I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.
If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.

The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?

What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?

If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I
have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?


*The ground can also be green.



Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.


The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?


*Wrong. The resistance in the load could affect the voltage reading. On a
Wiggy it may show up as just the little light coming on, but not the
solenoid kicking in.



What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?


*Yes if there is no power on the load.

If there is only one two wire cable with ground going into the switch box,
the white wire is likely to be the line and the black would be the load. If
you have more than one cable in the box with the white wires spliced
together, then you are most likely to have a neutral.



If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

On Friday, December 13, 2013 1:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The

switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told

this by an electrician.

I'm trying to understand - you're saying that the hot wire was run to the switch, but not the neutral? So the switch box only has one wire in it? Why would anyone do that?

Most hot wires in a switch box should be black (with some exceptions); neutrals always white, and the ground either bare or green.

On 12/13/2013 08:42 AM, TimR wrote:
On Friday, December 13, 2013 1:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:
I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work.
The

switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was
told

this by an electrician.

I'm trying to understand - you're saying that the hot wire was run to
the switch, but not the neutral? So the switch box only has one wire
in it? Why would anyone do that?

Most hot wires in a switch box should be black (with some
exceptions); neutrals always white, and the ground either bare or
green.


Could easily be a "switch leg" where the feed cable goes directly to the
switch box and then a 2 wire plus ground cable is dropped to the switch
box. The white in the switch leg should be marked with black or red
tape to indicate that it is not being used as a neutral. Perfectly code
compliant up until the latest revision.

To provide a neutral in this situation the switch leg would have to be
repulled with 3 wire plus ground cable. Also boxes should be
re-evaluated for box fill, one or both may need to be replaced with deep
boxes.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:15:52 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.

The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?

What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?

If the power switch is off. If it's on, the voltage would be 117
or so on a regular lightbulb/fan etc. circuit.

Make a drawing of all this and stare at for 5 or 10 minutes total.
Use the same technique for more complicated situations as you
progress. For my Toyota car, I've been staring at the manual for
about 20 hours so far, and I think I understand about all that I can.
If it were an American car, there woudl be more info and a better
manual and 10 hours might be enough.

If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

Neither did I.

On 12/13/2013 09:44 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:15:52 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.

The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?

What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?

If the power switch is off. If it's on, the voltage would be 117
or so on a regular lightbulb/fan etc. circuit.

Make a drawing of all this and stare at for 5 or 10 minutes total.
Use the same technique for more complicated situations as you
progress. For my Toyota car, I've been staring at the manual for
about 20 hours so far, and I think I understand about all that I can.
If it were an American car, there woudl be more info and a better
manual and 10 hours might be enough.

If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

Neither did I.


I think Tony made a couple assumptions, but they make sense to me...

the one place in a house that I've used or wanted to use a "programmable
switch" was for the bathroom vent fan, to get all the steamy air out
after a hot shower, but e.g. with a regular switch you either turn it
off when you leave for work or else leave the fan running all day. What
you really want in that situation is a timer, where it will run for say
two hours after you turn it on then shut off.

*IF* that is the OP's situation, a spring timer is a perfectly good
solution and easier than repulling wire to use her device of choice. If
it's something else, probably not so much.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/13/2013 12:31 AM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks



All you have to do is look in the junction box.

There should be one green or bare wire going from the junction box to
the metal mounting tab of your switch. That is the /ground/ and though
it is not energized /cannot/ be used as neutral.


Next, there will be one wire going to each terminal of the switch.


If there is a white wire in the junction box that is taped off...or
perhaps runs to some other circuit...then that is your neutral wire.
If there are no other wires in the box (or wires that are anything other
than white) then there is /no/ neutral.


NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:42:13 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Friday, December 13, 2013 1:31:04 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The



switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told



this by an electrician.



I'm trying to understand - you're saying that the hot wire was run to the switch, but not the neutral? So the switch box only has one wire in it? Why would anyone do that?



Noi, the switch would have both a hot wire and the wire going to the
light/load connected to it. The neutral would never be connected to
the switch. Most times, around here at least, the way the wiring is
run, the box has a neutral in it anyway. But until very recently, there
was no code reqt to have a neutral in the switch location.




Most hot wires in a switch box should be black (with some exceptions); neutrals always white, and the ground either bare or green.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message ...
I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I
have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?


*The ground can also be green.



Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.


The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?


*Wrong. The resistance in the load could affect the voltage reading. On a
Wiggy it may show up as just the little light coming on, but not the
solenoid kicking in.



What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?


*Yes if there is no power on the load.

If there is only one two wire cable with ground going into the switch box,
the white wire is likely to be the line and the black would be the load. If
you have more than one cable in the box with the white wires spliced
together, then you are most likely to have a neutral.



If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.



Um, sort of correct. The voltage between line and load would only show a
voltage drop. The actual voltage present would not be measured. The voltage
drop reading should be very miniscule. If not, serious issues are at hand.

The difference between load side of line and neutral *might* be different than
between line and neutral at service entry. Voltage drop and conductor/termination
resistance comes into play with this. I don't recall the allowable percentage,
but somewhere along 5-10% max of premise voltage for circuit, or nominal voltage
rating of device being powered. Most devices have an acceptable voltage range.
However, anything approaching this in a residential setting is cause for concern
due to short runs not providing enough conductor resistance, therefore leading
one to suspect improper/corroded terminations in the circuit.

This is a generalization, of course.

wrote in message ...


Noi, the switch would have both a hot wire and the wire going to the
light/load connected to it. The neutral would never be connected to
the switch. Most times, around here at least, the way the wiring is
run, the box has a neutral in it anyway. But until very recently, there
was no code reqt to have a neutral in the switch location.


Lazy electricians and cost cutting measures. The difference between sourcing
or sinking a load. These can confuse a novice. Proper application would
be that the neutral should pass through the j-box the switch is located in
with the hot being switched before continuing on to the switched device.
Preferable should be a more "proper" term, I suppose.

Usually the black tape on white wire is to denote a switched hot that is used
in the feed of a 3-way were both conductors in the romex are hots. For
a normal switch this is not necessary.

I realize this is not a perfect world and many will cut whatever corner that is
allowed to facilitate a "legal" installation however funky this may be. Most times
the dollar wins out over intuitive installation. People forget that what the
code states is "what is allowed", not what is preferred or is better.

Many only care about the "it passed" nature of the trade, not the quality and
down the road maintenance of the installation.

On Friday, 13 December 2013 13:00:18 UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

Lazy electricians and cost cutting measures. The difference between sourcing
or sinking a load. These can confuse a novice. Proper application would
be that the neutral should pass through the j-box the switch is located in
with the hot being switched before continuing on to the switched device.
Preferable should be a more "proper" term, I suppose.

Why exactly are switch legs un-preferable?

Chip C
Toronto

On 12/13/2013 03:58 PM, Chip C wrote:


Why exactly are switch legs un-preferable?


A lot of line-powered switches require it.

For example, my Insteon switch modules require a tiny amount of power to listen for remote commands.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:06:30 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/13/2013 09:44 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:15:52 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.

The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?

What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?

If the power switch is off. If it's on, the voltage would be 117
or so on a regular lightbulb/fan etc. circuit.

Make a drawing of all this and stare at for 5 or 10 minutes total.
Use the same technique for more complicated situations as you
progress. For my Toyota car, I've been staring at the manual for
about 20 hours so far, and I think I understand about all that I can.
If it were an American car, there woudl be more info and a better
manual and 10 hours might be enough.

If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

Neither did I.


I think Tony made a couple assumptions, but they make sense to me...

the one place in a house that I've used or wanted to use a "programmable
switch" was for the bathroom vent fan, to get all the steamy air out
after a hot shower, but e.g. with a regular switch you either turn it
off when you leave for work or else leave the fan running all day. What
you really want in that situation is a timer, where it will run for say
two hours after you turn it on then shut off.

*IF* that is the OP's situation, a spring timer is a perfectly good
solution and easier than repulling wire to use her device of choice. If
it's something else, probably not so much.

nate
Occupancy switches - turn a light on when someone enters, and turns
the light off after you leave - requires a neutral on some, a ground
on others.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:16:28 -0600, philo* wrote:

NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

Why is black tape used on a white wire (some cases)? It indicates
something, but I don't know what (none electrician).

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:00:18 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Usually the black tape on white wire is to denote a switched hot that is used
in the feed of a 3-way were both conductors in the romex are hots. For
a normal switch this is not necessary.

I just asked about the use of black tape on a white wire. It was a 3-
way IIRC.

I did not turn off a breaker and got my azz zapped (sue me later).

Turn the breakers OFF - note to self, regardless of what you do

On 12/13/2013 05:27 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:16:28 -0600, philo wrote:

NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

Why is black tape used on a white wire (some cases)? It indicates
something, but I don't know what (none electrician).


It indicates that that conductor has been repurposed into a non-neutral
(that is, may have voltage on it) conductor.

NB: don't trust that a non-taped white is in fact neutral. I've seen
plenty that weren't properly re-identified, even though it's a code
requirement.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/13/2013 04:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/13/2013 05:27 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:16:28 -0600, philo wrote:

NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

Why is black tape used on a white wire (some cases)? It indicates
something, but I don't know what (none electrician).


It indicates that that conductor has been repurposed into a non-neutral
(that is, may have voltage on it) conductor.

NB: don't trust that a non-taped white is in fact neutral. I've seen
plenty that weren't properly re-identified, even though it's a code
requirement.

nate



Yes you are right. Better to verify.


You should have seen what I ran into a few times in factories.

A few times I've seen a piece of rack mounted equipment with a live wire
to the chassis!


The first time I saw that one, I would not leave the building until the
electrician corrected it.

In the second situation I talked to the plant engineer and he replied:

I don't need a lesson in safety! sheesh

"Oren" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:00:18 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Usually the black tape on white wire is to denote a switched hot that is used
in the feed of a 3-way were both conductors in the romex are hots. For
a normal switch this is not necessary.

I just asked about the use of black tape on a white wire. It was a 3-
way IIRC.

I did not turn off a breaker and got my azz zapped (sue me later).

Turn the breakers OFF - note to self, regardless of what you do

That is generally the best advice. I live on the wild side and enjoy
the light show. :-)

Residential work gets a pass on this, but technically the entire length
of the wire is supposed to be taped. This is not possible with Romex,
but all visible insulation should be, but this is not usually enforced.

(depends on location)

Of course, a new allowance for just a ring of tape might have been passed.
It used to be that the smallest wire size that was allowed a ring of tape
was #6.

Taping an entire length of smaller than #6 wire is a total PITA!

On Friday, December 13, 2013 12:44:43 PM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote in message ...

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The

switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told

this by an electrician.



However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I

have

an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can

I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is

one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?





*The ground can also be green.







Thanks

Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.

There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through

that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected

together.



Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.





The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and

neutral, right?





*Wrong. The resistance in the load could affect the voltage reading. On a

Wiggy it may show up as just the little light coming on, but not the

solenoid kicking in.







What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0

volts. Right?





*Yes if there is no power on the load.



If there is only one two wire cable with ground going into the switch box,

the white wire is likely to be the line and the black would be the load. If

you have more than one cable in the box with the white wires spliced

together, then you are most likely to have a neutral.







If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)

I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which

one last longer.



I don't understand what you mean about the timer.







Um, sort of correct. The voltage between line and load would only show a

voltage drop. The actual voltage present would not be measured.

What's the difference between a "voltage drop" and "actual voltage present"?
I think you may be assuming he's talking about measuring the voltage with the
load connected to the line? I don't think that's the case. I took it to
mean that the load is disconnected from the line and the meter is hooked
between line and load. That is what you could do at a switch box going to
a load.




The voltage

drop reading should be very miniscule.

If you hook a voltmeter between the line and load and that is the
only path for current to the load, then you have a voltage divider
between the meter and the load. How much voltage you see is going
to depend on the resistance/impedance of the meter compared to the
load. With any reasonable load, most of the voltage is going to be
across the meter, because it's resistance is huge compared to the load.
If you had a 100W light bulb as the load, and an electronic VOM,
you'd see almost all the 120V across the meter.




If not, serious issues are at hand.



The difference between load side of line and neutral *might* be different than

between line and neutral at service entry. Voltage drop and conductor/termination

resistance comes into play with this. I don't recall the allowable percentage,

but somewhere along 5-10% max of premise voltage for circuit, or nominal voltage

rating of device being powered. Most devices have an acceptable voltage range.

However, anything approaching this in a residential setting is cause for concern

due to short runs not providing enough conductor resistance, therefore leading

one to suspect improper/corroded terminations in the circuit.



This is a generalization, of course.

wrote in message ...

What's the difference between a "voltage drop" and "actual voltage present"?
I think you may be assuming he's talking about measuring the voltage with the
load connected to the line? I don't think that's the case. I took it to
mean that the load is disconnected from the line and the meter is hooked
between line and load. That is what you could do at a switch box going to
a load.

You might be right. I presumed that the load was in circuit. The drop between
line and load should be barely observable, if at all. The drop across the load
accounts for the wiring and the load. This is still small.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:27:37 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:16:28 -0600, philo* wrote:

NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

Why is black tape used on a white wire (some cases)? It indicates
something, but I don't know what (none electrician).
It indicates it is a "live" conductor - not a neutral as white would
indicate.

In article ,
Jennifer Murphy wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Jennifer-

The wire coming from your fuse/breaker box to the switch box is the
"Line". The wire that goes from the switch box to what is being
switched, is the "Load" wire.

Now go to the load being switched. One wire is the "Load" wire from the
switch. The other wire is the Neutral line you need.

I think your best alternative would be to re-route the existing Neutral
line through the switch box. Otherwise you may need to run a new
Neutral wire from the fuse/breaker box to the programmable switch, and
on to the load.

Perhaps your electrician can advise you.

Fred

Fred McKenzie formulated the question :
In article ,
Jennifer Murphy wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Jennifer-

The wire coming from your fuse/breaker box to the switch box is the
"Line". The wire that goes from the switch box to what is being
switched, is the "Load" wire.

Now go to the load being switched. One wire is the "Load" wire from the
switch. The other wire is the Neutral line you need.

I think your best alternative would be to re-route the existing Neutral
line through the switch box. Otherwise you may need to run a new
Neutral wire from the fuse/breaker box to the programmable switch, and
on to the load.

Perhaps your electrician can advise you.

Fred

Perhaps is a very gentle word.
If someone with absoutly no understanding of electricity had got an
electrician in the firt place we could have saved this whole thread and
avoided a lot of rubbish from the semi literate.

--
John G

"Irreverent Maximus" wrote in message ...

wrote in message ...

What's the difference between a "voltage drop" and "actual voltage present"?

Oh, I forgot. The voltage drop between line and load is only the conductor. Think
of where you measurement points are. There is not a "load", but there is resistance.
Most meters will not show anything. The drop noticed is only the difference that one
might observe between voltage at the main versus that which would be observed say
between the circuit breaker and the neutral in the panel. Or, if one found a way
to intercept the line before the load while in the outlet box. A probe into a
wire nut, perchance.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:34:10 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"Irreverent Maximus" wrote in message ...

wrote in message ...

What's the difference between a "voltage drop" and "actual voltage present"?

Oh, I forgot. The voltage drop between line and load is only the conductor. Think
of where you measurement points are. There is not a "load", but there is resistance.
Most meters will not show anything. The drop noticed is only the difference that one
might observe between voltage at the main versus that which would be observed say
between the circuit breaker and the neutral in the panel. Or, if one found a way
to intercept the line before the load while in the outlet box. A probe into a
wire nut, perchance.
And you forgot something else too. If there is no load connected,
there is NO voltage drop. E=IxR. The voltage drop is E. The
resistance of the conductor is R. If the current is 0, it doesn't
matter WHAT the resistance is, there can be no voltage drop, so
whether the voltage is flowing directly to the switch, or through the
load to the switch, the voltmeter will read exactly the same.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 19:23:41 -0500, Fred McKenzie
wrote:

In article ,
Jennifer Murphy wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Jennifer-

The wire coming from your fuse/breaker box to the switch box is the
"Line". The wire that goes from the switch box to what is being
switched, is the "Load" wire.

Now go to the load being switched. One wire is the "Load" wire from the
switch. The other wire is the Neutral line you need.

I think your best alternative would be to re-route the existing Neutral
line through the switch box. Otherwise you may need to run a new
Neutral wire from the fuse/breaker box to the programmable switch, and
on to the load.

Perhaps your electrician can advise you.

Fred
If the house is wired with "romex" you cannot "add" a neutral - it
needs to be totally rewired to get a neutral.

Basically there are two ways of wiring a switched load, like a light.
You can switch the power TO the load - running the cable (line and
neutral) from the panel to the switch, and from the switch to the
load, with the neutral wire-nutted together, or you can switch the
power "from" the load - running the cable from the panel to the load,
and the load to the switch, wire-nutting the neutral together at the
light - and running a cable down to the switch where both black and
white wire can be "live".

wrote in message news
And you forgot something else too. If there is no load connected,
there is NO voltage drop. E=IxR. The voltage drop is E. The
resistance of the conductor is R. If the current is 0, it doesn't
matter WHAT the resistance is, there can be no voltage drop, so
whether the voltage is flowing directly to the switch, or through the
load to the switch, the voltmeter will read exactly the same.



My assertion is with a load connected. Maybe I did not explain it
correctly. The allowable drop for branch circuits is 2% (3% in some
locations).

A common practice for ferreting out issues with motor starters is to
measure the voltage across the input and output of each pole. Though,
this is primarily with poly-phase systems. Reading a voltage indicates
a termination/contact problem.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 20:15:07 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


wrote in message news
And you forgot something else too. If there is no load connected,
there is NO voltage drop. E=IxR. The voltage drop is E. The
resistance of the conductor is R. If the current is 0, it doesn't
matter WHAT the resistance is, there can be no voltage drop, so
whether the voltage is flowing directly to the switch, or through the
load to the switch, the voltmeter will read exactly the same.



My assertion is with a load connected. Maybe I did not explain it
correctly. The allowable drop for branch circuits is 2% (3% in some
locations).

A common practice for ferreting out issues with motor starters is to
measure the voltage across the input and output of each pole. Though,
this is primarily with poly-phase systems. Reading a voltage indicates
a termination/contact problem.
Same thing a mechanic does when looking for starting/charging/other
electrical problems on a car. Check voltage drop from - battery post
to engine block with starter cranking to check integrety of the ground
circuit - then across every connection if there is a problem until the
high resistance is found - and the same on the positive (load) side.
Same thing in the charging system, lights, heater, etc.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:24:35 -0500, wrote:


I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

Neither did I.


I think Tony made a couple assumptions, but they make sense to me...

the one place in a house that I've used or wanted to use a "programmable
switch" was for the bathroom vent fan, to get all the steamy air out
after a hot shower, but e.g. with a regular switch you either turn it
off when you leave for work or else leave the fan running all day. What
you really want in that situation is a timer, where it will run for say
two hours after you turn it on then shut off.

*IF* that is the OP's situation, a spring timer is a perfectly good
solution and easier than repulling wire to use her device of choice. If
it's something else, probably not so much.

nate
Occupancy switches - turn a light on when someone enters, and turns
the light off after you leave - requires a neutral on some, a ground
on others.

But what if your sitting there, in the tub or elsewhere, and you don't
move for a while. Then you're sitting in the dark!!

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:40:16 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

More specifically, there should be *ONE CABLE* that has a black,
white, and bare (there will be more than one). In that one cable, one
that's not connected to a switch will likely be the neutral. Those
that are connected to mechanical switches should be marked clearly as
something other than neutrals (colored tape or marker) but
electricians are often sloppy.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.
If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

This only works if you haven't separated the wires yet. If you have,
there may indeed be voltage on the neutral. WATCH OUT!

BTW, what are you doing poking around in a box with the power on? ;-)

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:15:52 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.

The voltage between line and load would be the same as between line and
neutral, right?

Not necessarily. There could be all sorts of things going on, like no
load connected.

What about between load and neutral? I would think that would also be 0
volts. Right?

Not necessarily. In the above case, you'll often see a phantom
voltage between load and neutral (or ground). It's better to measure
between hot and ground, then hot an neutral. None of this is a very
good way to identify the neutral, though.

If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

A mechanical timer is just a switch. It doesn't need a neutral. It
doesn't solve all of the problems that a programmable switch does but
some.

On Friday, December 13, 2013 6:53:24 PM UTC-5, Irreverent Maximus wrote:
wrote in message ...



What's the difference between a "voltage drop" and "actual voltage present"?

I think you may be assuming he's talking about measuring the voltage with the

load connected to the line? I don't think that's the case. I took it to

mean that the load is disconnected from the line and the meter is hooked

between line and load. That is what you could do at a switch box going to

a load.



You might be right. I presumed that the load was in circuit. The drop between

line and load should be barely observable, if at all. The drop across the load

accounts for the wiring and the load. This is still small.

The problem is you can't just say the drop between line and load.
What does that even mean?
You have to define where the meter is actually connected. And in
the context presented here, ie investigating wires at a switch
box, the way I would think it means is between the line and the
wire going to the load, with the wires apart.

Otherwise, what is between line and load? Across the switch,
with the switch closed? In that case, you should see near zero.
Open the switch and you'll see near 120V.

On 12/13/2013 5:16 PM, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:00:18 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Usually the black tape on white wire is to denote a switched hot that
is used
in the feed of a 3-way were both conductors in the romex are hots. For
a normal switch this is not necessary.

I just asked about the use of black tape on a white wire. It was a 3-
way IIRC.

I did not turn off a breaker and got my azz zapped (sue me later).

Turn the breakers OFF - note to self, regardless of what you do

That is generally the best advice. I live on the wild side and enjoy
the light show. :-)

I think OSHA has gotten rather ****y about this.

Residential work gets a pass on this, but technically the entire length
of the wire is supposed to be taped. This is not possible with Romex,
but all visible insulation should be, but this is not usually enforced.

(depends on location)

Of course, a new allowance for just a ring of tape might have been passed.
It used to be that the smallest wire size that was allowed a ring of tape
was #6.

Taping an entire length of smaller than #6 wire is a total PITA!

White used as a hot in romex must be re-marked wherever the conductor is
accessible.

White used as a hot in fished wiring is not allowed for #6 and smaller.
Use a wire that is the proper color to start with. For #4 and larger you
can change a 'hot' color to white by re-marking "at its terminations".

Wire #4 and larger can be re-marked green, where accessible, for use as
a ground wire.

On 12/13/2013 4:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 12/13/2013 05:27 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:16:28 -0600, philo wrote:

NOTE: If one of the wires connected to the switch is white...it is /not/
a neutral but simply the wire going to the bulb. It may have a piece of
tape on it with a color other than white.

Why is black tape used on a white wire (some cases)? It indicates
something, but I don't know what (none electrician).


It indicates that that conductor has been repurposed into a non-neutral
(that is, may have voltage on it) conductor.

NB: don't trust that a non-taped white is in fact neutral. I've seen
plenty that weren't properly re-identified, even though it's a code
requirement.

nate

Used to be if you ran a 2-wire romex to a switch (hot feed and switch
leg) the white could be the hot feed without re-marking it. Same with
3-wire romex - the white could be the hot feed to a 3-way switch. Same
would apply to other cable, like BX.

That was changed maybe 10 years ago to requiring the white be re-marked.

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.
If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

This only works if you haven't separated the wires yet. If you have,
there may indeed be voltage on the neutral. WATCH OUT!

BTW, what are you doing poking around in a box with the power on? ;-)

Hi,
If it is simple switch box with wires only for that it may be simple to
sort out which is which but crowded box with other wires pass through or
doing some thing else it may take a while to figure that all out. Our
one bathroom has 3 ganged boxes full of wires doing several things,
Jacuzzi
pump timer, IR heat lamp/vent fan, light fixtures..

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:11:16 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:59:33 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:31:04 -0800, Jennifer Murphy
wrote:

I have a programmable switch that requires a neutral line to work. The
switch boxes in this old house do not have a neutral line. I was told
this by an electrician.

However, my son has a newer house, which may have a neutral line. I have
an old Wiggy voltage tester. How can I test for a neutral line? How can
I tell the identify the line, the load, and the neutral (if there is
one)? I believe the ground will always be a bare wire, right?

Thanks
Look for a white wire that is not connected to a switch.
There usually will not be one unless the power is being fed through
that box and then there will be 2 or more white wires connected
together.

Also there is no voltage present between ground and neutral.
If there is no ground, then use mechanical timer(the wind-up type)
I intentionally installed both types for our bathroom to see which
one last longer.

This only works if you haven't separated the wires yet. If you have,
there may indeed be voltage on the neutral. WATCH OUT!

BTW, what are you doing poking around in a box with the power on? ;-)

Hi,
If it is simple switch box with wires only for that it may be simple to
sort out which is which but crowded box with other wires pass through or
doing some thing else it may take a while to figure that all out. Our
one bathroom has 3 ganged boxes full of wires doing several things,
Jacuzzi
pump timer, IR heat lamp/vent fan, light fixtures..

Sure, you can often visually determine which wire is which but
*measuring* voltages implies that you're disconnecting wires (at least
removing the wirenuts). Not smart, without disconnecting power.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 08:42:24 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:24:35 -0500, wrote:


I don't understand what you mean about the timer.

Neither did I.


I think Tony made a couple assumptions, but they make sense to me...

the one place in a house that I've used or wanted to use a "programmable
switch" was for the bathroom vent fan, to get all the steamy air out
after a hot shower, but e.g. with a regular switch you either turn it
off when you leave for work or else leave the fan running all day. What
you really want in that situation is a timer, where it will run for say
two hours after you turn it on then shut off.

*IF* that is the OP's situation, a spring timer is a perfectly good
solution and easier than repulling wire to use her device of choice. If
it's something else, probably not so much.

nate
Occupancy switches - turn a light on when someone enters, and turns
the light off after you leave - requires a neutral on some, a ground
on others.

But what if your sitting there, in the tub or elsewhere, and you don't
move for a while. Then you're sitting in the dark!!
So you wave your hand and the light comes back on??? Generally
"occupancy switches" can be adjusted for different turn-off times up
to half an hour.