I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I read,
after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should install an
insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded screw
protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after drilling
the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into the holes?

I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the floor.
There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but only four
are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the two adjacent
to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

Rebel1 wrote:
I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I read,
after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should install an
insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded screw
protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after
drilling the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into
the holes?
I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the
floor. There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but
only four are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the
two adjacent to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

You want to use TapCon screws , and the appropriately sized masonry drill
bit . Available at any half-way decent hardware store .

--
Snag

On 9/18/2014 10:26 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I read,
after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should install an
insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded screw
protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after
drilling the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into
the holes?
I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the
floor. There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but
only four are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the
two adjacent to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

You want to use TapCon screws , and the appropriately sized masonry drill
bit . Available at any half-way decent hardware store .


That is the brand I have (bit and screws). But the question is do I need
an insert to fasten the flange to concrete?

Rebel1 wrote:
On 9/18/2014 10:26 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I
read, after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should
install an insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded
screw protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after
drilling the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into
the holes?
I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the
floor. There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but
only four are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the
two adjacent to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

You want to use TapCon screws , and the appropriately sized masonry
drill bit . Available at any half-way decent hardware store .


That is the brand I have (bit and screws). But the question is do I
need an insert to fasten the flange to concrete?

No , the TapCon is designed to TAP it's own threads into CONcrete . You'll
need a pretty decent screw gun or impact driver .

--
Snag

On 9/18/2014 11:02 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
On 9/18/2014 10:26 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
Rebel1 wrote:
I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I
read, after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should
install an insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded
screw protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after
drilling the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into
the holes?
I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the
floor. There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but
only four are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the
two adjacent to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

You want to use TapCon screws , and the appropriately sized masonry
drill bit . Available at any half-way decent hardware store .


That is the brand I have (bit and screws). But the question is do I
need an insert to fasten the flange to concrete?

No , the TapCon is designed to TAP it's own threads into CONcrete . You'll
need a pretty decent screw gun or impact driver .

Thanks. That was the answer I was hoping for.

Rebel:

Tapcon screws are unique in that they can be driven into a pilot hole drilled into concrete without using a plastic or lead anchor to hold the screw.

But, for your purpose, I wouldn't use them. They're ordinary steel, and in that application they'd rust out in a few years so that you'd never be able to get that toilet flange off if you needed to.

If I were me, I would:
a. drill pilot holes for the toilet flange to a depth of about 1 1/2 inches
b. enlarge those holes with a 5/16 inch masonry bit and vaccuum the dust out of the holes by inserting a drinking straw in the suction hose of a vaccuum cleaner.
c. insert 5/16 inch diameter by 1 1/2 inch long lead anchors into the holes so that the tops of the lead anchors stick out a little bit from the concrete floor.
d. Use a counter sinking drill bit to cut the tops off the lead anchors so they don't protrude above the concrete. Counter sinking bits are typically used on wood so that the heads of flat head screws are flush with the surrounding wood. But, lead is such a soft metal that the counter sinking bit won't have any problem countersinking lead.
e. Screw your floor flange down with STAINLESS STEEL flat head size # 10 or # 12 sheet metal screws. (See PS below.)

You should be able to find 5/16 inch diameter by 1 1/2 inch long lead anchors at any hardware store or home center. Ditto for the stainless steel screws and ditto for the counter sinking bit.

If you're not following this game plan, Google "5/16 inch lead anchors" and "countersinking bit" to see what they look like, and it should all become apparant to you.

This way, neither the lead nor the stainless steel are going to corrode so you don't have to worry about facing real difficulties if you ever crack that floor flange and need to replace it. With badly rusted ordinary steel screws holding it down, you might have a real fight on your hands getting those old steel screws out. With stainless steel screws in lead anchors, you'll not have any problems replacing the floor flange in future if necessary.

PS:
The difference between a wood screw and a sheet metal screw is that the wood screw will only be threaded over 2/3 of it's overall length. Sheet metal screws are threaded right up to the head of the screw. Most handymen use sheet metal screws for just about everything and rarely, if ever, use wood screws. The name "sheet metal screw" gives a mental image of being small, but sheet metal screws come in all the same sizes that wood screws do.

On 9/18/2014 11:02 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
You want to use TapCon screws , and the appropriately sized masonry
drill bit . Available at any half-way decent hardware store .


That is the brand I have (bit and screws). But the question is do I
need an insert to fasten the flange to concrete?

No , the TapCon is designed to TAP it's own threads into CONcrete . You'll
need a pretty decent screw gun or impact driver .

I've also found (DAMHIKT) that a hammer drill
works much better on masonary. Also good to use
a bent out paper clip as a depth gage, to be
totally sure the hole is deep enough for the
tapocon you're using.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/18/2014 11:57 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
On 9/18/2014 11:02 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
That is the brand I have (bit and screws). But the question is do I
need an insert to fasten the flange to concrete?

No , the TapCon is designed to TAP it's own threads into CONcrete .
You'll
need a pretty decent screw gun or impact driver .

Thanks. That was the answer I was hoping for.

I've used tapcons once, to anchor down an
aluminum threshhold for a loading dock of a
store. I found an impact driver sure helped
to turn the screws. Borrowed a Black and
Decker one from a friend, and got myself a HF
impact driver after that. Oh, helps to wax the
threads heavily before turning them in. Tube of
lip balm from the dollar tree is much cheaper
than the $5.69 bit of bees wax from True Value.


..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

I think the point that people seem to be missing here is that Tapcon screws are ordinary (perhaps hardened) stell. They rust. They have a coating on them that would help prevent rusting, but eventually, they'll rust.

The OP can use Tapcon screws to hold the toilet floor flange down, but if he ever needs to replace that floor flange, and isn't able to get those old rusted screws out of the concrete, he'll have to grind them off flush with the concrete, and drill new holes in his floor flange to hold it down.

I say it's smarter to use lead anchors and stainless steel screws to avoid that situation in the first place.

On 9/18/2014 10:11 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
I've had no experience with drilling into concrete. From what I read,
after drilling the pilot hole with a hammer drill, I should install an
insert. But this seems to be only if you want a threaded screw
protruding from the wall to hang things on, like a TV mount.

I'm going to anchor a toilet closet flange to a concrete slab, so I
don't need or want anything protruding from the floor. So after drilling
the pilot holes, do I just insert the screws/anchors into the holes?

I'll be using the Push Tite closet flange shown he
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/d...closet-flanges

I originally thought the snugness of the fit would give a sturdy
installation, but the instructions say to always fasten it to the floor.
There are eight holes for accepting flat-headed screws, but only four
are needed (the two at the ends of the bolts slots, or the two adjacent
to the bolt notches).

Thanks,

R1

As was stated by Nestork, I also agree you should use lead anchors. The
anchors will remain and you can use never seize on the bolts. When/if
the time comes to replace the toilet again, you can unbolt much easier.
Tapcons WILL rust and WILL break when the time comes to replace. Also,
Tapcons can break while screwing them in unless you use a lubricant. If
they break while screwing in, good luck getting it out. It will ruin
your entire day.

On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:26:42 +0200, nestork
wrote:


I think the point that people seem to be missing here is that Tapcon
screws are ordinary (perhaps hardened) stell. They rust. They have a
coating on them that would help prevent rusting, but eventually, they'll
rust.

The OP can use Tapcon screws to hold the toilet floor flange down, but
if he ever needs to replace that floor flange, and isn't able to get
those old rusted screws out of the concrete, he'll have to grind them
off flush with the concrete, and drill new holes in his floor flange to
hold it down.

I say it's smarter to use lead anchors and stainless steel screws to
avoid that situation in the first place.

_Screws that Practically Drive Themselves_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWFf4IOuAnI&list=PL1szv0FP8dUthzyAv88t3sQz hxFLWMXRF

GRK PHEINOX Stainless Steel Screws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJcm84TQoww&index=21&list=UUHWX8yVgskKy83r xBzry3-Q

GRK Caliburn Concrete Screws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZPvxtHpSA&list=UUHWX8yVgskKy83rxBzry3-Q

GRK Home Page:

http://www.grkfasteners.com/index.php/en/

(Made in Canada)

On 9/20/2014 12:24 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 19 Sep 2014 16:26:42 +0200, nestork
wrote:


I think the point that people seem to be missing here is that Tapcon
screws are ordinary (perhaps hardened) stell. They rust. They have a
coating on them that would help prevent rusting, but eventually, they'll
rust.

The OP can use Tapcon screws to hold the toilet floor flange down, but
if he ever needs to replace that floor flange, and isn't able to get
those old rusted screws out of the concrete, he'll have to grind them
off flush with the concrete, and drill new holes in his floor flange to
hold it down.

I say it's smarter to use lead anchors and stainless steel screws to
avoid that situation in the first place.

_Screws that Practically Drive Themselves_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWFf4IOuAnI&list=PL1szv0FP8dUthzyAv88t3sQz hxFLWMXRF

GRK PHEINOX Stainless Steel Screws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJcm84TQoww&index=21&list=UUHWX8yVgskKy83r xBzry3-Q

GRK Caliburn Concrete Screws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnZPvxtHpSA&list=UUHWX8yVgskKy83rxBzry3-Q

GRK Home Page:

http://www.grkfasteners.com/index.php/en/

(Made in Canada)

It's amazing how much improvements can still be made to an ordinary
ho-hum item like a screw that we take for granted. Thanks for the links.

Now, I wish I didn't have to rent a hammer drill to make the pilot
holes. They rent for $20 for four hours, or $24 for 24 hours. I need
four holes for the closet flange, two to hang an extension ladder off a
garage wall, and 2-6 more for new garage shelving. I'll have to plan
everything carefully so I get everything done with a single rental.

R1

On 9/20/2014 5:49 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
It's amazing how much improvements can still be made to an ordinary
ho-hum item like a screw that we take for granted. Thanks for the links.

Now, I wish I didn't have to rent a hammer drill to make the pilot
holes. They rent for $20 for four hours, or $24 for 24 hours. I need
four holes for the closet flange, two to hang an extension ladder off a
garage wall, and 2-6 more for new garage shelving. I'll have to plan
everything carefully so I get everything done with a single rental.


http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-v...ill-68170.html

Buy one for near that.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 9/19/2014 10:26 AM, nestork wrote:

I think the point that people seem to be missing here is that Tapcon
screws are ordinary (perhaps hardened) stell. They rust. They have a
coating on them that would help prevent rusting, but eventually, they'll
rust.

The OP can use Tapcon screws to hold the toilet floor flange down, but
if he ever needs to replace that floor flange, and isn't able to get
those old rusted screws out of the concrete, he'll have to grind them
off flush with the concrete, and drill new holes in his floor flange to
hold it down.

I say it's smarter to use lead anchors and stainless steel screws to
avoid that situation in the first place.

Excellent points I hadn't considered. For rust to form, there must be a
combination of moisture and oxygen. I'm not sure both those conditions
exist much below the screw head, but even if found only just below the
screw head, it could snap the head if trying to remove the screw. Deeper
down, I'm not sure if rust would form to resist removal torque.

If the wax ring covers the screw heads, the problem would be less likely
as both moisture and oxygen would be missing at the heads.

Like with concrete screws, I never worked with lead anchors before.
Either way, it will be a learning experience for me.

Thanks,

R1

On 9/18/2014 11:58 PM, nestork wrote:
Rebel:

Tapcon screws are unique in that they can be driven into a pilot hole
drilled into concrete without using a plastic or lead anchor to hold the
screw.

But, for your purpose, I wouldn't use them. They're ordinary steel, and
in that application they'd rust out in a few years so that you'd never
be able to get that toilet flange off if you needed to.

If I were me, I would:
a. drill pilot holes for the toilet flange to a depth of about 1 1/2
inches
b. enlarge those holes with a 5/16 inch masonry bit and vaccuum the dust
out of the holes by inserting a drinking straw in the suction hose of a
vaccuum cleaner.
c. insert 5/16 inch diameter by 1 1/2 inch long lead anchors into the
holes so that the tops of the lead anchors stick out a little bit from
the concrete floor.
d. Use a counter sinking drill bit to cut the tops off the lead anchors
so they don't protrude above the concrete. Counter sinking bits are
typically used on wood so that the heads of flat head screws are flush
with the surrounding wood. But, lead is such a soft metal that the
counter sinking bit won't have any problem countersinking lead.
e. Screw your floor flange down with STAINLESS STEEL flat head size # 10
or # 12 sheet metal screws. (See PS below.)

You should be able to find 5/16 inch diameter by 1 1/2 inch long lead
anchors at any hardware store or home center. Ditto for the stainless
steel screws and ditto for the counter sinking bit.

If you're not following this game plan, Google "5/16 inch lead anchors"
and "countersinking bit" to see what they look like, and it should all
become apparant to you.

This way, neither the lead nor the stainless steel are going to corrode
so you don't have to worry about facing real difficulties if you ever
crack that floor flange and need to replace it. With badly rusted
ordinary steel screws holding it down, you might have a real fight on
your hands getting those old steel screws out. With stainless steel
screws in lead anchors, you'll not have any problems replacing the floor
flange in future if necessary.

PS:
The difference between a wood screw and a sheet metal screw is that the
wood screw will only be threaded over 2/3 of it's overall length. Sheet
metal screws are threaded right up to the head of the screw. Most
handymen use sheet metal screws for just about everything and rarely, if
ever, use wood screws. The name "sheet metal screw" gives a mental
image of being small, but sheet metal screws come in all the same sizes
that wood screws do.

Thanks for the highly detailed description of sizes and tips. This is
the way I will go.

R1

On 9/20/2014 5:56 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/20/2014 5:49 PM, Rebel1 wrote:
It's amazing how much improvements can still be made to an ordinary
ho-hum item like a screw that we take for granted. Thanks for the links.

Now, I wish I didn't have to rent a hammer drill to make the pilot
holes. They rent for $20 for four hours, or $24 for 24 hours. I need
four holes for the closet flange, two to hang an extension ladder off a
garage wall, and 2-6 more for new garage shelving. I'll have to plan
everything carefully so I get everything done with a single rental.


http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-v...ill-68170.html


Buy one for near that.

Great suggestion. I had no idea they were that inexpensive, and most of
the reviews are favorable.

There's a HF about 9 miles from new home; I've been there once to get
their freebies (with additional purchase of some 59-cent item). Buying
is definitely the way to go. Never can tell what kind of new garage
shelving I will want to add a few months from now, once I settled in my
new house.

Thanks,

R1

See if Harbour Freight sells a "Rotary Hammer".

There are two types of "hammer drills";

Percussion type hammer drills and Rotary Hammers

Percussion type hammer drills are OK for drilling into soft masonry like bricks and brick mortar, but aren't really meant for hard masonry materials like concrete and hard stone like granite.

A rotary hammer will drill into soft masonry AND hard masonry like concrete very much faster and easier than a percussion type hammer drill. But, good quality rotary hammers will use a different style of chuck than percussion type hammer drills. Percussion type hammer drills will use the same kind of chuck that an ordinary electric drill uses. Rotary hammers will use something called an "SDS" chuck. You need to buy special SDS drill bits to use in an SDS chuck.

What you might want to do instead of buying a percussion type hammer drill from Harbour Freight is to phone around to your local auction houses and see if they're auctioning off any tools. You'd be able to buy a used rotary hammer at an auction sale for about the same price as a new percussion type hammer drill at Harbour Freight, and any good quality rotary hammer will be vastly better for drilling into concrete than any percussion type hammer drill.

On 9/21/2014 8:58 AM, Rebel1 wrote:
On 9/20/2014 5:56 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Buy one for near that.

Great suggestion. I had no idea they were that inexpensive, and most of
the reviews are favorable.

There's a HF about 9 miles from new home; I've been there once to get
their freebies (with additional purchase of some 59-cent item). Buying
is definitely the way to go. Never can tell what kind of new garage
shelving I will want to add a few months from now, once I settled in my
new house.

Thanks,

R1

Y'welcome. Once in a while, I do have a
good idea.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..