I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed
while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and
fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?

Any better suggestions?

Perce

In ,
Percival P. Cassidy belched:
I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to
reseed while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then*
reseeding and fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas
work?
Any better suggestions?

Perce

what kind of grass?
the typical weed and feed is BS, you're better off using a seperate
pre-emergent and then buy the cheapeast fertilizer and add 1lb epson salt
and 1lb sugar.
Personally I have never had good luck with seeding except for fescue, I
prefer sod, but then I'm in the south
YMMV

On 04/10/14 09:40 pm, ChairMan wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to
reseed while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then*
reseeding and fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas
work?
Any better suggestions?

what kind of grass?

I overseeded two falls ago with 40% Kentucky bluegrass, 60% perennial
ryegrass, as recommended by local seed company. Still have some left.

the typical weed and feed is BS, you're better off using a seperate
pre-emergent and then buy the cheapeast fertilizer and add 1lb epson salt
and 1lb sugar.

The fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller I have is the store brand, so
even at regular price a lot cheaper than Scotts. And I got it on sale
and with a further discount for using the store-issued credit card.
About $25 for enough to cover 15,000 s.f.

Personally I have never had good luck with seeding except for fescue, I
prefer sod, but then I'm in the south
YMMV

What about digging up a few plugs of the existing lawn from
inconspicuous places and planting the damaged areas with those?

Perce

1lb epson salt and 1lb sugar.
What is the epsom salts and sugar for???

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 04/10/14 09:40 pm, ChairMan wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller
("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was
dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I
want to
reseed while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller,
*then*
reseeding and fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the
bare areas
work?
Any better suggestions?

what kind of grass?

I overseeded two falls ago with 40% Kentucky bluegrass,
60% perennial
ryegrass, as recommended by local seed company. Still have
some left.


So your seeding for cooler northern climate? As long as ya
keep it moist and can keep the birds from eating the seed,
you should be okay


the typical weed and feed is BS, you're better off using
a seperate
pre-emergent and then buy the cheapeast fertilizer and
add 1lb epson
salt and 1lb sugar.

The fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller I have is the
store brand, so
even at regular price a lot cheaper than Scotts. And I got
it on sale
and with a further discount for using the store-issued
credit card.
About $25 for enough to cover 15,000 s.f.

Well, at that price, what the hell.
But from what I've read, been told and experienced, the weed
and feed is useless.
Are you sure its Pre-emergent weedkiller? Typically pre
emergent doesn't kill weeds, it just keeps their seeds from
germinating and needs to be used 2-3 times a year.
A weed and feed usually needs to be applied when the grass
is damp for the weed killer to stick to the weeds and kill
them. If it's applied to a dry lawn the weed killer is
useless.


Personally I have never had good luck with seeding except
for
fescue, I prefer sod, but then I'm in the south
YMMV

What about digging up a few plugs of the existing lawn
from
inconspicuous places and planting the damaged areas with
those?

You could try it. Bluegrass and rye are both clumping
grasses, so it should work
Good luck

wrote:
1lb epson salt and 1lb sugar.
What is the epsom salts and sugar for???

epson is for nitrogen and sugar is for soil conditioner.
Some areas of the country ya probably don't need the sugar,
here in NTX with our gumbo/clay based soil it helps

On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed
while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and
fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?

Any better suggestions?

Perce

It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far
north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare
spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise
(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,
treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.
Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.

On 4/11/2014 1:03 AM, ChairMan wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 04/10/14 09:40 pm, ChairMan wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller
("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was
dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I
want to
reseed while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller,
*then*
reseeding and fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the
bare areas
work?
Any better suggestions?

what kind of grass?

I overseeded two falls ago with 40% Kentucky bluegrass,
60% perennial
ryegrass, as recommended by local seed company. Still have
some left.


So your seeding for cooler northern climate? As long as ya
keep it moist and can keep the birds from eating the seed,
you should be okay


the typical weed and feed is BS, you're better off using
a seperate
pre-emergent and then buy the cheapeast fertilizer and
add 1lb epson
salt and 1lb sugar.

The fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller I have is the
store brand, so
even at regular price a lot cheaper than Scotts. And I got
it on sale
and with a further discount for using the store-issued
credit card.
About $25 for enough to cover 15,000 s.f.

Well, at that price, what the hell.
But from what I've read, been told and experienced, the weed
and feed is useless.
Are you sure its Pre-emergent weedkiller? Typically pre
emergent doesn't kill weeds, it just keeps their seeds from
germinating and needs to be used 2-3 times a year.

The best defense to crab grass is proper care....mow high in hot, dry
weather, deep watering (1" per week if no rain). I bought pre-emergent
for the first time this year (Scotts, against my better judgement). I
bought the "Snap" stuff....just drop the bag of poison onto the rig and
start rolling )

A weed and feed usually needs to be applied when the grass
is damp for the weed killer to stick to the weeds and kill
them. If it's applied to a dry lawn the weed killer is
useless.

I use hose-end sprayer for broadleaf herbicides, once, and they do a
great job....killed off most of the dandelions and others last year. It
takes at least 2-3 years to take care of seed that is already in the
lawn, but applying b.h. once, along with proper care, eliminates almost
all b. weeds. Just spot treat after that. For tough weeds, like dand.
and plantain, I sometimes use a brush with Roundup to kill 'em for sure
without hitting the good grass.

I've used b.h. on southern and northern grass, and southern grass, like
St. Augustine, requires it's own special product. You need to use them
when weeds are actively growing and when the lawn is not stressed by
heat. I fed the lawn a week or two before using it to maximize the
"actively growing" part...it fun to see the weeds shrivelling up in a
day or two )


Personally I have never had good luck with seeding except
for
fescue, I prefer sod, but then I'm in the south
YMMV

What about digging up a few plugs of the existing lawn
from
inconspicuous places and planting the damaged areas with
those?

You could try it. Bluegrass and rye are both clumping
grasses, so it should work
Good luck


We are new to our present home and I've been concentrating on putting in
shrub and flower beds to eliminate the dang mowing....I ran across an
article that advised feeding grass FOUR TIMES A YEAR! Maybe for
southern grass that has to grow in sand, but it guarantees you will be
mowing a lot more...we feed ours mostly with a mulching mower, unless I
need to bag grass clippings to use as mulch. My neighbor has big maple
trees, so I rescued a lot of his leaves to use as mulch on my flower
beds. I have "repurposed" a lot of stuff in planting/caring....plant a
shrub, remove the largest rocks (we have a lot) and use the rock for
mulch around some beds (with landscape cloth, of course).

On 4/11/2014 1:03 AM, ChairMan wrote:
wrote:
1lb epson salt and 1lb sugar.
What is the epsom salts and sugar for???

epson is for nitrogen and sugar is for soil conditioner.
Some areas of the country ya probably don't need the sugar,
here in NTX with our gumbo/clay based soil it helps


Epsom salts is good for palm trees if they are puny and yellow. It is
magnesium sulfate, and allegedly helps plants take up N. Sugar? I have
never heard of using sugar for gardening.

http://www.garden.org/articles/artic...p?q=show&id=68

On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:59:41 AM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:
On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north.

It depends on what weeds he's specifically trying to prevent
from germinating. If it's crabgrass, which is what people are
generally using pre-emergent for and most concerned about, it's
not too late for much of the USA. It's been a cold Spring
so far here in the NYC area, crabgrass takes warmer temps to germinate,
but I'd get it down right away. There are also products like Dimension,
which is a pre-emergent, but also provides post emergent control, ie it
will kill early stage crabgrass too. No reason you can't put that down
now in much of the USA.

There are pre-emergents that are compatible with new seeding,
eg Tupersan, but it costs more than the typical pre-emergent and
is harder to find. Depends on how big the re-seeded areas are.
If they are small, just not-applying pre-emergent there is probably
easiest, cheapest. Use starter fertilizer instead.

As to the claim someone else made, that only the products that are
sold seperately for pre-emergent are effective, IDK what that is based
on. A lot of them have the same chemical, combined products can be just
as effective and certainly are easier to find.

On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:
On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed
while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and
fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?

Any better suggestions?

Perce

It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far
north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare
spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise
(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,
treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.
Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.

My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias
bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas
of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate
crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.

For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter
fertilizer which is redundant.

Pre-emergent only works before crabgrass sprouts. Multiple applications
are only necessary for weeds like Japanese stilt grass where seeds may
sprout all season long.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 8:33:46 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare

spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise

(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,

treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.

Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.



My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias

bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas

of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate

crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.



For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter

fertilizer which is redundant.



The typical, common, pre-emergents that you find in a garden center,
HD, Walmart, etc are not compatible with seeding. They will prevent
the grass seed from germinating too. He can either:

A - Use typical pre-emergent on lawn areas that are not being seeded and
and starter fertilizer in seeded areas, which is what he proposed

B - Use a pre-emergent like Tupersan that allows seeding.





Pre-emergent only works before crabgrass sprouts.

That is true with the vast majority of them. But some, eg Dimension,
are also effective against very young stage plants too. So, if you
think it may be too late for a regular one, Dimension would be a good
choice.



Multiple applications

are only necessary for weeds like Japanese stilt grass where seeds may

sprout all season long.

On 4/11/2014 8:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:59:41 AM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:
On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north.

It depends on what weeds he's specifically trying to prevent
from germinating. If it's crabgrass, which is what people are
generally using pre-emergent for and most concerned about, it's
not too late for much of the USA. It's been a cold Spring
so far here in the NYC area, crabgrass takes warmer temps to germinate,
but I'd get it down right away. There are also products like Dimension,
which is a pre-emergent, but also provides post emergent control, ie it
will kill early stage crabgrass too. No reason you can't put that down
now in much of the USA.

There are pre-emergents that are compatible with new seeding,
eg Tupersan, but it costs more than the typical pre-emergent and
is harder to find. Depends on how big the re-seeded areas are.
If they are small, just not-applying pre-emergent there is probably
easiest, cheapest. Use starter fertilizer instead.

As to the claim someone else made, that only the products that are
sold seperately for pre-emergent are effective, IDK what that is based
on. A lot of them have the same chemical, combined products can be just
as effective and certainly are easier to find.


I think the pre-emergents are more toxic to aquatic critters and more
persistent in soil. Broadleaf weeds are much easier to kill with
herbicides that are less toxic and break down more quickly....lots of
folks don't read labels and follow the "more is better" principle, which
is why our waters are so polluted.

On 4/11/2014 8:33 AM, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:
On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed
while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and
fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?

Any better suggestions?

Perce

It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far
north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare
spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise
(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,
treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.
Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.

My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias
bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas
of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate
crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.

I'm in northern Indiana, and it is too late here to be sure of best
application. Because the stuff is so toxic, I feel it is wiser to hold
off a year rather than spead the stuff around when it is too late to get
best effect on weeds.

For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter
fertilizer which is redundant.

I'd be sure to follow directions, as seeding must be delayed for most
p.e.h.'s. Reading labels helps!

Pre-emergent only works before crabgrass sprouts. Multiple applications
are only necessary for weeds like Japanese stilt grass where seeds may
sprout all season long.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 9:41:15 AM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:
On 4/11/2014 8:33 AM, Frank wrote:

On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare

spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise

(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,

treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.

Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.



My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias

bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas

of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate

crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.



I'm in northern Indiana, and it is too late here to be sure of best

application. Because the stuff is so toxic, I feel it is wiser to hold

off a year rather than spead the stuff around when it is too late to get

best effect on weeds.


Since you previously posted that you only used a pre-emergent
one time, how would you know that it's too late to apply now for
crabgrass control? There is a lot of conflicting data on when to
apply. At most, northern Indiana should be near the end of the
ideal time to apply, but not out of it.
Especially since it's been a cold Spring so far. If you put it
down too early, it can be losing it's effectiveness before
crabgrass even germinates. For that area I would think first
couple weeks in April is about right.







For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter

fertilizer which is redundant.



I'd be sure to follow directions, as seeding must be delayed for most

p.e.h.'s. Reading labels helps!



If it's delayed, it's pretty much delayed to Fall, unless you want
to try seeding in summer.

On 4/11/2014 10:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, April 11, 2014 9:41:15 AM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:
On 4/11/2014 8:33 AM, Frank wrote:

On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare

spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise

(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,

treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.

Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.



My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias

bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas

of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate

crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.



I'm in northern Indiana, and it is too late here to be sure of best

application. Because the stuff is so toxic, I feel it is wiser to hold

off a year rather than spead the stuff around when it is too late to get

best effect on weeds.


Since you previously posted that you only used a pre-emergent
one time, how would you know that it's too late to apply now for
crabgrass control? There is a lot of conflicting data on when to
apply. At most, northern Indiana should be near the end of the
ideal time to apply, but not out of it.
Especially since it's been a cold Spring so far. If you put it
down too early, it can be losing it's effectiveness before
crabgrass even germinates. For that area I would think first
couple weeks in April is about right.







For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter

fertilizer which is redundant.



I'd be sure to follow directions, as seeding must be delayed for most

p.e.h.'s. Reading labels helps!



If it's delayed, it's pretty much delayed to Fall, unless you want
to try seeding in summer.



Other plants and weeds have sprouted....we had a blizzard 'bout three
weeks ago, followed 2 or 3 days later by 50 degree daytime temp. It has
been warm/cold alternating for a while. I think that if other weeds are
coming up, the crabgrass is ready, too )

On 4/11/2014 9:27 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, April 11, 2014 8:33:46 AM UTC-4, Frank wrote:
On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:

On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far

north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare

spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise

(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,

treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.

Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.



My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias

bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas

of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate

crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.



For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter

fertilizer which is redundant.



The typical, common, pre-emergents that you find in a garden center,
HD, Walmart, etc are not compatible with seeding. They will prevent
the grass seed from germinating too. He can either:

A - Use typical pre-emergent on lawn areas that are not being seeded and
and starter fertilizer in seeded areas, which is what he proposed

B - Use a pre-emergent like Tupersan that allows seeding.





Pre-emergent only works before crabgrass sprouts.

That is true with the vast majority of them. But some, eg Dimension,
are also effective against very young stage plants too. So, if you
think it may be too late for a regular one, Dimension would be a good
choice.

Yes. He's got the mix and we don't know what it is.
For myself, I'm trying something different this year.
It's a Spectricide weed stop product that they say can be put down at
any time and is good for 5 months.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 3:27:21 PM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:
On 4/11/2014 10:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, April 11, 2014 9:41:15 AM UTC-4, NorMinn wrote:

On 4/11/2014 8:33 AM, Frank wrote:



On 4/11/2014 6:59 AM, Norminn wrote:



On 4/10/2014 9:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:



I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass



preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to



replace a water pipe.







Now I have two conflicting requirements:







1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating







2. reseed the bare areas.







Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed



while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and



fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?







Any better suggestions?







Perce







It is too late for pre-emergent weed killer, unless you live pretty far



north. Save that for next year (very early spring). Reseed the bare



spot, concentrate on getting your lawn in good condition otherwise



(proper mowing, watering, etc). If you have a lot of broadleaf weeds,



treat them later in the spring, before weather gets hot and dry.



Pre-emergents are the nastiest chemicals, so you don't want to waste it.







My rule of thumb is to get the pre-emergent down before forsythias



bloom. Here in Northern DE its usually the first week of April. Areas



of lawn that warm faster next to asphalt drive and road will germinate



crab grass sooner and even earlier application is needed.







I'm in northern Indiana, and it is too late here to be sure of best



application. Because the stuff is so toxic, I feel it is wiser to hold



off a year rather than spead the stuff around when it is too late to get



best effect on weeds.





Since you previously posted that you only used a pre-emergent

one time, how would you know that it's too late to apply now for

crabgrass control? There is a lot of conflicting data on when to

apply. At most, northern Indiana should be near the end of the

ideal time to apply, but not out of it.

Especially since it's been a cold Spring so far. If you put it

down too early, it can be losing it's effectiveness before

crabgrass even germinates. For that area I would think first

couple weeks in April is about right.















For OP, I'd put down pre-emergent right now and seed without starter



fertilizer which is redundant.







I'd be sure to follow directions, as seeding must be delayed for most



p.e.h.'s. Reading labels helps!







If it's delayed, it's pretty much delayed to Fall, unless you want

to try seeding in summer.







Other plants and weeds have sprouted....we had a blizzard 'bout three

weeks ago, followed 2 or 3 days later by 50 degree daytime temp. It has

been warm/cold alternating for a while. I think that if other weeds are

coming up, the crabgrass is ready, too )

All plants and weeds don't germinate at the same time. Crabgrass
needs soil temps consistently in the upper 50's to low 60's. That's
why broadleaf weeds can be a problem in May/June, but crabgrass isn't
a problem until Jul/Aug. Depending on where the OP is located, it
could be too early, ideal, or too late for pre-emergent. Here in NYC
area, it's about the right time right now.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:55:59 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 4/10/2014 7:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass

preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to

replace a water pipe.



Now I have two conflicting requirements:



1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating



2. reseed the bare areas.



Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed

while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and

fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?



Any better suggestions?



Perce



Lawns are not one of my skills, but the weather the last 2 years damaged

what was not a great lawn to start with (I have great weeds) and I did

some research.



In Minneapolis the suggested period for pre-emergent herbicide

application is May 5-20, on average. And we had a late spring. You might

want to check at a competent garden center.





For grass seed here, may not apply elsewhe

Grass can be low maintenance or high maintenance. High maintenance

presumably looks better, but needs more water and fertilizer.



The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is

"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that

restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance.


I have to disagree with the last part. Improved can mean many
things and it's most often not an indication of higher maintenance.
There is a much bigger market for grass that is low maintenance for one
thing, than one that is high maintenance. That's true in both the
home and commercial markets, especially today with increasing restrictions
on fertilizer use in many places. Some of the things that
get improved are disease resistance, insect resistance, drought tolerance
ie less watering, slower growing, better color, finer texture,
quicker to green up in spring, better color over winter, etc.
With any of those it's almost always a compromise. You can't get
everything in one grass. But as an example, I'd sure take one of the
many newer improved tall fescues over the older Kentucky 31. The
new ones are much finer blades that look a lot better for a lawn.
IMO, high maintenance usually goes along with having a showcase type
lawn.

Anyone that is really interested in the ratings, there is a lot of
data from the NTEP (national turf evaluation program) available
on line. They rate many of the grasses in the above and more
performance catagories at test sites across the USA. Using that can
help you decide what's best for you in terms of your needs and priorities.





Garden centers are likely to have seed mixes that have been around for a

long time and are low maintenance. Likely sold bulk.



Around here garden centers have similar stuff to what's sold at the
big box stores. If you want a specific grass, you can also find
it online sometimes.



Depends on how much work you want to do.



(The package mix I got years ago also does not match the rest of the lawn.)

That's one potential problem with spot seeding. It helps if you
at least know what kind of grass is there now as a start. If you
seed a big bare spot in a bluegrass lawn with K31 tall fescue,
you're probably going to notice it. Most people have no idea of
what's there though.

On 4/10/2014 7:32 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I have combination fertilizer + Pre-emergent weedkiller ("Crab-grass
preventer") that I bought *before* part of our lawn was dug up to
replace a water pipe.

Now I have two conflicting requirements:

1. prevent all the crab-grass seeds from germinating

2. reseed the bare areas.

Will simply covering with plywood or plastic the areas I want to reseed
while I am applying the fertilizer+weedkiller, *then* reseeding and
fertilizing (with starter fertilizer) the bare areas work?

Any better suggestions?

Perce

Lawns are not one of my skills, but the weather the last 2 years damaged
what was not a great lawn to start with (I have great weeds) and I did
some research.

In Minneapolis the suggested period for pre-emergent herbicide
application is May 5-20, on average. And we had a late spring. You might
want to check at a competent garden center.


For grass seed here, may not apply elsewhe
Grass can be low maintenance or high maintenance. High maintenance
presumably looks better, but needs more water and fertilizer.

The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is
"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that
restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance.

Garden centers are likely to have seed mixes that have been around for a
long time and are low maintenance. Likely sold bulk.

Depends on how much work you want to do.

(The package mix I got years ago also does not match the rest of the lawn.)

On 4/13/2014 1:56 PM, bud-- wrote:
....

What has come to market, for homes, does not appear to be low
maintenance (at least here). Looking at many packaged seed mixes
available here, far as I could tell they were all high maintenance.
(They don't tell you that.) I think most people that buy grass seed want
'beautiful' lawns, which requires regulaar fertilizer, and watering when
the weather doesn't cooperate. People who buy grass seed are not likely
to want their lawn to go dormant and brown.
....

A lot of that has to do w/ the "where"...MN is hardly the location for
much in the way of worrying about moisture so it's not surprising that's
what's been concentrated on there. Here in much drier (and hotter)
climate, there's a lot more emphasis on drought-tolerant lawn grasses
and hence, there are a lot more available in stores, even the common
hardware stores, not just lawn specialty places. Of course, KY
bluegrasses aren't very strong in those mixes, either...

--

On 4/11/2014 5:40 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:55:59 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:

The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is
"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that
restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance.


I have to disagree with the last part. Improved can mean many
things and it's most often not an indication of higher maintenance.

The U of MN has a lot of on-line information on low maintenance lawns.
One of them is:
http://www.sustland.umn.edu/maint/coolseas.htm
quote
However, older, "common" types of Kentucky bluegrass but few of the
modern elite bluegrass varieties have the ability to survive extended
drought periods by going into dormancy. ...

For the most part, improved or elite Kentucky bluegrass varieties have
been developed in the last 30 to 40 years. Since most of the
introductions to date have been selected under systems of generally high
fertility and ample moisture, many have limited use in low-maintenance
landscapes. ...

Table 3. Plant and Use Characteristics of Improved KB Varieties ...
- Higher maintenance requiring ample water and fertilizer for optimum health
/quote

There is a much bigger market for grass that is low maintenance for one
thing, than one that is high maintenance. That's true in both the
home and commercial markets, especially today with increasing restrictions
on fertilizer use in many places.

Research certainly can develop seed that is low maintenance:
"However, there is an increasing amount of research being conducted to
improve the water and nutrient conservative nature of improved types. As
this continues, it is likely that improved varieties, with their
superior disease tolerance, will also have increasing levels of
tolerance to environmental stresses and lower fertility levels."

What I wrote is consistent with the link provided (and others).

What has come to market, for homes, does not appear to be low
maintenance (at least here). Looking at many packaged seed mixes
available here, far as I could tell they were all high maintenance.
(They don't tell you that.) I think most people that buy grass seed want
'beautiful' lawns, which requires regulaar fertilizer, and watering when
the weather doesn't cooperate. People who buy grass seed are not likely
to want their lawn to go dormant and brown.

Some of the things that
get improved are disease resistance, insect resistance, drought tolerance
ie less watering, slower growing, better color, finer texture,
quicker to green up in spring, better color over winter, etc.
With any of those it's almost always a compromise. You can't get
everything in one grass. But as an example, I'd sure take one of the
many newer improved tall fescues over the older Kentucky 31. The
new ones are much finer blades that look a lot better for a lawn.
IMO, high maintenance usually goes along with having a showcase type
lawn.

Anyone that is really interested in the ratings, there is a lot of
data from the NTEP (national turf evaluation program) available
on line. They rate many of the grasses in the above and more
performance catagories at test sites across the USA. Using that can
help you decide what's best for you in terms of your needs and priorities.

Garden centers are likely to have seed mixes that have been around for a
long time and are low maintenance. Likely sold bulk.

Around here garden centers have similar stuff to what's sold at the
big box stores. If you want a specific grass, you can also find
it online sometimes.

In addition to the package mixes available everywhere, a good garden
center will have bulk grass seed. The mixes use seeds that have been
available for a long time, and distribution is not controlled. Seed
mixes are available for a variety of uses, including low maintenance.

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:56:20 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 4/11/2014 5:40 PM, trader_4 wrote:

On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:55:59 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:



The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is

"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that

restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance.





I have to disagree with the last part. Improved can mean many

things and it's most often not an indication of higher maintenance.



The U of MN has a lot of on-line information on low maintenance lawns.

One of them is:

http://www.sustland.umn.edu/maint/coolseas.htm

quote

However, older, "common" types of Kentucky bluegrass but few of the

modern elite bluegrass varieties have the ability to survive extended

drought periods by going into dormancy. ...


All lawns are now Kentucky Bluegrass? Good grief. Those geniuses
at Univ of MN wrote a whole piece on cool season grasses and they
don't even mention tall fescue. That should tell you when they stopped
learning and how up to date they are. A lot of lawns and athletic
fields are using that here in the mid-atlantic today. Take a look
at the old varieties of that, eg the K31 that I
specifically cited, and one of the newer cultivars, eg the Rebels,
Justice, etc and there is a big difference in appearance. The older one
is rough, doesn't have great color and is not well suited to lawns.
The newer tall fescues have finer blades, grow slower, and have better
color.

I don't doubt that there is some validity to what they are saying,
especially with Kentucky Blue Grass. If you want a showcase lawn,
anyone will tell you that KBG is the way to go. So, it makes sense that
low maintenance is not going to be a priority for developing many new
cultivars, because those folks are going to water and fertilize as
much as needed. But I think whoever wrote this is going way overboard.
For example, Midnight is one of the newer cultivars of KBG and it
came in very high in the NTEP evaluations. If you really want a low
maintenance lawn, KBG is probably not the right choice to begin with.



For the most part, improved or elite Kentucky bluegrass varieties have

been developed in the last 30 to 40 years. Since most of the

introductions to date have been selected under systems of generally high

fertility and ample moisture, many have limited use in low-maintenance

landscapes. ...


Note that isn't what you said. You said improved very likely means
"high maintenance". They said the improved versions have limited use
in low-maintenance applications. There isn't just low and high. Per
what they said there is also the category of medium-maintenance. That
cultivars aren't well suited to low maintenance, doesn't mean they
are automatically high-maintenance.





Table 3. Plant and Use Characteristics of Improved KB Varieties ...

- Higher maintenance requiring ample water and fertilizer for optimum health

/quote



Again KBG on the brain.





There is a much bigger market for grass that is low maintenance for one

thing, than one that is high maintenance. That's true in both the

home and commercial markets, especially today with increasing restrictions

on fertilizer use in many places.



Research certainly can develop seed that is low maintenance:

"However, there is an increasing amount of research being conducted to

improve the water and nutrient conservative nature of improved types. As

this continues, it is likely that improved varieties, with their

superior disease tolerance, will also have increasing levels of

tolerance to environmental stresses and lower fertility levels."


At least they recognize that improved cultivars have superior disease
resistance. They also have insect resistance. And finer blades, and
are slower growing, etc. That applies to all grasses, not just KBG.
I think the real problem here is they went to sleep and haven't woke
up for a few decades, eg they don't even recognize that tall fescues
are used in lawns today. I bet you can find that in your local stores.





What I wrote is consistent with the link provided (and others).



Is it consistent with this?:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/b546/b546_9.html

"Tall Fescue: Tall fescue continues to be a preferred species selection for usage on many Ohio turfgrass sites, particularly in the southern part of the state. Although the traditional "Kentucky-31" and the new, improved "turf type" cultivars are all technically tall fescues, dramatic differences in quality and appearance exist. Tall fescues in general tolerate soils of low fertility, persist well under low maintenance, and possess good insect and disease tolerance under Ohio conditions. This species possesses rapid establishment, excellent wear tolerance and due to its deep rooted nature, is heat and drought tolerant and will remain green through most Ohio summers without supplemental irrigation. Juvenile tall fescue seedlings are not cold tolerant and will be prone to winterkill. However, well-established seedlings and mature lawns will endure most Ohio winters.

The old "Kentucky-31" cultivar is a coarse, bunch type selection and should not be confused with the fine fescues. "Kentucky-31" tall fescue is desirable only in areas where its coarseness and a bunch growth habit are not objectionable. This cultivar should not be used on lawns where high quality is important.

New, improved, "turf-type" tall fescue cultivars have many improved quality characteristics over the "Kentucky-31." These turf type cultivars are less coarse, grow more upright, tiller more readily and exhibit a darker green color than the old "Kentucky-31." Their major attribute is a lower maintenance requirement than Kentucky bluegrass. These improved types are being used on many lawn sites and are replacing "Kentucky-31" on playgrounds, parks and low maintenance athletic fields. "


Note that "improved" doesn't equate to high maintenance. And they
reconize the many improvements in newer TF cultivars.




What has come to market, for homes, does not appear to be low

maintenance (at least here). Looking at many packaged seed mixes

available here, far as I could tell they were all high maintenance.

What exactly told you they were high maintenance? I don't think
it said it on the package. Here the big box stores, garden centers,
typically have some "lower" maintenance seed and they are marketed
that way with names like "Water-Saver".



(They don't tell you that.) I think most people that buy grass seed want

'beautiful' lawns, which requires regulaar fertilizer, and watering when

the weather doesn't cooperate. People who buy grass seed are not likely

to want their lawn to go dormant and brown.


MAybe not most people, but there are plenty of hippies and
tree huggers that are looking for "green" products, eg grass that
needs less water. I even see adds for it on TV. Bob Vila was
hawking some grass that allegedly didn't need much water just
the other day.



Some of the things that

get improved are disease resistance, insect resistance, drought tolerance

ie less watering, slower growing, better color, finer texture,

quicker to green up in spring, better color over winter, etc.

With any of those it's almost always a compromise. You can't get

everything in one grass. But as an example, I'd sure take one of the

many newer improved tall fescues over the older Kentucky 31. The

new ones are much finer blades that look a lot better for a lawn.

IMO, high maintenance usually goes along with having a showcase type

lawn.



Anyone that is really interested in the ratings, there is a lot of

data from the NTEP (national turf evaluation program) available

on line. They rate many of the grasses in the above and more

performance catagories at test sites across the USA. Using that can

help you decide what's best for you in terms of your needs and priorities.



Garden centers are likely to have seed mixes that have been around for a

long time and are low maintenance. Likely sold bulk.



Around here garden centers have similar stuff to what's sold at the

big box stores. If you want a specific grass, you can also find

it online sometimes.



In addition to the package mixes available everywhere, a good garden

center will have bulk grass seed. The mixes use seeds that have been

available for a long time, and distribution is not controlled. Seed

mixes are available for a variety of uses, including low maintenance.

I think you may have a bug up your ass about "controlled distribution".
I suspect the writers of that piece you cited do too. I guess researchers
should just spend a lot of time and money and then give the results away
for free, instead of getting a couple bucks on a $50 bag, Funny part is,
the price for a bag of decent grass seed
doesn't vary that much with regard to whether someone has control over
it or not. And in the cost of establishing and maintaining a lawn,
it's irrelevant, because the seed is just a tiny fraction of the total
cost.

On 4/13/2014 2:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:56:20 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:

The U of MN has a lot of on-line information on low maintenance lawns.
One of them is:
http://www.sustland.umn.edu/maint/coolseas.htm

quote
However, older, "common" types of Kentucky bluegrass but few of the
modern elite bluegrass varieties have the ability to survive extended
drought periods by going into dormancy. ...

All lawns are now Kentucky Bluegrass? Good grief. Those geniuses
at Univ of MN wrote a whole piece on cool season grasses and they
don't even mention tall fescue.

Kentucky bluegrass is the dominant variety used in sunny areas here (but
not shady).

"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and
low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have
sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and
variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will
consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not
recommended for Minnesota lawns."

You tend to read into something what you want to.

That should tell you when they stopped
learning and how up to date they are.

Yawn


I don't doubt that there is some validity to what they are saying,
especially with Kentucky Blue Grass. If you want a showcase lawn,
anyone will tell you that KBG is the way to go. So, it makes sense that
low maintenance is not going to be a priority for developing many new
cultivars, because those folks are going to water and fertilize as
much as needed. But I think whoever wrote this is going way overboard.
For example, Midnight is one of the newer cultivars of KBG and it
came in very high in the NTEP evaluations. If you really want a low
maintenance lawn, KBG is probably not the right choice to begin with.

Kentucky bluegrass is the dominant variety here in sunny locations.

"Low Maintenance:
Suitable grasses are common Kentucky bluegrass varieties & fine-leaved
fescues (e.g., creeping red, chewings and hard fescue)"

"Common" means the varieties have been around a long time. They will not
likely be used in packaged mixes because package mixes want varieties
whose distribution can be controlled.


For the most part, improved or elite Kentucky bluegrass varieties have
been developed in the last 30 to 40 years. Since most of the
introductions to date have been selected under systems of generally high
fertility and ample moisture, many have limited use in low-maintenance
landscapes. ...


Note that isn't what you said. You said improved very likely means
"high maintenance". They said the improved versions have limited use
in low-maintenance applications. There isn't just low and high. Per
what they said there is also the category of medium-maintenance. That
cultivars aren't well suited to low maintenance, doesn't mean they
are automatically high-maintenance.

What a great idea.
Use varieties that "have limited use in low-maintenance applications"
for a lawn I want to be low maintenance.


Research certainly can develop seed that is low maintenance:
"However, there is an increasing amount of research being conducted to
improve the water and nutrient conservative nature of improved types. As
this continues, it is likely that improved varieties, with their
superior disease tolerance, will also have increasing levels of
tolerance to environmental stresses and lower fertility levels."

At least they recognize that improved cultivars have superior disease
resistance. They also have insect resistance. And finer blades, and
are slower growing, etc. That applies to all grasses, not just KBG.
I think the real problem here is they went to sleep and haven't woke
up for a few decades, eg they don't even recognize that tall fescues
are used in lawns today. I bet you can find that in your local stores.

"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and
low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have
sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and
variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will
consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not
recommended for Minnesota lawns."


What I wrote is consistent with the link provided (and others).

Is it consistent with this?:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/b546/b546_9.html

"Tall Fescue: Tall fescue continues to be a preferred species selection for usage
on many Ohio turfgrass sites ...

"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and
low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have
sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and
variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will
consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not
recommended for Minnesota lawns."


What has come to market, for homes, does not appear to be low
maintenance (at least here). Looking at many packaged seed mixes
available here, far as I could tell they were all high maintenance.

What exactly told you they were high maintenance? I don't think
it said it on the package. Here the big box stores, garden centers,
typically have some "lower" maintenance seed and they are marketed
that way with names like "Water-Saver".

Various internet sites have information on what varieties are high and
low maintenance. The link I provided has some of that information. What
I found in package mixes, to the extent I could identify them, were high
maintenance.

I have not seen "water-saver" here.


Garden centers are likely to have seed mixes that have been around for a
long time and are low maintenance. Likely sold bulk.

Around here garden centers have similar stuff to what's sold at the
big box stores. If you want a specific grass, you can also find
it online sometimes.

In addition to the package mixes available everywhere, a good garden
center will have bulk grass seed. The mixes use seeds that have been
available for a long time, and distribution is not controlled. Seed
mixes are available for a variety of uses, including low maintenance.

I think you may have a bug up your ass about "controlled distribution".
I suspect the writers of that piece you cited do too. I guess researchers
should just spend a lot of time and money and then give the results away
for free, instead of getting a couple bucks on a $50 bag, Funny part is,
the price for a bag of decent grass seed
doesn't vary that much with regard to whether someone has control over
it or not. And in the cost of establishing and maintaining a lawn,
it's irrelevant, because the seed is just a tiny fraction of the total
cost.

Maybe you could actually figure out what I am saying.

On Monday, April 14, 2014 3:36:30 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 4/13/2014 2:34 PM, trader_4 wrote:

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:56:20 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:



The U of MN has a lot of on-line information on low maintenance lawns.

One of them is:

http://www.sustland.umn.edu/maint/coolseas.htm



quote

However, older, "common" types of Kentucky bluegrass but few of the

modern elite bluegrass varieties have the ability to survive extended

drought periods by going into dormancy. ...



All lawns are now Kentucky Bluegrass? Good grief. Those geniuses

at Univ of MN wrote a whole piece on cool season grasses and they

don't even mention tall fescue.



Kentucky bluegrass is the dominant variety used in sunny areas here (but

not shady).



Sure KBG is widely used in sunny areas in cool climates. Here in the NYC
area tall fescues are very popular too. Take a look at K31 vs the newer
turf type tall fescues and you'll see that there are a lot improvements
and those improvements don't equate with high maintenance. That's my point..

Also, perhaps it's time to back up. Look at where that advice on grass
you citedis coming from. It's from the "sustainable lawn" section of
the website.
So, of course they are going to be talking about lawns in that context.
I'm not even sure that term makes sense. Usually it's applied to things
like fishing or tree harvesting, where it's a crop. Apparently a sustainable
lawn is one that requires little or no fertilizer and added water.
I'd call that an environmental friendly lawn, or a green lawn. Almost any lawn
is sustainable. But when they are coming at lawn issues from that perspective,
of course the recommendations are going to be different. Does that make
a lawn that gets fertilized twice a year and water when necessary high
maintenance? No. It's medium maintenance. And an improved variety of
grass for that medium maintenance segment that has better color, texture,
disease/insect resistance, etc, isn't *high maintenance*.






"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and

low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have

sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and

variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will

consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not

recommended for Minnesota lawns."



You tend to read into something what you want to.



From the University of Nebraska:

http://turf.unl.edu/pdfcaextpub/Gras...lawns2012k.pdf


"The primary turf grasses species recommended for lawns in the Northern
Great Plains are the cool-season KBG and tall fescues and the warm season buffalo-grass."

Kind of odd that tall fescue is recommended in ND, but won't grow one state over
in MN because it's too cold. But not that it matters, whatever is true
for lawns in MN doesn't make it so for the whole USA.




That should tell you when they stopped

learning and how up to date they are.



Yawn



University of ND isn't yawning....






I don't doubt that there is some validity to what they are saying,

especially with Kentucky Blue Grass. If you want a showcase lawn,

anyone will tell you that KBG is the way to go. So, it makes sense that

low maintenance is not going to be a priority for developing many new

cultivars, because those folks are going to water and fertilize as

much as needed. But I think whoever wrote this is going way overboard.

For example, Midnight is one of the newer cultivars of KBG and it

came in very high in the NTEP evaluations. If you really want a low

maintenance lawn, KBG is probably not the right choice to begin with.



Kentucky bluegrass is the dominant variety here in sunny locations.



Which makes it true for the whole country, regardless of grass type,
sun/shade, etc.?



"Low Maintenance:

Suitable grasses are common Kentucky bluegrass varieties & fine-leaved

fescues (e.g., creeping red, chewings and hard fescue)"



Who said we're restricted to low maintenance? You made the claim
that improved varieties of most grass seeds equates to "high maintenance".
That isn't true. Even your own source didn's say that. They said
that the newer varities of *KBG* have limited use in *low maintenance*
lawns. They didn't say it equates to *high maintenance*, even for KBG.
Low maintenance, by their definition, is little to no water. Medium
maintenance is some water, high is regularly watered.

There is a huge market for grass seed that is medium maintenance, it's
probably what most customers walking into a store are looking for. If
you have grass seeds that are improved for color, texture, disease
resistance, etc, it doesn't automatically make them "high maintenance".
In fact, as I've said before, there are grasses that are specifically
improved to use less water. Here's one that's available at HD:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-Sav...i_src=17588969


The RTF stands for rhizomatous tall fescue. They've developed a
tall fescue that has the ability to spread and repair itself like
KBG. That's a major improvement and it doesn't make it high maintenance.
It makes it lower maintenance.



"Common" means the varieties have been around a long time. They will not

likely be used in packaged mixes because package mixes want varieties

whose distribution can be controlled.



Pure BS. And again, back to this "controlled" thing. What exactly
is that all about? Grass seed suppliers will generally sell their
seed to anyone willing to buy it. All kinds of companies then buy
that seed, typically mix it with other types and/or cultivars, and
then package it for retail. What is controlled about that? The
only control I see there is if the cultivar was developed somewhere,
they get a pittance for each pound sold and that if you buy the seed,
you can't go out and start producing it yourself. What does any
of that have to do with a consumer buying grass seed?

So, they charge a small premium for cultivars that have improved
features, and that's a bad thing, to be avoided? Good grief. The
total cost of seed for a lawn is insignificant anyway compared to the
total cost.







For the most part, improved or elite Kentucky bluegrass varieties have

been developed in the last 30 to 40 years. Since most of the

introductions to date have been selected under systems of generally high

fertility and ample moisture, many have limited use in low-maintenance

landscapes. ...





Note that isn't what you said. You said improved very likely means

"high maintenance". They said the improved versions have limited use

in low-maintenance applications. There isn't just low and high. Per

what they said there is also the category of medium-maintenance. That

cultivars aren't well suited to low maintenance, doesn't mean they

are automatically high-maintenance.



What a great idea.

Use varieties that "have limited use in low-maintenance applications"

for a lawn I want to be low maintenance.


You were not commenting on what you were using on your lawn or
low maintenance applications. This is what you posted:

"The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is
"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that
restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance. "

A - It's a general statement

B - You're claiming that improved means high maintenance. You're own
source on "sustainable lawns" didn't even say that. They just said
that these improved varieties are of limited use in *low maintenance*
lawns. You flipped that into those grasses being *high maintenance*,
completely ignoring that the authors have the *medium maintenance*
category which comprises a huge market segment, probably most of the
market.








Research certainly can develop seed that is low maintenance:

"However, there is an increasing amount of research being conducted to

improve the water and nutrient conservative nature of improved types. As

this continues, it is likely that improved varieties, with their

superior disease tolerance, will also have increasing levels of

tolerance to environmental stresses and lower fertility levels."



At least they recognize that improved cultivars have superior disease

resistance. They also have insect resistance. And finer blades, and

are slower growing, etc. That applies to all grasses, not just KBG.

I think the real problem here is they went to sleep and haven't woke

up for a few decades, eg they don't even recognize that tall fescues

are used in lawns today. I bet you can find that in your local stores.



"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and

low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have

sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and

variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will

consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not

recommended for Minnesota lawns."



Funny, one state west, ND and it's on the recommended list. Which is
why I suspect these folks have been a sleep for 20 years, as TF has
been used more and more. And one big reason that's happened is that
the cultivars have been greatly improved.





What I wrote is consistent with the link provided (and others).



Is it consistent with this?:



http://ohioline.osu.edu/b546/b546_9.html



"Tall Fescue: Tall fescue continues to be a preferred species selection for usage

on many Ohio turfgrass sites ...



"Turf-type tall fescue varieties are suitable for athletic fields and

low-maintenance lawns in some areas of the country, but do not have

sufficient cold tolerance for Minnesota conditions. Further testing and

variety development may lead to varieties of tall fescue that will

consistently withstand Minnesota winters. At present, tall fescue is not

recommended for Minnesota lawns."





What has come to market, for homes, does not appear to be low

maintenance (at least here). Looking at many packaged seed mixes

available here, far as I could tell they were all high maintenance.



What exactly told you they were high maintenance? I don't think

it said it on the package. Here the big box stores, garden centers,

typically have some "lower" maintenance seed and they are marketed

that way with names like "Water-Saver".



Various internet sites have information on what varieties are high and

low maintenance.

Again ignoring what is probably the largest category, medium maintenance,
that is right in your own source.


The link I provided has some of that information. What

I found in package mixes, to the extent I could identify them, were high

maintenance.



How would you even know? Apparently anything that is not low-maintenance,
is high maintenance to you. Here's an example of a newer KBG cultivar,
"Midnight":

http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-vari...b-bag-160.html

Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass Seed - Probably the most outstanding feature of Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass is its unusually dark blue-green color, making it the darkest bluegrass available. Its high tiller density provides a thick carpet that will stand up to the abuses of high traffic associated with parks and athletic fields. Sod producers and homeowners enjoy Midnight's dwarf growth characteristics, which result in fewer mowings and reduced maintenance costs. In recent university trials, this cultivar has shown good resistance to Leaf Spot, Stem Rust, Stripe Smut and Dollar Spot, as well as good heat and drought tolerance."

If I followed your statement, I would not use that grass on my
lawn here in NJ, because it must be "high maintenance".

On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:02:38 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
On 4/15/2014 8:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Kind of odd that tall fescue is recommended in ND, but won't grow one state over

in MN because it's too cold. But not that it matters, whatever is true

for lawns in MN doesn't make it so for the whole USA.



I put up a link that supports the idea that package mixes generally are

not low maintenance.



But of course that isn't even close to what you posted. In fact, now
you're even going further off the rails. Your source said nothing
about "package mixes" at all. All they said was that improved KBG cultivars
are not well suited to *low maintenance* lawns. You morphed that into
all improved turf grass cultivars being *high maintenance*, completely
ignoring the category of *medium maintenance*, which is right in your own link and the largest segment of the market. It also ignores that KBG is only
one type of grass. Good grief.





I did not suggest looking at that site to select a grass variety in

another area. I would not suggest what anyone somewhere else should use.




You are the one that is trying to generalize what works in one area is

true elsewhere.



Now you're lying. Here is exactly what you posted and with that original
post there was no link to anything, just this:

"The packaged grass seed mix you get at hardware/box/similar stores is
"genetically improved", which means there is a patent (or whatever) that
restricts the sale. "Improved" very likely means high maintenance. "

The above is not what your own source says. It's not even close to
what they said. The didn't say that improved means high maintenance
and they never used the term packaged grass seed mix at all. And note
that there was no mention of what you posted, being restricted to low maintenance lawns in MN. Is that were the OP is?



You are arguing just to argue. I am not interested.

And of course that doesn't apply to you. How typical.

On 4/15/2014 8:30 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Kind of odd that tall fescue is recommended in ND, but won't grow one state over
in MN because it's too cold. But not that it matters, whatever is true
for lawns in MN doesn't make it so for the whole USA.

I put up a link that supports the idea that package mixes generally are
not low maintenance.

I did not suggest looking at that site to select a grass variety in
another area. I would not suggest what anyone somewhere else should use.

You are the one that is trying to generalize what works in one area is
true elsewhere.

You are arguing just to argue. I am not interested.