Q: Does dilution of bleach actually affect it's stability over time?

My wife buys these Chlorox variations, so I decided to ask
Chlorox (800-292-2200 & 800-227-1860) what the percentage of
sodium hypochlorite was in their two products pictured below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12122385.jpg

The answer came back as follows:
a. 10% NaClO (pool bleach)
b. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Ultimate Care Bleach, UPC 44600-01692)
c. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Toilet Bowl Cleaner with Bleach, UPC 44600-00938)

When I mentioned my goal of using pool bleach, diluted to those
concentrations with tap water, they forewarned that diluting bleach
lowers its stability and effectiveness. Huh?

Specifically, they said that if I diluted 10% pool bleach, the resulting
solution would only be effective as a disinfectant for 24 hours.

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?

On Feb 5, 2:00*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Q: Does dilution of bleach actually affect it's stability over time?

My wife buys these Chlorox variations, so I decided to ask
Chlorox (800-292-2200 & 800-227-1860) what the percentage of
sodium hypochlorite was in their two products pictured below:
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12122385.jpg

The answer came back as follows:
a. 10% NaClO *(pool bleach)
b. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Ultimate Care Bleach, UPC 44600-01692)
c. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Toilet Bowl Cleaner with Bleach, UPC 44600-00938)

When I mentioned my goal of using pool bleach, diluted to those
concentrations with tap water, they forewarned that diluting bleach
lowers its stability and effectiveness. Huh?

Specifically, they said that if I diluted 10% pool bleach, the resulting
solution would only be effective as a disinfectant for 24 hours.

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?

That is news to me. The main component of any of the
bleach products is water. So, I would not expect that adding
pure water to it but otherwise keeping it stored the same
way would do anything to suddenly change it. It's possible
however that mineral components of typical tap water could
react with it to lower the effectivenss. The 24 hours part
is obviously total BS, because bleach is used in pools at
greatly reduced concentrations compared to what you're
doing and it's still effective as a disinfectant. In pools, the
main breakdown that renders it useless is caused by
sunlight. That's why stabilizer is added.

On 2/5/2013 11:00 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?

The first reaction is that they don't want people diluting $2.50/gallon
pool chlorine (I get 12%, not 10%) rather than buying significantly more
expensive Chlorox bleach. Even so, I'd be happy to dilute it as I use it.

All of the chlorine based products lose potency over time. That's
another reason I buy the pool chlorine in returnable bottles from the
pool store rather than the two gallon boxes sold at big box stores.
Besides the lower cost and higher concentration, it's delivered the day
after it's produced, it's not sitting outside at Home Depot for a
couple of weeks.

On 2/5/2013 2:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Q: Does dilution of bleach actually affect it's stability over time?

My wife buys these Chlorox variations, so I decided to ask
Chlorox (800-292-2200 & 800-227-1860) what the percentage of
sodium hypochlorite was in their two products pictured below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12122385.jpg

The answer came back as follows:
a. 10% NaClO (pool bleach)
b. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Ultimate Care Bleach, UPC 44600-01692)
c. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Toilet Bowl Cleaner with Bleach, UPC 44600-00938)

When I mentioned my goal of using pool bleach, diluted to those
concentrations with tap water, they forewarned that diluting bleach
lowers its stability and effectiveness. Huh?

Specifically, they said that if I diluted 10% pool bleach, the resulting
solution would only be effective as a disinfectant for 24 hours.

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?


Weaker solutions are more stable but there are other factors:

http://www.forceflow.com/hypochlorite/PioneerHypo.pdf

Tap water contains things like iron that catalyze decomposition.
You would want to use distilled or demineralized water for best stability.

Also note effect of pH. My tap water for example has pH of 6.5.

On 02/05/2013 11:00 AM, Danny D. wrote:
Q: Does dilution of bleach actually affect it's stability over time?

My wife buys these Chlorox variations, so I decided to ask
Chlorox (800-292-2200 & 800-227-1860) what the percentage of
sodium hypochlorite was in their two products pictured below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12122385.jpg

The answer came back as follows:
a. 10% NaClO (pool bleach)
b. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Ultimate Care Bleach, UPC 44600-01692)
c. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Toilet Bowl Cleaner with Bleach, UPC 44600-00938)

When I mentioned my goal of using pool bleach, diluted to those
concentrations with tap water, they forewarned that diluting bleach
lowers its stability and effectiveness. Huh?

Specifically, they said that if I diluted 10% pool bleach, the resulting
solution would only be effective as a disinfectant for 24 hours.

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?

They aren't going to give you a straight answer because it will give
away their trade "secret". I had a similar response from the Scotts
company in regards to their Weed-B-Gone chemical.

In response to my query about the dilution rate of the chemical in the
hose-end sprayer, they absolutely *REFUSED* to give me any useable
information. Instead, in their responses, they did nothing but me that
it was a violation of Federal law to reuse the contents in any manner
other than that which it was intended.

I kept asking them for a clarification, but they refused each time,
finally just ignoring my request for information.

In the end, I did my own research and solved the problem (I had to spray
from the container into a bucket to measure the dilution rate), but I
will never forget the absolutely TERRIBLE customer service I received
from Scotts company.

If anyone is interested, here is one of the email responses I got:

Jon, Weed B Gon MAX Ready Spray does not have a dilution rate. This
product is ready-to-spray, and does not require mixing or measuring.
Simply attach it to your hose and spray. It's automatically mixed with
water from your garden hose at the correct dilution rate. You cannot add
product to the sprayer and apply, since this container is not designed
to be used in this manner.

As a general rule, the label is the law. According to the EPA, applying
a product in a manner not specified by the product label is against the
law. For that reason, we cannot recommend a dilution rate for you.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact us and for your interest
in Scotts. Please feel free to contact our company anytime we may be of
assistance.

Kathleen Shreve
Consumer Response Representative
The Scotts Company and Subsidiaries
14111 Scottslawn Road
Marysville, OH 43041
800-225-2883

Jon

On Feb 5, 1:00 pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Q: Does dilution of bleach actually affect it's stability over time?

My wife buys these Chlorox variations, so I decided to ask
Chlorox (800-292-2200 & 800-227-1860) what the percentage of
sodium hypochlorite was in their two products pictured below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12122385.jpg

The answer came back as follows:
a. 10% NaClO (pool bleach)
b. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Ultimate Care Bleach, UPC 44600-01692)
c. 2.4% NaClO (Chlorox Toilet Bowl Cleaner with Bleach, UPC 44600-00938)

When I mentioned my goal of using pool bleach, diluted to those
concentrations with tap water, they forewarned that diluting bleach
lowers its stability and effectiveness. Huh?

Specifically, they said that if I diluted 10% pool bleach, the resulting
solution would only be effective as a disinfectant for 24 hours.

Q: Is that true?

Reading the labels, they list "inert ingredients", but I have to assume
that the "inert ingredient" is plain water. Isn't it?

If you google the phrase " bleach sodium hypochlorite " you
will find numerous links to learned sources discussing how it
works, how it is made, how to dilute it, etc.....

DannyD:

You should be aware that whenever you call any company's 1-800 customer service phone number, you're talking to someone that was hired off the street and given a 2 day training seminar that covered the proper use of all of the company's products. That is, these people only know what they managed to remember from that seminar, and seldom know more about the product than you do. If you have a question on any product, it's better to contact that company's sales representative in your area, and don't even bother phoning their 1-800 customer service line unless it's a technical support line manned by people knowledgeable about that product. Most times those 1-800 customer service people know precious little more about the product than anyone else.

If you want a stronger bleach, buy pool chlorination CRYSTALS and dissolve them in water when you need them. Pool chlorination crystals are potassium hypochlorite, KOCl, and are fairly stable as long as they're not dissolved in water. By ADDING chlorination crystals to water until they don't dissolve any more, you can make a much STRONGER oxidizing bleach. Wood workers will often use this trick if they want to remove the colour of the wood stain from stained wood. You could do much the same thing by pouring some ordinary bleach into some plates and saucers and waiting for the water to evaporate from the bleach. You will see clear/whitish crystals form as the water evaporates. These crystals will be NaOCl salts. Dissolve that NaOCl in ordinary bleach until it stops dissolving to make for a stronger NaOCl bleach.

Sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, is called an "oxidizing bleach" along with ozone (OOO) and Hydrogen Peroxide (HOOH). All of these oxidizing bleaches are inherently chemically unstable and gradually break down to form more stable compounds. And, as they break down, they produce lone oxygen atoms.

For example, NaOCl disassociates in water to form sodium ions (Na+) and hypochlorite ions (OCl-). Those hypochlorite ions subsequently break down to form a chlorine ion and a lone oxygen atom. So, Chlorox bleach gradually turns into Chlorox salt water and a whole mess of lone oxygen atom given sufficient time. If there's no unstable molecules for those oxygen atoms to react with, they're react with themselves to form oxygen gas (O2). Exactly the same thing happens with pool chlorination crystals, except that the KOCl crystals dissassociate in water to form K+ ions and hypochlorite ions (OCl-) and those hypochlorite ions subsequently break down to form chlorine ions and oxygen atoms.

Now, how to say this politely? Lone oxygen atoms are the horney drunken sailors of the chemical world. They'll react with anything that's unstable enough to react with them, and that generally means stuff that would break down chemically on it's own given time, and that generally means large organic molecules.

The way oxygen atoms work to remove the smell from the air (as in the case of ozone), remove the colour from your hair (as in the case of hydrogen peroxide) and remove the colour from a dyed fabric is by chemically reacting at various sites on large organic molecules and thereby breaking those large molecules into pieces. Since those pieces no longer affect our sense of smell or taste the way the original molecule did, bleach causes the smell or taste to disappear. Actually, all the stuff that made that smell is still wafting around in the air, but it's now in pieces of molecules instead of whole molecules.

Same thing happens when you pour some bleach on a dyed fabric. As the OCl- ions in the bleach break down to form chlorine ions and oxygen atoms, those oxygen atoms react at various sites on the dye molecules that colour the fabric, and break those dye molecules apart. So, after bleaching a coloured t-shirt, there will still be lots of dye molecules on the shirt, but they'll be in pieces and won't absorb the same wavelenghts of light that the original dye molecule did, thereby causing the colour on the shirt to disappear.

There's a common misconception that the sterilization/disinfecting effect of bleach (or the sterilizing effect of chlorination") comes from the chlorine ions, and that's just not true. If it were, then the salt water (that's full of chlorine ions) in every ocean in the world would have the same sterilizing/disinfecting effect as bleach, and everyone's swimsuits would be bleached white after their first swim in the ocean. It's actually the lone oxygen atoms that get spit out when hypochlorite ions break down that do the sterilizing and disinfecting (and removing odors, removing the colour of dyes and breaking down large unstable organic molecules in general). NOTHING, not even germs and viruses, can survive having the molecules they're made of being broken into pieces.

Since all oxidizing bleaches rely on the active ingredient spontaneously breaking down to form a more stable molecule (and spitting out an oxygen atom in the process), you can keep bleach and hydrogen peroxide fresher longer by keeping them in your fridge. Low temperatures reduce the rate of all chemical processes, including those where unstable molecules spontaneously break down to form more stable compounds.

So, the monkey that told you that once you dilute pool bleach with water, it would only remain effective for 24 hours was talking off the top of their head. You were asking them a question, so they figured they'd think up an answer for you, (as a service) to save you the bother of having to think up one yourself.

It IS true that bleach gradually breaks down to form salt water, and that as it does so it becomes progressively less and less effective as bleach, but I use one and two year old bleach all the time and I've never noticed any significant difference in the effectiveness of the bleach I'm using cuz of it's age. (I probably just use a bit MORE old bleach.)

I would interpret "inert ingredients" as everything else they might add to bleach that doesn't play a role in the production of those lone oxygen atoms in an oxidizing bleach. I expect they add some surfactants (soaps) to bleach so that the bleach wets the surface of the fabric better (and so that it's better absorbed into some fabrics). I also expect they might add some defoamers so that the jug of bleach won't foam if you shake it cuz of the soap in it. If the pool sterilizing bleach includes water as an "inert ingredient", I expect that the percentage inert ingredients would be close to 90% in a 10 percent bleach solution. If it's much lower than that, I'd presume they mean soaps, defoamers, and maybe some antifreeze to prevent the bleach from freezing if left outdoors over the winter.

There, now you know more about bleach than the person you were talking to on the phone.

PS: The different kinds of "oxidizing bleaches" have different effectiveness as bleaches only because NaOCl, HOOH and OOO are of different chemical stability, and so they each break down to form more stable compounds at different rates. Ozone is the most aggressive bleach because ozone molecules only last for a few hours in the air before they break down to form oxygen molecules and oxygen atoms. Sodium hypochlorite takes months to break down, and hydrogen peroxide takes years. This is why carpet cleaning contractors will use hydrogen peroxide to remove stains from carpets and draperies, but not bleach, even though the two chemicals remove stains in exactly the same way. Hydrogen peroxide just breaks down much slower, and that means it works more slowly, and that gives it a better chance of breaking apart the large organic molecules causing the stain (which would be the most unstable) before it starts breaking down the large organic dye molecules which give the carpet or drapery fabric it's colour.

On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:13:05 -0800, SMS wrote:

I buy the pool chlorine in returnable bottles from the
pool store rather than the two gallon boxes sold at big box stores.

Actually, because of YOU, I do too!

What I do is buy the HASA chlorine, in those yellow crates of four, using
the web coupons you turned me onto, at that little Saratoga store.

I take one gallon of that HASA stuff (in the white opaque bottles) and
pour it into that clear Home Depot bottle you saw in the pictures, to use
inside the house. The rest goes into the pool.

So, I use 12% also (although I base my dilution math on 10% for easier
numbers) - thanks, personally, to you!

On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:05:56 -0500, Frank wrote:

http://www.forceflow.com/hypochlorite/PioneerHypo.pdf

Wow. A gold mine in a single page PDF!

1. The more dilute, the more stable it is!
2. The colder the solution, the more stable it is.
3. The higher the pH (within reason), the more stable it is.
4. The less copper & iron, the more stable the solution.
5. The darker it's kept, the more stable it will be.

Thanks Frank!

That first conclusion is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Chlorox people
told me!

On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:29:36 -0800, Robert wrote:

If you google the phrase " bleach sodium hypochlorite " you will find
numerous links to learned sources discussing how it works, how it is
made, how to dilute it, etc.....

Think of sodium hypochlorite as table salt (NaCl) with an added oxygen
(NaClO). It is easy to see that the oxygen is easily lost, leaving salt
water. That lost oxygen is what disinfects. At any concentration.

Sodium hypochlorite slowly reacts with water to produce chlorine gas,
oxygen gas, and sodium hydroxide solution.

To stabilize sodium hypochlorite solutions, it helps to think of how it
was once manufactured. Salt water is electrolyzed to create chlorine gas
and sodium hydroxide solution. Those two products react together to
produce sodium hypochlorite.

So the stabilizing agent is sodium hydroxide. Any chlorine produced by
the dilution with water reacts with the lye to form more sodium
hypochlorite, and the equilibrium is moved far to the sodium hypochlorite
side of the reaction.

Dilute it with water, and add lye to raise the pH back up to 11.

Or, if the wife is using it in the toilet or otherwise diluting it just
before use, just use the straight pool chlorine, but cut the amount to a
quarter of what she normally uses (if you are starting with a 10%
solution).

On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 06:12:51 +0000, nestork wrote:

There, now you know more about bleach than the person you were talking
to on the phone.

Wow. Excellent information!

I especially enjoyed the explanation of why bleach bleaches the clothes,
without actually removing the molecules!

Thanks!

On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 08:41:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote in Re
How long is pool bleach stable when diluted with water in a
Chloroxbottle anyway?:

On Wed, 06 Feb 2013 06:12:51 +0000, nestork wrote:

There, now you know more about bleach than the person you were talking
to on the phone.

Wow. Excellent information!

Indeed. Thank you.

Keep in mind that small molecules tend to be more soluble in water than larger ones, so it's likely that those pieces of dye molecules will go into solution when the clothes are washed, but certainly not all of them.


To learn more about how cleaners actually work, spend a few evenings at the web site of the Soap and Detergent Manufacturer's Association website at:

[url=http://www.cleaninginstitute.org/]

PS:
Did you know that our word "soap" almost certainly comes from the name of Mount Sopa which lies not far from Rome?

During Roman times, Mount Sopa was the traditional place you went to ask a favour of the Gods and sacrifice a small animal to them in the hopes they would grant your request.

Roman women noticed that washing their clothes in the streams that ran off Mount Sopa after a rain would get those clothes cleaner than washing them anywhere else, or washing them at any other time.

It is now believed that the animal fat that dripped onto the sacrificial fires and combined with the ash of the burned wood formed a crude soap, which then dissolved in the rain water run-off to put some soap into the water the Roman women were using to wash their clothing. That's why the clothes were noticably cleaner.

It is also known that early Romans combined animal fats and lye to make a form of soap which they applied to their skin as an ointment, but there's no written record of them ever using that soap for cleaning purposes.