In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).

So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.

Here is a picture of the brown toilet bowl stains, after
scrubbing and household bleach - but before the first treatment:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667260.jpg

Here are the next three planned treatments:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667287.jpg

1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

Let me know if you have any suggestions before I conduct the
experiment.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:25:27 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).

So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.

Here is a picture of the brown toilet bowl stains, after
scrubbing and household bleach - but before the first treatment:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667260.jpg

Here are the next three planned treatments:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667287.jpg

1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

Let me know if you have any suggestions before I conduct the
experiment.

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid)

On 2013-04-11, Danny D. wrote:

1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

I'm definitely paying attention.

nb

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:42:54 -0700 Oren wrote:

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

Here's what I just did:
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667774.jpg

This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
I decided to apply the excess naval jelly to the yucky sink:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667775.jpg

I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.

PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:42:54 -0700 Oren wrote:

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.


The ball is in your court. Take as much time and expense as you need.

Here's what I just did:
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water

Sacrificial turkey baster to remove water below the bottom throat jet
in the bowl bottom. Add pool acid above that jet. Good. Use the pool
acid to clean it to dissolve minerals for a better flush.

3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel

.... bean counters. I provided a link (other thread) to be done in
short order.
..
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667774.jpg


Until you use muriatic acid in the bowl passage / jets, minerals and
slime will still cause stains in the bowl and come back sooner.
Minerals in the passage build up and prevent a good flow of water in
the jets.

What looks red like rust is cooties and not rust. Unless you have
heavy iron in the water.

This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
I decided to apply the excess naval jelly to the yucky sink:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667775.jpg

I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.


IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

Somebody created a monster? grin

The link again, skip to - Muriatic Acid Method.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

Neutralize with baking soda on septic systems and iron sewer drain
pipes before you flush.

Bowl passage jets are often "tear drop" shape. This creates the
vortex in the bowl for a better flush, when cleared of minerals and
cooties. The bottom jet starts the siphon action on flushing.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:46:06 +0000 notbob wrote:

I'm definitely paying attention.

Regarding the blackened bathroom sink, I left the phosphoric acid
on for an hour and then, with the drain open, I opened the faucet.

Almost no water went down the drain. Huh?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667858.jpg

Having never used the sink myself, I realized for the first time
the sink had been almost totally clogged, all along, so I plunged
it and black crud started bubbling up from the pipes below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667860.jpg

Soon, water was flowing again, such that I could see that the
naval jelly worked, for the most part, to remove the black stuff
and it does not seem to have damaged the nickel plated brass:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667861.jpg

Here is what it looks like, without any scrubbing, but with just
a wipedown with a wet towel (my sister was mad at me for ruining
one of her hand towels, but I am at her house and my bath towel
was already full of chemicals from the toilet bowl experiment):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667862.jpg

Now, it's time to flush the toilet of the phosphoric acid ...

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:30:28 -0700 Oren wrote:
IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

In retrospect, I agree.

1. I left the naval jelly on the toilet bowl for an hour:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667874.jpg

2. The towel maintained the right side as an experimental control:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667875.jpg

3. The results, after only flushing (no scrubbing), were not stellar:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667876.jpg

With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.

I'm reading up on Oren's suggested reference now & will report back:
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:30:28 -0700 Oren wrote:

What looks red like rust is cooties and not rust.
Unless you have heavy iron in the water.

The water out here is high in calcium (something like
15 ppm or so, IIRC) but there is no appreciable iron,
as you have already inferred.

So, I agree with you, since in prior experiments on tools,
we've determined that the phosphoric acid turns rusty tools
black in just a few minutes.

That didn't happen here - hence - I would agree with you.
That brown stuff isn't rust.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667907.jpg

I'm not sure 'what' it is - so I'll leave it at "cooties"
for now (but don't tell my sister that 'cuz I said it was rust).

Meanwhile ... I'm preparing the toilet bowl as I had not
realized I'll be flushing a gallon of HCl into the TOP
of the toilet bowl (I thought I was going to put it
directly in the bowl) ... so there's a bit more preparation
necessary.

Will report back as my sister is driving me crazy, looking over
my shoulder all the time. She keeps asking if I know what I'm
doing and why I have to be on the computer all the time if
everything is really under control ...

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:48:03 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

3. The results, after only flushing (no scrubbing), were not stellar:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667876.jpg


Because the bowl rim is full of cooties (red stuff). I don't know the
name for it other than that. It comes from the jets in the bowl rim. A
place that cannot be cleaned by conventional means. This causes the
vertical stains in the bowl - note they are more pronounced at the
top.

With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.

I'm reading up on Oren's suggested reference now & will report back:
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

If you follow the directions you will be safe (I skip a step about the
clear cover wrap over the bowl).

You will also see water in the bowl turn red from what washed out of
the bowl rim.

Local water here is heavy in calcium. If you have the same, before
you try - pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

On 4/11/2013 8:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:30:28 -0700 Oren wrote:
IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

In retrospect, I agree.

1. I left the naval jelly on the toilet bowl for an hour:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667874.jpg

2. The towel maintained the right side as an experimental control:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667875.jpg

3. The results, after only flushing (no scrubbing), were not stellar:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667876.jpg

Stain 1, naval jelly 0


With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.

I'm reading up on Oren's suggested reference now & will report back:
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:09:20 -0700 Oren wrote:

pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

Oh, it fizzled allriht!

I gathered the materials listed in Oren's instructions:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668150.jpg

I was going to use a protective facemask ... but they suck:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668070.jpg

I took off the cover of the toilet bowl tank:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668071.jpg

I wrapped the bowl with plastic wrap to keep fumes inside:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668073.jpg

The rubber tube on the funnel turned out to be useless:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668075.jpg

And, I started pouring 28% muriatic acid into the 'thing':
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668076.jpg

As Oren mentioned, it bubbled and hissed like a caged tiger:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668077.jpg

And bubbles were even forming in the toilet bowl tank itself:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668078.jpg

The vertical tube itself encrusted with white deposits bubbled:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668079.jpg

After about 1/4 gallon of 28% HCl, I baggied the vertical tube:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668080.jpg

The whole thing is bubbling away as we type:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668082.jpg

As I sit down to a belated dinner with my kid sister & progeny:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668081.jpg

(I will report back in about an hour - for better or worse.)

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 04:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:09:20 -0700 Oren wrote:

pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

Oh, it fizzled allriht!

I gathered the materials listed in Oren's instructions:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668150.jpg

I was going to use a protective facemask ... but they suck:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668070.jpg

I took off the cover of the toilet bowl tank:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668071.jpg

I wrapped the bowl with plastic wrap to keep fumes inside:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668073.jpg

The rubber tube on the funnel turned out to be useless:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668075.jpg

And, I started pouring 28% muriatic acid into the 'thing':
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668076.jpg

As Oren mentioned, it bubbled and hissed like a caged tiger:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668077.jpg

And bubbles were even forming in the toilet bowl tank itself:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668078.jpg

The vertical tube itself encrusted with white deposits bubbled:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668079.jpg

After about 1/4 gallon of 28% HCl, I baggied the vertical tube:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668080.jpg

The whole thing is bubbling away as we type:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668082.jpg

As I sit down to a belated dinner with my kid sister & progeny:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668081.jpg

(I will report back in about an hour - for better or worse.)

Before you flush, use the nylon toilet brush on the weakened stains.
They should brush right off.

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

An empty bowl without any water is best IMO.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:59:22 -0700 Oren wrote:

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

Ooops. I must have missed that step in the instructions.
Can you actually empty the bowl without emptying the tank?

Anyway, the deed is done.

After an hour of hissing and bubbling, I sprinkled the antidote:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...0/12668463.jpg

Of course, that initiated a new round of hissing and bubbling:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668464.jpg

After flushing a few times, I poured in the 12% pool bleach:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668465.jpg

Now the bowl is "almost" clean of the brown "cooties":
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668466.jpg

My sister wants to know why I still left a little bit ...
Rust 1, naval jelly 0
Rust 1, muriatic acid 10

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:59:22 -0700 Oren wrote:

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

A couple of minor questions ...

1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668520.jpg

2. What was that floating mat of greenish stuff in the end?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668463.jpg

3. Can you really empty the bowl WITHOUT emptying the tank?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668518.jpg

3. Why do the respirator masks have such crappy rubber bands?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668070.jpg

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:12:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:59:22 -0700 Oren wrote:

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

Ooops. I must have missed that step in the instructions.
Can you actually empty the bowl without emptying the tank?


Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Anyway, the deed is done.

After an hour of hissing and bubbling, I sprinkled the antidote:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...0/12668463.jpg

Of course, that initiated a new round of hissing and bubbling:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668464.jpg

After flushing a few times, I poured in the 12% pool bleach:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668465.jpg

Now the bowl is "almost" clean of the brown "cooties":
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668466.jpg

My sister wants to know why I still left a little bit ...
Rust 1, naval jelly 0
Rust 1, muriatic acid 10

Cooties 0, Acid 10

Pour a little more acid in the bowl and brush the bowl edges with the
nylon toilet brush - brush UNDER the rim also.

Looks good Danny!

Does the toilet flush with a strong vortex (swirl) and siphon?

If not empty, the bowl of water and fill with acid above the bottom
bowl siphon jet. Calcium cooties can restrict the flush siphon.

Yak done good.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:12:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

After flushing a few times, I poured in the 12% pool bleach:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668465.jpg

Oh, flush that bleach out. I recall bleach is bad in the tanks as it
can damage parts like rubber. Just saying...

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:26:27 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:59:22 -0700 Oren wrote:

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

A couple of minor questions ...

1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668520.jpg


You'll know. The bubbles from the baking soda stop reacting. It
settles down...

2. What was that floating mat of greenish stuff in the end?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668463.jpg

Cooties? Any copper parts on the flush valve? Just guessing there.

3. Can you really empty the bowl WITHOUT emptying the tank?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668518.jpg

Empty both when the water is turned off.

3. Why do the respirator masks have such crappy rubber bands?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668070.jpg

China?

On 2013-04-12, Oren wrote:

Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Gotta make a choice on that one, as lowering the water level too far
opens the water baffle (seal).....

http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/toilet-plumbing-diagram.gif

......thereby exposing the fruity aromas of yer sewar or cesspool to
yer delicate snozola. Yum!

Looks good Danny!

Yes it does, and many thanks go to Danny for that intrepid toilet
tutorial.

My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?

nb

On 12 Apr 2013 08:25:37 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2013-04-12, Oren wrote:

Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Gotta make a choice on that one, as lowering the water level too far
opens the water baffle (seal).....

How so? Without water in the tank or bowl, the flapper is still
closed. Water removed from the bowl is easily replaced with acid for
the short while it works on the minerals in the bottom siphon jet.

http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/toilet-plumbing-diagram.gif

.....thereby exposing the fruity aromas of yer sewar or cesspool to
yer delicate snozola. Yum!

The tank flapper is closed. Liquid acid still in the bowl. Look at the
trapway and the weir.

http://www.freediyhomeimprovement.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Toilet-Plumbing-Diagram.jpg

Looks good Danny!

Yes it does, and many thanks go to Danny for that intrepid toilet
tutorial.

My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?

nb

Danny can answer you, but I contend no damage to the finish glaze. His
example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

notbob wrote:

My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?


From what? The hydrochloric (muriatic) acid? Not a chance.

The glassy smooth surface is just that: glass. Acid - except hydrofloric -
is stored in glass containers (or, nowadays, plastic ones). One could also
use sulphuric (battery) acid. Or nitric. You could even mix up some aqua
regia (hydrochloric + nitric) and be good as gold. Except if the commode
was gold plated.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Danny D. wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:46:06 +0000 notbob wrote:

I'm definitely paying attention.

Regarding the blackened bathroom sink, I left the phosphoric acid
on for an hour and then, with the drain open, I opened the faucet.

Almost no water went down the drain. Huh?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667858.jpg

Having never used the sink myself, I realized for the first time
the sink had been almost totally clogged, all along, so I plunged
it and black crud started bubbling up from the pipes below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667860.jpg

Tell your sister to get a stainless steel mesh "stopper" for the sink
(HD/Lowes/etc) and to make her offspring empty it from time to time.

Alternatively, suggest that she use some Drano once in a while. Drano is
lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material and also
reacts strongly with the aluminum to create considerable heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:42:52 -0700 Oren wrote:

Pour a little more acid in the bowl and brush the bowl edges with the
nylon toilet brush - brush UNDER the rim also.

This is good advice as the experiment was done for the acid,
so there was no brushing yet ... just chemicals ... on purpose ...
so that we could tell which worked best
bleach -- useless for the brown stains
naval jelly -- nearly useless for the brown stains
pool acid -- perfect for the brown stains

Does the toilet flush with a strong vortex (swirl) and siphon?

Yes. But I noticed "other" toilets in her house which seem to
need "the cootie treatment", so, I told her I'd come back to
finish them off.

Any other ideas for experiments?

On 2013-04-12, Oren wrote:


example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

Good enough!

nb

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:25:37 +0000 notbob wrote:

http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/u...ng-diagram.gif

Excellent diagram!

I now understand, from the diagram, that I could have emptied the
bowl without emptying the tank.

One question about this diagram:

Where is that dark blue path of water in 'my' toilet bowl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12670635.png

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 02:23:15 -0700 Oren wrote:

My only question is: How did the porcelain fare?

Danny can answer you, but I contend no damage to the finish glaze. His
example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

I'd agree with Oren, but it's not all that easy to tell.

Certainly there were spots of smooth glaze afterward, but
there were also areas of roughness.

Since there were areas of smooth glaze, I'd have to assume
the porcelain was not damaged by an hour of 28% pool acid; and,
I'll assume, for now, that the rougher areas were simply coated
with Calcium deposits.

However, I'll take a closer look when I return to the scene of
the crime.

Here, by the way, is a composite before & after montage:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12670694.png

On 2013-04-12, Danny D. wrote:

I'll assume, for now, that the rougher areas were simply coated
with Calcium deposits.

Quite possible. That's one of the downsides of using bleach. It
doesn't alway "remove" the offending stained medium, it merely whitens
it. I've seen residual slime/mold turned white by bleaching action,
despite the slime/mold still being present.

nb

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:42:54 -0700 Oren wrote:

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

If it's dangerous, why do it at all.

I know there are non-dangerous things that work.

Looking at the pictures, that's not from urine, that's evaporated
water, maybe rust. There are special products for water residue,
which are not the 3 you mentioned afaicr.

I was in the previous thread and I recommended acidic toilet bowl
cleaner, but that was when you said your father didnt' flush the
toilet after peeing. So I was talking about precipitate from urine.

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

Here's what I just did:
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667774.jpg

This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
I decided to apply the excess naval jelly to the yucky sink:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667775.jpg

I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.

PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:48:05 -0700 Oren wrote:

Oh, flush that bleach out. I recall bleach is bad in the tanks as it
can damage parts like rubber.

Interestingly, the weak 4% household bleach didn't do anything
visible when poured directly into the bowl initially ... but ...
afterward, in the tank, the 3x stronger 12% pool bleach DID whiten
the remaining strands of brown stain!

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12671343.jpg

However, it might be that the pool acid somehow 'weakened' the
brown stain, such that the pool chlorine could attack it - or -
it could simply be that the pool chlorine was stronger than the
household bleach initially used.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:57:53 -0700 Oren wrote:

1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12668520.jpg

You'll know. The bubbles from the baking soda stop reacting.

Good point. My mistake.

I did NOT wait 'till the baking soda stopped reacting; so the
wastewater is likely a bit on the low pH side right about now...

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:07:44 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

On Apr 12, 9:34*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:07:44 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. *The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

I was wondering the same thing. Good thread, great pictures!!!

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:59:45 -0400 micky wrote:

I was in the previous thread and I recommended acidic toilet bowl
cleaner, but that was when you said your father didnt' flush the
toilet after peeing. So I was talking about precipitate from urine.

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

I'm not sure whom that comment is directed to, as I (Danny D.)
never intimated that urine was the cause of the brownish stains.

However, the thread you're referring to:
Remove brown toilet stains/deposits (8 Apr 2013 15:56:50 GMT)
was the impetus for this (separate) thread, regarding "my" brownish
reddish stains on my sister's toilet.

In my case, I do agree with you that urine doesn't come out of the
rim, and, from the before-and-after collage below, you can see the
brown-red stains clearly emanating from the underside of the rim:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12671545.jpg

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:25:27 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).

So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.

LESSONS LEARNED:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12671632.png

My sister's brownish reddish stains dripping down from the
toilet bowl rim were not removed with scrubbing, vinegar,
household bleach, or 20 minutes of naval jelly pink slime.

The stains were removed after an hour of 28% muriatic acid.

Subsequently, 15 minutes of 28% pool bleach had a whitening
effect - but I'm assuming that's a minor triumph.

No obvious damage appears to have been made to the smooth
toilet bowl glazing (although a survey of roughness should
have been made prior to the start of the experiment).

What was extremely surprising was that the plastic-wrap
method of containing the corrosive gases was effective!

At no point in time, other than when actually pouring the
hydrochloric acid into the refill tube, did I get a whiff
of the corrosive muriatic acid fumes.

The procedure actually followed was almost what Oren' had
suggested (with the one inadvertent mistake as I couldn't
figure out how to empty the bowl completely of water without
also emptying the tank, since the water supply was turned off).

EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDU
0. Safety goggles, gloves, mask, & spill towels were prepared.
1. The ceiling exhaust fan was running the entire experiment.
2. I shut off the water supply valve & flushed the toilet.
3. This left about 2 inches of residual water in the tank.
4. I sealed the bowl with three sheets of plastic wrap.
5. A plastic funnel was placed in the tank refill tube.
6. Approximately 1/4 to 1/2 gallon of pool acid was poured.
7. The refill tube was sandwich bagged, & rubber banded.
8. The acidic concoction was allowed to bubble for an hour.
9. A half cup of baking soda was sprinkled in the tank & bowl.
10. The water supply was turned back on & the toilet flushed.
11. A cup of pool bleach was poured in the tank & flushed.
12. My sister kept asking me if I knew what I was doing, and,
if I did, then why was it taking so long?

Before & after results are shown below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12671545.jpg

The dry stuff has aluminum pieces. The liquid is hydroxide only.
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:07:44 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic
matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

On Apr 11, 5:22*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:42:54 -0700 Oren wrote:

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... *BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

Here's what I just did:
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
* *http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667774.jpg

This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
I decided to apply the excess naval jelly to the yucky sink:
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12667775.jpg

I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.

PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
* * their teeth is beyond me!

THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS QUESTION UP!!

We have HARD well water and on a septic system. Based on comments
here, purchased muriatic acid at HD for around $5/gal ! We had one
wing of our home unused and all the water evaporated out of traps and
toilet bowls in that section. Hard as a rock brown crusty coating on
bowl. Turned on fan, held breath, and poured small amount of acid [??
1/2 cup] into the reduced water content bowl. WOW! foam and everything
just slid off. Used a plastic brush and scrubbed around completely
cleaning the bowl out.

Foaming continued for a while, but fumes weren't bad.

Neutralized with baking soda, now THAT foamed and foamed and foamed.
Used about 1/6 of the box! before foaming stopped when adding powder.
Now it's clean! Thanks again.

So armed with that I attacked 'my' toilet bowl [note one way to stay
married a long time is to ALWAYS have separate bathrooms] This bowl
only had slight brownish streaks in the bottom. But foamed up again.
Then while scrubbing out found what looked like two four inch long
angle brackets made of brownish calcium deposits. Obviiously up out of
sight from all previous cleanings. These were thick and glad whatever
that is is out of there. Again thanks for the thread.

That evening, I had severe nose bleeding. I'll bet the fumes took
their toll and I just did not notice. So, when people say avoid the
fumes, AVOID THE FUMES!

micky wrote:

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

Does if you **** in the tank

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:07:44 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic
material and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat
and frothing (within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of
the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

No water. The lye is solid.

Note: I'm talking about Drano in a can, not the bottled stuff.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

micky wrote:

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

If it's dangerous, why do it at all.


Because it's FUN! Why do people climb mountains, drive race cars, or join
the Marines? Because it's FUN!

Anything that can't be made to explode, fling a projectile over 1,000 feet,
posion the immediate environment, or cause dismemberment is considered WORK.

You'd think everybody would know that.

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:11:27 -0500 HeyBub wrote:

If it's dangerous, why do it at all.
Because it's FUN!

And, because we handle minor dangers every day,
first by asking for advice, from the experienced
team at a.h.r ... for example:
- Winding garage door torsion springs
- Clearing 4-inch thick poison oak with chainsaws
- Washing discolored swimming pool walls with acid
and yes ... the new minor mundane task of
- Cleaning toilet bowls of brown stains

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:25:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:


LESSONS LEARNED:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12671632.png

Danny,

What software are you using to make these composite photos?