We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?
--
Pete Cresswell

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:45:28 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company

to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at

any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair

costs.



My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.



This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of

anybody's service failing.



Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different

constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

--

Pete Cresswell

I doubt that the insurance offers are actually from the local water company..
My guess is that it’s a private company pretending to be your water company.
The usual problem with getting such insurance is:
1. They will not cover the entire cost but only a portion of it.
2. In the event of a problem they will be telling you which plumbing company you can use instead of you being able to shop around for a good deal and the plumbing company that they require you to use is going to charge you a whole lot of money.
3. The portion of the cost that they will not cover is about the same amount as what it would have cost you if you didn’t have insurance and had shopped around for a good deal. So now you paid all those premiums for nothing..

On Jun 18, 8:45*am, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?
--
Pete Cresswell

I think you've kind of answered your own question. The
water service could be anything from galvanized pipe,
to copper, or poly depending on the period and the location,
so it can be hard to compare results.
Given it's 60 years old, if it's made of galavanized, it could
be near it's EOL. If it's copper, it's likely fine. Can you see
what it is?

But since no neighbors are having problems, that's a
good sign. I'd do some math. This is like any
extended warranty. Figure out what it would cost if you
had to pay for it, vs how much it's going to cost for sure
with the plan over time.

On Jun 18, 7:45*am, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?
--
Pete Cresswell

Put the money in the bank, even at 0 interest rate, you'll be ahead.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:45:28 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company

to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at

any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair

costs.



My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.



This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of

anybody's service failing.



Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different

constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

--

Pete Cresswell

I doubt that the insurance offers are actually from the local water
company.
My guess is that it’s a private company pretending to be your water
company.
The usual problem with getting such insurance is:
1. They will not cover the entire cost but only a portion of it.
2. In the event of a problem they will be telling you which plumbing
company you can use instead of you being able to shop around for a good
deal and the plumbing company that they require you to use is going to
charge you a whole lot of money.
3. The portion of the cost that they will not cover is about the same
amount as what it would have cost you if you didn’t have insurance and had
shopped around for a good deal. So now you paid all those premiums for
nothing.

If you decide to pay for the insurance, get a copy of the policy before you
put out the money and read it in detail on what they cover and what they
don't. One area to check is where the pipe enters the house, do they replace
that and how far into the house do they go. Do they replace the driveway or
sidewalk or landscaping after they dig it up and within what timeframe (next
year?).

On 06/18/13 08:45 am, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

A few years back, the poly pipe started leaking right where it came
through the basement wall. Called a plumber, who had to wait while the
municipality sent somebody to turn off the water at the street. Then,
after they had fixed it (replaced a 6ft length or so by copper), they
had to wait for the inspector to check it and turn on the water again.
Total 3-4 hours, cost $500.

Haven't heard of any neighbors with the same problem, so our neighbors'
experience is not a good guide to what may happen with yours.

Perce

On 06/18/13 10:20 am, wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

Put the money in the bank, even at 0 interest rate, you'll be ahead.

Not if he has a repair bill for $500 or more (which is what ours cost a
few years back: see my other message in this thread) the next month.

Perce

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?


I've had a "service line" failure once in my entire life. It cost me
less then $111 to have it fixed.

What's happening around here is a similar thing but with the sewer
lines - for a few bucks a month you can buy insurance for the run from
your clean out to the property line where the city assumes
responsibility. I've never had to repair a sewer line in my entire
life. I did have a family with kids dig a BF-Hole in the back yard of
one of my rentals and expose the line. Luckily they didn't break it.

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

I've gotten these notices (Nevada). They appear to be some company
phishing for home owners to buy a policy. I put the notice in the
recycle bin.

On 6/18/2013 5:45 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

We just started getting these too. It's basically a scam, like AT&T's
inside wiring insurance. The water company gets a nice kickback from the
company providing the coverage.

Here's an article about it from the San Jose Murky News:
http://www.mercurynews.com/scott-herhold/ci_23379477/herhold-examine-that-water-pipe-insurance-pitch-carefully.

Several times I've seen problems with metal to PVC connection at the
meter and where the PVC connects into the house's copper. Even a barely
noticeable earthquake could cause this junction to fail. I would wager
that the company providing the coverage would claim that it was
improperly installed and hence not covered.

On 6/18/2013 8:01 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 06/18/13 10:20 am, wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

Put the money in the bank, even at 0 interest rate, you'll be ahead.

Not if he has a repair bill for $500 or more (which is what ours cost a
few years back: see my other message in this thread) the next month.

Actually, even at $500, you'll still probably be ahead, on average.

On 6/18/2013 8:42 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:

snip

What's happening around here is a similar thing but with the sewer
lines - for a few bucks a month you can buy insurance for the run from
your clean out to the property line where the city assumes
responsibility. I've never had to repair a sewer line in my entire
life. I did have a family with kids dig a BF-Hole in the back yard of
one of my rentals and expose the line. Luckily they didn't break it.

We have a neighbor who did have a sewer line fail. It was a huge project
to fix it, costing tens of thousands of dollars.

Water line failures tend to be minor repairs because the failure is
usually a PVC to copper (or galvanized) union in a place that's not
difficult to access.

At a rental I own, most of the units have had the PVC to copper union
crack. It's under a deck but easy to get to and replace. We've had
failures at the meter as well (PVC to galvanized pipe) and these are
pretty easy to get to as well though it tends to be muddy.

I wonder if the insurance would find some sort of reason to not pay to
repair these failures. It's a bad design that wasn't thought out well
considering ground shifting in earthquake country. The PVC gets a small
crack and a very thin stream of water shoots out. At the meter, we only
find out when the meter reader makes a note of it, but now with smart
water meters they don't even have to lift the concrete cover so they
wouldn't see a leak.

On 6/18/2013 5:45 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?
Most states have an insurance commissioner that licenses companies to
sell insurance in the state. I would mail the offer to the commissioner
and see if the company is legally allowed to sell insurance.

Paul

On 06/18/13 10:59 am, I wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

A few years back, the poly pipe started leaking right where it came
through the basement wall. Called a plumber, who had to wait while the
municipality sent somebody to turn off the water at the street. Then,
after they had fixed it (replaced a 6ft length or so by copper), they
had to wait for the inspector to check it and turn on the water again.
Total 3-4 hours, cost $500.

Haven't heard of any neighbors with the same problem, so our neighbors'
^^^^^
experience is not a good guide to what may happen with yours.

Correction: "your neighbors'" NOT "our neighbors'"

Perce

Per :
Given it's 60 years old, if it's made of galavanized, it could
be near it's EOL. If it's copper, it's likely fine. Can you see
what it is?

It's copper. The water company just replaced all of the mains and the
taps to each house were visible.

--
Pete Cresswell

On 6/18/2013 10:48 AM, sms wrote:
On 6/18/2013 8:42 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:

snip

What's happening around here is a similar thing but with the sewer
lines - for a few bucks a month you can buy insurance for the run from
your clean out to the property line where the city assumes
responsibility. I've never had to repair a sewer line in my entire
life. I did have a family with kids dig a BF-Hole in the back yard of
one of my rentals and expose the line. Luckily they didn't break it.

We have a neighbor who did have a sewer line fail. It was a huge project
to fix it, costing tens of thousands of dollars.

Water line failures tend to be minor repairs because the failure is
usually a PVC to copper (or galvanized) union in a place that's not
difficult to access.

At a rental I own, most of the units have had the PVC to copper union
crack. It's under a deck but easy to get to and replace. We've had
failures at the meter as well (PVC to galvanized pipe) and these are
pretty easy to get to as well though it tends to be muddy.

I wonder if the insurance would find some sort of reason to not pay to
repair these failures. It's a bad design that wasn't thought out well
considering ground shifting in earthquake country. The PVC gets a small
crack and a very thin stream of water shoots out. At the meter, we only
find out when the meter reader makes a note of it, but now with smart
water meters they don't even have to lift the concrete cover so they
wouldn't see a leak.


Insurance is for events that are unlikely, but expensive.
The insurer spreads the cost over many...taking a profit.
Insurance always costs more than the expected value of the repair.
That's where the profit comes from.
Any reason to deny a claim increases profit and is done with maximum
efficiency ;-)

My water service failed last month.
41 year old galvanized.
That's the fourth failure on this block that I know of.

Plumbing companies quoted $2500 and up.
Fly-by-Night plumber came in as low as $1500.
Plus $150 for building permits.
Plus $400 for the electrical grounding work needed.

I did it myself.
Cost me ~$100 in parts.
$150 permits
$380 to have them horizontal-drill the pipe under the yard.
Just couldn't bring myself to dig that trench.

Per mike:
Just couldn't bring myself to dig that trench.

I recently had a trench dug to run AC and Ethernet to the garden shed.

Solid shale. Quite a mess - and it's going to take a couple years
before it looks right.

I *really* wish I had known about horizontal drilling before doing that.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

I can think of three failures in my lifetime. All were in houses over
50 years old. Of the three, two were in winter and the water was
running and making an icy mess.

It can happen. So can a meteorite crash though your roof. I'd not
buy it.

"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

I'd guess the water company gets a cut but it's a cash cow
for the insurance company.

Never insure what you can afford to pay for yourself.

--
Dan Espen

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:42:36 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?


I've had a "service line" failure once in my entire life. It cost me
less then $111 to have it fixed.

What's happening around here is a similar thing but with the sewer
lines - for a few bucks a month you can buy insurance for the run from
your clean out to the property line where the city assumes
responsibility. I've never had to repair a sewer line in my entire
life. I did have a family with kids dig a BF-Hole in the back yard of
one of my rentals and expose the line. Luckily they didn't break it.

It wasnt' luck. They were plumbers-in-training and doing an
exploratory operation.

I have a friend whose toilet in the basement wasn't flushing right.
A local plumber with a good reputation locally told him he needed a
new sewer line to the street, but someone else told him to call the
city. The city came and cleaned out that part of that line which was
on public property and after that his drains worked fine. No charge
of course.

He complained to the plumber, for what that's worth, and probably
never hired him again.

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:52:09 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

I've gotten these notices (Nevada). They appear to be some company
phishing for home owners to buy a policy. I put the notice in the
recycle bin.

Does that mean they'll send the notice to someone else?

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:14:49 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

I'd guess the water company gets a cut but it's a cash cow
for the insurance company.



Never insure what you can afford to pay for yourself.

Exactly.

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

My experiance from the mains to the meter (including the meter) is the
untility's problem. Short of an over pressure condtion anything on my side
of the meter is my problem. I'm near 70 save some dumb contractor digging
up the yard we never had a problem with a water line.

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:45:28 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

I know of only two instances, both at my parents' old house. A 20+
year-old galvanized pipe became almost completely clogged but
didn't leak. Dad didn't know about copper pipe and didn't trust
plastic, so he put in another galvanized one (we kids did most of the
digging). That pipe developed tons of pinholes in a year, so Dad
finally gave in and bought PVC, probably because it was a lot
cheaper than copper. The PVC was still fine when the house was
sold, 15 years later. Neither pipe replacement took that long, but
things might be different in a colder climate with a deeper frost line.

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:46:32 -0500, "NotMe" wrote:




My experiance from the mains to the meter (including the meter) is the
untility's problem. Short of an over pressure condtion anything on my side
of the meter is my problem.

Not here or where I lived in the past. From the main in the street
was our responsibility.

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013 1:52:39 PM UTC-4, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 6/18/2013 5:45 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company

to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at

any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair

costs.



My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.



This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of

anybody's service failing.



Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different

constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

Most states have an insurance commissioner that licenses companies to

sell insurance in the state. I would mail the offer to the commissioner

and see if the company is legally allowed to sell insurance.



Paul

I'm not sure this is even insurance. Sounds more like
a service contract to me. Does every HVAC company that offers
a service contract have to conform to the laws and licensing
for insurance companies? Don't think so

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

Haven't heard of any neighbors with the same problem, so our
neighbors' experience is not a good guide to what may happen with
yours.

No, but YOUR experience is a good guide for your neighbors...

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:45:28 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

I'm in NYC and the Water Board (or Department of Environmental
Protection?) recently sent out letters offering insurance protection
(through a private company) for water main and/or sewer pipe. Our
houses are around 70 years old and maybe 10 years ago I heard water
running when no water was running and it was my connection to the
main. It cost around $3000 as I recall. It was called a Long Water
Treatment.

Repairing a sewer line is much more expensive but also less likely to
leak. Someone I know in DEP does recommend getting the insurance but
I'm only willing to do the sewer one.

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing.

Is there an average lifetime for this stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

Depends upon what material your pipes are made of.
It could be that your area has pipes made of tarred wood fiber which was
made by the Orangeburg Pipe Company up into the 1970s when PVC pipe took
over as a material for pipes. In recent years, this fibrous pipe began
to fail due to crushing, roots, and other wear and damage.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

"willshak" wrote in message
...
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
We've been getting these insurance offers from the local water company
to the effect that the service from the main to our house could fail at
any time and that we should pay a few bucks per month to avoid repair
costs.

My kneejerk is that this is a cash cow for the water company.

This neighborhood was built in the mid fifties. I've never heard of
anybody's service failing. Is there an average lifetime for this
stuff?... Or are there different
constructions/water compositions that make comparison impractical?

Depends upon what material your pipes are made of.
It could be that your area has pipes made of tarred wood fiber which was
made by the Orangeburg Pipe Company up into the 1970s when PVC pipe took
over as a material for pipes. In recent years, this fibrous pipe began to
fail due to crushing, roots, and other wear and damage.

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

You're right, of course. The folks offering the pipe "insurance" have
calculated the chance of failure for your area and have set their rates
accordingly. They'll do just fine.

If you're concerned about pipe (or any other) similar failure, the best way
to finance possible repairs is to self insure by putting the so-called
payment into a savings plan of some sort. Then you control it, make a
little on the savings and have it when you need it. Since you haven't heard
of any pipe failures, chances are you have time to accumulate enough money
before your particular chance of failure goes up.

But, it's hard to do and hard to keep up enthusiasm for the idea -- just
like setting up college funds, retirement funds and the like.

Tomsic

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 17:52:18 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:




You're right, of course. The folks offering the pipe "insurance" have
calculated the chance of failure for your area and have set their rates
accordingly. They'll do just fine.

Good to know. I was worried about them.


If you're concerned about pipe (or any other) similar failure, the best way
to finance possible repairs is to self insure by putting the so-called
payment into a savings plan of some sort. Then you control it, make a
little on the savings and have it when you need it. Since you haven't heard
of any pipe failures, chances are you have time to accumulate enough money
before your particular chance of failure goes up.

But, it's hard to do and hard to keep up enthusiasm for the idea -- just
like setting up college funds, retirement funds and the like.

Tomsic


When we had a young family, it was hard to save. Once you accumulate
from about $5000 to $10,000 in cash or easily liquidated assets, you
can cover most any household problem Appliance replacement, new roof,
deductible on car insurance, etc. Even $1000 covers 90% of your
potential problems.

Per Ed Pawlowski:
When we had a young family, it was hard to save. Once you accumulate
from about $5000 to $10,000 in cash or easily liquidated assets, you
can cover most any household problem Appliance replacement, new roof,
deductible on car insurance, etc. Even $1000 covers 90% of your
potential problems.

When I was stationed in Hawaii, I used to hitch-hike into Waikiki to go
surfing almost every day of the week.

Two rides still stand out in memory.

- The sixty-something guy driving a beater car with a bunch
of stainless steel cookware in the back seat ("RenaWare").

His story: "When I was young, I always drove a new car, always
had plenty money for the girls... and now I'm past retirement
age living hand-to-mouth selling cookware door-to-door".


- The somewhat-older guy (late seventies?) driving a new rental car
and staying in one of the better Waikiki hotels.

His story: "All my life I've been a bartender. No retirement plan
except for myself. I split every dollar I earned three ways: 1/3
for Uncle Sugar (taxes), 1/3 for savings, and 1/3 to live on.

I'm not rich by any means, but the world is my oyster."




--
Pete Cresswell