On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
wrote:

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the
UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried
about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the
fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
does not involve adding a transfer switch.
_________________________________________________ _________________________

Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low voltage power.
Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a dedicated circuit that's
always powered by a large (costly) deep discharge battery on a constant
charging circuit. If you use a car battery you'll severely shorten its life
if you deeply discharge it more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of doing what you
want to do and having it approved by an inspector. But it is an
interesting idea and probably will be the way things are done 50 years from
now.

SH

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this application
that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

philo wrote:
On 02/12/2014 06:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
lb desk lamps out of them.




I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one

They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it but the
transmitters were still vacuum tube.

In fact, when my class finished basic ET school, the guys that were going
on to Loran school were split into 2 groups: those that were going to
stations with vacuum tube timing equipment and those that were going to
stations that had been upgraded. I got lucky. The techs at LorSta Sylt
Germany were upgrading the equipment while I was going to school in NYC to
learn how to work on it. By the time I got to Sylt the old equipment was in
the hallway and the new equipment had just gone on air.

As it turned out, I enjoyed working on the old transmitters more than the
new timing equipment so I spent most of my time in the transmitter
building, a quarter mile from the main station. At all Loran stations the
transmitter building, which was at the base of the tower, was always placed
as far from the main station as the tower was high. Even though the towers
were guyed to spin straight down if they failed, they still placed them
where they couldn't reach main station if they ever fell over sideways.

The thing about the old transmitters is that they constantly needed
preventative maintenance and when they broke you actually had to
troubleshoot them instead of just swapping out circuit boards. There was
always something to do and you got to play with high voltage and real
tools. Besides, the station officers were mostly afraid of the high voltage
so they left us alone when we were out there.

My favorite troubleshooting time was when we had to find the cause of an
arc inside the transmitter. The transmitters had metal plates covering
various sections and sometimes they would arc internally where we couldn't
see what was going on.

We would remove the metal plates, turn off the lights in the transmitter
building, and run the power supply up to the normal 15KV operating voltage.
If it didn't arc soon enough for our liking, we'd run it up to 20KV, wait a
little while then run it up to 25KV. At that voltage, anything that was
going to arc usually did - and with authority. Even though you knew it was
coming, it still scared the crap out of you.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 00:03:07 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
lb desk lamps out of them.

Weren't those 4CX1000 tubes?

wrote in message news:a2add6e8-9f45-43be-a90a-

stuff snipped

True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a
typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in
and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.
If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.
But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his
existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.

Oy vay, is it NOT kosher. He asked if there was a way to do with that would
not use a transfer switch AND would be "inspectable." No way, Jose. I got
a whole bunch of Philips' "Stumble Lights" from a wholesaler a few years
back. They are 4 LED units with motion and ambient light detectors that run
off a 9VDC wall wart. To make them work during a power failure I removed
the wall warts and now they are all connected to a deep discharge, 80Ah
wheelchair battery. Because they draw so little power on standby they can
(and have) run for days when the main power has failed.

Fortunately, the long wire runs back to the main battery drop the voltage
almost exactly enough to run at 9VDC. As you walk through the house, even
in a total power failure, the Stumble lights sense motion and light up the
way. They've saved a lot of banged up knees and worse. Installed their
precursor (strings of LED lights) after I forgot I had left a big, black
stereo speaker on the floor and broke my toe on it one night.

Yes, I agree. But from what he's written, I think the intention
is to use a basic UPS that he already has and I doubt it's designed
for being hardwired in.

Agreed. While we can't be exactly sure of his intentions, the parameters he
set (using existing gear, no transfer switch and being code-compliant) seem
impossible to fulfill. At least not without an UPS the size of which I have
never seen and not even then because it would still need a transfer switch.

You could easily wire in 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on low voltag
e wiring for far less than such a massive UPS would cost. They would be far
more efficient because there would be no losses from taking a battery,
creating 110VAC from it and then powering LEDs that transform that AC back
into DC. As someone else pointed out, backfeeding the grid like that would
not be a good idea nor would the UPS last very long. Jimmie has a good
idea, it just has to be implemented in parallel with the existing lighting,
not using the existing lighting.

--
Bobby G.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100
watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the
UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried
about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the
fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this
with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into
the UPS.

Jimmie

{{{


We have similar problem with stand by lighting. We use an always on
inverter as a continuous feed to the lighting. The inverter is on a triple
stage flow charge and deep cycle batteries. Capacity is at least a week
mostly because of the available deep cycle batteries. Side benifit I can
rub the TV and radio as needed withou noticable loss of capacity. The
batteries are located in the garage so push come to shove I can top
off/recharge with the car.

Deep cycle golf cart batteries are cheap if you feel the need to run the
fridge and/or a microwave.

On 2/12/2014 10:13 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year
or so.

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg


http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

The computer engineers had to replace tubes in those beasts on a daily
basis. ^_^

TDD

On 2/12/2014 7:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
philo wrote:
On 02/12/2014 06:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a
year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg



http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with
these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament
current 300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power
1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and
made 25 lb desk lamps out of them.




I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one

They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it
but the transmitters were still vacuum tube.

In fact, when my class finished basic ET school, the guys that were
going on to Loran school were split into 2 groups: those that were
going to stations with vacuum tube timing equipment and those that
were going to stations that had been upgraded. I got lucky. The techs
at LorSta Sylt Germany were upgrading the equipment while I was going
to school in NYC to learn how to work on it. By the time I got to
Sylt the old equipment was in the hallway and the new equipment had
just gone on air.

As it turned out, I enjoyed working on the old transmitters more than
the new timing equipment so I spent most of my time in the
transmitter building, a quarter mile from the main station. At all
Loran stations the transmitter building, which was at the base of the
tower, was always placed as far from the main station as the tower
was high. Even though the towers were guyed to spin straight down if
they failed, they still placed them where they couldn't reach main
station if they ever fell over sideways.

The thing about the old transmitters is that they constantly needed
preventative maintenance and when they broke you actually had to
troubleshoot them instead of just swapping out circuit boards. There
was always something to do and you got to play with high voltage and
real tools. Besides, the station officers were mostly afraid of the
high voltage so they left us alone when we were out there.

My favorite troubleshooting time was when we had to find the cause of
an arc inside the transmitter. The transmitters had metal plates
covering various sections and sometimes they would arc internally
where we couldn't see what was going on.

We would remove the metal plates, turn off the lights in the
transmitter building, and run the power supply up to the normal 15KV
operating voltage. If it didn't arc soon enough for our liking, we'd
run it up to 20KV, wait a little while then run it up to 25KV. At
that voltage, anything that was going to arc usually did - and with
authority. Even though you knew it was coming, it still scared the
crap out of you.

You could attach a circular florescent lamp to a ball cap like it was a
propeller beanie and have enough light to work by when you were near the
transmitter. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/12/2014 7:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

....stuff about transmitters snipped...


You could attach a circular florescent lamp to a ball cap like it was a
propeller beanie and have enough light to work by when you were near the transmitter. ^_^

TDD

We used hold fluorescent tubes near the tower. As you'd slide your hand up
and down the tube, it would light up only above your hand.

It was pretty cool to be able to "move" light.

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:13:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:53:28 -0800, Lab Lover wrote:



On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:20:50 -0600, Unquestionably Confused

wrote:



On 2/11/2014 9:51 PM, Metspitzer wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:43:37 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE

wrote:



My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.



Jimmie



That is an interesting question. What kind of UPS are you talking

about? The ones for computers only last for around an hour.





Jimmie, if you're using the UPS to insert 120V into that lighting

circuit you MUST have a transfer switch or some sort of lockout

otherwise there is no way you can insure that you're not backfeeding the

grid. Then, too, if you're back feeding the grid with that UPS, you can

expect it to run for about 1 millisecond before total discharge g



If you study just how a manual transfer switch (Reliant, etc) works and

interfaces with your circuit breaker panel, you can probably - if you're

really handy and adventuresome - cobble up a one or two circuit

transfer switch. Just remember you want to break a connection before

making a connection.







I wonder why the OP has not revisited his thread?



A UPS, by definition is an isolated supply. In other words, it is constantly

charging it's battery and the load is always running from AC power which is

created by inverting the DC. When the house current is disconnected, the load

continues to operate without interruption (hence the "U" in UPS).



Not necessarilly true. Only "dual conversion" UPS work that way - and

that is just the high end of the UPS spectrum.



I seriously doubt the total power consumed by the OP's whole house LED lighting

is less than 100 watts. There is a fair amount of power wasted and dissipated

as heat in the typical power supplies used for LED lighting. However, he could

have a very small house.

My finished basement runs about 75 watts. The kitchen is about 45 or

50. Each bedroom is 13. The living room can run as high as 55 watts.



We could quite easily manage on less than 100 watts of LED at a time.

Regardless, if the OP were to simply isolate the circuits which power the LEDs

and have nothing else on those circuits, he could easily connect those circuits

to the UPS on a permanent basis. A good 1500 - 2000 W UPS would provide

reasonable protection for the LED power supply components and a fairly decent

run time during a blackout.



Obviously, the above requires a reasonable understanding of residential wiring,

NEC and local codes in order to accomplish this in a safe manner.

And he needs a "hard wire" UPS. Cannot connect a "plug in" UPS

permanently to house wiring and meet code.

He didn't say he wanted to plug it in permanently. He only said he
wants to use the UPS when power goes out. That mode is no different
than using a portable gas generator to power the house which you
can do as long as you have a transfer switch or panel lockout kit
installed together with an inlet. You then use an extension cord
to connect the generator. He could do the same thing with his UPS.

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:19:21 PM UTC-5, Metspitzer wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 19:13:38 -0500, wrote:



On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:53:28 -0800, Lab Lover wrote:



On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 22:20:50 -0600, Unquestionably Confused

wrote:



On 2/11/2014 9:51 PM, Metspitzer wrote:

On Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:43:37 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE

wrote:



My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.



Jimmie



That is an interesting question. What kind of UPS are you talking

about? The ones for computers only last for around an hour.





Jimmie, if you're using the UPS to insert 120V into that lighting

circuit you MUST have a transfer switch or some sort of lockout

otherwise there is no way you can insure that you're not backfeeding the

grid. Then, too, if you're back feeding the grid with that UPS, you can

expect it to run for about 1 millisecond before total discharge g



If you study just how a manual transfer switch (Reliant, etc) works and

interfaces with your circuit breaker panel, you can probably - if you're

really handy and adventuresome - cobble up a one or two circuit

transfer switch. Just remember you want to break a connection before

making a connection.







I wonder why the OP has not revisited his thread?



A UPS, by definition is an isolated supply. In other words, it is constantly

charging it's battery and the load is always running from AC power which is

created by inverting the DC. When the house current is disconnected, the load

continues to operate without interruption (hence the "U" in UPS).



Not necessarilly true. Only "dual conversion" UPS work that way - and

that is just the high end of the UPS spectrum.



I seriously doubt the total power consumed by the OP's whole house LED lighting

is less than 100 watts. There is a fair amount of power wasted and dissipated

as heat in the typical power supplies used for LED lighting. However, he could

have a very small house.

My finished basement runs about 75 watts. The kitchen is about 45 or

50. Each bedroom is 13. The living room can run as high as 55 watts.



We could quite easily manage on less than 100 watts of LED at a time.

Regardless, if the OP were to simply isolate the circuits which power the LEDs

and have nothing else on those circuits, he could easily connect those circuits

to the UPS on a permanent basis. A good 1500 - 2000 W UPS would provide

reasonable protection for the LED power supply components and a fairly decent

run time during a blackout.



Obviously, the above requires a reasonable understanding of residential wiring,

NEC and local codes in order to accomplish this in a safe manner.

And he needs a "hard wire" UPS. Cannot connect a "plug in" UPS

permanently to house wiring and meet code.



Section please?



We have installed industrial shop lights hanging from chain that have

a cord and plug so the fixtures can be replaced/moved. Granted it was

individual lights and not the feed for many lights, but I don't see

any safety issue.


You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?

I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
ie with receptacles, *******izes that and wires it into his
light circuits.

On 02/12/2014 06:04 PM, wrote:
O


Finally someone who knows about Best Power.

I still have one. I worked for a company that sold the units and even
visited the company to attend their training school.

Between the ferroresonant circuit and the hysteresis loop charging,
those things could not be beat.
The only problem with the ferro is poor efficiency. The ferro was
like a little "micro-furnace".

I sold Best UPs equipment for many years.




I was in the industrial battery & charger business and UPS's were a side
line...but back then ferroresonant was considered pretty good efficiency.

I don't know what the present state-of-the-art is for UPS's but as far
as battery chargers...high frequency conversion chargers are now being
used. (Of course they were already using them in Europe 25 years ago)

On 02/12/2014 07:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
philo wrote:
On 02/12/2014 06:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
lb desk lamps out of them.




I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one

They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it but the
transmitters were still vacuum tube.
X



snipped but read


Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran

I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
Google search shows it's still in use.


Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.

A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.


As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!

On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:
My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is
coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater
backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there
approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a
transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and
plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system using a
12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch on the 12 volt
LED lights when the power fails is simple to implement and with a proper
low current fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel
meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and
it and it puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel
measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it can
be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of
them and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw
on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage
wire such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to
wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^

http://www.amazon.com/niceeshop-Inte...+Panel%2FLight
+Lamp+Panel+-+White

http://preview.tinyurl.com/n4r8vhu

TDD

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:11:13 -0700,
wrote:

...snip....
Yes, he could do that, provided it all complies with code.
I suspect the first problem is that it sounds like he already
has a garden variety UPS for use with a PC, etc and they
have outlets, ie they aren't rated or designed to be hardwired.

Your comments of following code, absolutely agree with!

Not because of fear of prosecution etc, but over time these codes have
come about due to some kind of accident. They represent a 'learned'
history of errors, thereofe learn from them and follow code.

Therefore, implement the'function' you describe! sounds like an excellent
idea. Just be careful, go about 'correctly' implementing that function.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:12:27 -0700, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

..snip...

Other than golf cart or marine trolling batteries,
what were effective for power storage?

From memory, the 12 Vdc 4 A-hr Powersonics batteries. Bruno, their chief
engineer, taught me a LOT about battery chemistry and 'proper' charging
and overall care of a battery.

Parbly changed a lot since then. Today, there's not much reason to NOT
stick a chip in each rechargeable battery just to make everything a
'system'.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:25:43 -0700, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

Per RobertMacy:
without wanting to go to an
automobile battery, which wasn't allowed,

Safety?


TRUE! I once learned the hard way about how an automobile battery
generates hydrogen gas during recharge! as in, BOOM! and no more battery,
just acid running down through everything.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:15:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?

I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
ie with receptacles, *******izes that and wires it into his
light circuits.

Let's say the OPs electrical panel is in his open garage. Mount a
1900 box under the panel so it is around 18 inches from the floor.
Connected the box to the panel with a conduit. Disconnect the circuit
that supplies the lights. Run the feed for the (new) receptacles in
the 1900 box to the breaker the lights were on.
http://www.garvinindustries.com/Elec...FShk7AodjAUAog

Now take a 4 ft length of SO cord and run that cord into the side of
the 1900 box. Connect the SO cord to the lighting circuit that came
off the breaker that now feeds the receptacle.

Now, what you have is a feed for the lights that can be disconnected
by unplugging the receptacle. The receptacle is still in perfect
working order.

Plug the UPS and the lighting circuit into the receptacle for 8 hours
until the UPS charges. Then, unplug the lighting receptacle from the
receptacle and plug it into the UPS.

The UPS has the automatic transfer built in. No back feeding. No
jury rigging. Nothing against code I know of.

Anita Snugsnatch

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:35:53 AM UTC-5, Metspitzer wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:15:53 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture

with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed

nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?



I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if

he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you

correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.

I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,

ie with receptacles, *******izes that and wires it into his

light circuits.



Let's say the OPs electrical panel is in his open garage. Mount a

1900 box under the panel so it is around 18 inches from the floor.

Connected the box to the panel with a conduit. Disconnect the circuit

that supplies the lights. Run the feed for the (new) receptacles in

the 1900 box to the breaker the lights were on.

http://www.garvinindustries.com/Elec...FShk7AodjAUAog



Now take a 4 ft length of SO cord and run that cord into the side of

the 1900 box. Connect the SO cord to the lighting circuit that came

off the breaker that now feeds the receptacle.



I don't think you'll find SO cord listed in the NEC as an acceptable
wiring material for branch circuits, so there's that.





Now, what you have is a feed for the lights that can be disconnected

by unplugging the receptacle. The receptacle is still in perfect

working order.



The receptacle that you've now connected to the panel circuit
breaker isn't the problem. That's permissible. It's the branch
circuit that you've disconnected and what you're doing with it
that's the problem.




Plug the UPS and the lighting circuit into the receptacle for 8 hours

until the UPS charges.

So now you have a branch circuit plugged on a cord plugged
into a receptacle, ie not permanently wired. I'm sure that's
a code violation.




Then, unplug the lighting receptacle from the

receptacle and plug it into the UPS.



And there is the next problem. You now have a branch circuit
that's on a cord and the branch circuit protection, ie the
breaker in the panel, is no longer protecting the circuit. You could
take a 15A branch circuit that's wired with 14 gauge and plug it
into a 20A UPS or generator outlet. Or another outlet in the house
that's 20A for that matter, when the alternate power source isn't used.

And I would think it may violate other sections of the code,
for example grounding conductors. I would expect that
you'd find that the grounding for light fixtures, circuits, etc
calls for a continous uninterruped ground connection
back to the main ground at the panel. By inserting a corded plug
that can be unplugged, you're changing what should be permanent
into something that can be unplugged.


The UPS has the automatic transfer built in.

No back feeding. No

jury rigging. Nothing against code I know of.



Taking an existing branch circuit off it's over current
protection, ie breaker, at the panel and putting in on a cord
and plug sure sounds like j rigging to me. And it's clearly against
code. Perhaps Gfre or Bud would like to weigh in on this.

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:16 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message news:a2add6e8-9f45-43be-a90a-

stuff snipped

True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a
typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in
and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.
If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.
But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his
existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.

Oy vay, is it NOT kosher. He asked if there was a way to do with that would
not use a transfer switch AND would be "inspectable." No way, Jose. I got
a whole bunch of Philips' "Stumble Lights" from a wholesaler a few years
back. They are 4 LED units with motion and ambient light detectors that run
off a 9VDC wall wart. To make them work during a power failure I removed
the wall warts and now they are all connected to a deep discharge, 80Ah
wheelchair battery. Because they draw so little power on standby they can
(and have) run for days when the main power has failed.

Fortunately, the long wire runs back to the main battery drop the voltage
almost exactly enough to run at 9VDC. As you walk through the house, even
in a total power failure, the Stumble lights sense motion and light up the
way. They've saved a lot of banged up knees and worse. Installed their
precursor (strings of LED lights) after I forgot I had left a big, black
stereo speaker on the floor and broke my toe on it one night.

Yes, I agree. But from what he's written, I think the intention
is to use a basic UPS that he already has and I doubt it's designed
for being hardwired in.

Agreed. While we can't be exactly sure of his intentions, the parameters he
set (using existing gear, no transfer switch and being code-compliant) seem
impossible to fulfill. At least not without an UPS the size of which I have
never seen and not even then because it would still need a transfer switch.

I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a
transfer switch is coming from. A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
positively impossible. BUT the UPS MUST be installed permanently into
the circuit in order to function - and this requires a UPS designed
for hardwire installation. There are LOTS of them available - but not
at your typical WallMart or consumer electronics store.

You could easily wire in 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on low voltag
e wiring for far less than such a massive UPS would cost. They would be far
more efficient because there would be no losses from taking a battery,
creating 110VAC from it and then powering LEDs that transform that AC back
into DC. As someone else pointed out, backfeeding the grid like that would
not be a good idea nor would the UPS last very long. Jimmie has a good
idea, it just has to be implemented in parallel with the existing lighting,
not using the existing lighting.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:35:53 -0500, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:15:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

You're not seriously trying to compare a hanging light fixture
with a plug/cord to permanenty wiring in a UPS that is not designed
nor rated to be permanently wired into house circuits are you?

I don't see anything wrong from a code or safety standpoint if
he makes it a temporary arrangement, just like you'd do if you
correctly make provisions to connect a portable generator.
I see a lot wrong if he takes a typical UPS that you'd used for a PC,
ie with receptacles, *******izes that and wires it into his
light circuits.

Let's say the OPs electrical panel is in his open garage. Mount a
1900 box under the panel so it is around 18 inches from the floor.
Connected the box to the panel with a conduit. Disconnect the circuit
that supplies the lights. Run the feed for the (new) receptacles in
the 1900 box to the breaker the lights were on.
http://www.garvinindustries.com/Elec...FShk7AodjAUAog

Now take a 4 ft length of SO cord and run that cord into the side of
the 1900 box. Connect the SO cord to the lighting circuit that came
off the breaker that now feeds the receptacle.

Now, what you have is a feed for the lights that can be disconnected
by unplugging the receptacle. The receptacle is still in perfect
working order.

Plug the UPS and the lighting circuit into the receptacle for 8 hours
until the UPS charges. Then, unplug the lighting receptacle from the
receptacle and plug it into the UPS.

The UPS has the automatic transfer built in. No back feeding. No
jury rigging. Nothing against code I know of.

Anita Snugsnatch
You don't know your code. Around here, anyways, permanently installed
house wiring may NOT be connected using a plug. Period. Even getting
a furnace to pass being plugged in can be a challenge.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:24:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:38:16 -0500, "Robert Green"

wrote:



wrote in message news:a2add6e8-9f45-43be-a90a-



stuff snipped



True, but it doesn't have to be used that way. He could have a

typical UPS that you'd use for say a PC, leave it plugged in

and only connect it manually to lights when the power goes out.

If he does that by plugging in some floor lamps, that's cool.

But it sounded like he wants to put plugs on the end of his

existing light circuits in the house, which isn't kosher.



Oy vay, is it NOT kosher. He asked if there was a way to do with that would

not use a transfer switch AND would be "inspectable." No way, Jose. I got

a whole bunch of Philips' "Stumble Lights" from a wholesaler a few years

back. They are 4 LED units with motion and ambient light detectors that run

off a 9VDC wall wart. To make them work during a power failure I removed

the wall warts and now they are all connected to a deep discharge, 80Ah

wheelchair battery. Because they draw so little power on standby they can

(and have) run for days when the main power has failed.



Fortunately, the long wire runs back to the main battery drop the voltage

almost exactly enough to run at 9VDC. As you walk through the house, even

in a total power failure, the Stumble lights sense motion and light up the

way. They've saved a lot of banged up knees and worse. Installed their

precursor (strings of LED lights) after I forgot I had left a big, black

stereo speaker on the floor and broke my toe on it one night.



Yes, I agree. But from what he's written, I think the intention

is to use a basic UPS that he already has and I doubt it's designed

for being hardwired in.



Agreed. While we can't be exactly sure of his intentions, the parameters he

set (using existing gear, no transfer switch and being code-compliant) seem

impossible to fulfill. At least not without an UPS the size of which I have

never seen and not even then because it would still need a transfer switch.



I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a

transfer switch is coming from.

Because that's one code compliant way to use an existing
garden variety UPS like it sounds the OP has, ie the type that has
a plug, cord, and receptacles, like you'd use with a PC.
With a transfer switch or a panel
lockout kit and inlet, you can hook a portable generator up with an
extension cord and it's code compliant. You can do the same with
the UPS he's using for his PC. How practical it all is, and is it
worth it, those are different questions.




A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a

transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer

time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is

IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%

positively impossible. BUT the UPS MUST be installed permanently into

the circuit in order to function - and this requires a UPS designed

for hardwire installation. There are LOTS of them available - but not

at your typical WallMart or consumer electronics store.


Which by all indications in *not* the type he has and wants to use.
If he wants to buy one that will be hardwired in, then yes, I agree
he could find one.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than

100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light

circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that is

coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater

backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are there

approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a

transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and

plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.



Jimmie



The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system using a

12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch on the 12 volt

LED lights when the power fails is simple to implement and with a proper

low current fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel

meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and

it and it puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel

measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it can

be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of

them and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw

on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage

wire such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to

wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^



I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated for use
in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is NEC that
applies to those types of installations too.

On 2/13/2014 6:11 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/12/2014 7:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

...stuff about transmitters snipped...


You could attach a circular florescent lamp to a ball cap like it
was a propeller beanie and have enough light to work by when you
were near the transmitter. ^_^

TDD

We used hold fluorescent tubes near the tower. As you'd slide your
hand up and down the tube, it would light up only above your hand.

It was pretty cool to be able to "move" light.

I used to check the output of the two way radios I was working on by
holding a fluorescent tube near or touching the contacts to the antenna.
CB radio rigs with illegal linear amps would really light one up. ^_^

TDD

philo wrote:
On 02/12/2014 07:17 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
philo wrote:
On 02/12/2014 06:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/12/2014 8:03 AM, philo wrote:

That's weird, my UPS system will power my laptop for about a year or so.


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...86645054_n.jpg

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/tubes.jpg

They keep trying to upgrade my processor.

And your UPS would run this for at least TWO years.
http://www.wpclipart.com/computer/PC...cuum_tubes.png

Who needs those wimpy arse vacuum tubes. A real man works with these...

http://www.qsl.net/oz1dku/loran%20PA%20tubes.jpg

These are water-cooled PA tubes for Loran transmitters. Filament current
300A at 12.7V. Plate voltage 15,000 VDC. Output power 1.5MW.

When they went bad we hollowed them out, wired them for 120AC and made 25
lb desk lamps out of them.




I guess they didn't come up with a transistor to replace that one

They did, but it was many years after I worked on them. The timing
equipment had _just_ gone solid state when I started working on it but the
transmitters were still vacuum tube.
X



snipped but read


Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran

I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
Google search shows it's still in use.


Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.

A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.


As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!

There's not near as much Loran left as there used to be. Here's a video of
what happened to the tower I used to hang out under at LorSta Port
Clarence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak

On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less
than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my
light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm
that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have
gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about.
Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not
involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this
with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and
plug it into the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system
using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch
on the 12 volt LED lights when the power fails is simple to
implement and with a proper low current fuse is quite safe. I
bought a little 48 LED light panel meant to replace an automobile
dome light from Amazon to play with and it and it puts out a
surprising amount of light. The LED panel measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8"
and has double stick foam on the back so it can be mounted easily.
I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of them and light
up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw on it but
I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage wire
such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to
wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^


I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated for use
in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is NEC that
applies to those types of installations too.

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!
Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing
voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by the
12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is rated for
up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting, measure the
current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will
prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD

On 02/13/2014 03:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
phi


Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran

I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
Google search shows it's still in use.


Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.

A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.


As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!

There's not near as much Loran left as there used to be. Here's a video of
what happened to the tower I used to hang out under at LorSta Port
Clarence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak



Nice way to take down a tower.

philo wrote:
On 02/13/2014 03:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
phi


Back in the 60's when I first got my ham ticket we'd always hear Loran

I figured that now with GPS it would no longer be used, but a quick
Google search shows it's still in use.


Sure liked those old days of vacuum tubes.

A friend of mine picked up a couple of WW-II radar sets and converted
them to 1296 mhz transceivers.
In 1965 that was quite an advanced project.


As to finding high-voltage arc-overs.
I still recall watching TV at a friend's house and him telling me that
his dad had to put a glass ash tray inside to prevent arcing over!

There's not near as much Loran left as there used to be. Here's a video of
what happened to the tower I used to hang out under at LorSta Port
Clarence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u92YYdy6Lak



Nice way to take down a tower.

Yep. The T building that they "missed" is where I spent countless hours
during my year there. There was a 1/4 mile enclosed walkway from the
station to the T building. Call it an above ground tunnel. We had a couple
of old bicycles with big baskets as wide as the handlebars for carrying
parts to and from. There were a few lights along the wall so it wasn't
pitch black in the tunnel. Dark, but not pitch black.

One day lightening struck the tower and started a fire in the antenna
coupler inside the building. It also killed power to the building which
took out the lights in the tunnel. There was an small emergency light at
each end of the tunnel but for the most part the rest of the tunnel was now
pitch black.

When the alarm went off, being young, foolish and dedicated, I jumped on
one of the bicycles and headed for the T building down the long dark
tunnel. Those were my babies and I had to save them. Since I couldn't see
anything except for the faint light at the end of the tunnel, I leaned the
big basket against the ice covered wall and pedaled as fast as I could. I
had walked the tunnel so many times that I knew there was nothing to hit so
I just kept peddling as the light faded from behind me and kept going until
the light at the other end allowed me to see again.

I made it to building, grabbed a fire extinguisher from the front room,
felt the door to the transmitter room for heat, opened it slowly, went in
and emptied the CO2 into the antenna coupler. My heart sank as I saw the
burnt mass of copper tubing and ceramic resistors. Antenna couplers
_never_ go bad, so no one keeps a spare on site. I knew we would be off air
for at least a week. If a station is off air for more than one minute per
month, you have ruined a "perfect month". We had just gotten an award for 6
straight months of zero off air time. The run was now over...big time.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:03:17 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less
than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my
light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm
that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have
gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about.
Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not
involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this
with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and
plug it into the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system
using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch
on the 12 volt LED lights when the power fails is simple to
implement and with a proper low current fuse is quite safe. I
bought a little 48 LED light panel meant to replace an automobile
dome light from Amazon to play with and it and it puts out a
surprising amount of light. The LED panel measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8"
and has double stick foam on the back so it can be mounted easily.
I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of them and light
up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw on it but
I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage wire
such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to
wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^


I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated for use
in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is NEC that
applies to those types of installations too.

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!
Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing
voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by the
12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is rated for
up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting, measure the
current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will
prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD
IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can NOT do
is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire because that
requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that is only rated for
2.3 amps for power transmission.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:03:17 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas

wrote:

On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:



My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less

than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my

light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm

that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have

gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about.

Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not

involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking about doing this

with outlets and plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and

plug it into the UPS.



Jimmie



The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system

using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to switch

on the 12 volt LED lights when the power fails is simple to

implement and with a proper low current fuse is quite safe. I

bought a little 48 LED light panel meant to replace an automobile

dome light from Amazon to play with and it and it puts out a

surprising amount of light. The LED panel measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8"

and has double stick foam on the back so it can be mounted easily.

I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of them and light

up a room very well. I haven't measured the current draw on it but

I found it is quite bright off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage wire

such as telephone wire installed with a stapler could be used to

wire rooms for emergency light using the little modules. ^_^





I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated for use

in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is NEC that

applies to those types of installations too.



Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!

Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing

voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by the

12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is rated for

up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting, measure the

current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will

prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O



TDD

I didn't say he couldn't do it. I just said that NEC applies to
low voltage circuits run within a house too, and that I have doubts
that using telephone wire to power lights will meet code. Whether it's
DIY or done by an electrician code still applies. If he wants to
ignore that, he's free to do so.

On 2/13/2014 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:03:17 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring
Dufas wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is
less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to
connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies
like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat
or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in
the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of
connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer
switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and
plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into
the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system
using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to
switch on the 12 volt LED lights when the power fails is simple
to implement and with a proper low current fuse is quite safe.
I bought a little 48 LED light panel meant to replace an
automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and it and it
puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel measures
1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it
can be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel
using 4 to 6of them and light up a room very well. I haven't
measured the current draw on it but I found it is quite bright
off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage wire such as telephone wire
installed with a stapler could be used to wire rooms for
emergency light using the little modules. ^_^


I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated
for use in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is
NEC that applies to those types of installations too.

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!
Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing
voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by
the 12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is
rated for up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting,
measure the current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the
wiring which will prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD
IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can NOT do
is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire because that
requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that is only rated for
2.3 amps for power transmission.

Forgive me for not remembering that others will not take into
consideration those things I do without thinking. Those little panels
with 48 SMD LED's draw very little current and like any other electrical
project I've ever done, I will figure in the current draw of the project
before I install anything. I haven't measured the current draw of the
little SMD LED light panels but I'm sure it's not much at all.

TDD

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:32:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:03:17 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring
Dufas wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is
less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to
connect my light circuits to the UPS during emergencies
like this ice storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat
or the fridge, I have gas heater backup and not enough in
the fridge to worry about. Are there approved ways of
connecting in the UPS that does not involve adding a transfer
switch. I was thinking about doing this with outlets and
plugs so I could unplug the light circuit and plug it into
the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting system
using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A relay to
switch on the 12 volt LED lights when the power fails is simple
to implement and with a proper low current fuse is quite safe.
I bought a little 48 LED light panel meant to replace an
automobile dome light from Amazon to play with and it and it
puts out a surprising amount of light. The LED panel measures
1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has double stick foam on the back so it
can be mounted easily. I imagine you can make your own panel
using 4 to 6of them and light up a room very well. I haven't
measured the current draw on it but I found it is quite bright
off a 9 volt battery. Low voltage wire such as telephone wire
installed with a stapler could be used to wire rooms for
emergency light using the little modules. ^_^


I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not rated
for use in a low voltage lighting system in a house. There is
NEC that applies to those types of installations too.

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the Smithsonian!
Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery and 90vac ringing
voltage. It's not high current and neither is the power required by
the 12vdc LED modules. The OP could use thermostat wire which is
rated for up to 300 volts. He can install his low voltage lighting,
measure the current draw then install a proper fuse to protect the
wiring which will prevent the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD
IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can NOT do
is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire because that
requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that is only rated for
2.3 amps for power transmission.

Forgive me for not remembering that others will not take into
consideration those things I do without thinking. Those little panels
with 48 SMD LED's draw very little current and like any other electrical
project I've ever done, I will figure in the current draw of the project
before I install anything. I haven't measured the current draw of the
little SMD LED light panels but I'm sure it's not much at all.

TDD
One that I installed in my brother's RV was 3 watts. That's getting
awfully close to the limit on the bell wire. ANd PHONE wire is
generally 22 guage, not 18 - so NO. You cannot use bell wire to wire a
house for low voltage lighting...

On 2/12/2014 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
wrote:

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that
is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas
heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are
there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve
adding a transfer switch.
__________________________________________________ ________________________



Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low
voltage power. Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a
dedicated circuit that's always powered by a large (costly) deep
discharge battery on a constant charging circuit. If you use a car
battery you'll severely shorten its life if you deeply discharge it
more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of doing
what you want to do and having it approved by an inspector. But
it is an interesting idea and probably will be the way things are
done 50 years from now.

SH

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this application
that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

It strikes me as kind of odd to use a UPS unit to convert 12-24vdc into
120vac to power low current LED lights when the power loss converting DC
to AC with the UPS unit is so wasteful. I would consider a 12vdc
lighting. All the new emergency exit lights I see are LED units so the
OP could get LED table lamps that plug into wall outlets which would
come on automatically when the power went out. Very simple plug and play
which would be a lot less complicated than any rewiring. ^_^

TDD

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:08:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
wrote:

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less than
100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my light
circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice storm that
is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas
heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are
there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does not involve
adding a transfer switch.
__________________________________________________ ________________________



Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low
voltage power. Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on a
dedicated circuit that's always powered by a large (costly) deep
discharge battery on a constant charging circuit. If you use a car
battery you'll severely shorten its life if you deeply discharge it
more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of doing
what you want to do and having it approved by an inspector. But
it is an interesting idea and probably will be the way things are
done 50 years from now.

SH

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this application
that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

It strikes me as kind of odd to use a UPS unit to convert 12-24vdc into
120vac to power low current LED lights when the power loss converting DC
to AC with the UPS unit is so wasteful. I would consider a 12vdc
lighting. All the new emergency exit lights I see are LED units so the
OP could get LED table lamps that plug into wall outlets which would
come on automatically when the power went out. Very simple plug and play
which would be a lot less complicated than any rewiring. ^_^

TDD
Under NORMAL USE a standby UPS is NOT converting DC to AC and turning
it back into AC. That only happens with "dual conversion" or "online"
UPS units. A standby UPS is, in effect, an automatic transfer switch,
a battery charger, and an inverter. When there is power on the line
in, it transfers (connects) directly to the line out.
When the line in fails, the automatic transfer device shuts off the
connection between line in and line out, pawers up the inverter, and
connects the inverter output to the line out..

When line power resumes, the unit transfers from inverter output to
line power, shuts off the inverter, and recharges the battery.
This is how better than 90% of "consumer grade" UPS units work - and
all "standby lighting" ups units. Dual Conversion UPS units are more
expensive, less common, and less efficient - but classify as a
seperately derived power source and TOTALLY decouple from line noise,
harmonics, etc that can upset some very sensitive equipment.

And any UPS of ANY size runs on 36 volts or more - most on 48 and 60
volts.

On 2/13/2014 7:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:08:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
wrote:

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less
than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my
light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice
storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge,
I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry
about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
does not involve adding a transfer switch.
__________________________________________________ ________________________





Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low
voltage power. Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on
a dedicated circuit that's always powered by a large (costly)
deep discharge battery on a constant charging circuit. If you
use a car battery you'll severely shorten its life if you
deeply discharge it more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of
doing what you want to do and having it approved by an
inspector. But it is an interesting idea and probably will be
the way things are done 50 years from now.

SH

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this
application that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

It strikes me as kind of odd to use a UPS unit to convert 12-24vdc
into 120vac to power low current LED lights when the power loss
converting DC to AC with the UPS unit is so wasteful. I would
consider a 12vdc lighting. All the new emergency exit lights I see
are LED units so the OP could get LED table lamps that plug into
wall outlets which would come on automatically when the power went
out. Very simple plug and play which would be a lot less
complicated than any rewiring. ^_^

TDD
Under NORMAL USE a standby UPS is NOT converting DC to AC and
turning it back into AC. That only happens with "dual conversion" or
"online" UPS units. A standby UPS is, in effect, an automatic
transfer switch, a battery charger, and an inverter. When there is
power on the line in, it transfers (connects) directly to the line
out. When the line in fails, the automatic transfer device shuts off
the connection between line in and line out, pawers up the inverter,
and connects the inverter output to the line out..

When line power resumes, the unit transfers from inverter output to
line power, shuts off the inverter, and recharges the battery. This
is how better than 90% of "consumer grade" UPS units work - and all
"standby lighting" ups units. Dual Conversion UPS units are more
expensive, less common, and less efficient - but classify as a
seperately derived power source and TOTALLY decouple from line
noise, harmonics, etc that can upset some very sensitive equipment.

And any UPS of ANY size runs on 36 volts or more - most on 48 and 60
volts.

I rescue and repair UPS units. I have a 1kw unit on the floor behind me
and a 750w unit on the counter to my left. Both units have two 12v AGM
batteries in series internally and an external connector for extra 24v
battery packs. I have dealt with UPS systems that were the size of a
bedroom closet and filled with a dozen batteries of the size one would
find under the hood of an automobile. The UPS units I possess put out a
modified square wave which computers and such equipment find acceptable.
I've only had to install true sine wave UPS units to power certain phone
systems. ^_^

TDD

On 2/13/2014 6:44 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:32:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 4:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:03:17 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring
Dufas wrote:
On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on
is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able
to connect my light circuits to the UPS during
emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not
worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater
backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are
there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does
not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking
about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug
the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.

Jimmie

The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting
system using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A
relay to switch on the 12 volt LED lights when the power
fails is simple to implement and with a proper low current
fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel
meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to
play with and it and it puts out a surprising amount of
light. The LED panel measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has
double stick foam on the back so it can be mounted easily.
I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of them
and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the
current draw on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9
volt battery. Low voltage wire such as telephone wire
installed with a stapler could be used to wire rooms for
emergency light using the little modules. ^_^


I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not
rated for use in a low voltage lighting system in a house.
There is NEC that applies to those types of installations
too.

Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the
Smithsonian! Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery
and 90vac ringing voltage. It's not high current and neither is
the power required by the 12vdc LED modules. The OP could use
thermostat wire which is rated for up to 300 volts. He can
install his low voltage lighting, measure the current draw then
install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will prevent
the magic smoke from escaping. o_O

TDD
IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can
NOT do is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire
because that requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that
is only rated for 2.3 amps for power transmission.

Forgive me for not remembering that others will not take into
consideration those things I do without thinking. Those little
panels with 48 SMD LED's draw very little current and like any
other electrical project I've ever done, I will figure in the
current draw of the project before I install anything. I haven't
measured the current draw of the little SMD LED light panels but
I'm sure it's not much at all.

TDD
One that I installed in my brother's RV was 3 watts. That's getting
awfully close to the limit on the bell wire. ANd PHONE wire is
generally 22 guage, not 18 - so NO. You cannot use bell wire to wire
a house for low voltage lighting...

Then use landscape lighting wire or 18-16AMW stranded low voltage alarm
or sound system cable. An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low voltage
cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power supply used for
CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not rocket surgery. GEEZ!

TDD

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/13/2014 6:44 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 17:32:02 -0600, The Daring Dufas

wrote:



On 2/13/2014 4:03 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 15:03:17 -0600, The Daring Dufas

wrote:



On 2/13/2014 1:25 PM, wrote:

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:55:12 AM UTC-5, The Daring

Dufas wrote:

On 2/11/2014 9:43 PM, JIMMIE wrote:



My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on

is less than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able

to connect my light circuits to the UPS during

emergencies like this ice storm that is coming up. Not

worried about heat or the fridge, I have gas heater

backup and not enough in the fridge to worry about. Are

there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that does

not involve adding a transfer switch. I was thinking

about doing this with outlets and plugs so I could unplug

the light circuit and plug it into the UPS.



Jimmie



The easiest thing to do is to run a low voltage lighting

system using a 12vdc power system and battery charger. A

relay to switch on the 12 volt LED lights when the power

fails is simple to implement and with a proper low current

fuse is quite safe. I bought a little 48 LED light panel

meant to replace an automobile dome light from Amazon to

play with and it and it puts out a surprising amount of

light. The LED panel measures 1-1/2" X 2-5/8" and has

double stick foam on the back so it can be mounted easily.

I imagine you can make your own panel using 4 to 6of them

and light up a room very well. I haven't measured the

current draw on it but I found it is quite bright off a 9

volt battery. Low voltage wire such as telephone wire

installed with a stapler could be used to wire rooms for

emergency light using the little modules. ^_^





I think you'll find that telephone wire is probably not

rated for use in a low voltage lighting system in a house.

There is NEC that applies to those types of installations

too.



Jesus H Christopher! It's a DIY project not wiring the

Smithsonian! Telephone system cable caries 48vdc talk battery

and 90vac ringing voltage. It's not high current and neither is

the power required by the 12vdc LED modules. The OP could use

thermostat wire which is rated for up to 300 volts. He can

install his low voltage lighting, measure the current draw then

install a proper fuse to protect the wiring which will prevent

the magic smoke from escaping. o_O



TDD

IF he wires it correctly he can use bell wire. But what he can

NOT do is wire 100 watts of LED on a single run of bell wire

because that requires almost 10 amps of current - on a wire that

is only rated for 2.3 amps for power transmission.



Forgive me for not remembering that others will not take into

consideration those things I do without thinking. Those little

panels with 48 SMD LED's draw very little current and like any

other electrical project I've ever done, I will figure in the

current draw of the project before I install anything. I haven't

measured the current draw of the little SMD LED light panels but

I'm sure it's not much at all.



TDD

One that I installed in my brother's RV was 3 watts. That's getting

awfully close to the limit on the bell wire. ANd PHONE wire is

generally 22 guage, not 18 - so NO. You cannot use bell wire to wire

a house for low voltage lighting...



Then use landscape lighting wire or 18-16AMW stranded low voltage alarm

or sound system cable.

Again, he can do whatever he pleases, but landscape lighting wire
is most likely not rated for use inside a building. What you
proposed he wire up is a Class 1 low voltage circuit and it's
covered under NEC.



An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV

cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low voltage

cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power supply used for

CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not rocket surgery. GEEZ!



TDD

It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed
instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing
it right? As an example to the practical problems you're left
with, if someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing
phone wire used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he
has a problem that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.

wrote in message

stuff snipped

I cannot for the life of me figure out where the fixation on a
transfer switch is coming from. A UPS by it's very DESIGN has a
transfer switch built in. Standby UPS even have a spec for "transfer
time" - the time it takes to switch from line to inverter - and it is
IMPOSSIBLE for the inverter to backfeed the line. Absolutely, 100%
positively impossible.

Here's a scenario where the impossible becomes lethal. The power goes out.
Someone reading this decides to create a male to male power cord. He plugs
one end into his UPS's powered outlet and the other end into the outlet
nearest his table lamp. The table lamp lights up! Just what the OP wants.
Other LED lamps in the house will also probably light up until the fridge or
the furnace kicks on or the utility power comes back on. Not sure what
happens then.

I agree with your observation, generally - no one is likely to connect the
UPS to the grid in a way that will cause energization of the grid outside
the home. But never underestimate the ingenuity of someone trying to
accomplish a goal. It's very simple to do with two extension cords,.a wire
cutter and some wire nuts. In normal UPS operation, I agree, backfeeding is
not very likely, but it's not impossible.

The method I described would actually work pretty well if all circuits but
the ones powering the LED lamps were turned off at the breaker panel along
with the main breaker. But if that main breaker is ON then 110VAC is likely
traveling outside the home.

--
Bobby G.

On 2/14/2014 7:11 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas


An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV
cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low
voltage cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power
supply used for CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not
rocket surgery. GEEZ!

TDD

It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed
instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing it
right? As an example to the practical problems you're left with, if
someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing phone wire
used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he has a problem
that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.

I've installed both power and low voltage wiring in homes and businesses
and never failed an inspection. Of course, because I was doing it
professionally, most if not all of my wiring was concealed. All the wire
met code for the circuits carrying low voltage even if it was two pair
phone wire. I wired a lot of systems with beige or gray two pair phone
wire and never had a problem with an inspection. The only consideration
is the amount of current the wires will carry. All of the manufactured
low voltage devices I've installed had a label with the amount of
current each device used. If I installed home made DIY low voltage LED
lights, I'm going to measure the current draw and run low voltage wiring
that will carry the load, even phone wire. You keep making it way too
complicated. o_O

TDD

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:28:57 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/13/2014 7:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:08:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/12/2014 6:31 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:32:43 -0500, "Sherlock.Homes"
wrote:

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

My house lighting is all LED total wattage with all on is less
than 100 watts. What I want to do is to be able to connect my
light circuits to the UPS during emergencies like this ice
storm that is coming up. Not worried about heat or the fridge,
I have gas heater backup and not enough in the fridge to worry
about. Are there approved ways of connecting in the UPS that
does not involve adding a transfer switch.
__________________________________________________ ________________________





Nope - no approved ways I know of. Lots of jury-rigged possibilities
though. The only way to evade the NEC on this is to use low
voltage power. Install 12VDC LED lights throughout the house on
a dedicated circuit that's always powered by a large (costly)
deep discharge battery on a constant charging circuit. If you
use a car battery you'll severely shorten its life if you
deeply discharge it more than a few times.

If these are 110VAC fixtures then there's very little hope of
doing what you want to do and having it approved by an
inspector. But it is an interesting idea and probably will be
the way things are done 50 years from now.

SH

Not true. There are UPS units designed for exactly this
application that are hardwired into the house circuitry.

It strikes me as kind of odd to use a UPS unit to convert 12-24vdc
into 120vac to power low current LED lights when the power loss
converting DC to AC with the UPS unit is so wasteful. I would
consider a 12vdc lighting. All the new emergency exit lights I see
are LED units so the OP could get LED table lamps that plug into
wall outlets which would come on automatically when the power went
out. Very simple plug and play which would be a lot less
complicated than any rewiring. ^_^

TDD
Under NORMAL USE a standby UPS is NOT converting DC to AC and
turning it back into AC. That only happens with "dual conversion" or
"online" UPS units. A standby UPS is, in effect, an automatic
transfer switch, a battery charger, and an inverter. When there is
power on the line in, it transfers (connects) directly to the line
out. When the line in fails, the automatic transfer device shuts off
the connection between line in and line out, pawers up the inverter,
and connects the inverter output to the line out..

When line power resumes, the unit transfers from inverter output to
line power, shuts off the inverter, and recharges the battery. This
is how better than 90% of "consumer grade" UPS units work - and all
"standby lighting" ups units. Dual Conversion UPS units are more
expensive, less common, and less efficient - but classify as a
seperately derived power source and TOTALLY decouple from line
noise, harmonics, etc that can upset some very sensitive equipment.

And any UPS of ANY size runs on 36 volts or more - most on 48 and 60
volts.

I rescue and repair UPS units. I have a 1kw unit on the floor behind me
and a 750w unit on the counter to my left. Both units have two 12v AGM
batteries in series internally and an external connector for extra 24v
battery packs. I have dealt with UPS systems that were the size of a
bedroom closet and filled with a dozen batteries of the size one would
find under the hood of an automobile. The UPS units I possess put out a
modified square wave which computers and such equipment find acceptable.
I've only had to install true sine wave UPS units to power certain phone
systems. ^_^

TDD
You misunderstood me. By "of any size" I meant any large UPS - not
"all UPSs.. The little cheap crap runs on 12 volts. The intermediates
run on 24. 1000 watts and up GENERALLY run on higher voltage.
My Powerware Presige 1000 units rin on 48 and 60 volts. So do their
750 watt units.

And as far as "modified square wave" and "quasi sine wave" it's
semantics. How many steps for quasi sine, and how few for modified
square? True sine is different (much more costly) technology - which,
as you note, is generally not required - certainly not for a lighting
unit. It's one of those "cabinet style" units the OP needs to install
for lighting because they have no plugs. But he does not need the dual
conversion that MOST of those cabinet units run.

On Friday, February 14, 2014 12:13:25 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/14/2014 7:11 AM, wrote:

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, The Daring Dufas





An alternative is what I do when installing CCTV

cameras. I install a central 12vdc power supply and separate low

voltage cables to each camera. A multi terminal central power

supply used for CCTV cameras would be a good choice. It's not

rocket surgery. GEEZ!



TDD



It's not rocket surgery, but that doesn't mean that there aren't

codes that are supposed to be followed. Why do it half-assed

instead of reading the code, using the right materials, and doing it

right? As an example to the practical problems you're left with, if

someday he goes to sell the house, an inspector seeing phone wire

used for low voltage lighting may flag it. Then he has a problem

that he could have easily avoided by doing it right.



I've installed both power and low voltage wiring in homes and businesses

and never failed an inspection. Of course, because I was doing it

professionally, most if not all of my wiring was concealed. All the wire

met code for the circuits carrying low voltage even if it was two pair

phone wire.

From my reading of the code, the system you recommended is a Class 1
low voltage circuit. I believe you proposed using a 12V battery
kept charged with a battery charger to power the LED lights which
would be installed in the house. Clearly phone wire is not code compliant
for that application. May an inspector pass it anyway? Maybe in
some places and maybe not in others. The enforcement level probably
isn't going to be the same in a townhouse in NYC as it is in a small
town in the Midwest
All I'm saying is that there are NEC codes for this type of thing
and in my reading of them, you can't use phone wire. It's not
even clear what phone wire means anymore, as it's usually referred to
today as Cat5. My reading of the code says the minimum allowed is
18 gauge.



I wired a lot of systems with beige or gray two pair phone

wire and never had a problem with an inspection. The only consideration

is the amount of current the wires will carry.

It's not just a matter of the current the wires will carry. Read Article 725 of NEC on what specific cable types are allowed. It's like saying you can
use any wire for 120V circuits, all that matters is the current carrying capability.



All of the manufactured

low voltage devices I've installed had a label with the amount of

current each device used. If I installed home made DIY low voltage LED

lights, I'm going to measure the current draw and run low voltage wiring

that will carry the load, even phone wire. You keep making it way too

complicated. o_O



TDD

It's not complicated to follow code and do it right.
Is it that complicated to use the proper 18 gauge wire? In my
reading of the code, that's the minimum wire size allowed for
what you proposed. Have you read Articles 720, 725?