On 10/13/2014 10:10 AM, bob haller wrote:


The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light to eat by


Amazing how anyone with a few mechanical skills can be a hero. Right
place, right time. You probably saved them some big bucks over an
electrician.

On 10/13/2014 11:26 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/13/2014 10:10 AM, bob haller wrote:


The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come
on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till
had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the
bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light
to eat by


Amazing how anyone with a few mechanical skills can be a hero. Right
place, right time. You probably saved them some big bucks over an
electrician.


The regular switch didn't operate X10?


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his
behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to
run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the
panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong
outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies
and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I
just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has
mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape"
as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes
and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with
a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong
receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are
grounded to the metal outlet box.

Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)?

On 10/22/2014 11:46 PM, wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the
thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle
a preposition)?


At least a dangling preposition you won't
be shocking with.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)?

And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be
the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that.
Meaning you can't use a thin wire.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to
(to dangle a preposition)?

And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be
the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that.
Meaning you can't use a thin wire.

In my case, the old style "Romex" is 14 gauge wire with a 16 gauge ground
wire. And, in an earlier post about this old style of wiring gfretwell
wrote,

"As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a
ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s
when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong
outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew
up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We
retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days
it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.",

and he also wrote,

"[One] ... could easily make the case that the 16ga ground wire in old Romex
is not up to current code (true) but it is plenty to operate the over
current device in a fault."

I decided to just go with those thoughts in mind and just converted some of
the 2-prong receptacles to self-grounding 3-prong receptacles attached to
the grounded metal outlet boxes.

wrote in message
...
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to
(to dangle a preposition)?


I assume that this was in reply to my post which said, that I

".....just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which
has
mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape"
as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes
and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with
a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong
receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are
grounded to the metal outlet box."

And, yes, the other end of the thing bare wire for each circuit was attached
to the ground bar in the main panel.

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:18:27 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to
(to dangle a preposition)?

And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be
the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that.
Meaning you can't use a thin wire.

In my case, the old style "Romex" is 14 gauge wire with a 16 gauge ground
wire. And, in an earlier post about this old style of wiring gfretwell
wrote,

"As another poster said, you really need to verify that there is not a
ground in the existing cable. There was a period of time in the 60s
when you were required to ground the boxes but you didn't need 3 prong
outlets. The grounded Romex was available in the 50s. The house I grew
up in, built in 53, had 2 prong outlets and 3 wire Romex. We
retrofitted the 3 prong outlets, pigtailing from the box. These days
it is much easier with self grounding receptacle.",

and he also wrote,

"[One] ... could easily make the case that the 16ga ground wire in old Romex
is not up to current code (true) but it is plenty to operate the over
current device in a fault."

I decided to just go with those thoughts in mind and just converted some of
the 2-prong receptacles to self-grounding 3-prong receptacles attached to
the grounded metal outlet boxes.

I would agree that from a practical standpoint and given the situation,
16 gauge is OK. But I wouldn't exactly call 16 gauge "thin" either. It's
only one gauge smaller than the conductor.

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his
behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to
run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the
panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong
outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies
and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I
just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has
mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape"
as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes
and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with
a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong
receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are
grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 7:36:10 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Did you check what the other end of the thin bare wire was connected to (to dangle a preposition)?

And what size that "thin" wire actually is? I think by code it has to be
the same size as the branch circuit conductor, but not sure on that.
Meaning you can't use a thin wire.

In a AC (BX) cable there's a thin metal strip that runs inside the armor so provide a grounding path. it isn't anywhere near as large as the current carrying conductors, its primary purpose is to bond together the armor to prevent a condition where if it's flexed enough the current isn't taking a spiral path.

Now current production AC will have a separate ground wire within it, although as far as I know using grounding type receptacles on old AC is still completely acceptable.

nate

On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his
behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good
condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to
run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the
panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong
outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the replies
and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message because I
just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly" own and which has
mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing wiring is in very good shape"
as in the original question. I discovered that it has metal outlet boxes
and all of the 2-prong receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with
a thin ground wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the 2-prong
receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong receptacles that are
grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX" correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me.

In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets
back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace
the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in
very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the
replies and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message
because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly"
own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing
wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I
discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong
receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground
wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the
2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong
receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX"
correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and
what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation
where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding
clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy
pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me.

Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like
Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe
that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It
looks like the middle gray wire in this photo:
http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg

On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets
back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace
the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in
very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the
replies and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message
because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly"
own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing
wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I
discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong
receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground
wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the
2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong
receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX"
correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and
what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation
where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding
clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy
pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me.

Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like
Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe
that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It
looks like the middle gray wire in this photo:
http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg

Also visible is the word "ground" stamped on the cable. So, clearly
the ground wire in the cable was code compliant at the time it was
installed. And I agree with you, it's fine to use now.

On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets
back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace
the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in
very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the
replies and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message
because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly"
own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing
wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I
discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong
receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground
wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the
2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong
receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX"
correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and
what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation
where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding
clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy
pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me.

Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like
Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe
that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It
looks like the middle gray wire in this photo:
http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg

Oh, gotcha. But it does have a separate ground conductor, probably 16AWG? I'd use it. If it were readily accessable beginning to end I might replace it but otherwise it's fine. Be aware however that it probably doesn't have the same temperature rating as modern NM-B cable so if feeding e.g. a light fixture tight to the ceiling with an enclosed incandescent that will make the insulation very brittle... when working in those boxes be prepared with black and white electrical tape or heat shrink to patch it up.

nate

On Friday, October 24, 2014 11:09:31 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:39:17 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
In ,
trader_4 typed:
On Friday, October 24, 2014 8:18:30 AM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"TomR" wrote in message
...
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know
and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some
feedback on his behalf:

He wrote,

"In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in
good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current
electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets
back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace
the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in
very good shape."

Thanks everyone. As I mentioned previously, I did read all of the
replies and passed on the info that I learned etc.

But, I decided to come back to this and post an additional message
because I just got done doing work on a house that I "indirectly"
own and which has mostly all 2-prong outlets where the "Existing
wiring is in very good shape" as in the original question. I
discovered that it has metal outlet boxes and all of the 2-prong
receptacles are in metal boxes that are grounded with a thin ground
wire that runs inside the same sheathed wire that contains the
black and white wires. So, I was able to switch out some of the
2-prong receptacles and replace them with regular 3-prong
receptacles that are grounded to the metal outlet box.

When you say "sheathed wire" you are referring to type AC aka "BX"
correct? Just wanted to make sure. If so, everything is fine and
what you've done is perfectly OK. In fact, this is a situation
where buying "spec grade" receptacles with the little self-grounding
clip can save you a lot of work; then you don't have to make up/buy
pigtails or drill/tap your boxes for ground screws.

nate

I'm taking bets it's not BX, AC. Sounds like non-metallic to me.

Correct. Definitely not BX. It is NM (non-metallic) wire that looks like
Romex, but the sheathing appears to be a gray cloth-like material. Maybe
that was the original version of Romex brand wire, but I am not sure. It
looks like the middle gray wire in this photo:
http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachmen...g-img_5281.jpg

Oh, gotcha. But it does have a separate ground conductor, probably 16AWG? I'd use it. If it were readily accessable beginning to end I might replace it but otherwise it's fine. Be aware however that it probably doesn't have the same temperature rating as modern NM-B cable so if feeding e.g. a light fixture tight to the ceiling with an enclosed incandescent that will make the insulation very brittle... when working in those boxes be prepared with black and white electrical tape or heat shrink to patch it up.

nate

Forgot to add. I'm not sure when the ground conductor started to be the same gauge as the current carrying conductors, however, i've seen real plastic jacketed NM with 16AWG grounds, my last house was full of it (obviously a retro; the house was built in the late 40's with a mix of BX and ungrounded cloth sheathed NM)

nate