, we also could
turn the thermostat down a few degrees further
and felt the same amount of comfort.


Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

of course. one uses more recycled indoor air
that already has some humidity (breathing, plants,
from showers, cooking, doing dishes, drying clothes,
etc.) the other uses some air from outdoors and
in the winter can have very low humidity.

CY: All the places I've seen with fan forced hot air
use 100% indoor air to heat, and blow back into the
home.

not ours, but that could be an issue of location
as there are radon gas problems in some areas where
you won't want to use 100% recycled air if your
furnace is in the basement or crawlspace.


one sign of low humidity in the air is more
static electricity in clothes or when you touch
things that are grounded. *zap!*


CY: You didn't answer my question.

there are many reasons for "feelings", perhaps
in one you've felt more of a draft than the other?
however, there can be more than one answer.

what's wrong with having a conversation?


songbird

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

Or is it just not true?

When I lived in a dorm in Boston with radiators for heat, It was very dry. So
dry that you could make a 3/4" long spark when you reach for your door knob. We
all learned to reach with a tightly held key to produce the spark and thereby
reduce the pain. I never had that kind of dryness with forced air heat.

I suppose that a place with steam heated radiators with small steam leaks might
reduce the dryness, but that would be unlikely to work for long.

On 3/23/2015 3:06 PM, Bob F wrote:


When I lived in a dorm in Boston with radiators for heat, It was very dry. So
dry that you could make a 3/4" long spark when you reach for your door knob. We
all learned to reach with a tightly held key to produce the spark and thereby
reduce the pain. I never had that kind of dryness with forced air heat.

I've had it wiht both. I wonder if that dorm is dryer than a typical
house since there is probably less moisture from cooking added to the
air. You get moisture from what cooks and boils and also from the gas
burners. .

On 3/23/2015 3:38 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I've had it wiht both. I wonder if that dorm is dryer than a typical
house since there is probably less moisture from cooking added to the
air. You get moisture from what cooks and boils and also from the gas
burners. .


My parents house is radiators, and that gets
killer dry in the winter. I used to spray hot
water into the air with a plant mister bottle,
that helped a log.

My home of the moment is fan forced air. My
humidifier takes two, or three gallons of water
per day to keep it more comfortable.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:08:57 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/23/2015 3:38 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I've had it wiht both. I wonder if that dorm is dryer than a typical
house since there is probably less moisture from cooking added to the
air. You get moisture from what cooks and boils and also from the gas
burners. .


My parents house is radiators, and that gets
killer dry in the winter. I used to spray hot
water into the air with a plant mister bottle,
that helped a log.

My home of the moment is fan forced air. My
humidifier takes two, or three gallons of water
per day to keep it more comfortable.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
Air infiltration is the biggest cause of low humidity in winter.
Cold air holds VERY little moisture, and when it comes in, it lowers
the relative humidity of the conditioned space very quickly. Leaky
buildings also loose moisture very quickly due to osmosis as moisture
migrates to areas with low humidity.

On 3/23/2015 10:24 PM, wrote:
Air infiltration is the biggest cause of low humidity in winter.
Cold air holds VERY little moisture, and when it comes in, it lowers
the relative humidity of the conditioned space very quickly. Leaky
buildings also loose moisture very quickly due to osmosis as moisture
migrates to areas with low humidity.


Yes, the air exchange will lead to dry. I've heard that
abotu winter air holds nearly no water at all.

I've wondered why my trailer takes two to three gal of
water per day in the humidifier. Must be living in
a wind tunnel. I've got doors and windows, caulked the
windows and put stuff in the door cracks. Still, use
a LOT of water. Must be a LOT of air infiltration some
how.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/23/2015 10:24 PM, wrote:
Air infiltration is the biggest cause of low humidity in winter.
Cold air holds VERY little moisture, and when it comes in, it lowers
the relative humidity of the conditioned space very quickly. Leaky
buildings also loose moisture very quickly due to osmosis as moisture
migrates to areas with low humidity.


Yes, the air exchange will lead to dry. I've heard that
abotu winter air holds nearly no water at all.

I've wondered why my trailer takes two to three gal of
water per day in the humidifier. Must be living in
a wind tunnel. I've got doors and windows, caulked the
windows and put stuff in the door cracks. Still, use
a LOT of water. Must be a LOT of air infiltration some
how.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

prrobably poor vapor barrier, your moisture is moving outside

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 06:20:09 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 3/23/2015 10:24 PM, wrote:
Air infiltration is the biggest cause of low humidity in winter.
Cold air holds VERY little moisture, and when it comes in, it lowers
the relative humidity of the conditioned space very quickly. Leaky
buildings also loose moisture very quickly due to osmosis as moisture
migrates to areas with low humidity.


Yes, the air exchange will lead to dry. I've heard that
abotu winter air holds nearly no water at all.

I've wondered why my trailer takes two to three gal of
water per day in the humidifier. Must be living in
a wind tunnel. I've got doors and windows, caulked the
windows and put stuff in the door cracks. Still, use
a LOT of water. Must be a LOT of air infiltration some
how.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

Most "redneck bungalows" less than abiut 5 years old leak like a
sponge.
prrobably poor vapor barrier, your moisture is moving outside

The trailers I've orked on were lucky to HAVE a vapour barrier. What
vapour barrier was originally installed was usually damaged by rodents
or modifications.

On 3/24/2015 9:20 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've wondered why my trailer takes two to three gal of
water per day in the humidifier. Must be living in
a wind tunnel. I've got doors and windows, caulked the
windows and put stuff in the door cracks. Still, use
a LOT of water. Must be a LOT of air infiltration some
how.


prrobably poor vapor barrier, your moisture is moving outside


Makes me wonder how does one treat for that? There must be a
way, but not sure what that is. I could rip out all the
panelling and replace the fiberglass with vapor barrier
stuff. But, that would be a lot too much work.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/24/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

The trailers I've orked on were lucky to HAVE a vapour barrier. What
vapour barrier was originally installed was usually damaged by rodents
or modifications.


Mine is a 1974 Fairmont. Is it likely to have vapor
barrier?

Mine needs to be orked on. Ork calling Orson!

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:12:33 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

The trailers I've orked on were lucky to HAVE a vapour barrier. What
vapour barrier was originally installed was usually damaged by rodents
or modifications.


Mine is a 1974 Fairmont. Is it likely to have vapor
barrier?

Unlikely to have had an effective vapour barrier when built, and what
was there in 1974 has definitely deteriorated significantly since. A
"tight" 40 foot trailer would not require much if any humidification
with 2 people living in the trailer, with normal living. With one,
perhaps a little bit.
If you are in and out a lot, leaving the door open, it will be dry
Mine needs to be orked on. Ork calling Orson!

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:11:01 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 9:20 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've wondered why my trailer takes two to three gal of
water per day in the humidifier. Must be living in
a wind tunnel. I've got doors and windows, caulked the
windows and put stuff in the door cracks. Still, use
a LOT of water. Must be a LOT of air infiltration some
how.


prrobably poor vapor barrier, your moisture is moving outside


Makes me wonder how does one treat for that? There must be a
way, but not sure what that is. I could rip out all the
panelling and replace the fiberglass with vapor barrier
stuff. But, that would be a lot too much work.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
Pretty hard to retrofit an old trailer. My brother built 2X3 walls
inside the old panelling, insulated with batts, and applied a full
poly vapour barrier over it all before applying T&G pine panelling.
Rock Wool insulation is best because it is rodent proof.

On 3/24/2015 10:31 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:12:33 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 3/24/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

The trailers I've orked on were lucky to HAVE a vapour barrier. What
vapour barrier was originally installed was usually damaged by rodents
or modifications.


Mine is a 1974 Fairmont. Is it likely to have vapor
barrier?

Unlikely to have had an effective vapour barrier when built, and what
was there in 1974 has definitely deteriorated significantly since. A
"tight" 40 foot trailer would notWell, that makes sense. I've thought
for a while that the trailer was not as tight as possible. Still, it's
a bit too much work to pull all the walls and install. I guess it would
save a pile of money on heating, over the years.
require much if any humidification
with 2 people living in the trailer, with normal living. With one,
perhaps a little bit.
If you are in and out a lot, leaving No, don't go in out very
often (not like some folks I've seen). I do put down a towel to block
the gap below the door.
the door open, it will be dry
Mine needs to be orked on. Ork calling Orson!

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 10:10:59 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Makes me wonder how does one treat for that? There must be a
way, but not sure what that is. I could rip out all the
panelling and replace the fiberglass with vapor barrier
stuff. But, that would be a lot too much work.

Apply duct tape to the entire interior.

Problem solved.

A more elegant solution is plaster. There is no better way to seal against infiltration. But it's a lot of work.

On 3/25/2015 8:36 AM, TimR wrote:

Apply duct tape to the entire interior.

Problem solved.

A more elegant solution is plaster. There is no better
way to seal against infiltration. But it's a lot of work.


Where would I buy the rolls of plaster? Maybe medical
supply for broken arm doctors? I like the duct tape
better, I can get it cheap from the guy outside Home
Depot who don't no speakie no Inglis.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?


I have heard contractors refer to forced hot air heat as "scorched air
heat". One time that I heard it was in the context of a project where we
were removing the old baseboard heat system and replacing it with a
gas-fired central HVAC system.

This was just in general conversation with one or two of the general
contractors who were giving estimates on that project and the other work
that was also included in that major renovation job (new roof, new baths, a
fire alarm system, etc). They were saying that one option would be to leave
the existing baseboard heat and just add a central A/C system for the A/C
part.

I took that to mean that gas-fired forced hot air heat systems heat up and
dry out the air before circulating it throughout the house. That seemed to
make sense to me, and I thought that may be one reason why people add a
humidifier to forced hot air heating systems.

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 10:24:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?


I have heard contractors refer to forced hot air heat as "scorched air
heat". One time that I heard it was in the context of a project where we
were removing the old baseboard heat system and replacing it with a
gas-fired central HVAC system.

This was just in general conversation with one or two of the general
contractors who were giving estimates on that project and the other work
that was also included in that major renovation job (new roof, new baths, a
fire alarm system, etc). They were saying that one option would be to leave
the existing baseboard heat and just add a central A/C system for the A/C
part.

I took that to mean that gas-fired forced hot air heat systems heat up and
dry out the air before circulating it throughout the house. That seemed to
make sense to me, and I thought that may be one reason why people add a
humidifier to forced hot air heating systems.

How do they heat it up and dry it out? Forced air moves the air past
an air to air heat exchanger. The same amount of water that was in the
air coming in is also in the air going out, it's just warmer. With
hot water baseboard heat, you have a water to air heat exchanger.
Air moves moves past the heat exchanger via convection. Whatever water
is in the air coming to the radiator is still in the air leaving the
radiator. In neither case is any moisture added or removed.

On 3/25/2015 10:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:


How do they heat it up and dry it out? Forced air moves the air past
an air to air heat exchanger. The same amount of water that was in the
air coming in is also in the air going out, it's just warmer. With
hot water baseboard heat, you have a water to air heat exchanger.
Air moves moves past the heat exchanger via convection. Whatever water
is in the air coming to the radiator is still in the air leaving the
radiator. In neither case is any moisture added or removed.


In my old house it was very dry from the hot air heat. There was a
fairly large flame that used heated air to burn and then it went up the
flue. Of course, it relied on make up air infiltration for makeup from
combustion, thus it brought in a lot of dry air. That heater was made in
1949. I have no idea how it compares to more modern units in

In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 10:24:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
Friend of mine tells me he used to live in a place
with baseboard heaters (probably circulating hot
water) and another place with fan forced hot air.
Says the fan forced heat is very dry, but the place
with the radiators didn't feel dry.

Does this make any sense? Is there a difference?

I have heard contractors refer to forced hot air heat as "scorched
air heat". One time that I heard it was in the context of a project
where we were removing the old baseboard heat system and replacing
it with a gas-fired central HVAC system.
. . . ,
I took that to mean that gas-fired forced hot air heat systems heat
up and dry out the air before circulating it throughout the house.
That seemed to make sense to me, and I thought that may be one
reason why people add a humidifier to forced hot air heating systems.

How do they heat it up and dry it out? Forced air moves the air past
an air to air heat exchanger. The same amount of water that was in
the air coming in is also in the air going out, it's just warmer.
With hot water baseboard heat, you have a water to air heat exchanger.
Air moves past the heat exchanger via convection. Whatever
water is in the air coming to the radiator is still in the air
leaving the radiator. In neither case is any moisture added or
removed.

I don't know which theory or belief is scientifically correct. I do know
that I have heard the term "scorched air heat" before, and it was always
used as a way of saying that forced hot air heating systems supposedly
"scorched" and dried out the air. So, I just did a quick Google search for
"scorched air heat". I was surprised to see that the results showed that it
is a topic that generates opinions on both sides. However, after just doing
a quick look at the Google search results, it does appear that most of the
more scientifically-based responses indicate what you are saying -- that
neither type of system is any better or worse than the other as far as
drying out the ambient air in the space that is being heated.

drywall homes can be painted inside with a vapor barrier paint. might be able to seal the walls with vapor barrier coating like outdoor polyurethane.

probally far easier to add a humidifier

On 3/25/2015 10:56 AM, trader_4 wrote:

How do they heat it up and dry it out? Forced air moves the air past
an air to air heat exchanger. The same amount of water that was in the
air coming in is also in the air going out, it's just warmer. With
hot water baseboard heat, you have a water to air heat exchanger.
Air moves moves past the heat exchanger via convection. Whatever water
is in the air coming to the radiator is still in the air leaving the
radiator. In neither case is any moisture added or removed.


That's my train of thought. The both systems heat without
adding or removing water. Why would they feel different?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 3/25/2015 11:17 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

In my old house it was very dry from the hot air heat. There was a
fairly large flame that used heated air to burn and then it went up the
flue. Of course, it relied on make up air infiltration for makeup from
combustion, thus it brought in a lot of dry air. That heater was made in
1949. I have no idea how it compares to more modern units in

Drawing in air from the outside would dry a lot, as the
out door winter air holds little water. Now days, the
units often use outdoor air for combustion.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..