The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about
properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a
building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued
properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance
do it. Me included.

On 11/22/2013 6:00 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about
properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a
building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued
properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance
do it. Me included.

How would you know when it's about to break?

I've heard anecdotes about people put wire nuts
on with pliers, cause the instructor tests em
all, and tries to undo them. I often have to do
two wire nuts. I put electrical tape over the
both of them, for extra protection and also to
help keep them from twisting off.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:00:18 -0600, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:


The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about
properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a
building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued
properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance
do it. Me included.

Isn't a pro required to torque lugs on an electrical breaker panel at
initial install of the panel? ISTR reading that.

Then I asked myself, do they use a torque wrench and how much torque
lbs. is required or specified? Is there some document from the panel
manufacturer?

Do you mean actually using some sort of tool (like a torque wrench) to twist a wire nut or turn a screw to the proper torque setting?

No, no one on the face of this Good Earth does that...
...except perhaps for the instructor of your code refresher class.

Me, I just twist the byjeezus out of the wire nut or screw. I only stop turning when I'm convinced that further twisting is gonna break something.

But, then I'm not a pro; I just pretend to be one whenever I'm dealing with someone who knows less than me about a subject.

On 11/22/13 6:31 PM, Oren wrote:



Then I asked myself, do they use a torque wrench and how much torque
lbs. is required or specified? Is there some document from the panel
manufacturer?
jr

There are torque screwdrivers available. They're spendy, of
course. I think torque specs are routinely included in the labels in
electrical panels.

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:00:18 -0600, Dean Hoffman
" wrote:


The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about
properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a
building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued
properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance
do it. Me included.

Isn't a pro required to torque lugs on an electrical breaker panel at
initial install of the panel? ISTR reading that.

Then I asked myself, do they use a torque wrench and how much torque
lbs. is required or specified? Is there some document from the panel
manufacturer?

My Crouse-Hinds panel has a label inside the door specifying the torque by
both wire size and by wire way size. It also notes that the user should
check the breakers themselves for the torque specified by the breaker
manufacturer.

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message ...

The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about
properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a
building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued
properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance
do it. Me included.

If the termination is phillips, or blade, there really is not a need since
max torque is easily achieved.

Using nuts and bolts and/or allen head, all the time. I always carried
around one of those all in one handbooks from Ace Hardware. This book
is like a little almanac for "you name it". In this book it has a listing
of torque tables for size and grade of different size bolts. Plus the
conversion formulae for converting to and from inch pounds (usually what terminals
and lugs are listed under). I also managed to get a listing of all the
inch pound torque specs for Burndy lugs (ubiquitous) and used this as a
bookmark. Look up the size of the allen head and figure out the foot pounds
of torque for the torque wrench.

Usually it is not under torquing, but over torquing that is a problem. Some
of the lug housings may be split rather easily, and when you split a hard to
get lug on a $1000.00 plus circuit breaker or motor-starter for the first time,
that little torque wrench in the tool box becomes your friend when it comes to
the final five seconds of an install turning into a couple of days waiting for
one stupid lug to be located and express shipped.

Some lugs have very short set screws. I hate them. Unless you are maxing the
barrel out, putting the proper torque will drive the set screw past the threads.
Since the thread counts and dimensions are rather universal, I kept a supply of
the most common sizes in allen type, extra long. I'd pull the short ones and
toss them in the trash. I also kept a supply of the most common types of
lugs I might encounter in a grab box, in sets of four. There are certain things
that seem stupid to keep on hand at all times, but when in need. Hell, I bought
a wire fed welder for those moments when drilling and tapping just plain sucks.
Damn, I ran out of 3/8's bolts or strut nuts. It is metal, weld the beotch.:-)

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...
?

My Crouse-Hinds panel has a label inside the door specifying the torque by
both wire size and by wire way size. It also notes that the user should
check the breakers themselves for the torque specified by the breaker
manufacturer.

Crouse-Hinds. Yuk. :-)

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:42:48 +0100, nestork
wrote:

Do you mean actually using some sort of tool (like a torque wrench) to
twist a wire nut or turn a screw to the proper torque setting?

No, no one on the face of this Good Earth does that...
..except perhaps for the instructor of your code refresher class.

And he's probably the only guy to do it!!!

Me, I just twist the byjeezus out of the wire nut or screw. I only stop
turning when I'm convinced that further twisting is gonna break
something.

Same way I do it.....
Never had a connection fail in almost 50 years of wiring stuff.

But, then I'm not a pro; I just pretend to be one whenever I'm dealing
with someone who knows less than me about a subject.




--
nestork

On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message
...

The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about properly
torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a building one
time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued properly.
I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.
A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my
acquaintance do it. Me included.

If the termination is phillips, or blade, there really is not a need since
max torque is easily achieved.

Using nuts and bolts and/or allen head, all the time. I always carried
around one of those all in one handbooks from Ace Hardware. This book
is like a little almanac for "you name it". In this book it has a listing
of torque tables for size and grade of different size bolts. Plus the
conversion formulae for converting to and from inch pounds (usually what
terminals
and lugs are listed under).

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque
values are likely way too high.

I also managed to get a listing of all the
inch pound torque specs for Burndy lugs (ubiquitous) and used this as a
bookmark. Look up the size of the allen head and figure out the foot pounds
of torque for the torque wrench.

That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer of
the lug should be used.

I seldom use a torque wrench unless the wire is quite large.


Usually it is not under torquing, but over torquing that is a problem.

I believe that is correct. Aluminum, in particular, can compress and
"creep" with too high a torque.

Some
of the lug housings may be split rather easily, and when you split a
hard to
get lug on a $1000.00 plus circuit breaker or motor-starter for the
first time,
that little torque wrench in the tool box becomes your friend when it
comes to
the final five seconds of an install turning into a couple of days
waiting for
one stupid lug to be located and express shipped.

Some lugs have very short set screws. I hate them. Unless you are maxing
the
barrel out, putting the proper torque will drive the set screw past the
threads.
Since the thread counts and dimensions are rather universal, I kept a
supply of
the most common sizes in allen type, extra long. I'd pull the short ones
and
toss them in the trash.

What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion
rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the screw from
elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire
size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

I also kept a supply of the most common types of
lugs I might encounter in a grab box, in sets of four. There are certain
things
that seem stupid to keep on hand at all times, but when in need. Hell, I
bought
a wire fed welder for those moments when drilling and tapping just plain
sucks.
Damn, I ran out of 3/8's bolts or strut nuts. It is metal, weld the
beotch.:-)

"bud--" wrote in message eb.com...
On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque values are likely way too high.

The handbook is for nuts and/or bolts.

That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer of the lug should be used.

Um, the term ubiquitous was used. Do you know what that word means in the
context used?



What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the
screw from elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

Oh, you so funny. The replacement was from an engineered lug. It is just
a bit longer.


You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

You would be surprised. Not all wire is equal. Locomotive cable compresses
more readily than standard copper wire. When using crimp terminals we often
soldered them afterwards. The fine strands have a way of working loose, even
after max compression with a hydraulic crimper. Not all of the terminations
I had to make were static. Vibration and movement are present. My work was
not residential, it was industrial. Regardless, I still had lugs bottom out
using a conductor well within the lug's rating. Do not approach me as if I
have minimal experience with such things, it is rather arrogant of you.

On 11/23/2013 12:02 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque
values are likely way too high.

The handbook is for nuts and/or bolts.

You included "allen heads". And I read the original question as torquing
wire connections.


That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer
of the lug should be used.

Um, the term ubiquitous was used. Do you know what that word means in the
context used?

Only way I can read it is you use the Burndy torque for other
manufacturers. As I wrote "that is a good source, but the torque
recommended by the manufacturer of the lug should be used".


What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion
rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the screw
from elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

Oh, you so funny. The replacement was from an engineered lug. It is just
a bit longer.

Not at all obvious from what you posted. That means you are getting set
screws from other lugs, either recycling from junked lugs or junking new
lugs to get the setscrews.

Technically the lug is no longer UL listed. But ignoring that, I don't
ever remember ever having a set screw bottom when using a lug designed
for the size of wire.


You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire
size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

You would be surprised. Not all wire is equal. Locomotive cable compresses
more readily than standard copper wire. When using crimp terminals we often
soldered them afterwards. The fine strands have a way of working loose,
even
after max compression with a hydraulic crimper.

"110.14 Electrical connections
....
Connectors and terminals for conductors for more finely stranded than
Class B and Class C stranding as shown in Chapter 9, Table 10, shall be
identified for the specific conductor class or classes."
(Also appears in 690.31-F for photovoltaic.)

If the setscrew drives past the threads with locomotive cable you are
probably not using lugs designed for fine stranded cable.

Not all of the terminations
I had to make were static. Vibration and movement are present. My work was
not residential, it was industrial. Regardless, I still had lugs bottom out
using a conductor well within the lug's rating.

Do not approach me as if I
have minimal experience with such things, it is rather arrogant of you.

I approach what anyone says based on the accuracy of what is said.
Some of what you post has problems. Most is quite helpful.

I have repaired office machines since 1975... my entire life

I believe most experienced techs get a feeling for how tight to make stuff..

max torque is sometimes a bad idea, the next service trip may make it impossible to get whatever apart....

frankly i hate stuff thats been over torqued.

I have had dumb customers tell me with pride i always know when allen screws are tight, they make that click click click sound.

lucky me has to drill out the allens or in some cases use my sawzall to cut off shafts that i cant get apart

my goal is a quick low cost repair.....

idiots can make that impossible

On 11/23/2013 12:02 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque
values are likely way too high.

The handbook is for nuts and/or bolts.

That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer
of the lug should be used.

Um, the term ubiquitous was used. Do you know what that word means in the
context used?



What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion
rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the screw
from elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

Oh, you so funny. The replacement was from an engineered lug. It is just
a bit longer.


You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire
size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

You would be surprised. Not all wire is equal. Locomotive cable
compresses
more readily than standard copper wire. When using crimp terminals we
often
soldered them afterwards. The fine strands have a way of working loose,
even
after max compression with a hydraulic crimper. Not all of the
terminations
I had to make were static. Vibration and movement are present. My work
was
not residential, it was industrial. Regardless, I still had lugs bottom
out
using a conductor well within the lug's rating. Do not approach me as if I
have minimal experience with such things, it is rather arrogant of you.


I read about some American researchers working aboard a Russian
scientific survey ship and they were amazed at the Russian ship's
engineer who was able to get things to work with incredible feats
of improvisation. I too had to make a lot of my own parts doing
industrial and government contracting work. "We look for things, we
look for things that make us go" (The Pakleds from Star Trek TNG) ^_^

TDD

On 11/24/2013 10:30 PM, bob haller wrote:
I have repaired office machines since 1975... my entire life

I believe most experienced techs get a feeling for how tight to make
stuff..

max torque is sometimes a bad idea, the next service trip may make it
impossible to get whatever apart....

frankly i hate stuff thats been over torqued.

I have had dumb customers tell me with pride i always know when
allen screws are tight, they make that click click click sound.

lucky me has to drill out the allens or in some cases use my sawzall
to cut off shafts that i cant get apart

my goal is a quick low cost repair.....

idiots can make that impossible


Don't you just love going behind Billy Bob the service tech? ^_^

TDD

over the years I have made lots of improvements to machines some of which have been adopted by manufacturers

Although the manufacturers engineers usually dont like suggestions from techs

who knows better what fails frequently but can be altered to work much better

On 11/24/13 11:45 PM, bob haller wrote:
over the years I have made lots of improvements to machines some of which have been adopted by manufacturers

Although the manufacturers engineers usually dont like suggestions from techs

who knows better what fails frequently but can be altered to work much better

Plus the ways customers actually use things instead of how the
engineers plan for them to be used.

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ...
On 11/23/2013 12:02 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque
values are likely way too high.

The handbook is for nuts and/or bolts.

That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer
of the lug should be used.

Um, the term ubiquitous was used. Do you know what that word means in the
context used?



What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion
rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the screw
from elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

Oh, you so funny. The replacement was from an engineered lug. It is just
a bit longer.


You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire
size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

You would be surprised. Not all wire is equal. Locomotive cable
compresses
more readily than standard copper wire. When using crimp terminals we
often
soldered them afterwards. The fine strands have a way of working loose,
even
after max compression with a hydraulic crimper. Not all of the
terminations
I had to make were static. Vibration and movement are present. My work
was
not residential, it was industrial. Regardless, I still had lugs bottom
out
using a conductor well within the lug's rating. Do not approach me as if I
have minimal experience with such things, it is rather arrogant of you.


I read about some American researchers working aboard a Russian scientific survey ship and they were amazed at the Russian ship's
engineer who was able to get things to work with incredible feats
of improvisation. I too had to make a lot of my own parts doing
industrial and government contracting work. "We look for things, we
look for things that make us go" (The Pakleds from Star Trek TNG) ^_^

TDD


Some of the best work-arounds/inventions came via the "un-educated".
Hell, WWII pilots and crew modified planes in theater and said FU to
those who needed a "why" for adding to or modification of what seemed
like a perfectly functional aircraft.

Those whom questioned saw how things worked and designed in field mods
into future variants without credit.

"bob haller" wrote in message ...
over the years I have made lots of improvements to machines some of which have been adopted by manufacturers

Although the manufacturers engineers usually dont like suggestions from techs

who knows better what fails frequently but can be altered to work much better

LOL! Especially when they don't make a part, or tool, that will make it look like
the picture. :-)

Improvise, overcome, and adapt.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:00:50 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"bob haller" wrote in message ...
over the years I have made lots of improvements to machines some of which have been adopted by manufacturers

Although the manufacturers engineers usually dont like suggestions from techs

who knows better what fails frequently but can be altered to work much better

LOL! Especially when they don't make a part, or tool, that will make it look like
the picture. :-)

Improvise, overcome, and adapt.

HOOAH!

--
Army Mechanized Infantry Artillery

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On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:57:40 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message ...
On 11/23/2013 12:02 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 11/22/2013 10:15 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Lugs are not structural and the lug is not steel. The handbook torque
values are likely way too high.

The handbook is for nuts and/or bolts.

That is a good source, but the torque recommended by the manufacturer
of the lug should be used.

Um, the term ubiquitous was used. Do you know what that word means in the
context used?



What a great idea. You start with an engineered lug where expansion
rates are critical for a reliable connection, and replace the screw
from elsewhere. Steel would be a particularly bad idea.
Did you install the lug that failed for Danny?

Oh, you so funny. The replacement was from an engineered lug. It is just
a bit longer.


You shouldn't drive the screw past the threads if you are using a wire
size within the rated (minimum size) capacity of the lug.

You would be surprised. Not all wire is equal. Locomotive cable
compresses
more readily than standard copper wire. When using crimp terminals we
often
soldered them afterwards. The fine strands have a way of working loose,
even
after max compression with a hydraulic crimper. Not all of the
terminations
I had to make were static. Vibration and movement are present. My work
was
not residential, it was industrial. Regardless, I still had lugs bottom
out
using a conductor well within the lug's rating. Do not approach me as if I
have minimal experience with such things, it is rather arrogant of you.


I read about some American researchers working aboard a Russian scientific survey ship and they were amazed at the Russian ship's
engineer who was able to get things to work with incredible feats
of improvisation. I too had to make a lot of my own parts doing
industrial and government contracting work. "We look for things, we
look for things that make us go" (The Pakleds from Star Trek TNG) ^_^

TDD


Some of the best work-arounds/inventions came via the "un-educated".
Hell, WWII pilots and crew modified planes in theater and said FU to
those who needed a "why" for adding to or modification of what seemed
like a perfectly functional aircraft.

I liked the story about how the designers wanted to know where all the
damage was on the planes that limped back home so they could reenforce
those areas. The guys on the lines told them to forget that, but
rather to reenforce all the areas with no such damage. Those are the
places that got shot up on the planes that *didn't* make it home.

Those whom questioned saw how things worked and designed in field mods
into future variants without credit.

wrote in message ...

I liked the story about how the designers wanted to know where all the
damage was on the planes that limped back home so they could reenforce
those areas. The guys on the lines told them to forget that, but
rather to reenforce all the areas with no such damage. Those are the
places that got shot up on the planes that *didn't* make it home.

LOL! True enough.

"Oren" wrote in message ...


HOOAH!

Dang, tried to scare up a Marine and got the Army of 1. :-)

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:29:41 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message ...


HOOAH!

Dang, tried to scare up a Marine and got the Army of 1. :-)

"Never accuse a Soldier of being a Marine"

"Oren" wrote in message news
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:29:41 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message ...


HOOAH!

Dang, tried to scare up a Marine and got the Army of 1. :-)

"Never accuse a Soldier of being a Marine"

So, is a Soldier infantry? :-)

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:27:01 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message news
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:29:41 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message ...


HOOAH!

Dang, tried to scare up a Marine and got the Army of 1. :-)

"Never accuse a Soldier of being a Marine"

So, is a Soldier infantry? :-)

You bet! Asymmetrical .

بتاريخ السبت، 23 نو�مبر، 2013 UTC+2 1:00:18 ص، كتب Dean Hoffman:
The instructor at my last code refresher class talked about

properly torquing wiring connections. He said he went through a

building one time checking the connections. Few or none were torqued

properly.

I'm just curious if any of the pros here actually torque connections.

A quarter turn from breaking the screw is how people in my acquaintance

do it. Me included.

"Oren" wrote in message ...

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:27:01 -0600, Nightcrawler®

So, is a Soldier infantry? :-)

You bet! Asymmetrical .

Hmmm, does that mean a beer gut is involved? :-)

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:20:15 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message ...

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:27:01 -0600, Nightcrawler®

So, is a Soldier infantry? :-)

You bet! Asymmetrical .

Hmmm, does that mean a beer gut is involved? :-)

Hey! Round is a shape