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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I
thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/08/2014 8:39 AM, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Yes -- |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks. *Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but the short answer is yes. John Grabowski http://www.MrElectrician.TV |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
Tom,
As the others have said the answer is yes. But check to see if the outlet boxes are grounded. You might get lucky. Dave M. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"John G" wrote in message
... On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote: This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." *Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but the short answer is yes. Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information. I had also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the outlets, it may be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the outlets as it would to run separate ground wires to the same outlets. And, I mentioned the option of replacing 2-prong outlets with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any new ground wires etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No equipment ground" As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do that as it would to run separate ground wires. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/08/2014 09:39 AM, TomR wrote:
This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks. Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg had done that? |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"Hosan Pyped" wrote in message ... On 10/08/2014 09:39 AM, TomR wrote: This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks. Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg had done that? what is the difference? a wire is a wire. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
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Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"Pico Rico" wrote in message
... "Hosan Pyped" wrote in message ... Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg had done that? what is the difference? a wire is a wire. If I saw a separate wire pulled to an outlet box I'd be uneasy about where it went and whether it really tied into the proper place. (In fact I have seen that and I was uneasy because some kid did it in my old house and then put up two different ceilings that made it very hard to trace back. In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. While the outlet appeared koshed with an outlet tested, a replumbing job with plastic pipe could have ended up with an open ground.) I'm with Pyped and several other posters who advised that running new NM was the was to go. I'd bet a competent home inspector would red flag a ground wire going to places unknown, especially if it ran under sheetrock or stapled ceiling tiles or was in some other way untraceable visually. To be sure it was tied into the panel you'd have to hire an electrican to trace it with a fox and hound. I am surprised the NEC allows a separate ground to be run outside the main cable sheath or conduit. If it runs somewhere other than along the main cable or conduit, the chance of someone disconnecting it at some future time because it seemed unrelated to the 110VAC wiring is another risk. GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and I'd rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire, especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"Robert Green" wrote in message ... "Pico Rico" wrote in message ... "Hosan Pyped" wrote in message ... Regardless of electrical code, would you buy a house where some jackleg had done that? what is the difference? a wire is a wire. If I saw a separate wire pulled to an outlet box I'd be uneasy about where it went and whether it really tied into the proper place. (In fact I have seen that and I was uneasy because some kid did it in my old house and then put up two different ceilings that made it very hard to trace back. In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. While the outlet appeared koshed with an outlet tested, a replumbing job with plastic pipe could have ended up with an open ground.) I'm with Pyped and several other posters who advised that running new NM was the was to go. I'd bet a competent home inspector would red flag a ground wire going to places unknown, especially if it ran under sheetrock or stapled ceiling tiles or was in some other way untraceable visually. To be sure it was tied into the panel you'd have to hire an electrican to trace it with a fox and hound. I am surprised the NEC allows a separate ground to be run outside the main cable sheath or conduit. If it runs somewhere other than along the main cable or conduit, the chance of someone disconnecting it at some future time because it seemed unrelated to the 110VAC wiring is another risk. GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and I'd rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire, especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable. Well, that's a good explanation. My initial thinking is that it would be placed along the entire run back to the panel. But, that is how **I** would do it. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:31:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote:
"John G" wrote in message ... On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 9:39:45 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote: This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." *Article 250.130(C) in the National Electrical Code gives the options, but the short answer is yes. Thanks John and all for your replies. I passed on the information. I had also mentioned to him that depending on the location of the outlets, it may be almost just as easy to run new NM wiring to the outlets as it would to run separate ground wires to the same outlets. And, I mentioned the option of replacing 2-prong outlets with 3-prong GFCI outlets, without running any new ground wires etc., as long as the GFCI had a sticker that said "No equipment ground" As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do that as it would to run separate ground wires. In that situation I would agree, that's the right way to do it. The only reason to run the separate wires and/or use GFCIs is if replacing the cables is prohibitively difficult. nate |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/11/2014 9:21 AM, N8N wrote:
On Friday, October 10, 2014 11:31:22 AM UTC-4, TomR wrote: As it turned out, the outlets in question were first floor outlets above an open ceiling basement. So, he ended up having an electrician just run all new NM wiring to those outlets on the first floor -- basically because the electrician said that it would take almost the same amount of effort to do that as it would to run separate ground wires. In that situation I would agree, that's the right way to do it. The only reason to run the separate wires and/or use GFCIs is if replacing the cables is prohibitively difficult. nate It sure looks like an easy decision. I'd go with new Romex, and sockets. Might even go with new breakers, while you have the panel box open. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
wrote in message
wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. -- Bobby G. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t......
BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:42:27 PM UTC-4, John G wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote: wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. -- Bobby G. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe.. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated. nate |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:21:45 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:42:27 PM UTC-4, John G wrote: On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote: wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. -- Bobby G. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated. nate *Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:00:19 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote: wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. My bet is the ceiling was installed LONG before home inspectors became in vogue. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. Ant it was likely done long before plastic pipe was an approved option. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. Except the upgrade was likely done either during or before the seventies. - so not ENTIRELY a moot point. It was "standard practice" and "approved" when it was done. Not to say it should not be redone today. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:42:27 -0700 (PDT), John G
wrote: On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote: wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it was clamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a hell of a mess. I would not even had known about it until I took the ceiling down (revealing all sorts of other nasty surprises). I am sure the previous owner installed that stapled up ceiling to keep those sorts of issues from the eyes of a good home inspector. It was also far enough away from the service entrance that a replacement of a section of copper with plastic where it entered the house would have broken the connection to ground. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. -- Bobby G. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. By code NO electrical connection is allowed to be "concealed". Ground or otherwise, they must be "accessible" - and above a stapled ceiling does not comply. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote: the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t...... BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was all "ungrounded romex" |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote: the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t...... BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was all "ungrounded romex" To be fair, if accessable, you could make a good argument for replacing that as well, because any ungrounded non-metallic cable likely does not have a 90C temperature rating as does currently produced NM-B. If I saw any K&T I'd be tempted to draw up a plan for eventual complete replacement ASAP however... even if it was done perfectly when installed simple age makes one worry about the integrity of the insulation... nothing lasts forever. nate |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"N8N" wrote in message ... On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote: the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t...... BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was all "ungrounded romex" To be fair, if accessable, you could make a good argument for replacing that as well, because any ungrounded non-metallic cable likely does not have a 90C temperature rating as does currently produced NM-B. If I saw any K&T I'd be tempted to draw up a plan for eventual complete replacement ASAP however... even if it was done perfectly when installed simple age makes one worry about the integrity of the insulation... nothing lasts forever. nate Are you saying you would draw up your plan ASAP for eventual replacement? Why the hurry for plans for eventual replacement? Why not eventually come up with plans for the thereafter ASAP replacement? Or ASAP plans and ASAP replacement? Or . . . |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On 10/11/2014 2:46 PM, John G wrote:
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:21:45 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote: *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. My understanding is that the water pipe is NOT considered part of the grounding electrode system, only something that needs to be bonded *to* the grounding electrode system, so relying on a metal pipe for a ground for a previously ungrounded receptacle is no longer allowed, as others have already stated. nate *Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted. 320:1 is a heck of a quoted text ratio. I'm guessing that would burn up Danny's chain saw. Sure does, mine. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote: the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t...... BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was all "ungrounded romex" Copy and paste of first post... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks NOTE: around here the most common ungrounded outletsare because of K&T |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"John G" wrote in message On Saturday,
October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50: The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system IF and only if 1) The water meter is jumpered 2) the water heater is jumpered 3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is jumpered 4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add). I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles (this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a load on the second outlet of the receptable in question. It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good" provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point). Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire. I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all. Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW, another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did. Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's. This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore." The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed a ground to operate properly. The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps. So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire anyway. At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been historically. I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 14:52:25 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote: On Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:15:51 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 11:01:55 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote: the 2 wires ungrounded frequently are k&t...... BEST TO REPLACE ALL k&t for lots of excellent reasons. But nothing in this tread points even REMOTELY to K&T wiring. It was all "ungrounded romex" Copy and paste of first post... This question was posted in another forum by someone that I know and I thought that I would try posting it here to get some feedback on his behalf: He wrote, "In a house that has ungrounded, 2 prong outlets, with wiring in good condition, is it acceptable (and allowed by current electrical code) to run a separate ground wire from the outlets back to the ground at the panel, in order to be able to replace the 2 prong outlets with 3 prong outlets? Existing wiring is in very good shape." Thanks NOTE: around here the most common ungrounded outletsare because of K&T The possibility of the boxes being grounded and 2 prong receptacles installed was also raised That rules out K&T |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
wrote in message
wrote: *Go back to your code book Nate and read the sections that I posted. 250.52(A)(1) says Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system. I assume that's because once you start moving further and further away from to POE the more likely bad things are to happen as in unbridged plastic sections of pipe used as repairs to copper pipe. Makes sense to me! Thanks for the clarification. I suspect that eventually they'll even change that requirement as more and more plastic pipe is used inside and outside of the house. Maybe it's a bias of years of looking at "spaghetti code" programming with "go tos" and no "come froms" that makes me allergic to wires not going to a central location. (-: -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:26:22 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote: "John G" wrote in message On Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:00:19 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote in message wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50: The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system IF and only if 1) The water meter is jumpered 2) the water heater is jumpered 3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is jumpered 4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add). I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles (this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a load on the second outlet of the receptable in question. It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good" provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point). Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire. I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all. Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW, another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did. Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's. This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore." The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed a ground to operate properly. The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps. So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire anyway. At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been historically. I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: I'm waiting to hear this one!! I'll bet it was something so simple we'll all say "duh" and whack out foreheads when we hear it. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered.. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50: The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system IF and only if 1) The water meter is jumpered 2) the water heater is jumpered 3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is jumpered 4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add). I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles (this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a load on the second outlet of the receptable in question. It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good" provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point). Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire.. I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all. Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW, another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did. Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's. This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore.." The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed a ground to operate properly. The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps. So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire anyway. At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been historically. I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: *I don't have a simple answer for this. Things that I have found when troubleshooting that particular problem a Loose connection on the circuit breaker. Loose neutral connection on the neutral terminal bar in the circuit breaker panel. A bad circuit breaker. Loose connections on one or more electrical outlets on the circuit. A loose splice under a wire connector (This is common with DIYers who don't twist wires together before twisting the connector on). Loose connection on the main circuit breaker or the main feed lugs. A corroded neutral wire that had a few strands broken as a result of long term water damage. (Water getting into the SE cable and traveling down into the meter socket and eventually the main panel). Loose connections in the meter socket. Loose connections at the weatherhead. Loose connections at the power company transformer. A damaged overhead service wire that has been rubbing against the house or trees whenever the wind blows. A damaged underground sevice feeder between the meter and transformer. This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable compnay come out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights, but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters. A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7 On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when I compared the before and after readings. Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that there is a problem with the neutral conductor. I should add that I was quite familar with the condo complex above as I have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I have found many problems that go back to the original installer. One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar. I installed a separate ground bar and attached the bare wire to that as well as the grounding conductor for the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now working properly. John Grabowski http://www.MrElectrician.TV |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: -- Bobby G. transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed. that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood transormer |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
On Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:05:27 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: -- Bobby G. transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed. that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood transormer My guess too... can be verified easily if you have a 240VAC receptacle anywhere to probe (in garage for welder, or laundry room for clothes dryer) one leg will still be hot but the other will be dead if he is correct. Or just take cover off breaker panel and measure two breakers adjacent to each other, they should be on opposite legs. nate |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"John G" wrote in message
I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: Loose connections at the power company transformer. Bingo. When we compared what circuits had failed it was clear they were all on one phase. A neighbor who's on the "critical service" program called them when his CPAP (breathing device for sleep apnea) failed and they sent out a truck ASAP. See, I told you that you had good troubleshooting skills. (-: This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable company come out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights, but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters. They call them "backstabs" because IMHO, that's exactly what they'll do to you. I became a hero to my wife (when we were still dating many moons ago) by fixing a garbage disposal that was about to be replaced after her dad, her handyman friend and even an electrician could not diagnose the problem. A faulty back stab on the control switch (which was on an outside wall where it got cold enough for thermal contraction to make it loose) turned out to be the culprit. The clue was it happened more in the winter than in the summer. The switch's backstab clips still gripped the wire - a little - but they were very easily pulled out of the holes, which doesn't happen in a good (if there is such a thing) backstab connection - at least not when they are new. Just moving the wires out of the backstab holes and under the screw fixed it. I did spend a lot of time upside under the sink before deciding the problem lay elsewhere. (-: A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7 On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when I compared the before and after readings. I recall seriously considering this tool before when I had a near fire from a space heater plug that had become partially pulled out of the outlet. I recall that it didn't detect arc faults and so I passed. Is that correct? I seem to recall not many testers can detect potential arc fault situations until they actually start arcing, but my memory isn't what it used to be. It would be very useful, it sounds, in detecting old wires that have lost some of their current carrying capability over time. I was pretty sure I had that problem with old, cloth covered wiring that had always had an oxide skin whenever I stripped it, but instead of trying to test them, I just ran new outlets and took all the loads over 5A off the old outlets. Doesn't mean someone won't plug in a space heater in one of those old circuits some day so it might be worth almost $300 to know in advance if that's going to be a threat. As I recall, a load like that might not trip the breaker but could cause old wire with reduced capacity to start a fire in the walls. Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that there is a problem with the neutral conductor. This weekend I went to reach for my auto-ranging Wavetek A20 tong meter and discovered the alkaline button batteries had leaked so much they destroyed the damn thing. We can put a man on the moon, but are still plagued by leaky alkaline technology. I the future I will make sure I use either silver oxide or lithium button batteries if they are available in the size I need. Really cheesed me off - it was a great meter with tongs just the right size to fit into my circuit breaker panel. It was invaluable in redistributing the loads in the panel and helped uncover a 20A kitchen breaker that was happily allowing 23A to pass without tripping. Gonna try a Harbor Freight cheapy (God help me!) just because I rarely use it now. What really peeves me is that the batteries that leaked (two LR-43's) were NOT cheap cells - they were Maxell's. I should add that I was quite familiar with the condo complex above as I have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I have found many problems that go back to the original installer. I don't doubt that. The house my then future wife lived in had plenty of "cheapest you can find builder specials" in it from the outlets to the appliances. Guaranteed to last just long enough for the builder to pull up stakes and move on. One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar. I installed a separate ground bar and attached the bare wire to that as well as the grounding conductor for the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now working properly. Well, I was right about you having not just good but excellent problem solving skills. Before I learned to do my own work, I would have X-10 related problems that needed a licensed electrician. It became obvious to me that some electricians can run new circuits and install A/Cs, furnaces, etc. but really didn't have good troubleshooting skills. My neighbor's son (who I first met when he was six years old and who used to wash my car and mow my lawn to earn spending money) started as a cable puller for the local CATV company. His boss soon realized he had much more potential than that and sent him to school to become an electrician on his own dime, an investment that's paid back handsomely. When people say that today's kids are no damn good I just smile and don't even bother telling them that I know better. His father ran out on the family when he was an infant but he never used that as an excuse for bad behavior like his sisters did. Instead he took his father's place and was the man of the house by the time he was twelve, doing whatever he could to bring money in and to help his mom around the house. Very interesting thread, John. I'll have questions about that Amprobe. If it's helpful to you, it HAS to be useful to a DIY guy like me. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
OK. I give up. Where's the beef?
(-: -- Bobby G. wrote in message ... On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 06:36:59 -0700 (PDT), John G wrote: In that case the ground wire did NOT go back to the panel, but to a clamp on a cold water pipe. Until the 70s that was legal. But stupid. And that's why they outlawed the practice. The wire went off to parts unknown (in my case) and some small amount of current leakage apparently caused galvanic corrosion to occur where it lamped to the waterpipe. It caused a pinhole leaked to develop. All tucked away behind a stapled ceiling and hard to find without making a mess. In my mind, those are two good reasons why they changed the code and why such connections should be removed and done according to modern rules whenever they are discovered even if they are still grandfathered. As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. *Actually the 2014 code does still permit the connection to the waterpipe. Article 250.130(C)(1) states that is is permitted "At any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50". The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system. The water meter and water heater bonding jumpers would have to be in place and the clamp would need to be approved for the type of metal piping. I really don't want to dive into this can of worms again so I'll just note all the potential failure points of using a clamping method from the code fragment you cited and I'll bet many more live in 250.50: The waterpipe is part of the grounding electrode system IF and only if 1) The water meter is jumpered 2) the water heater is jumpered 3) any section of the pipe that's been replaced by pex or plastic is jumpered 4) the right kind of clamp is used that won't cause galvanic corrosion I would add that the wire from the outlet box is labeled as to where it's going off to. When I checked the outlet and it failed, opening the box was no help. When I tried to trace the cable back to the panel with a fox and hound I couldn't tell where the ground wire was going because it was stapled high inside the joist (badly stapled, I might add). I removed one stapled ceiling tile (what a mess that was - so much so it helped lead to taking the whole damn ceiling down) and saw the wire going off at 90 degrees from the main cable. Tracing that proved to be impossible with the fox and hound so that aided in the decision to pull more tiles (this was a critical outlet for power tools in the workshop). The readings on the tester were flakey. Sometimes it would be grounded, other times the test lamp would flicker or extinguish completely, especially if there was a load on the second outlet of the receptable in question. It's just my opinion, obviously, but a wire that's used primarily as a life-saving measure going off to parts unknown should have a "good" provenance. It was obviously NOT done by an electrician because of how poorly the wiring was connected - it was nicked and barely under the screw and not stapled near the box. Another clue was that it was 10 feet FROM the damn panel and done when the ceiling wasn't in place so a real sparky would have just run a new wire and breaker (and they did for the window air conditioner outlet that was clearly added on at some point). Tote all the potential failure points up and it's clear using a pipe as a ground has lots of potential risk - at least compared to pulling new wire. I understand why it was grandfathered: I am sure the NEC weenies feel that any form of grounding is better than no grounding at all. Many of the outlets in the house were three-pronged but NOT grounded, FWIW, another sign of a rank amateur. Still with the basement open it would have been simple to do it right and after pulling the ceiling that's what I did. Replaced all the old outlets that I found that had three prongs but no actuall ground connection with new two pronged ones and ran all new circuits to areas that were critical - along with GFCI's. This was 1940's cloth covered wiring and I am sure oxidation of the conductor along has slightly degraded its ampacity. That is what I think happened in your case. The disimilar metals of the ground clamp (Brass) attached to a steel pipe acted as a battery. FWIW, it was a plated steel clamp on a copper pipe - same thing really. Just like a water heater. The clamp should not have been buried in a finished ceiling. The ground wire should have been run over to the water meter location where it would have been accessible and could have been clamped to the water pipe or the grounding electrode conductor. I think you're 100% correct about how that happened. Obviously none of this work was ever inspected - properly at least - and the only good thing about all this jack-legging was I got to knock a few thousand off my offer after doing a walkthrough of the house with my outlet tester. I recall the comment "We had a lot of appliances that had three prongs so my son replaced the old two prong outlets so we didn't have to use those adapters anymore." The sounded proud that he could do it! I really don't think they understood the ramifications of using 3 prong outlets on ungrounded circuits. Someone did, eventually, which is why the green wire to the basement outlet eventually appeared. I believe he had installed new shop lights that needed a ground to operate properly. The wiring in this house ran up to the attic and then down again like octopus tentacles inside hard plaster walls so running a ground wire along the original cables (or pulling new wire) just wouldn't be feasible. And that's why I can understand the NEC rules about waterpipe clamps. So I ran new 12/2 w/ground and GFCI's to the window AC's, the outside of the house, the kitchen and the office and used dual skinny breakers to wire them to the panel. For the most part, only very light loads are now running off the old wiring. Much of it is CFL lighting, further reducing the risk of overloading the old wires and in most cases, not needing a ground wire anyway. At first I was concerned that I had too many dual breakers, but the electric consumption has dropped slightly each year as I retired plasma TV's for LED TVs, 30 year old refrigerators for new high eff. ones, CFLs for tungsten lighting, etc. So it's clear that even though I have more circuits than before, the total load on the panel is actually lower than it's been historically. I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: *I don't have a simple answer for this. Things that I have found when troubleshooting that particular problem a Loose connection on the circuit breaker. Loose neutral connection on the neutral terminal bar in the circuit breaker panel. A bad circuit breaker. Loose connections on one or more electrical outlets on the circuit. A loose splice under a wire connector (This is common with DIYers who don't twist wires together before twisting the connector on). Loose connection on the main circuit breaker or the main feed lugs. A corroded neutral wire that had a few strands broken as a result of long term water damage. (Water getting into the SE cable and traveling down into the meter socket and eventually the main panel). Loose connections in the meter socket. Loose connections at the weatherhead. Loose connections at the power company transformer. A damaged overhead service wire that has been rubbing against the house or trees whenever the wind blows. A damaged underground sevice feeder between the meter and transformer. This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable compnay come out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights, but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters. A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...20&linkId=NH7Y 2DQQOIYSDVF7 On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when I compared the before and after readings. Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that there is a problem with the neutral conductor. I should add that I was quite familar with the condo complex above as I have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I have found many problems that go back to the original installer. One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar. I installed a separate ground bar and attached the bare wire to that as well as the grounding conductor for the one circuit. The woman's furnace is now working properly. John Grabowski http://www.MrElectrician.TV |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"bob haller" wrote in message
... transformer failure where only oner side of the power failed. We have another winner but I'm afraid JG clocked in first with the answer so he gets the valuable prize of one "Attaboy, new in box." (-; that happended here and left me wondering for a couple hours. when I finally figured it out the power company replaced the neighborhood transormer I sure was stumped but my neighbor's son nailed it as soon as I said that only one of my UPSs starting beeping at 3AM. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"N8N" wrote in message news:f981fcb7-5899-
My guess too... can be verified easily if you have a 240VAC receptacle anywhere to probe (in garage for welder, or laundry room for clothes dryer) one leg will still be hot but the other will be dead if he is correct. Or just take cover off breaker panel and measure two breakers adjacent to each other, they should be on opposite legs. A third runner up. I would have done as you suggested except by the next day it was mysteriously fixed. It really threw me because in all three houses affected, it cured itself. That's pretty rare to lose some outlets in the middle of the night and have them magically come back to life the next day. I am wondering if I could have detected it with my HomeVision X-10 controller and XTB coupler/repeater just from the PC interface. The coupler/repeater should behave erratically if it's not getting power from both phases, but I am not sure. I suppose I should send an email to Jeff Volp who designed it to find out whether it would detect such a condition or only if the phase providing power to the unit fails. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
wrote in message
stuff snipped As for the OP, what was legal in the 70's is moot. Except the upgrade was likely done either during or before the seventies. - so not ENTIRELY a moot point. It was "standard practice" and "approved" when it was done. I was referring to the guy (OP - original poster TomR) who started the thread asking about how to turn a two pronged outlet into a grounded one. I think he did exactly the right thing - had a new cable with ground run. I agree, in the 70's you were not likely to run into the problems you might today tying into a clamp-on-pipe ground connection. Not to say it should not be redone today. I ran along every inch of the water pipe and removed and rewired the surprising number of grounding clamps that were sitting on the pipes. CATV, phone, upgrading outlets, etc. after I tore the entire ceiling down. Virtually every clamp connector showed some sort of corrosion or physical damage to the (very old) copper pipe. -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
"Pico Rico" wrote in message news:m1a6j4
stuff snipped GFCIs or new NM would certainly be the preferred way to do things, and I'd rate those solutions as two or three times as good as a new ground wire, especially if it didn't at least run along the old wire so that it was obvious it was related to that old, ungrounded cable. Well, that's a good explanation. My initial thinking is that it would be placed along the entire run back to the panel. But, that is how **I** would do it. I'd at least try to do it that way, too, especially since the work was done before the ceiling (as Clare noted) improperly concealed it. This was an amateur who was obviously afraid to go into the circuit panel and attach the ground wire to a real ground. Maybe I should be thankful for that, overall. (-: -- Bobby G. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
I'll save it for another thread but my neighbor's electrician son solved a very interesting puzzle in which some of the lights in his mom's house went off for several hours early in the AM and then came back on by themselves without resetting any breakers or GFCI's. I couldn't diagnose it, and neither could he until I told him that a single UPS's started chirping at 3AM, which I thought was low voltage but seemed to be battery failure., so I got up and shut it off. No other UPSs beeped so I assumed it was a local event until my neighbor told me about her basement tenant's lights going out, too. When I restored power to the UPS and turned it back on the next day, everything was fine and the battery tested out as good - I was about to replace it just in case but it was less than a year old. You've got good analytical skills, John. What do you think it was? (-: Loose connections at the power company transformer. Bingo. When we compared what circuits had failed it was clear they were all on one phase. A neighbor who's on the "critical service" program called them when his CPAP (breathing device for sleep apnea) failed and they sent out a truck ASAP. See, I told you that you had good troubleshooting skills. (-: This past week I got a call from a couple living in a condo who have been having problems with their cable box going out briefly and then coming back on. I was there a year ago for the same problem on one of their cable boxes. This time it was all three boxes. They had the cable company come out so many times to rewire and replace that they will no longer come out for this problem which they believe is with the electrical wiring. Last year I pigtailed and replaced 2 outlets and never heard back from the couple until this week. Last year they reported that nothing else was occurring such as flickering lights. This year it was the same, no flickering lights, but they also admitted that they did not use the lights on these circuits too often. I found the three cable boxes to be on two circuits. I checked the voltage at the main panel and it was consistent on both phases and to ground as well as to neutral. I replaced the two breakers and opened up every switch and outlet on these circuits. The outlets were a builders cheapo model with no screw terminals, only the back stab holes. Every outlet that I removed from the wall had the wires come out of the back stab with little effort. On one particular wall receptacle with six wires attached, one of the neutral wires had only about a quarter inch of copper showing which made me think that it was not making good contact when it was inserted into the back of the original outlet. I pigtailed and replaced every outlet on the two circuits. I tightened every connection in the main panel. The only thing that I could not do was check the main breaker because it was in a 6 gang meter stack that the power company had locked up. I told the couple to call me if the problem persisted and I would get the power company to unlock the meters. They call them "backstabs" because IMHO, that's exactly what they'll do to you. I became a hero to my wife (when we were still dating many moons ago) by fixing a garbage disposal that was about to be replaced after her dad, her handyman friend and even an electrician could not diagnose the problem. A faulty back stab on the control switch (which was on an outside wall where it got cold enough for thermal contraction to make it loose) turned out to be the culprit. The clue was it happened more in the winter than in the summer. The switch's backstab clips still gripped the wire - a little - but they were very easily pulled out of the holes, which doesn't happen in a good (if there is such a thing) backstab connection - at least not when they are new. Just moving the wires out of the backstab holes and under the screw fixed it. I did spend a lot of time upside under the sink before deciding the problem lay elsewhere. (-: A tool that I have found to be very helpful is the Amprobe Inspector: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...7Y2DQQOIYSDVF7 On the above job it told me that I was on the right track by pigtailing when I compared the before and after readings. I recall seriously considering this tool before when I had a near fire from a space heater plug that had become partially pulled out of the outlet. I recall that it didn't detect arc faults and so I passed. Is that correct? I seem to recall not many testers can detect potential arc fault situations. *The Amprobe Inspector does not have a specific display that says that there is an arc fault condition. However, after using it for a while and taking before and after readings I realized that it does identify the conditions that could lead to an arc fault. This is not an idiot proof tool. I had trouble understanding the readings initially until I did a lot of testing and noticed the differences from outlet to outlet and circuit to circuit. For a DIYer I would suggest that they spend the time and money to redo all of the connections on their outlets and switches instead of buying an expensive tool. Arcing is a result of loose connections and the load passing through them. Thank you for the praise Bobby, John G until they actually start arcing, but my memory isn't what it used to be. It would be very useful, it sounds, in detecting old wires that have lost some of their current carrying capability over time. I was pretty sure I had that problem with old, cloth covered wiring that had always had an oxide skin whenever I stripped it, but instead of trying to test them, I just ran new outlets and took all the loads over 5A off the old outlets. Doesn't mean someone won't plug in a space heater in one of those old circuits some day so it might be worth almost $300 to know in advance if that's going to be a threat. As I recall, a load like that might not trip the breaker but could cause old wire with reduced capacity to start a fire in the walls. Another tool to use is an ammeter to measure the current on the grounding electrode conductor at the water pipe and the ground rod. If there is current flowing on the grounding electrode conductor, that tells you that there is a problem with the neutral conductor. This weekend I went to reach for my auto-ranging Wavetek A20 tong meter and discovered the alkaline button batteries had leaked so much they destroyed the damn thing. We can put a man on the moon, but are still plagued by leaky alkaline technology. I the future I will make sure I use either silver oxide or lithium button batteries if they are available in the size I need. Really cheesed me off - it was a great meter with tongs just the right size to fit into my circuit breaker panel. It was invaluable in redistributing the loads in the panel and helped uncover a 20A kitchen breaker that was happily allowing 23A to pass without tripping. Gonna try a Harbor Freight cheapy (God help me!) just because I rarely use it now. What really peeves me is that the batteries that leaked (two LR-43's) were NOT cheap cells - they were Maxell's. I should add that I was quite familiar with the condo complex above as I have been doing work for the association for several years. In that time I have found many problems that go back to the original installer. I don't doubt that. The house my then future wife lived in had plenty of "cheapest you can find builder specials" in it from the outlets to the appliances. Guaranteed to last just long enough for the builder to pull up stakes and move on. One that stands out is a woman who had a new furnace installed in her condo. She kept having problems with it and the service technician and her own electrician told her it was an electrical service problem which was the responsibility of the association. I measured 30 volts between ground and neutral at her main panel. I go outside to have a look at the meter stack and noticed a house panel for the outside lights. I took the cover off of the house panel and saw a black wire on one main lug, a white wire on the other main lug and a bare wire on the neutral bar. The house panel only had one circuit breaker in it. I removed the stack cover and saw the black and white on the main breaker and the bare on the ground terminal. I took the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. In the house panel I took the white wire off the main lug and put it on the neutral bar. |
Separate ground wire to panel to ground outlets?
arrived for thanksgiving dinner at my brother in laws He had installed ome plywood flooring in the attic and accidently put a screw thru the wiring, tripping the breaker that lit up most of the key areas:( His wife was very upset:( I arrived as my father in law had just completed splicing the bad romex, only to find tht didnt get the lights back on..... So I started asking questions. Found it was a X 10 setup, the short must of taken out the wall controller..
Well being thanksgiving no stores were open. The family had NO idea what X 10 did. but reported a light would come on at 4am occasionally so brother in law replaced to switch. he till had the one he replaced with a regular switch, so I swapped out the bad one , reprogrammed it, and was the hero of the day. We had light to eat by:) |
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