I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.




---
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We used to do very much the same thing in junior high school. Some kids would simply take a male plug and connect the brass and chrome plated screws inside with a short piece of wire. You plug that into an outlet and it causes a dead short and the breaker trips. No need for an electrical box or a contactor, and it's small enough that you can easily conceal it in your pants pocket.

We would use that plug to short out the outlet where the overhead projector was plugged in so the teacher couldn't use it.

On 11/30/2014 07:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

There was an item in the news a year or two ago about a guy who did that
and set the house on fire.

Neat-O ! ! ! !

Tripping breakers with a dead short? Sounds a bit dangerous to me.

How many dead short trips (as opposed to a slight overload when the toaster comes on) does a breaker have in it? (is that a "bolted fault" in power company speak) Is this the first time that breaker has tripped, or the 100th?

The wire between the outlet and the breaker carries that full current. Are you 100% sure that nowhere on that circuit is a bad splice, a piece of equipment that can't handle an overcurrent, or any other part that can fail? Is the wire itself big enough to handle the full current until the breaker trips? What happens if that breaker is bad and does NOT trip?

On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.


About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.

On 11/30/2014 12:13 PM, nestork wrote:
We used to do very much the same thing in junior high school. Some kids
would simply take a male plug and connect the brass and chrome plated
screws inside with a short piece of wire. You plug that into an outlet
and it causes a dead short and the breaker trips. No need for an
electrical box or a contactor, and it's small enough that you can easily
conceal it in your pants pocket.

We would use that plug to short out the outlet where the overhead
projector was plugged in so the teacher couldn't use it.



"such nice boys!"

Your father and I are so proud.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 12:15 PM, cjt wrote:
On 11/30/2014 07:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)


There was an item in the news a year or two ago about a guy who did that
and set the house on fire.


I'll leave the relevant text above.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org



Six inches, huh? About yer size, I reckon.
LOL

On 11/30/2014 8:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on the pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

"Berndt Butz" wrote in message
...
On 11/30/2014 8:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on the
pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the
transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to
neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing
gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

if you are in Myanamar, have at it.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.

It does not take that much time to do the job right. The guy is going to be
charged a minimum anyway.
Lots of hack jobs are being done just to save a dollar.



---
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.

With good reason. Compensation costs go WAY up when someone gets
killed or seriously injured due to stupidity.

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


---
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wrote in message
...
About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.

With good reason. Compensation costs go WAY up when someone gets
killed or seriously injured due to stupidity.

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.




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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 5:15:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


When I worked for a (well known name) paper company, the penalty for working on a circuit that was not locked out was immediate firing. The penalty for working on a circuit that WAS locked out, but did not have your individual lockout on it too, was also immediate firing. We took Zero Energy State regulations seriously - as does OSHA.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 5:23:55 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.




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Some of the machines we worked on could be fed from more than one breaker, or even more than one panel. There might be a motor circuit, fan circuit, controls circuit. So you could be inside it having tripped one breaker and still be at risk. The only way to avoid that is to know what breakers feed the equipment.

On 11/30/2014 10:42 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


It's unwise to call people lazy and cheap,
unless you've known them in person and are
sure that's the case. There are effective
ways of doing tasks, and this is the one
he chose for this task. I'm OK with that.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 4:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.

It does not take that much time to do the job right. The guy is going to be
charged a minimum anyway.
Lots of hack jobs are being done just to save a dollar.


Actually, Mickey, this electrician I was watching
was working at the church. I think at this moment
he was serving as a service missionary, and the
church did not pay him. He later was offered a
job, and is on the payroll, if I heard and remember
correctly.

While there are lazy and cheap hack jobs, this was
(is) not one of them.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 5:26 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.


In this case, it was a week day. There were two
workers in the building. The electrician popped
the breaker, and I never left his side. There
was zero chance that one of us lazy and cheap
workers would turn on the breaker at that point.

Reminds me, I've got to check my lockout tagout
gear one of these days. I'd not want to be too
lazy and cheap.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 3:31 PM, Berndt Butz wrote:
I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on
the pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the
transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to
neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing
gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

You can find plenty of tutorial videos
on www.youtube.com if you use the right
search terms.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 5:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 2:51 PM, Col. Edmund Burke wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug.


Sure is safer than the Jesus method.


Six inches, huh? About yer size, I reckon.
LOL

Mine's three inches, and not sure I've
got all my wires on my plug. Might be
missing the big round one.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 5:27 PM, TimR wrote:

When I worked for a (well known name) paper
company, the penalty for working on a circuit
that was not locked out was immediate firing.
The penalty for working on a circuit that WAS
locked out, but did not have your individual
lockout on it too, was also immediate firing.
We took Zero Energy State regulations seriously
- as does OSHA.


At the end of the week, was anyone still
employed?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
In this case, it was a week day. There were two
workers in the building. The electrician popped
the breaker, and I never left his side. There
was zero chance that one of us lazy and cheap
workers would turn on the breaker at that point.

Reminds me, I've got to check my lockout tagout
gear one of these days. I'd not want to be too
lazy and cheap.


You never can tell when someone else will come by and turn the power back
on. Where I live I have been told if you want to do some major rewireing
you can pull the meter out of the housing yourself. A licensed electricial
was doing some work at a church. He had pulled the meter, laid it on the
ground and was working inside. He got a bad shock. Went outside and found
someone had put the meter back in. Must have been someone from the power
company as it had the power company seal on it.



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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/30/2014 5:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


But what if someone else comes by and turns on the power ?

Where I worked we had to lock and tag all the disconnects. About the only
exception I can think of is if the disconnect was in direct sight and you
never lost sight of it. Due to other factors we seldom did even this
because we could never tell if we were going to have to leave to get a part
or bathroom break.



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On 11/30/2014 6:43 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
In this case, it was a week day. There were two
workers in the building.

You never can tell when someone else will come by and turn the power back
on. Where I live I have been told if you want to do some major rewireing
you can pull the meter out of the housing yourself. A licensed electricial
was doing some work at a church. He had pulled the meter, laid it on the
ground and was working inside. He got a bad shock. Went outside and found
someone had put the meter back in. Must have been someone from the power
company as it had the power company seal on it.


I'd be tempted to hire attorney to sue the power
co for gross negligence.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 6:48 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message

Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


But what if someone else comes by and turns on the power?


What if, what if. Is that the best you can
offer at this moment? What if you stop writing
silly drivel on my thread?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


You trusted that breaker to a) trip and b) trip fast enough.

If it failed, then you'd have had at least 200 Amps flowing down that branch circuit.

Hopefully that's enough to trip the main breaker. If not, you just burned the church down. If there happens to be enough load on that circuit, you might not trip the main, at least not fast enough.

I would not trust the safety to catch me if I had an easy alternative, and a good electrician would have one. I think I would rather see an electrician work on a circuit live and carefully than stress a breaker that way.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:05:44 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


You trusted that breaker to a) trip and b) trip fast enough.

Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.



If it failed, then you'd have had at least 200 Amps flowing down that branch circuit.


Only until the main breaker opened.




Hopefully that's enough to trip the main breaker. If not, you just burned the church down. If there happens to be enough load on that circuit, you might not trip the main, at least not fast enough.

If it doesn't trip the main breaker, then something is likely wrong with the
main breaker too.



I would not trust the safety to catch me if I had an easy alternative, and a good electrician would have one. I think I would rather see an electrician work on a circuit live and carefully than stress a breaker that way.

And then you'd go on living with that defective breaker and main breaker,
thinking that they are working, when they are not.

On 12/1/2014 4:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.

Exactly!

From: http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/d...e_02-yt-01.pdf

Why Test Circuit Breakers?
They fail. A survey by Hartford Insurance Company found that air
circuit breakers represent 19.5% of electrical power system failures.
Test results on circuit breakers by NETA (InterNational Electrical
Testing Association) firms show over a 15% failure rate.
Defective circuit breakers can allow extensive damage, personnel
injury, or make an outage more widespread when a fault occurs.
They can also trip when they shouldn’t causing expensive downtime.
There is no way to know if a circuit breaker will operate properly
under fault or overload conditions unless it is tested, preferably by
a primary injection test. (Refer to NEMA Standard AB 4 “Guidelines
of Inspection and Preventive Maintenance of Molded Case Circuit
Breakers Used in Commercial and Industrial Applications.”)

On Monday, December 1, 2014 8:05:49 AM UTC-5, Berndt Butz wrote:
On 12/1/2014 4:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.

Exactly!

From: http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/d...e_02-yt-01.pdf

Why Test Circuit Breakers?
They fail. A survey by Hartford Insurance Company found that air
circuit breakers represent 19.5% of electrical power system failures.
Test results on circuit breakers by NETA (InterNational Electrical
Testing Association) firms show over a 15% failure rate.

Well, maybe this isn't as bad a practice as I thought.

I looked at this:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0600DB0105.pdf

which has some interesting graphs on the speed breakers should open.

If I'm understanding correctly, it might be safer to overload the breaker with a dead short, because the magnetic component will react much faster than the thermal component does with a lesser overload. The length of time for a breaker to trip on a mild overload (double) is scarey.

It is also possible that the breaker for that circuit would not trip at all, because a dead short overcurrent might trip the main breaker first. That leaves you not knowing which breaker controlled that circuit, but maybe that's nto a problem. Well, wait, maybe it is. Now you don't know if your breaker for that circuit is bad and didn't trip when it should, or is good but because of coordination the main went first.

The point about finding a bad breaker with an electrician present is valid. But that assumes he's a good one! Since shorting an outlet to find a breaker is not standard practice, that remains to be proven.

Suppose you short an outlet and the breaker doesn't trip immediately. What do you do now?

"TimR" wrote in message
...
On Monday, December 1, 2014 8:05:49 AM UTC-5, Berndt Butz wrote:
On 12/1/2014 4:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.

Exactly!

From:
http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/d...e_02-yt-01.pdf

Why Test Circuit Breakers?
They fail. A survey by Hartford Insurance Company found that air
circuit breakers represent 19.5% of electrical power system failures.
Test results on circuit breakers by NETA (InterNational Electrical
Testing Association) firms show over a 15% failure rate.

Well, maybe this isn't as bad a practice as I thought.

I looked at this:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0600DB0105.pdf

which has some interesting graphs on the speed breakers should open.

If I'm understanding correctly, it might be safer to overload the breaker
with a dead short, because the magnetic component will react much faster
than the thermal component does with a lesser overload. The length of time
for a breaker to trip on a mild overload (double) is scarey.

It is also possible that the breaker for that circuit would not trip at all,
because a dead short overcurrent might trip the main breaker first. That
leaves you not knowing which breaker controlled that circuit, but maybe
that's nto a problem. Well, wait, maybe it is. Now you don't know if your
breaker for that circuit is bad and didn't trip when it should, or is good
but because of coordination the main went first.

The point about finding a bad breaker with an electrician present is valid.
But that assumes he's a good one! Since shorting an outlet to find a
breaker is not standard practice, that remains to be proven.

Suppose you short an outlet and the breaker doesn't trip immediately. What
do you do now?

-----------

you are supposed to remove the breaker and test it in a test set up, not by
testing it in place and threatening your home.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.

What a surprise that people insane enough to pop breakers like that have a
bizarre kind of mutual respect. You two could easily be the inspiration for
the movie "Dumb and Dumber." As someone else noted you could have very well
burned down the church with your ill-advised shortcut.

FWIW, nowadays, "people" is almost always the right choice when you are
talking about more than one person. Some dictionaries don't even include
"persons" as the plural of "person" anymore, and the few dictionaries that
do include "persons" note that it is uncommon, archaic, or going out of
style.

--
Bobby G.

On Monday, December 1, 2014 9:03:22 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Monday, December 1, 2014 8:05:49 AM UTC-5, Berndt Butz wrote:
On 12/1/2014 4:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.

Exactly!

From: http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/d...e_02-yt-01.pdf

Why Test Circuit Breakers?
They fail. A survey by Hartford Insurance Company found that air
circuit breakers represent 19.5% of electrical power system failures.
Test results on circuit breakers by NETA (InterNational Electrical
Testing Association) firms show over a 15% failure rate.

Well, maybe this isn't as bad a practice as I thought.

I looked at this:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/...0600DB0105.pdf

which has some interesting graphs on the speed breakers should open.

If I'm understanding correctly, it might be safer to overload the breaker with a dead short, because the magnetic component will react much faster than the thermal component does with a lesser overload. The length of time for a breaker to trip on a mild overload (double) is scarey.

It is also possible that the breaker for that circuit would not trip at all, because a dead short overcurrent might trip the main breaker first. That leaves you not knowing which breaker controlled that circuit, but maybe that's nto a problem. Well, wait, maybe it is. Now you don't know if your breaker for that circuit is bad and didn't trip when it should, or is good but because of coordination the main went first.

The point about finding a bad breaker with an electrician present is valid. But that assumes he's a good one! Since shorting an outlet to find a breaker is not standard practice, that remains to be proven.

Suppose you short an outlet and the breaker doesn't trip immediately. What do you do now?

Turn off the test load or dead short switch and look for a fire. But, if
neither breaker trips, with a dead short, you probably don't have time to
do that. With a little thought, you could come up with a tester that could
test it safely. Or a "tripper" that would pull greater than breaker current
to trip it, without being a dead short, etc. Unless Stormin knows for sure
what was in that electrician's box, it's possible it is that kind of tripper,
ie there is more in there than a dead-short switch.

I'm with Trader on this one.

I can see a small market for a combination rheostat and ammeter that would plug into a wall outlet (or light bulb socket) and allow a person to increase the amperage in the circuit by reducing the resistance across the gizmo until the breaker tripped. The purpose of which would be to test the tripping amperage of circuit breakers. I expect that if you can't buy such a gizmo it would be easy enough to make one.

But I can see several problem, too. Lots of circuits don't have electrical outlets on them, and most that do often have multiple outlets on them. Even something like a laser printer or TV set will be drawing significant current when the device is shut off. That's because many electronic devices need to draw that current all the time in order to be "instant on" when you do want to use them. Otherwise people would have to wait minutes for the device to come up to operating temperature before they could use them, and a laser printer is a perfect example of that.

Also, there are lots of electrical panels that use fuses, and the rheostat/ammeter wouldn't work on those since every time you replace a fuse you don't know if the new one will blow earlier or later than the one you replaced.

On 12/1/2014 10:14 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Turn off the test load or dead short switch and look for a fire. But, if
neither breaker trips, with a dead short, you probably don't have time to
do that. With a little thought, you could come up with a tester that could
test it safely. Or a "tripper" that would pull greater than breaker current
to trip it, without being a dead short, etc. Unless Stormin knows for sure
what was in that electrician's box, it's possible it is that kind of tripper,
ie there is more in there than a dead-short switch.


Electrician said to be sure to get at least
80 amp button, so as not to fry the contacts
on the device.

I've also considered using two hair dryers
to trip a breaker. Two at 15 amp load.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"nestork" wrote in message
...

I can see a small market for a combination rheostat and ammeter that
would plug into a wall outlet (or light bulb socket) and allow a person
to increase the amperage in the circuit by reducing the resistance
across the gizmo until the breaker tripped. I expect that if you can't
buy such a gizmo it would be easy enough to make one.


You will not have the amp meter but you could always use 2 hair dryers.
Each one is rated just below the breaker rating. Turn one on and then turn
on the other to do the actual tripping. Feel free to subistute any other
two devices that the total is close to two times the rating of the breakers.
Go to about 2 times the rating because as discussed above the smaller the
overload the longer it will take for the breaker to trip.



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I tried to google to find out how long a circuit breaker will last.

It turns out quite a while, on mechanical operation or overload.

One Square D breaker I found data for was rated at 12,500 cycles mechanical operation (meaning you turned it off by hand) and 2,800 electrical operation (meaning it overloaded but did NOT fault). I would think mechanical operation would depend on how much current was being drawn at the time, and I always try to turn off loads before flipping a breaker just in case. We had a nasty explosion in the plant once when somebody flipped a disconnect under load.

I could not find the fault rating for that breaker but several other searches said a breaker is guaranteed to interrupt the full fault current (meaning a short) ONCE, and should be replaced after twice. So Stormin and his buddy just reduced the life of that breaker by 50%.

AND: violated OSHA in the process. OSHA says it is forbidden to re-energize a tripped breaker without inspection and testing, UNLESS it is known that the trip was caused by a simple overload and not a fault current. The arcing of a fault current can damage the contacts that have to open to interrupt the current. OSHA applies to a workplace, I'm not sure if that includes a church or not. Anyway, that breaker did not see a routine overload, but full bolted fault current.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
I tried to google to find out how long a circuit breaker will last.

It turns out quite a while, on mechanical operation or overload.

One Square D breaker I found data for was rated at 12,500 cycles mechanical
operation (meaning you turned it off by hand) and 2,800 electrical
operation (meaning it overloaded but did NOT fault). I would think
mechanical operation would depend on how much current was being drawn at
the time, and I always try to turn off loads before flipping a breaker
just in case. We had a nasty explosion in the plant once when somebody
flipped a disconnect under load.

I could not find the fault rating for that breaker but several other
searches said a breaker is guaranteed to interrupt the full fault current
(meaning a short) ONCE, and should be replaced after twice. So Stormin and
his .buddy just reduced the life of that breaker by 50%.

AND: violated OSHA in the process. OSHA says it is forbidden to
re-energize a tripped breaker without inspection and testing, UNLESS it is
known that the trip was caused by a simple overload and not a fault
current. The arcing of a fault current can damage the contacts that have
to open to interrupt the .current. .OSHA .applies to a workplace, I'm not
sure if that includes a church or not. Anyway, that breaker .did not see
a routine overload, but full bolted fault current.

There are several kinds of breakers. Some are made to use as switches such
as cutting lights off every night and some are not to be used as switches.

I could send some pix of an explosion where I worked. This was in a 480
volt 3 phase motor control center that was fed with another breaker of about
300 amps. The MCC has about 10 rows and 5 motor starters and breakers, each
one about a foot square. An electrician turned on a 15 amp
breaker/disconnect and something arcked and took out most of the MCC.



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