My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:27:11 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?
Generally not.

On 4/3/14 7:27 PM, Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?


Not an answer to your question but it brings up something I've
wondered about. Why don't plumbers use some sort of horizontal boring
tool along with a liner to fix problems like this? Is it cost or some
technical reason? Maybe the second guess leads to the first?

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:27:11 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

Another option:

_The Sewer Pipe Lining Solution_

"Lining a sewer drainpipe involves the installation of an
appropriately sized STRUCTUAL “sleeve” inside the pipe. The
structural liner can be as short as two feet long for a tree root
“spot repair” or as long as necessary to structurally line and
rehabilitate a complete horizontal and vertical drainage system. After
proper cleaning and prepping of the pipe the liner is installed and
cured in place within 6 hours. There is NO INTRUSIVE DEOMOLITION OF
WALLS OR TRENCHING OF CONCRETE AND LANDSCAPED AREAS. After the pipe is
cured, the smooth walls of the structural lining material will
actually greatly improve the flow capabilities of the existing “host”
pipe. The liner will seamlessly eliminate all holes, cracks, and
channeling that cause clogs, stoppages, soil erosion, and root
intrusion."

See video at page bottom.

http://www.pipelt.com/sewer-repair/

IIRC, TOH showed this being done.

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:27:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

Another option:

_The Sewer Pipe Lining Solution_

That sounds promising. Can it be done if the ceramic pipe has already
caved in in one area? Or maybe that one spot might have to be fixed
as the plumber said, and this can be used to hold it for a while.

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:33:17 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:27:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

Another option:

_The Sewer Pipe Lining Solution_

That sounds promising. Can it be done if the ceramic pipe has already
caved in in one area? Or maybe that one spot might have to be fixed
as the plumber said, and this can be used to hold it for a while.

I'd imagine, as mentioned in the link, the plumber would clean and
prep the pipe first. The liner goes in, expanded and allowed to cure.

Certainly look into this option. I would before I started tearing up
concrete YMMV

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:01:49 -0700, Oren wrote:

I'd imagine, as mentioned in the link, the plumber would clean and
prep the pipe first. The liner goes in, expanded and allowed to cure.

The bad spot is probably at least 20 feet from the nearest edge of the
house. Can it be preped that far?

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:01:49 -0700, Oren wrote:

I'd imagine, as mentioned in the link,


The link also said that they generally didn't run the clay lines under
buildings, but they did this time. :-)

How does the plumber know what and where the failure is located? Did he have a camera on a cable, or is he basing it on similar failures in similar houses in the neighborhood?

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:27:11 PM UTC-7, Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.

Harry K

chess1851On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:51:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote:

How does the plumber know what and where the failure is located? Did he have a camera on a cable, or is he basing it on similar failures in similar houses in the neighborhood?

As far as I know, he doesn't have a camera. He has worked on their
system several times, though.

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.

I will.

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:01:49 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:33:17 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:27:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

Another option:

_The Sewer Pipe Lining Solution_

That sounds promising. Can it be done if the ceramic pipe has already
caved in in one area? Or maybe that one spot might have to be fixed
as the plumber said, and this can be used to hold it for a while.

I'd imagine, as mentioned in the link, the plumber would clean and
prep the pipe first. The liner goes in, expanded and allowed to cure.

Certainly look into this option. I would before I started tearing up
concrete YMMV

And if we're going to be suspicious of the plumber's advice, I'll remind
you of what happened to my friend. His plumber was going to dig up the
front lawn, IIRC (that is, not the basement floor, but I could be wrong)
when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out
and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder
pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned
next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the
county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.

His other friend suggested it because same thing happened to him,
including a different plumber's bad recommendation. Everyone trusts the
second plumber's honesty, but he may be self-trained and incompetent, or
maybe they shouldn't trust him. (Can't a reasonably smart guy who worked
for a couple years as a plumber's assistant and studied the book for a
while pass the license exam without actually being competent? Even
while he thinks he's competent?) I think he had fouled up before on
something smaller. And there was another plumber who had a column in a
community newspaper in which he warned homeowners about the sharp jaws
in the garbage disposal. In-sink-erator makes over 90% of the
disposals, under several brand names, and my model at least has no sharp
jaws.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 00:17:17 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

chess1851On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:51:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote:

How does the plumber know what and where the failure is located? Did he have a camera on a cable, or is he basing it on similar failures in similar houses in the neighborhood?

As far as I know, he doesn't have a camera. He has worked on their
system several times, though.

Well if the repair is 5000 and the camera job is 700 (total guesses)
I'd have a 3rd party come out with a camera. Just one reason, my
friend, whose clog was not even on his own property.

Of course the plumber might say he DOES have a camera and he'll use it
for 200, or much less than the third party. If I were a homeowner, I'd
want to watch, but could I understand any more than my colonoscopy?

If perchance it is covered by insurance, the insurance company might pay
in the same way medical insurance will pay for an MRI prior to surgery,
to make sure one needs the surgery. But even if they have to pay
themselves.

micky wrote:
On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 00:17:17 -0400, Judson McCranie
wrote:

chess1851On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:51:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

How does the plumber know what and where the failure is located? Did
he have a camera on a cable, or is he basing it on similar failures in
similar houses in the neighborhood?

As far as I know, he doesn't have a camera. He has worked on their
system several times, though.

Well if the repair is 5000 and the camera job is 700 (total guesses)
I'd have a 3rd party come out with a camera. Just one reason, my
friend, whose clog was not even on his own property.

Of course the plumber might say he DOES have a camera and he'll use it
for 200, or much less than the third party. If I were a homeowner, I'd
want to watch, but could I understand any more than my colonoscopy?

If perchance it is covered by insurance, the insurance company might pay
in the same way medical insurance will pay for an MRI prior to surgery,
to make sure one needs the surgery. But even if they have to pay
themselves.

I had a local company scope my pipe for free as part of the estimate. I
told them that I suspected a root infiltration problem. The found a joint
in the cast iron pipe that roots had grown through.

Is was something like $2K to line the pipe up to just past the joint with a
5 year guarantee. $4K to line the pipe all the way to the town's
connection.

I apply a $25 treatment of Root-X once a year and haven't had a root
problem in 3 years.

On 4/3/2014 11:03 PM, Harry K wrote:

Does the insurance cover things like this?

I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.

Harry K

Hoping someone would write that. Why would a
bunch of (or even one) usenet poster know what
is in the OP insurance policy?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 4/4/2014 3:06 AM, micky wrote:
when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out
and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder
pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned
next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the
county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.


Your friend is illegal alien, and pays
zero taxes?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 4/3/2014 8:27 PM, Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?


Years ago I had a pipe freeze and break.
The insurance covered the damage to the house which was ceiling drywall
but did not cover the repair of the pipe.

Judson McCranie writes:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

(a) read your policy
(b) call your agent
(c) don't expect good advice from usenet :-)

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:51:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

How does the plumber know what and where the failure is located?

That is the correct question!

Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

If the plumber said he thinks your parents' homeowners insurance might cover
the work, I assume that he has some reason to believe that -- such as prior
jobs that he did for others in the area that apparently were at least
partially covered by insurance. So, of course, check with your parents'
insurance agent to see what their policy says and what it does and does not
cover.

The video camera idea that was suggested by others would make sense to me.
Where is the property located? --which State? In my area (New Jersey and
nearby Pennsylvania) a video of a sewer line costs $295 or less. That would
definitely be worth it before chopping up concrete, in my opinion.

And, where does the sewer line run? Is it below the concrete in an open
basement, or is it below a cement slab that the first floor rooms of the
house are on? If it is an open basement, is there an exposed sewer stack
that comes down along the wall of the basement? Sometimes, you can tie into
the sewer stack in the basement above the floor and then run a new PVC sewer
line along the wall above the concrete floor, then through the exterior
wall, and then on the outside dig down and tie it into the exterior line
and/or the street sewer line. If all of the circumstances allow for this
idea, you could avoid digging up the concrete. But, then again, if it is an
open basement and the sewer line runs under the concrete basement floor,
opening up the basement floor may be easy. Especially in older homes,
sometimes the basement floor is just an easy-to-break 2-inch +/- slab that
breaks up very easily.

More info and/or a few photos may help in terms of getting ideas of what
your parents' options may be.

Let us know what you figure out on this one.

Good luck.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:34:26 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 4/4/2014 3:06 AM, micky wrote:
when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out
and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder
pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned
next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the
county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.


Your friend is illegal alien, and pays
zero taxes?

Even illegal aliens pay property taxes. Indirectly if they rent,
directly if they own. Just like everyone else.

The county paid for the sewer cleaning. The population of Baltimore
county is about 60,000 families, so my friend paid about 1/60,000th of
it in his taxes.

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:27:11 PM UTC-7, Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.

Harry K
No they are not, but a "standard homeowners policy" does not cover it.
If she is covered she has purchased extended coverage at (significant)
extra cost.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:52:54 -0400, micky
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:34:26 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 4/4/2014 3:06 AM, micky wrote:
when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out
and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder
pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned
next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the
county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.


Your friend is illegal alien, and pays
zero taxes?

Even illegal aliens pay property taxes. Indirectly if they rent,
directly if they own. Just like everyone else.

The county paid for the sewer cleaning. The population of Baltimore
county is about 60,000 families, so my friend paid about 1/60,000th of
it in his taxes.
And not one penny more than if he didn't get it fixed - so yes, he
DID get it done at no (additional)cost.

On 4/4/2014 7:00 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:27:11 PM UTC-7, Judson McCranie wrote:
My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer
pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it
has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he
would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete
slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after
the deductable).

Does the insurance cover things like this?

I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.

Harry K
No they are not, but a "standard homeowners policy" does not cover it.
If she is covered she has purchased extended coverage at (significant)
extra cost.


Yes, usually one of the home warranty deals. I've never heard of a
homeowner's policy covering maintenance issues.

over 15 years ago I had bad tree root troubles..........

so every spring I dump a 25 pound bag of rock salt in my wash tub and mix with very hot water, this kills tree roots but leaves the trees unaffected..

had a camera inspection every joint in the clay tile had tree roots but one...

THIS REALLY WORKS!!

and is really cheap!

On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:55:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/4/2014 7:00 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:



On Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:27:11 PM UTC-7, Judson McCranie wrote:

My parents have a house that was built in the late 1940s. The sewer

pipe is the old ceramic type and it runs under the house. Part of it

has collapsed and the plumber says he knows where. To get to it, he

would have to go through the floor and jackhammer through the concrete

slab. He thinks that their homeowner's insurance will cover it (after

the deductable).



Does the insurance cover things like this?



I hope you don't make a decision like that based on something posted here. The proper answer is: "Ask her insurance provider" All policies are not identical.



Harry K

No they are not, but a "standard homeowners policy" does not cover it.

If she is covered she has purchased extended coverage at (significant)

extra cost.





Yes, usually one of the home warranty deals. I've never heard of a

homeowner's policy covering maintenance issues.

I agree. They should check the policy and/or agent, but I've never
heard of one covering a sewer pipe replacement due to old age. If
it was something catastrophic and sudden, like a tree falling and
somehow taking out some pipe, then it would be different. They will
pay for damage caused to the house, eg cleaning sewage from the basement,
if that happened as a result of the sewer pipe, but not for the pipe
itself. At least that's how it's worked in any case I've heard of.
Still, OP should check to be sure.

On 4/4/2014 10:00 PM, bob haller wrote:
over 15 years ago I had bad tree root troubles..........

so every spring I dump a 25 pound bag of rock salt in my wash tub and mix with very hot water, this kills tree roots but leaves the trees unaffected..

had a camera inspection every joint in the clay tile had tree roots but one...

THIS REALLY WORKS!!

and is really cheap!


Over how long of a period did you let the salt run into the pipe?
Drizzle for a day or a bit surge of brine? I had a root problem for
the first time and plan to start doing the salt every year now.

bob haller wrote:
over 15 years ago I had bad tree root troubles..........

so every spring I dump a 25 pound bag of rock salt in my wash tub and
mix with very hot water, this kills tree roots but leaves the trees
unaffected..

had a camera inspection every joint in the clay tile had tree roots
but one...

THIS REALLY WORKS!!

and is really cheap!

I have never tried this, and at this time I don't need to where all of my
properties are located (except for one). All of my properties (except the
one) have cast iron sewer lines and no trees or bushes in the area. For the
one exception property, I have one of those sewer line insurance protection
policies on that sewer line that the water company sells. Ordinarily, I
wouldn't even get one of those policies but this sewer line runs out to the
center of the street right under a HUGE oak tree at the curb. So, if I ever
have to replace that sewer line, it would be a big expense and not something
that I could do myself.

But, about the salt idea...., I did used to have a property where roots were
a recurring problem. Since I no longer own the property, it is not an issue
for me. But, if I did do the salt idea, I am guessing that it would be good
to be able to block off the sewer line near the curb vent if possible, and
then let the hot rock salt water fill up the sewer pipe and stay there for
as long as possible before opening up the sewer line again. Do you do that
or something similar?

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 9:39:08 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/4/2014 10:00 PM, bob haller wrote:

over 15 years ago I had bad tree root troubles..........



so every spring I dump a 25 pound bag of rock salt in my wash tub and mix with very hot water, this kills tree roots but leaves the trees unaffected..



had a camera inspection every joint in the clay tile had tree roots but one...



THIS REALLY WORKS!!



and is really cheap!





Over how long of a period did you let the salt run into the pipe?

Drizzle for a day or a bit surge of brine? I had a root problem for

the first time and plan to start doing the salt every year now.

ideally no one will be home all day. After everyone has left I dump the rocksalt in the washtub, use the hottest water possible and try to fill the tub with water, while stirring with a shovel. When a good bit of water has run, and about half the salt has dissolved I turn the water off and leave for work.

The remaing salt dissolves over time in the tub since the washing machine dumps it water in the tub.

So one healthy dose of salt followed by some more till its all dissolved.

its worked for me for over 15 years, is super cheap, and cant kill trees or bushes like the root killer copper sulhate can.

I have a mature tree in my back yard thats over 200 years old, and its roots can travel more that 3 times its drip line......

Normall its 2 times the drip line at least for sycamores.

a friends neighbor used root killer, and killed 2 huge trees. he spent thousands having them cut down .......

blocking the exit of the line doesnt appear to matter, although if the line is blocked it would fill withsalt water and be more effective.

but it has worked fine as is.

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 21:09:18 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 9:39:08 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 4/4/2014 10:00 PM, bob haller wrote:

over 15 years ago I had bad tree root troubles..........



so every spring I dump a 25 pound bag of rock salt in my wash tub and mix with very hot water, this kills tree roots but leaves the trees unaffected..



had a camera inspection every joint in the clay tile had tree roots but one...



THIS REALLY WORKS!!



and is really cheap!





Over how long of a period did you let the salt run into the pipe?

Drizzle for a day or a bit surge of brine? I had a root problem for

the first time and plan to start doing the salt every year now.

ideally no one will be home all day. After everyone has left I dump the rocksalt in the washtub, use the hottest water possible and try to fill the tub with water, while stirring with a shovel. When a good bit of water has run, and about half the salt has dissolved I turn the water off and leave for work.

The remaing salt dissolves over time in the tub since the washing machine dumps it water in the tub.

So one healthy dose of salt followed by some more till its all dissolved.

its worked for me for over 15 years, is super cheap, and cant kill trees or bushes like the root killer copper sulhate can.

I have a mature tree in my back yard thats over 200 years old, and its roots can travel more that 3 times its drip line......

Normall its 2 times the drip line at least for sycamores.

a friends neighbor used root killer, and killed 2 huge trees. he spent thousands having them cut down .......
Just install a water softener and the resin purge will salt the
roots on a fairly regular basis.

On 4/4/2014 3:52 PM, micky wrote:
On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:34:26 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 4/4/2014 3:06 AM, micky wrote:
when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out
and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder
pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned
next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the
county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.


Your friend is illegal alien, and pays
zero taxes?

Even illegal aliens pay property taxes. Indirectly if they rent,
directly if they own. Just like everyone else.

Don't bother trying to enlighten him. He and his fellow RWNJs don't
care for truth or reality. They have the courage of their delusions.
It's what comes from an eighth-grade education.

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:26:39 AM UTC-4, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 4/4/2014 3:52 PM, micky wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 07:34:26 -0500, Stormin Mormon

wrote:



On 4/4/2014 3:06 AM, micky wrote:

when another friend told my friend to call the county. They came out

and cleaned that portion of the pipe that belonged to them, the feeder

pipe that was under the county street and the land the country owned

next to the street, and everything worked fine after that. It was the

county's responsibility and didn't cost my friend a penny.





Your friend is illegal alien, and pays

zero taxes?



Even illegal aliens pay property taxes. Indirectly if they rent,

directly if they own. Just like everyone else.



Don't bother trying to enlighten him. He and his fellow RWNJs don't

care for truth or reality. They have the courage of their delusions.

It's what comes from an eighth-grade education.

The reality is that property tax is just one of many taxes.
I suspect the poster is referring to federal and state income tax,
not property tax. And even in the case of property taxes, when you
have 6 Mexican workers living in one small apartment, I'm not sure they
are paying their fare share.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2014 11:07:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

The reality is that property tax is just one of many taxes.
I suspect the poster is referring to federal and state income tax,
not property tax. And even in the case of property taxes, when you
have 6 Mexican workers living in one small apartment, I'm not sure they
are paying their fare share.


....yet those six pay a sales tax for purchases and tax on fuel