https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethano...energy_balance
http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/...-for-gasoline/
These web sites agree with you. I'll try the other argument, next. Oh, BTW,
I need to flame you, for showing me wrong. You're a usenet poster! So there!

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 30, 2012 3:19:33 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Ethanol requires fossil fuels to plant, harvest, transport, distil. Last
time I looked, it's energy negative. Takes more energy to produce, than
what
you get back.

Anywhere I look, corn ethanol is 10-30% energy POSITIVE. You must be reading
the feedlot operator propaganda.

Feedlot operators (i.e. people that raise animals for meat, and buy all
their feed instead of growing it) have been crying for the last few years
because the price of grains have been high, and they'll say/do anything to
get the price of grain back down in the toilet where it was.

Yeah, cheap feed makes maximum profits for the feedlot operators, but the
grain farmers take it on the chin, selling their product for mere pennies
over the cost of producing it!

Try the food vs. fuel argument next

In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

In article ,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:



Okay, but I was also talking about plants that could produce ethanol
energy
positive, so while I wouldn't mind seeing most of florida and louisiana
and
whoever else grows it turned into a big sugar cane plantation, we'll just
have
to use sugar beets, sunchokes, hemp and whatever else works until we can
grow
algae that feeds on oil spills and can then be converted to ethanol

Of course the main reason we don't use cane or beets is price supports
from the Government (which were continued by the farm bill). Sugar sells
for about 18 cents a pound while ethanol is at around 10 cents per pound
(of feedstock).

but don't price supports amount to "entitlements"

Yep, actually even more so than SS. I find it interesting that they
fully fund things like this while not even close to funding SS. And that
is a product of both parties over generations of politicians
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

In article ,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:

In article ,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:



Okay, but I was also talking about plants that could produce ethanol
energy positive, so while I wouldn't mind seeing most of florida and
louisiana and whoever else grows it turned into a big sugar cane
plantation, we'll just have to use sugar beets, sunchokes, hemp and
whatever else works until we can grow algae that feeds on oil spills
and can then be converted to ethanol

Of course the main reason we don't use cane or beets is price supports
from the Government (which were continued by the farm bill). Sugar sells
for about 18 cents a pound while ethanol is at around 10 cents per pound
(of feedstock).

but don't price supports amount to "entitlements"

Yep, actually even more so than SS. I find it interesting that they fully
fund things like this while not even close to funding SS. And that is a
product of both parties over generations of politicians

maybe they'll just fund SS with beets

On 12/3/2012 1:25 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Do the Canadians have "Affirmative Action" to gum up the works? I know
the British have a version of it know as "Positive Discrimination" which
I think is a more correct descriptive name for it because such policies
positively discriminate against the competent. O_o

TDD

How does "Affirmative Action" gum up the ethanol problem...other than
favoring
one group of rich republican businessmen over another?


ZOOMmmm Right over your pointy little head. ^_^

TDD

oh I was ignoring your traditional anti-white racism to see if you could
actually answer the question


Another moron who thinks Affirmative Action only applies to Negroes.
Typical P.L.L.C.F. who can't even define their favorite swear word
which is "racist". It must be a real trip to see the world as nothing
but racist. ^_^

TDD

like you?


I know darn well you can't define the word "racist" because you have NO
understanding what the word actually means and you will always misuse
it. ^_^

TDD

On 12/3/2012 6:13 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:



Okay, but I was also talking about plants that could produce ethanol energy
positive, so while I wouldn't mind seeing most of florida and louisiana and
whoever else grows it turned into a big sugar cane plantation, we'll just
have
to use sugar beets, sunchokes, hemp and whatever else works until we can grow
algae that feeds on oil spills and can then be converted to ethanol

Of course the main reason we don't use cane or beets is price supports
from the Government (which were continued by the farm bill). Sugar sells
for about 18 cents a pound while ethanol is at around 10 cents per pound
(of feedstock).


Kurt, are you familiar with switchgrass? It is a great source of plant
material that can be turned into ethanol and it needs no special care
to flourish. ^_^

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...anol-than-corn

http://tinyurl.com/om89r6

TDD

On 12/3/2012 1:24 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/2/2012 6:05 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

Lear Jet hell, private 757. ^_^

TDD

bigger plane but still the same distance


Like Air Force One which is kept airborne by the power of the Messiah.
^_^

TDD

Whereas those private 757 are kept aloft by the power of Lucifer


Yea, I'm a Devil worshiper. ^_^

TDD

is that supposed to be news to us?


You knew, which coven are you a member of? ^_^

TDD

we all knew


Oh, that's right, you're a member of the P.L.L.C.F. coven! ^_^

TDD

they still let you attend?


Of course not, I'm a heretic. ^_^

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Kurt, are you familiar with switchgrass? It is a great source of plant
material that can be turned into ethanol and it needs no special care
to flourish. ^_^

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...anol-than-corn

http://tinyurl.com/om89r6


Perhaps, but, as of today, there is no commercially feasible way to turn
switchgrass into ethanol.

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

not really, in their mattresses there is a greater possibility that it will
get
spent in the US, even if only because the mattress gets changed every week
with
the linen and they forget which mattress had the money


Interesting that you know the evil rich so well, you must be one of them
or a minion of the evil rich P.L.L.C.F. types. O_o

interesting that you know the covens so well, you must be part of one of them or
a minion of the evil rich

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

All new unfathomable technology is viewed as magic. ^_^

TDD

such a shame the conservs were counting on magic


You must be suffering from H.I.S.I., pronounced "hissy". It stands for
(H)umor (I)rony (S)arcasm (I)mpairment. People with that particular
mental disease are said to have H.I.S.I. fits and often put on a big
display of pseudo-intellectualism about the subject at hand when they
fail to see the humor or bizarreness of statements made by someone who
is attempting to pull their leg. H.I.S.I. seems to affect all people
of the P.L.L.C.F. ilk because they al

steps back three steps...yup, a perfect description of you

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

they still let you attend?


Of course not, I'm a heretic. ^_^

so you belong to the Utah branch?

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/3/2012 6:13 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote:



Okay, but I was also talking about plants that could produce ethanol
energy
positive, so while I wouldn't mind seeing most of florida and louisiana
and
whoever else grows it turned into a big sugar cane plantation, we'll just
have
to use sugar beets, sunchokes, hemp and whatever else works until we can
grow
algae that feeds on oil spills and can then be converted to ethanol

Of course the main reason we don't use cane or beets is price supports
from the Government (which were continued by the farm bill). Sugar sells
for about 18 cents a pound while ethanol is at around 10 cents per pound
(of feedstock).


Kurt, are you familiar with switchgrass? It is a great source of plant
material that can be turned into ethanol and it needs no special care
to flourish. ^_^

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ter-ethanol-th
an-corn

http://tinyurl.com/om89r6

TDD

aw, that's the one I kept thinking of but forgetting. Thanks

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

How does "Affirmative Action" gum up the ethanol problem...other than
favoring
one group of rich republican businessmen over another?


ZOOMmmm Right over your pointy little head. ^_^

TDD

oh I was ignoring your traditional anti-white racism to see if you could
actually answer the question


Another moron who thinks Affirmative Action only applies to Negroes.
Typical P.L.L.C.F. who can't even define their favorite swear word
which is "racist". It must be a real trip to see the world as nothing
but racist. ^_^

TDD

like you?


I know darn well you can't define the word "racist" because you have NO
understanding what the word actually means and you will always misuse
it. ^_^

TDD

I know darn well that you know nothing of or about me and my life experiences. I
commend you for living the white mans dream. But I still laugh at your arrogance

On 12/4/2012 5:25 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

How does "Affirmative Action" gum up the ethanol problem...other than
favoring
one group of rich republican businessmen over another?


ZOOMmmm Right over your pointy little head. ^_^

TDD

oh I was ignoring your traditional anti-white racism to see if you could
actually answer the question


Another moron who thinks Affirmative Action only applies to Negroes.
Typical P.L.L.C.F. who can't even define their favorite swear word
which is "racist". It must be a real trip to see the world as nothing
but racist. ^_^

TDD

like you?


I know darn well you can't define the word "racist" because you have NO
understanding what the word actually means and you will always misuse
it. ^_^

TDD

I know darn well that you know nothing of or about me and my life experiences. I
commend you for living the white mans dream. But I still laugh at your arrogance


Sorry, I don't live "The White Mans Dream" but it's odd that you accuse
me of behaving the same way you do. I must assume you're a P.L.L.C.F. by
your behavior and you may think I must hate those I disagree with but
that's where you are very wrong. Life would be very boring without
someone to debate. ^_^

TDD

On 12/4/2012 5:22 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

they still let you attend?


Of course not, I'm a heretic. ^_^

so you belong to the Utah branch?


Nope, The LA (Lower Alabama) branch started by my ancient Cavebilly
ancestors. ^_^

TDD

On 12/4/2012 5:22 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

All new unfathomable technology is viewed as magic. ^_^

TDD

such a shame the conservs were counting on magic


You must be suffering from H.I.S.I., pronounced "hissy". It stands for
(H)umor (I)rony (S)arcasm (I)mpairment. People with that particular
mental disease are said to have H.I.S.I. fits and often put on a big
display of pseudo-intellectualism about the subject at hand when they
fail to see the humor or bizarreness of statements made by someone who
is attempting to pull their leg. H.I.S.I. seems to affect all people
of the P.L.L.C.F. ilk because they al

steps back three steps...yup, a perfect description of you


Nope, those afflicted with H.I.S.I. deny having any mental illness. I,
on the other hand, freely admit to being bonkers. ^_^

TDD

On 12/4/2012 5:20 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

not really, in their mattresses there is a greater possibility that it will
get
spent in the US, even if only because the mattress gets changed every week
with
the linen and they forget which mattress had the money


Interesting that you know the evil rich so well, you must be one of them
or a minion of the evil rich P.L.L.C.F. types. O_o

interesting that you know the covens so well, you must be part of one of them or
a minion of the evil rich


I work for evil rich people because they have money. I do work for poor
people to help them out. ^_^

TDD

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I know darn well that you know nothing of or about me and my life
experiences. I
commend you for living the white mans dream. But I still laugh at your
arrogance


Sorry, I don't live "The White Mans Dream" but it's odd that you accuse
me of behaving the same way you do. I must assume you're a P.L.L.C.F. by
your behavior and you may think I must hate those I disagree with but
that's where you are very wrong. Life would be very boring without
someone to debate. ^_^

You know what they say about those that assume?

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/4/2012 5:22 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

All new unfathomable technology is viewed as magic. ^_^

TDD

such a shame the conservs were counting on magic


You must be suffering from H.I.S.I., pronounced "hissy". It stands for
(H)umor (I)rony (S)arcasm (I)mpairment. People with that particular
mental disease are said to have H.I.S.I. fits and often put on a big
display of pseudo-intellectualism about the subject at hand when they
fail to see the humor or bizarreness of statements made by someone who
is attempting to pull their leg. H.I.S.I. seems to affect all people
of the P.L.L.C.F. ilk because they al

steps back three steps...yup, a perfect description of you


Nope, those afflicted with H.I.S.I. deny having any mental illness. I,
on the other hand, freely admit to being bonkers. ^_^

TDD

which means that you are incapable of describing, much less understanding H.I.S.I

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/4/2012 5:20 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

not really, in their mattresses there is a greater possibility that it
will get spent in the US, even if only because the mattress gets changed
every week with the linen and they forget which mattress had the money


Interesting that you know the evil rich so well, you must be one of them
or a minion of the evil rich P.L.L.C.F. types. O_o

interesting that you know the covens so well, you must be part of one of
them or a minion of the evil rich


I work for evil rich people because they have money. I do work for poor
people to help them out. ^_^

TDD

loan broker?

wrote:

He has the Constitutional authority to veto the budget.

He does. But he must sign bills or veto them in whole. He doesn't have line
item authority. True, he could veto appropriation bills and shut down the
government like Clinton did, but he can only sign or veto what Congress gives
him.

And he *must* spend the money as ordered by Congress. No more, no less. So I
would be inclined to lay responsibility at Congress's doorstep, not the
president's.

Oh, that's right, there is no budget, thanks to your pal, Harry R.

There is no formally passed budget, but the president can't spend a dime that is
not authorized by Congress. See Article 1, Section9. So there have been an
endless series of continuing appropriations that simply keep doing business as
usual. Take a look at Article 1, Section 8 to see who has the power to borrow
money.

It is hard to lay blame solely on Mr. Reed, unless you believe he has some duty
to simply accept the Republican's approach to things. As you pointed out in
another post, the Constitution does not work that way.

-- Doug

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:44:49 -0500, krw wrote:

You to liars should get a room.

2 = two
Idiot!

On 12 Dec 2012 01:09:38 GMT, Normin wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:44:49 -0500, krw wrote:

You to liars should get a room.

2 = two
Idiot!

Tupo, bitch.

"Normin" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:44:49 -0500, krw wrote:

You to liars should get a room.

2 = two
Idiot!

Yes, it is an idiot.

On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:36:46 -0600, " Attila Iskander"
wrote:


"Normin" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:44:49 -0500, krw wrote:

You to liars should get a room.

2 = two
Idiot!

Yes, it is an idiot.

My, you just can't give it up. You should see a shrink about that.
You really do need help.

On 9/19/2015 4:40 PM, sms wrote:

I never understood how lower prices could clear out a glut. Other than
countries filling strategic oil reserves, to clear out a glut someone has to
stop pumping so much. People aren't going to rush out to buy 15MPG vehicles
just because oil prices are lower than what they've been.

Surely you jest? Look at how many people buy "half cars" (we call them
pickup trucks : ) despite the fact that they are no cheaper than
"whole cars" and will typically NOT be used *as* trucks (to haul
things).

Our 2003 model vehicle got better gas mileage than our 2016 model.
Because fuel costs are low enough that SWMBO could rationalize one
set of "requirements" over the previous set (fuel efficiency).

Folks still buy Hummers. I've never seen any one used as a light
utility vehicle!

On 09/19/2015 6:40 PM, sms wrote:
....

...Diversion of crops to ethanol has
tripled the price of grains.

Nonsense. Check the mercantile markets...corn closed yesterday CBOT
under US$3.80.
....

... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

....

I never understood how lower prices could clear out a glut. Other than
countries filling strategic oil reserves, to clear out a glut someone
has to stop pumping so much. ...

Checked out the employment figures and rig count in US oil patch
recently????

--

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 18:40:41 -0500, sms wrote:

On 11/30/2012 3:29 PM, Douglas Johnson wrote:
" wrote:

Ethanol is a big middle-finger to the Arab oil sheiks, and puts the
money in the pockets of good hard-working patriotic American farmers,
so I don't know why people get so hot over it...

How about the starving children, dying in Africa? Is that
a good enough reason? Diversion of crops to ethanol has
tripled the price of grains. That hits everyone from those
struggling in this country who buy corn flakes, to those
hungry children in Africa. Don't forget to factor in that
increased cost in corn flakes, beef, bread, and lives lost.

For once, we are in violent agreement. Corn based ethanol is a
disaster. We
are burning food.

But it's good for Archers Danial Midland and that's what matters. They
give a lot of money to Republicans in Congress to keep the Ethanol scam
and HFCS scams going strong.

Some cut.

The original post is from almost three years ago so I'm not sure who
wrote
what other than the last paragraph.
This is also from some time ago: http://preview.alturl.com/peu58
The short version is 3% of U.S. corn production is used directly for
human consumption.
Food grade corn requires special practices starting at planting.
It has to be isolated from neighboring corn by the use of isolation
rows, for example.
Some inflation adjusted pricing. The first is from the USDA going
back to 1910: http://preview.tinyurl.com/o49y2na Corn was at least
double the price back in the 1910s than it is now. The second he
http://preview.alturl.com/tuyki It goes back to 1981. It was higher
back then, inflation adjusted. There wasn't much in the way of
ethanol requirements back then if my memory is working.
The earliest I remember of ethanol was back in the mid 70s. It
was called gasohol. I think the Nebraska corn board was pushing
is as another outlet for corn production. There are 4,000
uses for corn now.
There isn't much irrigation in Illinois and Iowa, the two
largest corn producers. Drought hits, prices go up, Nebraska
farmers buy new equipment. Mrs. Farmer sees all that shiny stuff
and there is a new house going up, too.
Conventional wisdom among farmers is there is no feed value lost
through ethanol production. The cattle feeders use the distillers
grains to feed their critters.
This http://preview.tinyurl.com/pf398wq is from the Wisconsin
Farmers Union. It cites the United States Department of Agriculture
and compares what farmers receive compared to what consumers spend on
a few items.
Farmers are largely food consumers also nowadays. Farms of my
parents generation had some crops, some livestock, and gardens.
The women raised chickens for eggs and butchering. The runt of the
pig litter was bacon eventually. A steer would be hamburger when needed.
Those days are virtually gone now. The only livestock on many farms now
is the dog.
Consumers are spending a lot of money in restaurants according to
this: http://preview.alturl.com/3rogj



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?
--
Pete Cresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?

Yes.

We have a net energy shortage.
Right now, we're doing fine with food.

--
Dan Espen

On 12/1/2015 12:45 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?


Just think of the tractors going up and down
the fields. And then all the petroleum needed
to distil the alcohol. It's not a big energy
gain, at all.

And they could be growing pig feed corn with
all that land and petroleum.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 12/1/2015 10:09 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?

Yes.

We have a net energy shortage.
Right now, we're doing fine with food.

Explain that to starving populations.

mike writes:

On 12/1/2015 10:09 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?

Yes.

We have a net energy shortage.
Right now, we're doing fine with food.

Explain that to starving populations.

Can't argue with that.
Can't even make sense of that.

The USA exports 20% of it's corn production.
We're the world leader in corn production.
Most of these "starving populations" are living in
war zones. If you can figure out how to ship corn
there, more power to you.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/con...est-countries/

By all means, eating is way more important than reducing US dependence
on foreign oil. Unfortunately, I don't think stockpiling corn we can't
use is going to help.

--
Dan Espen

Dan Espen wrote:
mike writes:

On 12/1/2015 10:09 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?

Yes.

We have a net energy shortage.
Right now, we're doing fine with food.

Explain that to starving populations.

Can't argue with that.
Can't even make sense of that.

The USA exports 20% of it's corn production.
We're the world leader in corn production.
Most of these "starving populations" are living in
war zones. If you can figure out how to ship corn
there, more power to you.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/con...est-countries/

By all means, eating is way more important than reducing US dependence
on foreign oil. Unfortunately, I don't think stockpiling corn we can't
use is going to help.

Most new car owners manual mentions about Ethanol fuel as a warning.
My car runs poor unless high octane dino juice is fed. Can feel it
accelerates poor when merging into freeway.

On 12/1/2015 4:08 PM, mike wrote:
On 12/1/2015 10:09 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" writes:

Per dpb:
... Corn based ethanol is a disaster. We are burning food.

More nonsense...most of the corn converted to ethanol is being grown
specifically for the purpose.

But wouldn't that be taking land out of production for food-type crops ?

Yes.

We have a net energy shortage.
Right now, we're doing fine with food.

Explain that to starving populations.

Not that simple. We have starving people and we have surpluses of food.
We send food to other countries and no one ever gets it. We pay
farmers not to grow some crops. At least Reagan gave away cheese we
paid to store for no good reason. Maybe we should get rid of some of
the Dept. of Agriculture and farm subsidies.