I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.




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On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.


About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.

It does not take that much time to do the job right. The guy is going to be
charged a minimum anyway.
Lots of hack jobs are being done just to save a dollar.



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On 11/30/2014 4:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"micky" wrote in message

What about all the extra time these two methods take. Time is money.
And the customer doesn't want to pay by the hour for him to listen to
the radio and walk back and forth down the hall or the stairs.

It does not take that much time to do the job right. The guy is going to be
charged a minimum anyway.
Lots of hack jobs are being done just to save a dollar.


Actually, Mickey, this electrician I was watching
was working at the church. I think at this moment
he was serving as a service missionary, and the
church did not pay him. He later was offered a
job, and is on the payroll, if I heard and remember
correctly.

While there are lazy and cheap hack jobs, this was
(is) not one of them.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.


He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.

With good reason. Compensation costs go WAY up when someone gets
killed or seriously injured due to stupidity.

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


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wrote in message
...
About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.

With good reason. Compensation costs go WAY up when someone gets
killed or seriously injured due to stupidity.

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.




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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 5:23:55 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.




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Some of the machines we worked on could be fed from more than one breaker, or even more than one panel. There might be a motor circuit, fan circuit, controls circuit. So you could be inside it having tripped one breaker and still be at risk. The only way to avoid that is to know what breakers feed the equipment.

On 11/30/2014 5:26 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message

Better to work on a known live circuit than an unlocked dead one.


I did leave that part out. After tripping the breaker we did look for it
and then lock and tag it. After all it still needs to be turned back on at
some point.


In this case, it was a week day. There were two
workers in the building. The electrician popped
the breaker, and I never left his side. There
was zero chance that one of us lazy and cheap
workers would turn on the breaker at that point.

Reminds me, I've got to check my lockout tagout
gear one of these days. I'd not want to be too
lazy and cheap.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
In this case, it was a week day. There were two
workers in the building. The electrician popped
the breaker, and I never left his side. There
was zero chance that one of us lazy and cheap
workers would turn on the breaker at that point.

Reminds me, I've got to check my lockout tagout
gear one of these days. I'd not want to be too
lazy and cheap.


You never can tell when someone else will come by and turn the power back
on. Where I live I have been told if you want to do some major rewireing
you can pull the meter out of the housing yourself. A licensed electricial
was doing some work at a church. He had pulled the meter, laid it on the
ground and was working inside. He got a bad shock. Went outside and found
someone had put the meter back in. Must have been someone from the power
company as it had the power company seal on it.



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On Sunday, November 30, 2014 5:15:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


When I worked for a (well known name) paper company, the penalty for working on a circuit that was not locked out was immediate firing. The penalty for working on a circuit that WAS locked out, but did not have your individual lockout on it too, was also immediate firing. We took Zero Energy State regulations seriously - as does OSHA.

On 11/30/2014 5:27 PM, TimR wrote:

When I worked for a (well known name) paper
company, the penalty for working on a circuit
that was not locked out was immediate firing.
The penalty for working on a circuit that WAS
locked out, but did not have your individual
lockout on it too, was also immediate firing.
We took Zero Energy State regulations seriously
- as does OSHA.


At the end of the week, was anyone still
employed?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 5:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/30/2014 5:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:42:53 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

And NEVER do it in that situation, because sure as shootin' someone
will want to use something else on that circuit and will turn it on
jast as you grab onto the wires. In a plant you MUST lock out the
circuit you are working on. No IFS, ANDS or BUTS about it. Get caught
working on a circuit that is not locked out in many shops you end up
taking the rest of the day (or week) off without pay.


Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


But what if someone else comes by and turns on the power ?

Where I worked we had to lock and tag all the disconnects. About the only
exception I can think of is if the disconnect was in direct sight and you
never lost sight of it. Due to other factors we seldom did even this
because we could never tell if we were going to have to leave to get a part
or bathroom break.



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On 11/30/2014 6:48 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message

Ralph will promptly tell you that he's
not too lazy or cheap to do the job right.

In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


But what if someone else comes by and turns on the power?


What if, what if. Is that the best you can
offer at this moment? What if you stop writing
silly drivel on my thread?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


You trusted that breaker to a) trip and b) trip fast enough.

If it failed, then you'd have had at least 200 Amps flowing down that branch circuit.

Hopefully that's enough to trip the main breaker. If not, you just burned the church down. If there happens to be enough load on that circuit, you might not trip the main, at least not fast enough.

I would not trust the safety to catch me if I had an easy alternative, and a good electrician would have one. I think I would rather see an electrician work on a circuit live and carefully than stress a breaker that way.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 8:05:44 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.


You trusted that breaker to a) trip and b) trip fast enough.

Not that I'm advocating the method, but if the breaker doesn't work,
maybe it's better to find out while an electrician is there, watching,
instead of some future time when it similarly won't trip with an
accidental fault.



If it failed, then you'd have had at least 200 Amps flowing down that branch circuit.


Only until the main breaker opened.




Hopefully that's enough to trip the main breaker. If not, you just burned the church down. If there happens to be enough load on that circuit, you might not trip the main, at least not fast enough.

If it doesn't trip the main breaker, then something is likely wrong with the
main breaker too.



I would not trust the safety to catch me if I had an easy alternative, and a good electrician would have one. I think I would rather see an electrician work on a circuit live and carefully than stress a breaker that way.

And then you'd go on living with that defective breaker and main breaker,
thinking that they are working, when they are not.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:01:37 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
In my case, there were two persons in the
church building at the moment he used his
breaker popper. We respected each other
enough to work safely.

What a surprise that people insane enough to pop breakers like that have a
bizarre kind of mutual respect. You two could easily be the inspiration for
the movie "Dumb and Dumber." As someone else noted you could have very well
burned down the church with your ill-advised shortcut.

FWIW, nowadays, "people" is almost always the right choice when you are
talking about more than one person. Some dictionaries don't even include
"persons" as the plural of "person" anymore, and the few dictionaries that
do include "persons" note that it is uncommon, archaic, or going out of
style.

--
Bobby G.

On 11/30/2014 10:42 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
He is too lazey and cheep to buy one of the electronic detectors. The one
where you plug a small box in the receptical and go to the breaker panel and
run a hand held device up and down and find the correct breaker.

If it was just down the hall and within hearing range, a small radio that
plugs in makes a good way to tell which one supplies the power.

About the only time I might recommend the short is if there are critical
items that can not be turned off for a few seconds , or if in the case of
where I worked in a very large plant a great difficulty of locating the
power source due to multi breaker boxes and floors and buildings.


It's unwise to call people lazy and cheap,
unless you've known them in person and are
sure that's the case. There are effective
ways of doing tasks, and this is the one
he chose for this task. I'm OK with that.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

We used to do very much the same thing in junior high school. Some kids would simply take a male plug and connect the brass and chrome plated screws inside with a short piece of wire. You plug that into an outlet and it causes a dead short and the breaker trips. No need for an electrical box or a contactor, and it's small enough that you can easily conceal it in your pants pocket.

We would use that plug to short out the outlet where the overhead projector was plugged in so the teacher couldn't use it.

Tripping breakers with a dead short? Sounds a bit dangerous to me.

How many dead short trips (as opposed to a slight overload when the toaster comes on) does a breaker have in it? (is that a "bolted fault" in power company speak) Is this the first time that breaker has tripped, or the 100th?

The wire between the outlet and the breaker carries that full current. Are you 100% sure that nowhere on that circuit is a bad splice, a piece of equipment that can't handle an overcurrent, or any other part that can fail? Is the wire itself big enough to handle the full current until the breaker trips? What happens if that breaker is bad and does NOT trip?

On 11/30/2014 12:13 PM, nestork wrote:
We used to do very much the same thing in junior high school. Some kids
would simply take a male plug and connect the brass and chrome plated
screws inside with a short piece of wire. You plug that into an outlet
and it causes a dead short and the breaker trips. No need for an
electrical box or a contactor, and it's small enough that you can easily
conceal it in your pants pocket.

We would use that plug to short out the outlet where the overhead
projector was plugged in so the teacher couldn't use it.



"such nice boys!"

Your father and I are so proud.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 07:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

There was an item in the news a year or two ago about a guy who did that
and set the house on fire.

Neat-O ! ! ! !

On 11/30/2014 12:15 PM, cjt wrote:
On 11/30/2014 07:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)


There was an item in the news a year or two ago about a guy who did that
and set the house on fire.


I'll leave the relevant text above.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

Neat! I ocurred to me that he'd used a huge
contactor to drop a dead short, and shut off the
breaker to the socket he was replacing.

(note to all: Please do not try this if you have
a Federal Pacific Electric stabloc panel.)

I went home and made such a device out of a 15
amp toggle switch with light. First time I tried
it, I fused the contacts, and the switch would
not turn off. Took that out and put in a 20 amp
Leviton switch, and have used it several times
without trouble.

I labelled it "off" and "pop".

Sure is safer than the Jesus method.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org



Six inches, huh? About yer size, I reckon.
LOL

On 11/30/2014 2:51 PM, Col. Edmund Burke wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug.


Sure is safer than the Jesus method.


Six inches, huh? About yer size, I reckon.
LOL

Mine's three inches, and not sure I've
got all my wires on my plug. Might be
missing the big round one.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/30/2014 8:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on the pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

"Berndt Butz" wrote in message
...
On 11/30/2014 8:40 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I watched and old electrician, about to change a
recepticle / socket. He had a junction box on about
six inches of cord, with a three wire plug. He
plugged the device in, and pushed a big rubber
covered button. Down the hall I could hear a
breaker go clunk.

I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on the
pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the
transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to
neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing
gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

if you are in Myanamar, have at it.

On 11/30/2014 3:31 PM, Berndt Butz wrote:
I gotta change out my meter socket and would rather not work it hot.
I got an aluminum ladder so I could just disconnect the transformer on
the pole but you got me thinking it might be easier to just trip the
transformer's breaker.
Should I pop the meter and short across the two hot legs or short hot to
neutral?
(To be safe, I'll wear safety glasses and my wife's rubber dishwashing
gloves.)
Oh, this is 2-phase, if that matters.

You can find plenty of tutorial videos
on www.youtube.com if you use the right
search terms.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..