On 10/24/2013 8:38 AM, Bill wrote:
On 10/23/2013 11:54 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 11:41 PM, Bill wrote:
Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one
paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature
that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low pressure.
For commercial I think there's no question of "yes" than can easily be
cost effective...

Where did you hear they need to be replaced every tire change? I've
vehicles well over 10 yo with them and have never replaced a single
one
and they still check out w/ a gauge.

The firmware has to be reset for a reference point after one has been
off the rim but that's just mashing a couple of buttons on the control
panel--just how depends on the vehicle, of course.

Snipped and hit send by mistake above......this is what I have to
do....and it's a PITA.

There are two different ways to relearn your Tire Pressure Monitoring
System (TPMS). One is with a TPMS scan tool (this is the preferred
method) and the other is the manual method (pain in the "you-know
what", but requires no special tools or equipment).

To use the manual method, set the parking brake. Enter into TPMS
RELEARN using the Driver Information Center (DIC) controls. (SEE
Owner's Manual)

When you have successfully entered TPMS RELEARN, the horn will chirp
and the left front turn signal will illuminate. Increase or decrease
the tire inflation pressure on the left front tire for 8 to 10
seconds. The horn will "chirp", indicating that the left front tire
pressure sensor has been relearned and the turn signal at the right
front will illuminate. Repeat the process for the right front tire.
The horn will chirp and the right rear turn signal will illuminate
indicating that the right front tire has been relearned and now you
must now repeat the process at the right rear tire. Then you will have
to repeat this a fourth time at the left rear. When the left rear tire
has been relearned, the horn will sound a "double chirp" indicating
that the relearn process has successfully completed.

Yep, that's how I did it! I had to read it a couple of times before I
believed it! LOL

And you need two people to do it.

No, I've done it by myself on two different Buick's (6 years
apart)--same process.

If going by horn chirps...but you can't see the right rear tail light
while putting air in the tires.

On 10/24/2013 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 10:41 PM, Bill wrote:
Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The firmware has to be reset for a reference point after one has been
off the rim but that's just mashing a couple of buttons on the control
panel--just how depends on the vehicle, of course.

...


To use the manual method, set the parking brake. Enter into TPMS
RELEARN using the Driver Information Center (DIC) controls. (SEE
Owner's Manual)

When you have successfully entered TPMS RELEARN, the horn will chirp
and the left front turn signal will illuminate. Increase or decrease
the tire inflation pressure on the left front tire for 8 to 10
seconds. The horn will "chirp", indicating that the left front tire
pressure sensor has been relearned and the turn signal at the right
front will illuminate. Repeat the process for the right front tire.
The horn will chirp and the right rear turn signal will illuminate
indicating that the right front tire has been relearned and now you
must now repeat the process at the right rear tire. Then you will have
to repeat this a fourth time at the left rear. When the left rear tire
has been relearned, the horn will sound a "double chirp" indicating
that the relearn process has successfully completed.

Yep, that's how I did it! I had to read it a couple of times before I
believed it! LOL

What in the world vehicle is this on???? Some firmware engineer needs
firing over that one...

GM vehicles are simply manually set pressure w/ tire gauge to desired
and then hit a 'Reset' button on the monitor screen...there are very
slight differences in where the function's hid but if you've done one
you can figure out any other that I've seen w/ only a few tries...


The above is for a GM vehicle.

Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 8:38 AM, Bill wrote:
On 10/23/2013 11:54 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 11:41 PM, Bill wrote:
Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires
and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one
paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature
that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low
pressure.
For commercial I think there's no question of "yes" than can
easily be
cost effective...

Where did you hear they need to be replaced every tire change? I've
vehicles well over 10 yo with them and have never replaced a single
one
and they still check out w/ a gauge.

The firmware has to be reset for a reference point after one has
been
off the rim but that's just mashing a couple of buttons on the
control
panel--just how depends on the vehicle, of course.

Snipped and hit send by mistake above......this is what I have to
do....and it's a PITA.

There are two different ways to relearn your Tire Pressure Monitoring
System (TPMS). One is with a TPMS scan tool (this is the preferred
method) and the other is the manual method (pain in the "you-know
what", but requires no special tools or equipment).

To use the manual method, set the parking brake. Enter into TPMS
RELEARN using the Driver Information Center (DIC) controls. (SEE
Owner's Manual)

When you have successfully entered TPMS RELEARN, the horn will chirp
and the left front turn signal will illuminate. Increase or decrease
the tire inflation pressure on the left front tire for 8 to 10
seconds. The horn will "chirp", indicating that the left front tire
pressure sensor has been relearned and the turn signal at the right
front will illuminate. Repeat the process for the right front tire.
The horn will chirp and the right rear turn signal will illuminate
indicating that the right front tire has been relearned and now you
must now repeat the process at the right rear tire. Then you will
have
to repeat this a fourth time at the left rear. When the left rear
tire
has been relearned, the horn will sound a "double chirp" indicating
that the relearn process has successfully completed.

Yep, that's how I did it! I had to read it a couple of times
before I
believed it! LOL

And you need two people to do it.

No, I've done it by myself on two different Buick's (6 years
apart)--same process.

If going by horn chirps...but you can't see the right rear tail light
while putting air in the tires.
I must be good. I can do it with "chirps" alone--LOL!

On 10/24/2013 01:05 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 10:41 PM, Bill wrote:
Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
...

The firmware has to be reset for a reference point after one has been
off the rim but that's just mashing a couple of buttons on the control
panel--just how depends on the vehicle, of course.

...


To use the manual method, set the parking brake. Enter into TPMS
RELEARN using the Driver Information Center (DIC) controls. (SEE
Owner's Manual)

When you have successfully entered TPMS RELEARN, the horn will chirp
and the left front turn signal will illuminate. Increase or decrease
the tire inflation pressure on the left front tire for 8 to 10
seconds. The horn will "chirp", indicating that the left front tire
pressure sensor has been relearned and the turn signal at the right
front will illuminate. Repeat the process for the right front tire.
The horn will chirp and the right rear turn signal will illuminate
indicating that the right front tire has been relearned and now you
must now repeat the process at the right rear tire. Then you will have
to repeat this a fourth time at the left rear. When the left rear tire
has been relearned, the horn will sound a "double chirp" indicating
that the relearn process has successfully completed.

Yep, that's how I did it! I had to read it a couple of times before I
believed it! LOL

What in the world vehicle is this on???? Some firmware engineer needs
firing over that one...

GM vehicles are simply manually set pressure w/ tire gauge to desired
and then hit a 'Reset' button on the monitor screen...there are very
slight differences in where the function's hid but if you've done one
you can figure out any other that I've seen w/ only a few tries...


The above is for a GM vehicle.


yes, it's irritating. Especially on one that requires tire rotation
with every oil change. If you don't do it, if you pick up a screw
you'll be scratching your head trying to figure out which tire is
actually low. BMW's reset procedure is much easier (essentially
selecting "reset" from a menu) but this is one rare instance where GM's
implementation is actually better in some respects, as it allows you to
scroll through the actual pressures of each wheel on the display.

nate

--
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http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/24/2013 11:56 AM, Ron wrote:
....

The only warnings I have ever received were while on a road trip and
they were "tire pressure too high".

On a half-dozen or so GM and Chrysler vehicles I have/had that's never
happened -- the firmware seems to have sufficient leeway on high side to
account for warmup. I tend to run to the higher range of rated
pressures; 35-36 usually instead of the low 30's typical of the vehicle
column stickers. Whether that has any bearing or not I've no data to
refer to. I have had a time or two when did have a low warning the
second morning out -- why that's a pretty common possibility for us will
be seen from the next paragraph.

Since we're on several miles of gravel roads and there's always new junk
turned over every time they're graded, punctures are a way of life,
particularly on the passenger cars. Hence it's pretty common to get a
'low' indication the next time go get in the car from having acquired a
new slow leak...that is actually a useful feature particularly for the
wife to go by the tire shop when she gets to town if it's at, say, 20 or
so so it'll make the 5-mi or so trip...or even if lower to add some air
before she heads that way. So, overall, imo they're _a_good_thing_ (tm).

--

On 10/24/2013 12:03 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 8:38 AM, Bill wrote:
....

No, I've done it by myself on two different Buick's (6 years
apart)--same process.

If going by horn chirps...but you can't see the right rear tail light
while putting air in the tires.

I've had Buicks for 20+ yr and none have had anything remotely
resembling that--simply 'RESET' from the monitor for the tire pressure
screen display field when cycle thru variables.

This holds from the first that were simply an imbalance indication (no
absolute nor even identify which tire just an anomaly) to the present
that are absolute pressure for each wheel--the reset was the same.

The 300M Chrysler was essentially same w/ a slightly different interface
to the computer--when got back to the farm it had too hard a suspension
and too low ground clearance for the dirt roads so replaced it w/
another Buick (the Enclave as it has 20" rims for clearance and AWD for
the mud and sand).

--

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 01:56:40 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 19:46:56 -0500, Fat-Dumb and Happy
wrote:

It's more about safety than anything, and helped keep the SUV markets
alive when roll overs were happening with them. Next time ur on the
highway and a big arse SUV is running along side or coming at you, it
would be best if it had enough air in it's tires.

This isn't all SUVs, it was certain Ford Explorers with a SUV body on
a passenger car suspension and the wrong tires spec'ed because Ford
was in bed with Firestone.

The Explorer is not an "SUV body on a passenger car". The Explorer is
a truck frame (identical to the Ranger) with a bit different body.
But, yes, Ford screwed the pooch on that one.

They are hitting a fly with a huge government sledge hammer.

When all government has is a huge government sledge hammer, the
individual is always the nail.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:56:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/23/2013 9:38 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low pressure.

So just ignore over inflated?

Well, DOH!, no, but it's far less of an occurrence other than perhaps
after a flat repair or the like. Plus, in general most current
passenger tires are rated for 40 or so psi as max and they'll actually
run cooler (albeit harsher ride) at the higher pressures so it's pretty
unlikely to ever have one high enough to actually be a real concern...

Possible, sure, but not very likely particularly in comparison to
under-inflated which is both more likely from starting at low
recommended pressures with any leakage and that low pressure equates to
more sidewall flexure which is more heat which is the real culprit in
causing failures at speed. There's secondary contributor to
excessive/uneven treadwear of course.

The pressure in tires rarely increases by itself. ;-)

On 10/24/2013 1:08 PM, Bill wrote:
Ron wrote:

And you need two people to do it.

No, I've done it by myself on two different Buick's (6 years
apart)--same process.

If going by horn chirps...but you can't see the right rear tail light
while putting air in the tires.
I must be good. I can do it with "chirps" alone--LOL!

Well, I've only had to do it once (so far) and I just wanted to make
sure I got it right by the owners manual.

On 10/24/2013 1:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 12:03 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 8:38 AM, Bill wrote:
...

No, I've done it by myself on two different Buick's (6 years
apart)--same process.

If going by horn chirps...but you can't see the right rear tail light
while putting air in the tires.

I've had Buicks for 20+ yr and none have had anything remotely
resembling that--simply 'RESET' from the monitor for the tire pressure
screen display field when cycle thru variables.

This holds from the first that were simply an imbalance indication (no
absolute nor even identify which tire just an anomaly) to the present
that are absolute pressure for each wheel--the reset was the same.

The 300M Chrysler was essentially same w/ a slightly different interface
to the computer--when got back to the farm it had too hard a suspension
and too low ground clearance for the dirt roads so replaced it w/
another Buick (the Enclave as it has 20" rims for clearance and AWD for
the mud and sand).


Well....
http://www.gmtruckclub.com/forum/sho...-Buick-Enclave

On 10/24/2013 12:05 PM, Ron wrote:
....

The above is for a GM vehicle.

Which one(s), specifically? I've never seen such and had almost
exclusively (one Chrysler thrown in) for the entire time of the pressure
sensor era...

I want to be sure to not ever have one--it's another thing to check for
that one wouldn't normally--like whether there's an actual antenna on
the radio or not (who'dda thunk that wouldn't be on a vehicle but the
'10 Enclave doesn't ).

--

On 10/24/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:56:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/23/2013 9:38 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low pressure.

So just ignore over inflated?

Well, DOH!, no, but it's far less of an occurrence other than perhaps
after a flat repair or the like. Plus, in general most current
passenger tires are rated for 40 or so psi as max and they'll actually
run cooler (albeit harsher ride) at the higher pressures so it's pretty
unlikely to ever have one high enough to actually be a real concern...

Possible, sure, but not very likely particularly in comparison to
under-inflated which is both more likely from starting at low
recommended pressures with any leakage and that low pressure equates to
more sidewall flexure which is more heat which is the real culprit in
causing failures at speed. There's secondary contributor to
excessive/uneven treadwear of course.

The pressure in tires rarely increases by itself. ;-)


Then how come in NASCAR they start out with really low tire pressures at
the start of the race or after a pit stop to allow for the pressures to
build up?

On 10/24/2013 2:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 12:05 PM, Ron wrote:
...

The above is for a GM vehicle.

Which one(s), specifically? I've never seen such and had almost
exclusively (one Chrysler thrown in) for the entire time of the pressure
sensor era...

I want to be sure to not ever have one--it's another thing to check for
that one wouldn't normally--like whether there's an actual antenna on
the radio or not (who'dda thunk that wouldn't be on a vehicle but the
'10 Enclave doesn't ).


I've already posted this once but here it is again and this covers the
2010 Enclave....

http://www.gmtruckclub.com/forum/sho...-Buick-Enclave

On 10/24/2013 1:11 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 12:05 PM, Ron wrote:
...

The above is for a GM vehicle.

Which one(s), specifically? I've never seen such and had almost
exclusively (one Chrysler thrown in) for the entire time of the pressure
sensor era...

I want to be sure to not ever have one--...
....
I've already posted this once but here it is again and this covers the
2010 Enclave....

....

Oh, we've been talking two different things -- that's for the
replacement of a sensor and the recalibration of the system--I
apparently misinterpreted the first posting responded to's pont of
reference.

I was just speaking of how to reset the alert after an alarm
situation/tire repair/etc. I can understand that swapping out a sensor
is more involved to reprogram the CMOS constants; I've never had to do
that in the entire time of all the vehicles that have had pressure sensors.

--

On 10/24/2013 3:10 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 1:11 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 12:05 PM, Ron wrote:
...

The above is for a GM vehicle.

Which one(s), specifically? I've never seen such and had almost
exclusively (one Chrysler thrown in) for the entire time of the pressure
sensor era...

I want to be sure to not ever have one--...
...
I've already posted this once but here it is again and this covers the
2010 Enclave....

...

Oh, we've been talking two different things -- that's for the
replacement of a sensor and the recalibration of the system--I
apparently misinterpreted the first posting responded to's pont of
reference.

I was just speaking of how to reset the alert after an alarm
situation/tire repair/etc. I can understand that swapping out a sensor
is more involved to reprogram the CMOS constants; I've never had to do
that in the entire time of all the vehicles that have had pressure sensors.


No, that was after rotating the tires. It even stats in the owners
manual that the after rotating the tires to "Reset the Tire Pressure
Monitor" Page 10-50.

And the steps to reset the monitor are on page 10-49.

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it after
installing/rotating tires?

http://www.buick.com/content/dam/Bui...ner-Manual.pdf
System.

On 10/24/2013 02:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 12:05 PM, Ron wrote:
...

The above is for a GM vehicle.

Which one(s), specifically? I've never seen such and had almost
exclusively (one Chrysler thrown in) for the entire time of the pressure
sensor era...

I want to be sure to not ever have one--it's another thing to check for
that one wouldn't normally--like whether there's an actual antenna on
the radio or not (who'dda thunk that wouldn't be on a vehicle but the
'10 Enclave doesn't ).


Impalas 2006-2009 at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Yw09PDFms

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thursday, October 24, 2013 5:22:40 AM UTC-7, Tegger wrote:
Bill wrote in
:

I was under the impression the sensor was viewing a profile of the
tire.
All the sensor does is detect the absolute pressure inside the tire; it
doesn't care about anything else.
Some types of sensors are unique to each tire, and communicate with a
receiver mounted on the body near that tire, which then talks to the TPMS
computer. Other types communicate directly with the TPMS computer, meaning
the computer doesn't know which tire is low, and you need to check all
four.

The "unique sensor" type seems to be found mostly on vehicles marketed as
higher-end.
I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything attached
to the valve stem!

If the stem is metal, then you have a sensor screwed to the other end of
the stem.

If the stem is rubber, then there is nothing attached to the stem; instead,
TPMS uses the ABS to infer pressure differential from tire to ti too
great a difference in rotational speeds, then one tire is lower than the
other.

Just how does it tell a "low tire" from a properly inflated one when going around a sharp corner?

Harry K

On 10/24/2013 03:45 PM, Harry K wrote:
On Thursday, October 24, 2013 5:22:40 AM UTC-7, Tegger wrote:
Bill wrote in
:

I was under the impression the sensor was viewing a profile of the
tire.
All the sensor does is detect the absolute pressure inside the tire; it
doesn't care about anything else.
Some types of sensors are unique to each tire, and communicate with a
receiver mounted on the body near that tire, which then talks to the TPMS
computer. Other types communicate directly with the TPMS computer, meaning
the computer doesn't know which tire is low, and you need to check all
four.

The "unique sensor" type seems to be found mostly on vehicles marketed as
higher-end.
I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything attached
to the valve stem!

If the stem is metal, then you have a sensor screwed to the other end of
the stem.

If the stem is rubber, then there is nothing attached to the stem; instead,
TPMS uses the ABS to infer pressure differential from tire to ti too
great a difference in rotational speeds, then one tire is lower than the
other.

Just how does it tell a "low tire" from a properly inflated one when going around a sharp corner?

Harry K


I'm assuming that the software is programmed to allow for a decent
amount of time with consistent rotational speed differences before
throwing the light.

You could probably trick it by driving around in the same circle for
several minutes, but a) I don't have a car with FTM (FTM = Flat Tire
Monitor e.g. inferred from ABS wheel speed sensors; TPMS = Tire Pressure
Monitor System) and b) I'm not that bored.

nate

--
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http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/24/2013 2:42 PM, Ron wrote:
....

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it after
installing/rotating tires?
....

I've never bothered to rotate tires--can't see it's ever made any
difference presuming keep vehicle aligned and proper inflation since
advent of independent suspension. Of course, on these gravel roads wear
isn't such as would see if only drove on paved roads, either...

--

On 10/24/2013 2:43 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/24/2013 02:00 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I want to be sure to not ever have one--...

....

Impalas 2006-2009 at least.
....

See other subthread to Ron--turns out we were talking apples/oranges...

--

On 10/24/2013 3:07 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:42 PM, Ron wrote:
...

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it after
installing/rotating tires?
...

I've never bothered to rotate tires--can't see it's ever made any
difference presuming keep vehicle aligned and proper inflation since
advent of independent suspension. Of course, on these gravel roads wear
isn't such as would see if only drove on paved roads, either...

About the last car I can recall that "religiously" rotated tires on
would probably have been the '69 Charger... -- and even that would
have been pretty irregular. Once the bias-ply 6.70-15 nylon cord
construction disappeared, there really was little need afaict.

--

On 10/24/2013 05:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 3:07 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:42 PM, Ron wrote:
...

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it after
installing/rotating tires?
...

I've never bothered to rotate tires--can't see it's ever made any
difference presuming keep vehicle aligned and proper inflation since
advent of independent suspension. Of course, on these gravel roads wear
isn't such as would see if only drove on paved roads, either...

About the last car I can recall that "religiously" rotated tires on
would probably have been the '69 Charger... -- and even that would
have been pretty irregular. Once the bias-ply 6.70-15 nylon cord
construction disappeared, there really was little need afaict.


GM FWD cars chew up the outsides of the front tires like you wouldn't
believe. If you don't rotate you'll end up replacing the fronts 2x as
often as the rears.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 10/24/2013 6:13 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/24/2013 05:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 3:07 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:42 PM, Ron wrote:
...

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it after
installing/rotating tires?
...

I've never bothered to rotate tires--can't see it's ever made any
difference presuming keep vehicle aligned and proper inflation since
advent of independent suspension. Of course, on these gravel roads wear
isn't such as would see if only drove on paved roads, either...

About the last car I can recall that "religiously" rotated tires on
would probably have been the '69 Charger... -- and even that would
have been pretty irregular. Once the bias-ply 6.70-15 nylon cord
construction disappeared, there really was little need afaict.


GM FWD cars chew up the outsides of the front tires like you wouldn't
believe. If you don't rotate you'll end up replacing the fronts 2x as
often as the rears.

Not just GM. All FWD cars wear out the front tires much quicker than the
rear. I've never heard of anyone (until now) not rotating their tires.

On 10/24/2013 06:43 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/24/2013 6:13 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 10/24/2013 05:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 3:07 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/24/2013 2:42 PM, Ron wrote:
...

Maybe you have never had to do it because the tire store reset it
after
installing/rotating tires?
...

I've never bothered to rotate tires--can't see it's ever made any
difference presuming keep vehicle aligned and proper inflation since
advent of independent suspension. Of course, on these gravel roads wear
isn't such as would see if only drove on paved roads, either...

About the last car I can recall that "religiously" rotated tires on
would probably have been the '69 Charger... -- and even that would
have been pretty irregular. Once the bias-ply 6.70-15 nylon cord
construction disappeared, there really was little need afaict.


GM FWD cars chew up the outsides of the front tires like you wouldn't
believe. If you don't rotate you'll end up replacing the fronts 2x as
often as the rears.

Not just GM. All FWD cars wear out the front tires much quicker than the
rear. I've never heard of anyone (until now) not rotating their tires.


Well, BMW specifically recommend against it.

I can't rotate my summer set as it's staggered, but I'm definitely
putting my winters on opposite of how I did last year... I must have a
heavy foot, the rears are 2x as worn as the fronts!

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:02:22 -0400, Ron wrote:

On 10/24/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:56:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/23/2013 9:38 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low pressure.

So just ignore over inflated?

Well, DOH!, no, but it's far less of an occurrence other than perhaps
after a flat repair or the like. Plus, in general most current
passenger tires are rated for 40 or so psi as max and they'll actually
run cooler (albeit harsher ride) at the higher pressures so it's pretty
unlikely to ever have one high enough to actually be a real concern...

Possible, sure, but not very likely particularly in comparison to
under-inflated which is both more likely from starting at low
recommended pressures with any leakage and that low pressure equates to
more sidewall flexure which is more heat which is the real culprit in
causing failures at speed. There's secondary contributor to
excessive/uneven treadwear of course.

The pressure in tires rarely increases by itself. ;-)


Then how come in NASCAR they start out with really low tire pressures at
the start of the race or after a pit stop to allow for the pressures to
build up?

And it goes up more during the race, until you have to let some out?

On 10/24/2013 7:57 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:02:22 -0400, Ron wrote:

On 10/24/2013 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:56:38 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/23/2013 9:38 PM, Ron wrote:
On 10/23/2013 8:50 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/23/2013 6:48 PM, Metspitzer wrote:
Anyone think those are a money saving devices? I just learned that
the sensors in tires should be replaced every time you buy tires and
they are over 40 bucks per tire.

The cost would seem to outweigh any savings from preventing any
improper tire wear.

"Money saving?" for a passenger vehicle? No, not really unless one paid
no attention otherwise it's possible. They are a safety feature that is
worthwhile imo; again if paid attention to when indicate low pressure.

So just ignore over inflated?

Well, DOH!, no, but it's far less of an occurrence other than perhaps
after a flat repair or the like. Plus, in general most current
passenger tires are rated for 40 or so psi as max and they'll actually
run cooler (albeit harsher ride) at the higher pressures so it's pretty
unlikely to ever have one high enough to actually be a real concern...

Possible, sure, but not very likely particularly in comparison to
under-inflated which is both more likely from starting at low
recommended pressures with any leakage and that low pressure equates to
more sidewall flexure which is more heat which is the real culprit in
causing failures at speed. There's secondary contributor to
excessive/uneven treadwear of course.

The pressure in tires rarely increases by itself. ;-)


Then how come in NASCAR they start out with really low tire pressures at
the start of the race or after a pit stop to allow for the pressures to
build up?

And it goes up more during the race, until you have to let some out?


Crew chiefs (some better than others) know how much pressure will build
up during a run so they adjust accordingly. Some tires do gain too much
pressure which makes the front end bounce. It has been described as
driving with 2 basketballs on the front.

Check out what a team (RCR) did back in '06

http://www.sbnation.com/2006/09/rcr-...-envelope.html

Waste of time/money if you axe me.

I check my psis 1-2x per month.

On 10/24/2013 6:13 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

GM FWD cars chew up the outsides of the front tires like you wouldn't
believe. If you don't rotate you'll end up replacing the fronts 2x as
often as the rears.

nate


And the rear will be cupped just enough to make a lot of noise

On 10/24/2013 6:43 PM, Ron wrote:


Not just GM. All FWD cars wear out the front tires much quicker than
the rear. I've never heard of anyone (until now) not rotating their
tires.


Really? I know lots of people that don't rotate. I'm
rather lax about it myself and am way overdue by 17000 miles.

On 10/24/2013 3:45 PM, Harry K wrote:


If the stem is rubber, then there is nothing attached to the stem; instead,
TPMS uses the ABS to infer pressure differential from tire to ti too
great a difference in rotational speeds, then one tire is lower than the
other.

Just how does it tell a "low tire" from a properly inflated one when going around a sharp corner?

Harry K


It judges after a certain distance of straight driving. My Buick would
trip at about 5 psi difference.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:40:23 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

wrote in :



This isn't all SUVs, it was certain Ford Explorers with a SUV body on
a passenger car suspension and the wrong tires spec'ed because Ford
was in bed with Firestone.



Not quite.

Ford was seeking a softer ride for the Explorer, so they specified a lower
pressure than Firestone spec'ed for that tire. The problem was that by
spec'ing such a low pressure they removed the safety factor, meaning that
only a little pressure could be lost before the tire was in danger of
overheating. Then one day an Explorer in Texas during a heat wave had a
low-pressure situation, a tire blew, the vehicle rolled and somebody died.
I can't quite remember now, but I believe the deceased was beltless.

Ford tried to blame Firestone, which did their own investigation,
discovered the non-authorized pressure setting, and disclaimed
responsibility. Then the lawyers and activists got involved and we now have
mandated TPMS. Never mind that Texas-type incidents are vanishingly rare
("if it saves just one life!"; "it's for the Children!").



That's all complete horse pukey. The explorers problems were ENTIRELY
due to defective firestone tires, not low tire pressure. The tires
were literally crap from the day they were made, they were not even
balanceable, I own a 92 explorer and have since it was new. I threw
out the firestones with half the tread still on them because they were
NOT balanceable and literally would shake the truck like it was on a
log road. A new set of Michelins and the truck rode like it was on
glass. Ford also sold the same vehicle with Goodyear tires on it.
They had NONE of the alleged "low pressure" problems on the ones with
the Goodyear tires because it wasn't 'low pressure' that was the
problem, it was the crap firestone tires. I have seen so many
firestones blow out over the years that I will NEVER buy another
firestone, just not worth the risk.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:36:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 01:56:40 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 19:46:56 -0500, Fat-Dumb and Happy
wrote:

It's more about safety than anything, and helped keep the SUV markets
alive when roll overs were happening with them. Next time ur on the
highway and a big arse SUV is running along side or coming at you, it
would be best if it had enough air in it's tires.

This isn't all SUVs, it was certain Ford Explorers with a SUV body on
a passenger car suspension and the wrong tires spec'ed because Ford
was in bed with Firestone.

The Explorer is not an "SUV body on a passenger car". The Explorer is
a truck frame (identical to the Ranger) with a bit different body.
But, yes, Ford screwed the pooch on that one.

They are hitting a fly with a huge government sledge hammer.

When all government has is a huge government sledge hammer, the
individual is always the nail.


Incidentally, 4x4 Explorers had lower fatality RATES then some
Mercedes cars and most other SUV's. Ford didn't screw anything, they
just got caught in a massive media frenzy over nothing just like the
media frenzy of "exploding" crown vics. Another myth constructed
entirely in the media.

On 10-24-2013, 01:56, wrote:
This isn't all SUVs, it was certain Ford Explorers with a SUV body on
a passenger car suspension and the wrong tires spec'ed because Ford
was in bed with Firestone.

They are hitting a fly with a huge government sledge hammer.

And as usual, the politicians can't understand that the fly
is faster than the sledgehammer.

--
Wes Groleau

Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire!
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...gs/pants-fire/

On 10/24/2013 5:13 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
....

GM FWD cars chew up the outsides of the front tires like you wouldn't
believe. If you don't rotate you'll end up replacing the fronts 2x as
often as the rears.

Well, I don't see that at all...they all go pretty much as a group and
pretty evenly. If they wear non-uniformly they're either out of
alignment or under-/overinflated drastically (or both).

If one follows recent car manufacturers' inflation guidelines, they're
likely way under and that will cause inner/outer edge preferential wear
because they roll under turn and the lack of sufficient pressure lets
the surface buckle.

http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/tire-wear-patterns.html

--

On 10/24/13 8:14 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/24/2013 6:43 PM, Ron wrote:


Not just GM. All FWD cars wear out the front tires much quicker than
the rear. I've never heard of anyone (until now) not rotating their
tires.


Really? I know lots of people that don't rotate. I'm
rather lax about it myself and am way overdue by 17000 miles.

I learned a lesson on my Subaru about tire rotation. I waited
about twice as long to rotate the tires as I should've. It didn't take
long before tires started wearing really badly. The lesson I think is
rotate on schedule or not at all.
Tires are one thing that have really improved over the years. It
used to be common to see people changing tires along the roads. It's
fairly rare now.

some cars are just bad about tires. I've seen too many FWD GMs with the same wear patterns for it to be coincidence. Had two as company cars and I always checked pressure with a Longacre tire gauge although I did have to be persistent to get the fleet people to authorize alignments.

Similar but different issue... due to the factory alignment specs, BMW cars handle great but often wear out the inside edges of the rear tires (IRS) before anything else goes. Bimmer owners who do lots of highway driving sometimes fudge the rear camber to the low end of spec for better tire life.

On 10/25/2013 8:57 AM, N8N wrote:
some cars are just bad about tires. I've seen too many FWD GMs with
the same wear patterns for it to be coincidence. ...

I don't think The General has built any especially for me and I've had
them almost exclusively since the advent of FWD. That would
be...hmmm...about 10 total iirc.

--

On 10/25/2013 12:00 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/25/2013 8:57 AM, N8N wrote:
some cars are just bad about tires. I've seen too many FWD GMs with
the same wear patterns for it to be coincidence. ...

I don't think The General has built any especially for me and I've had
them almost exclusively since the advent of FWD. That would
be...hmmm...about 10 total iirc.

They have all been full-sized vehicles, however...not sure what the
smaller might do that's unique to them. Seems like the first FWD had
was the '88 88; it replaced the '84 which was RWD. Only had it and the
one PU then...the numbers didn't multiply drastically 'til started
throwing in the kids--but I always put them in either the retired former
main vehicle or at least something with a lot of "stuff" around 'em when
were young...I had a CRX that drove to the plant for a few years to save
on the gas of the PU but that's the only concession to size I've ever
made (or probably ever will) make.

Most recent ploy was to search out a recent low-mileage Lucerne since
they quit building the LeSabre--it handles well but w/ the 4-oh instead
of the 3800 and running at a little higher rpm at highway speed it's not
quite as economical as the LeSabre's. I suppose if had kept looking
could have found one w/ different rear end ratio to lower that. But key
point is it isn't cramped...not sure what'll do when it reaches
200K--doesn't look like there will be a large vehicle at all on the
market by then w/ current trends.

--

On 10/25/2013 6:59 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
....

I learned a lesson on my Subaru about tire rotation. I waited about
twice as long to rotate the tires as I should've. It didn't take long
before tires started wearing really badly. The lesson I think is rotate
on schedule or not at all.

All rotating does is camouflage the wear by moving a given wear pattern
to another location. If the vehicle is set up properly and the tires
are properly inflated, they shouldn't have such differential wear.

Tires are one thing that have really improved over the years. It used to
be common to see people changing tires along the roads. It's fairly rare
now.

That depends on how many nails are in the roadways... On our country
roads there are always things every time they grade them chances are
pretty high of picking up something. It's rare to go a month without a
flat on at least one of the vehicles. Highway/town driving is far
safer from that standpoint -- I don't recall when I last had a flat on a
trip other than discovering a slow leak on second day out or so.

--

On 10/25/2013 2:11 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/25/2013 6:59 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
...

I learned a lesson on my Subaru about tire rotation. I waited about
twice as long to rotate the tires as I should've. It didn't take long
before tires started wearing really badly. The lesson I think is rotate
on schedule or not at all.

All rotating does is camouflage the wear by moving a given wear pattern
to another location. If the vehicle is set up properly and the tires
are properly inflated, they shouldn't have such differential wear.

I don't know where you are getting your info from, but considering that
on a FWD car the weight distribution is roughly 60-40, that puts most of
the vehicles weight on the front tires. Not to mention the front tires
are steering the vehicle and doing most of the braking putting even more
wear on the tires. Like I said, every single FWD car that I've owned
(including one of my current ones) have always worn down the front tires
quicker than the rears. And I'm not talking about wear patterns (I only
had that problem on a Honda Accord)...I'm talking about tread depth. Let
me Google something real quick...OK I'm back. Read this....

snip

Tire rotation or rotating tires is the practice of moving automobile
wheels and tires from one position on the car, to another, to ensure
even tire wear. Tire wear is uneven for any number of reasons. Even tire
wear is desirable to maintain consistent performance in the vehicle and
to extend the overall life of a set of tires.

By design, the weight on the front and rear axles differs which causes
uneven wear. With the majority of cars being front-engine cars, the
front axle typically bears more of the weight. For rear wheel drive
vehicles, the weight distribution between front and back approaches
50:50. Front-wheel drive vehicles also have the differential in front,
adding to the weight, with a typical weight distribution of no better
than 60:40. This means, all else being equal, the front tires wear out
at almost twice the rate of the rear wheels, especially when factoring
the additional stress that braking puts on the front tires. Thus, tire
rotation needs to occur more frequently for front-wheel drive vehicles.

snip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_rotation