We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.
--
Peace,
BobJ

We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.
--

You sound like you know it is not code/legal, but you want someone to
give you permission to do it.

There are many short-cuts that non-professional electricians can take
to save money, materials, make something work when they don't have the
right part, or it involves extra work.

It's similar to putting a switch in the neutral of a light circuit.
Sure, it will work for you, but when the next homeowner or electrican
comes to change the light fixture, they may assume that the wiring is
legal and code compliant. Thus they get zapped and or fall off a
ladder.

Beachcomber

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.

A very bad idea! Not legal and not electrically safe. I'm thinking this
switch is on the far side of a light switch, so the black comes to the
switch and the white is used as a black to go back to the light fixture.
If so, you need to pull a 3-conductor line to provide the neutral.

Don't even THINK about using the ground as a current-carrier.

W. Underhill

--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.


Wrong!. Lighted switches DO NOT use the grounding conductor as the return
path. Some use the neutral and others get a tiny current flow through the
load just like some of the X-10 switches. Unfortunately the standard X-10
switches cannot complete the circuit through the compact fluorescents hence
the need for a neutral.

Since when do CF bulbs require some newfangled special switch? I've got
dozens of them on standard switches.

--
Steve Barker







"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.
--
Peace,
BobJ

But X-10 switches need to have a relay to control CF bulbs. X-10 is a remote
control system.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Since when do CF bulbs require some newfangled special switch? I've got
dozens of them on standard switches.

--
Steve Barker







"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case
that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"William Underhill" wrote in message
news:0XZmi.126438$NV3.56571@pd7urf2no...
Marilyn & Bob wrote:
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case
that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.

A very bad idea! Not legal and not electrically safe. I'm thinking this
switch is on the far side of a light switch, so the black comes to the
switch and the white is used as a black to go back to the light fixture.
If so, you need to pull a 3-conductor line to provide the neutral.

It is true it is not code and not recommended to use the ground as a neutral
in order to allow the electronics in an X-10 switch to operate. While the
code does not allow such uses of the ground in a switch, it conveniently
allows the ground to be used as a neutral in older wiring of clothes dryers,
where one touches the metal chassis and handles wet clothes next to a washer
full of water. A serious contradiction in safety and usage of the ground
wire.

I'm aware of that, but that's not the way the OP was worded.

--
Steve Barker







"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...
But X-10 switches need to have a relay to control CF bulbs. X-10 is a
remote control system.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Since when do CF bulbs require some newfangled special switch? I've got
dozens of them on standard switches.

--
Steve Barker







"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case
that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely
connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.
--
Peace,
BobJ

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.


The sign on my office wall reads, "There is no right way to do the wrong
thing."


It is NOT code compliant to use the ground for a return on lighted
switches, even though some hacks do so. If the circuit had a GFCI
breaker feeding it, that breaker might even trip on the switch bulb
current flowing to ground, but maybe not, depending on how bright a
pilot lamp the switch uses.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs.
CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but
in one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with
five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use
one or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I
would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special
case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely
connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy,
lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current
demand,
while longer term is very low.

There are people at comp.home.automation that would probably know the
actual purpose of the neutral connection requirement for X10 switches.
You might want to try this question there.

Bob

"Bob F" wrote in message
. ..

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case
that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.

There are people at comp.home.automation that would probably know the
actual purpose of the neutral connection requirement for X10 switches. You
might want to try this question there.

Bob




Thank you. That what I'll do. It was from c.h.a that I learned the trick of
using one incandescent in parallel with the four CF bulbs to allow me to use
a standard (no neutral required) X-10 switch. While most people here
recommended against it, no one explained how it is different from the use of
a ground as part of the power circuit for the lamp in a lighted switch which
does not even have a neutral terminal. I trust that someone in c.h.a will
know if this is a good analogy or not.
--
Peace,
BobJ

(Beachcomber) wrote in
:


We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs.
CF bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral
wire, but in one case it does not. That switch controls a track
light system with five lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10
switch in that box and use one or two incandescent bulbs out of the
five and it works fine. Still I would like to run all five bulbs as
CF, so I need the special switch. The switch box is grounded (BX
cable) but has not neutral. In this special case that requires very
little current for very short periods, can I safely connect the
neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current
demand, while longer term is very low.
--

You sound like you know it is not code/legal, but you want someone to
give you permission to do it.

There are many short-cuts that non-professional electricians can take
to save money, materials, make something work when they don't have the
right part, or it involves extra work.

It's similar to putting a switch in the neutral of a light circuit.
Sure, it will work for you, but when the next homeowner or electrican

Or home inspector if you ever sell...and you are in a time crunch to
close...and the only way to get it done on time is to hire an
electrician... and pay the labor on top of materials, etc, etc.

comes to change the light fixture, they may assume that the wiring is
legal and code compliant. Thus they get zapped and or fall off a
ladder.

Beachcomber

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:8%8ni.5533$fP4.2998@trndny07...

"Bob F" wrote in message
. ..

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:MHWmi.5757$Wh4.1339@trndny06...
We have a half a dozen X-10 type wall switches controlling CF bulbs. CF
bulbs require special X-10 type switches that need both a hot and a
neutral
input. In all but one case the switch box has the neutral wire, but in
one
case it does not. That switch controls a track light system with five
lights. Currently, I have a regular X-10 switch in that box and use
one
or
two incandescent bulbs out of the five and it works fine. Still I
would
like to run all five bulbs as CF, so I need the special switch. The
switch
box is grounded (BX cable) but has not neutral. In this special case
that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely
connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy,
lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current
demand,
while longer term is very low.

There are people at comp.home.automation that would probably know the
actual purpose of the neutral connection requirement for X10 switches.
You
might want to try this question there.

Bob




Thank you. That what I'll do. It was from c.h.a that I learned the trick
of
using one incandescent in parallel with the four CF bulbs to allow me to
use
a standard (no neutral required) X-10 switch. While most people here
recommended against it, no one explained how it is different from the use
of
a ground as part of the power circuit for the lamp in a lighted switch
which
does not even have a neutral terminal. I trust that someone in c.h.a will
know if this is a good analogy or not.


The ground is NOT to be used as a current carrying conductor. You should
NOT be using the ground for your lighted switches. I explained in my
previous response how a lighted switch works. By connecting to the ground
you are putting current on your entire grounding system including your
copper plumbing. So while you are standing in a shower those faucets that
you turn the water on with could be live.

"Marilyn & Bob" writes:
In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.

First, I don't believe you that lighted switches use ground as the
neutral return for the pilot light. All of the lighted switches I've
seen do not have a neutral connection at all, and the internal pilot
light is simply wired in parallel with the switch contacts. When the
switch is open, the pilot lamp is in series with the load. The lamp
current is so low that effectively full line voltage appears across the
pilot lamp with nothing across the load.

Regular X10 switches almost certainly use the same trick of using the
controlled lamp as a "neutral" when they are in off mode. This may not
work with a CFL lamp, since it may have a high impedance instead of a
low impedance with only a few volts applied. The special X10 switch
has a real neutral connection so it doesn't need to rely on current flow
through the load. And it probably puts current into the neutral
*continuously*, not just "for very short periods".

Can you just arrange to have *one* incandescent lamp controlled by this
switch, in addition to the CFLs? Even a very low-wattage incandescent
should provide enough load for a normal two-wire switch to work.

Dave

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:43:33 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

"Marilyn & Bob" writes:
In this special case that
requires very little current for very short periods, can I safely connect
the neutral terminal on a switch to the ground? As an analogy, lighted
switches use the ground as the "return" circuit, but the current demand,
while longer term is very low.

First, I don't believe you that lighted switches use ground as the
neutral return for the pilot light. All of the lighted switches I've
seen do not have a neutral connection at all, and the internal pilot
light is simply wired in parallel with the switch contacts. When the
switch is open, the pilot lamp is in series with the load. The lamp
current is so low that effectively full line voltage appears across the
pilot lamp with nothing across the load.

Regular X10 switches almost certainly use the same trick of using the
controlled lamp as a "neutral" when they are in off mode. This may not
work with a CFL lamp, since it may have a high impedance instead of a
low impedance with only a few volts applied. The special X10 switch
has a real neutral connection so it doesn't need to rely on current flow
through the load. And it probably puts current into the neutral
*continuously*, not just "for very short periods".


X10 also has a "feature" that can be really annoying with some loads
(including some fluorescents), where the load causes the switch to
turn itself back on a few seconds after you turn it off. This can also
be corrected by adding a small incandescent light to the load.

Can you just arrange to have *one* incandescent lamp controlled by this
switch, in addition to the CFLs? Even a very low-wattage incandescent
should provide enough load for a normal two-wire switch to work.


Have you seen any 120V incandescents smaller than 5W? You can use
small (C7) holiday lights in night light fixtures and they use 5W. A
string of those lights will cost a lot less than an equivalent number
of "night light" bulbs.

Dave
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"So far as I can remember, there is not one word
in the Gospels in praise of intelligence."
--Bertrand Russell

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...

X10 also has a "feature" that can be really annoying with
some loads
(including some fluorescents), where the load causes the
switch to
turn itself back on a few seconds after you turn it off.
This can also
be corrected by adding a small incandescent light to the
load.

Or, the switch can be modified to disable the "remote-on"
feature. There are web sites showing how to mod them.

Bob