Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames. In
other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the original
frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved can be
tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for the install.
Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window & frame depending if
your existing rough opening can not be matched up with _stock_ windows.
Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have unlimited
funds.

John Albert writes:

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original
windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement
windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something
like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl
replacements have similar longevity?

Vinyl never needs painting. Insulates better.
Not sure if they'll last more than 100 years, but
they don't show any signs of degrading...so far.

--
Dan Espen

John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Modern wood windows might not be as good as the old growth wood windows you
might have had origionally. Just something to include in your thoughts.

John Albert wrote in
. com:

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?


vinyl does not conduct heat as well as aluminum,so vinyl window frames will
have a higher R rating.

maybe lighter,too,so easier to raise and lower.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

John Albert wrote:
-snip-
got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

If you lived in the northeast you could pay for a new set of windows
of almost any description in a few years.


I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

There are vinyl *replacement* windows and vinyl windows for 'new
construction'. I don't like the looks of the replacement style
and have finally finished replacing all the windows in my 100 yr old
house over the past 25 years. All were 'new construction' windows.
More work, but a lot more flexible. Only 4-5 windows are anywhere
near the size of original windows.


My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

For replacement windows, I think *cheap* is the goal.


If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Probably not, but depending on where you live, they might pay for
themselves in a couple years and be 'making you money' after that.

Jim

On 5/9/2012 9:14 AM, John Albert wrote:
....

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

Very good...

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

Because they're cheaper and what most all the guys who do siding, etc.,
stock.

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

The do indeed, and many are. There are a (very) few that are actually
pretty good, but even they look like vinyl and completely out of place
on a vintage home.


What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

B.

On 5/9/2012 10:06 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
....

vinyl does not conduct heat as well as aluminum,so vinyl window frames will
have a higher R rating.

Not necessarily; there's a thermal break on an Al clad window; it'll
depend on the particular windows compared as to who wins.


maybe lighter,too,so easier to raise and lower.

They'll have the load matched to the weight just as any other window...

--

On Wed, 09 May 2012 10:14:23 -0400, John Albert
wrote:



My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?


Some look cheap, others look pretty good.

Vinyl has many advantages with insulating value, cost, ease of
installation, no maintenance, and best of all . . . no maintenance.
No painting, no patching.

The final decision will depends on your budget, style of house, and
personal preference. One big factor though, even a cheaply made vinyl
window will keep you warmer than old wooden double hungs from 60 or
100 years ago. If you want "the best" look at some of the upper cost
models and compare.

As for your roofer, it is easier to sell a Chevy than a Caddy so that
is what many window guys offer.

On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
.com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames. In
other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the original
frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved can be
tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for the install.
Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window & frame depending if
your existing rough opening can not be matched up with _stock_ windows.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.
Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have unlimited
funds.


With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

On Wed, 9 May 2012 07:43:22 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Modern wood windows might not be as good as the old growth wood windows you
might have had origionally. Just something to include in your thoughts.

Might?? Make that "definitely won't". Even if they are pressure
treated wood. I've seen a lot of Pellas that were JUNK in 15 years.
Andersens too.

On Wed, 09 May 2012 10:12:05 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 5/9/2012 9:14 AM, John Albert wrote:
...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

Very good...

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

Because they're cheaper and what most all the guys who do siding, etc.,
stock.

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

The do indeed, and many are. There are a (very) few that are actually
pretty good, but even they look like vinyl and completely out of place
on a vintage home.


What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

B.

...

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

Surely doubt it; many ads I see on TV are for replacing replacement
windows that haven't been there 25 yet, what more 100.

I'd seriously consider whether the existing windows _really_ need
replaced or simply repaired and perhaps refitted. This house is about
the same age (a couple years later) and when the folks retrofitted it in
the late 70s/early 80s replaced the old window weights w/ new sliding
self-raising tracks and refit the original windows w/ upper sash leaded
glass) and added modern storms for the energy savings.

Retains the character of the house _much_ better than throwing a plastic
window into a vintage building where it just looks cheap (irregardless
of how expensive it may be in reality).

I've been looking to redo an entry way that was originally just an
add-on porch and found that Pella can make new double glass hi-e windows
w/ all the modern features (tilt in clean, etc.) and still have genuine
leaded upper sashes to match the originals.

Not cheap, but surprisingly not _that_ much of a premium over the
standard...I don't have the datasheet at hand; I'll look up the series
and post later.

OBTW, the other hangup w/ the vinyl replacements is probably the trim,
both interior and exterior. Chances are you've got wide treatments and
perhaps even what would go for custom handwork in these days of minimize
any labor that you'll lose as well.

All in all, think carefully about this; aesthetics are important, too.
We used to carry a line of "archetectural" vinyl windows that looked
great in older homes. Can't remember the brand but I THINK they came
out of Quebec. Wood grain, stained, on the inside, and permacolour on
the outside to match the house - older colours of green, brown, ivory,
etc.

On Wed, 9 May 2012 17:52:52 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

They do have fiberglass models. Also, the aluminum separators in some
glass, use steel instead, for better thermal break. I have gone through
lesser quality model vinyl's to better ones, and the price differential was
not that much. Some installers use more expensive brands, but I don't know
if they are worth it.

Greg
The difference between crap and good is very small, cost-wize. From
good to very good a bit more, and from very good to crazy
over-the-top-fantastic is HUGE. And in many cases you pay for the
"perception".. You need to know what you are paying for. Anything
using Rehau extrusions is a quality window.

On Wed, 9 May 2012 12:02:31 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Judging by the brittleness of most plastic products after a few years in the
sun, I highly doubt that vinyl windows will hold up for 100 years.

GOOD vinyl likely will. Stuff made of recycled material definitely
will not (unless it lasts that long in the landfill)

On 5/9/2012 4:43 PM, wrote:
....

We used to carry a line of "archetectural" vinyl windows that looked
great in older homes. Can't remember the brand but I THINK they came
out of Quebec. Wood grain, stained, on the inside, and permacolour on
the outside to match the house - older colours of green, brown, ivory,
etc.

I guess the operative words there are "used to".

I've yet to see any vinyl (or fiberglass or other manmade substitute)
that really fits in a period architecture. They stick out like a sore
thumb no matter what.

There may somewhere be one that doesn't, but I've yet to see it.

--

On 5/9/2012 6:09 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/9/2012 4:43 PM, wrote:
...

We used to carry a line of "archetectural" vinyl windows that looked
great in older homes. Can't remember the brand but I THINK they came
out of Quebec. Wood grain, stained, on the inside, and permacolour on
the outside to match the house - older colours of green, brown, ivory,
etc.

I guess the operative words there are "used to".

I've yet to see any vinyl (or fiberglass or other manmade substitute)
that really fits in a period architecture. They stick out like a sore
thumb no matter what.

There may somewhere be one that doesn't, but I've yet to see it.

--


When I was in London I noticed the white vinyl really sticks out and
looks tacky on the old rustic buildings. The vinyl ones I got for my
house are the darkest I could find, and they blend in well, but they
don't look as nice as the old aluminum ones did.

John Albert wrote:

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

http://www.aamanet.org/upload/file/L...forman ce.pdf

The Proof Is In the Performance

The simple reason for this revolution is cost-effective performance,
which is the primary reason for specifying vinyl windows for residential
and light commercial projects. In addition to well-promoted consumer
benefits of economy and ease of maintenance, that performance is well
documented in several key areas of particular interest to architects and
specifiers, which are listed below and described in further detail later
in this article:

- Low Maintenance - Heat Build-Up Characteristics
- Energy Efficiency - Long-Term Durability
- Structural Strength - Green Building
- Weatherability - Lead Content
- Chemical Resistance - Dioxin Releases
- Fire Resistance - Solid Waste and Recyclability
- Impact Resistance - Design Flexibility
- Dimensional Stability - Exterior Colors and
- Thermal Expansion Interior Finishes

Low Maintenance

Perhaps the original benefit of vinyl windows that was heavily promoted
to the homeowner, low maintenance has been a prime factor in the
exploding market share that vinyl products have enjoyed – including
floors and wall coverings as well as windows and doors. With vinyl
windows, color can be integral to vinyl frames through the addition of
pigments to the vinyl formulation, not a surface coating, so there is
never a need for touch-up due to scratches. Extremely durable, vinyl
products resist rotting, chipping, peeling and corrosion, are not
susceptible to insect or fungus attack, and can be easily cleaned with a
solution of mild soap and warm water. In fact, vinyl’s ability to be
cleaned easily and thoroughly makes it a popular material for use in
hospitals and other health care environments.

The economic, durability and low maintenance attributes of vinyl windows
and doors led Habitat for Humanity International to choose them for its
volunteer-built homes for families in need. Due to ease of installation,
vinyl windows are ideally suited to the varying skill levels of the
thousands of workers involved in Habitat builds each year. Vinyl
building products are a cornerstone of affordable housing.

Energy Efficiency

Vinyl’s popularity in the U.S. is largely due to energy efficiency.
Because it is such an effective thermal insulator (having a low
U-factor, also known as U-value), vinyl is well recognized as an
excellent frame material for energyefficient windows. Currently, 43% of
the windows listed in the National Fenestration Rating Council (NFRC)
Certified Products Directory are framed with vinyl.

Many utilities are offering incentives to builders who install
energy-efficient windows in homes. Federal and state tax incentives also
offer rebates or special deductions for the use of these products. Vinyl
windows are commonly used to meet these requirements. The Department of
Energy’s (DOE) Energy Star® program sets forth climatedependent criteria
for window performance which are easily met by vinyl products.

All energy-saving glazing options are of course available in vinyl
windows: double or triple pane insulating glazing, with air or gas
(argon or krypton) infills, or low emissivity (“low-E”) coatings. The
latter are composed of an extremely thin layer of metal applied to glass
to maximize beneficial solar heat gain and reflect heat back into the
house. When applied to the outer pane (typically for use in hot
climates), low-E coating minimizes heat gain and reflects heat back
outdoors.

For example, the typical U-factor of vinyl window frames ranges from 0.3
to 0.5, with lower numbers meaning less heat flow and better thermal
performance. The ultimate goal – expressed in the U.S. Department of
Energy’s “2020 R&D Roadmap” – is to develop windows that have zero
annual energy cost. The industry already envisions “super windows” that
will use spectrally selective and automated electrochromatic glazing to
admit solar heat gain in winter to supplant heat loss and reflect heat
back outside in summer. The multi-chambered vinyl product frames are
designed to trap air, known to provide optimal insulating
characteristics against heat transfer year-round.

In addition to saving on home heating and cooling bills, the manufacture
of vinyl products takes relatively little energy. Production of all
vinyl products worldwide accounts for less than 0.3% of all oil and gas
consumption, with windows and doors accounting for a small fraction of
that. Vinyl Institute figures show that the use of vinyl as a
construction material actually saves more than 40 million barrels of oil
per year compared to other building and construction alternatives. Vinyl
products in general have low embodied energy, which is the amount of
energy used to convert raw material into a final product. A lifecycle
study by Franklin Associates has shown that the use of vinyl over
alternatives in window frames saves the United States nearly two
trillion BTUs of energy per year, enough to meet the yearly electrical
needs of 20,000 single-family homes.

(etc etc)

On 5/9/2012 6:21 PM, Home Guy wrote:
John Albert wrote:

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

http://www.aamanet.org/...Vinyl_Wind...erformance.pdf

The Proof Is In the Performance

....

Because it is such an effective thermal insulator (having a low
U-factor, also known as U-value), vinyl is well recognized as an
excellent frame material for energy efficient windows. Currently, 43% of
the windows listed in the National Fenestration Rating Council (NFRC)
Certified Products Directory are framed with vinyl.

That means that 57% aren't...

....

For example, the typical U-factor of vinyl window frames ranges from 0.3
to 0.5, with lower numbers meaning less heat flow and better thermal
performance....

The typical U-factor for a wood window frame is also in the above range.
At the last I saw, the ASHRAE Handbook doesn't distinguish in U
performance ratings between wood and vinyl frame materials; only between
them and Al and Al w/ thermal break. With double pane or more and hi-e
glass options, the ability of a wood or vinyl window's performance is
primarily owing to the selection of which glass, the number of panes and
similar design details.

It seems the above site is primarily the trade association for the vinyl
manufacturers; surely they're tooting their horn.

It boils down to cost is the driving factor at a given performance; a
wood window is more expensive. Then again, it looks like something a
vinyl window tries to imitate but invariably come up short against.

--

On Wed, 09 May 2012 10:14:23 -0400, John Albert
wrote:

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

What isn't made of vinyl or plastics these days?
If vinyl windows are as crappy as vinyl siding, I want no part of them.
And if you get them, be sure to never use the BBQ grill near them. Ever
seen what happens when a grill or any flame is near vinyl siding. I
have, the **** just melts.

My choice would be plain wood windows, with aluminum storm windows. But
do they still sell aluminum storms? I'm looking for 3 small aluminum
storms for my back porch. The big box stores dont have them. One guy
told me I will have to get them custom made, but could not tell me
where. Just the use of the word "custom" tells me they will be
extremely expensive.

I think they're something like 20 x 30 inches. I have four matching
much larger alum storm windows. I've been considering making my own
storms for the porch by taking these larger ones apart and cutting them
smaller, but it seems like a huge job. The frames look easy enough to
rebuild, but the windows themselves look a lot more complicated. I
almost think I could build wooden ones easier. The interior windows and
the frames are fine, it's just the storms that are rotting, and one
actually fell apart, so I had to cut strips of tin to keep it together.

As far as vinyl lasting 100 years, all I can say is dream on....
Plastics exposed to sunlight just fall apart over time.

On 5/9/2012 6:17 PM, gonjah wrote:
On 5/9/2012 6:09 PM, dpb wrote:
....

I've yet to see any vinyl (or fiberglass or other manmade substitute)
that really fits in a period architecture. They stick out like a sore
thumb no matter what.

There may somewhere be one that doesn't, but I've yet to see it.

....

When I was in London I noticed the white vinyl really sticks out and
looks tacky on the old rustic buildings. The vinyl ones I got for my
house are the darkest I could find, and they blend in well, but they
don't look as nice as the old aluminum ones did.

I didn't notice them enough in London to make an impression--then again,
the time in London was all spent in the historic areas that are pretty
much controlled as to what restoration must do to preserve appearances.

I did notice in the time in and around Rochester/Chatham area where have
spent quite a lot of time that in residences where weren't so controlled
they seemed to pop up in retrofits that were often glaringly out of
place, indeed. At least there didn't seem to be much of the g-awful
vinyl siding...

I intend to eliminate the Al storms used when did the retrofit on this
old farm house in favor of a traditional look when do the entry. Will
likely also take the wide steel siding back off and revert to a narrow 3
to 4" siding to bring back the look of the original as nearly as
possible. An old farm house ought to look like an old farm house,
particularly on it's 100th b-day which is just a couple years away. I'm
hoping to have it all spruced and be able to compare photo's to the ones
have when it was nearly new taken some time in the early 20s.

--

wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original
windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement
windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows
with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl
replacements have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames.
In other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the
original frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

Wrong, no wonder you worked for "2", probably got fired from them both.
Doesn't sound like you have much experience.


If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved
can be tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for
the install. Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window &
frame depending if your existing rough opening can not be matched up
with _stock_ windows.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.

Make up your mind. First you say you make the window to fit the hole, then
you say you don't. Sorry I said you sound like you didn't have "much
experience", you now sound like you don't have _ANY_ experience. Fact is, I
was speaking of new construction windows with wooden sashes. Most vinyl
windows custom to fit the hole, but you can buy stock size vinyl windows.
Think this one was over your head also.


Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the
interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have
unlimited funds.


With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

You still gotta make them weather tight, but sounds like you are one of
those caulk crazies, instead of custom brake work.

On Thu, 10 May 2012 17:44:23 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:



wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original
windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement
windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows
with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl
replacements have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames.
In other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the
original frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

Wrong, no wonder you worked for "2", probably got fired from them both.
Doesn't sound like you have much experience.


Not fired from either, and I wasn't an installer - but I DID install
all of my own - total frame out. All the "quality" window replacement
companies here highly recommend the full frame out. The "we can do it
cheaper" guys do the inserts. May be different in other areas - but
here, where brick veneer houses are common there is no siding issue -
and on the upper story of my house with aluminum siding I didn't touch
the siding. The secret is proper measurement and getting the windows
made to fit PRECISELY into the opening.

In some cases the brick molding option allows you to install into a
less than perfect opening, with the brick-mold covering the edge.

When you see my house, and the houses the two companies I worked for
did the install on, you don't even think "windows replaced". You think
the windows have stood up exceptionally well.

The only opening in my house that was done with an "insert" was the
back patio door, replaced about 25 or more years ago, about 5 years
after I bought the house. There was a bad leak. the door HAD to be
replaced and nobody stocked the proper size for a frame-out - and I
wasn't willing to wait for a custom order. If I was doing it again
I'd have put in plywood untill the custom fit door was delivered.

If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved
can be tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for
the install. Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window &
frame depending if your existing rough opening can not be matched up
with _stock_ windows.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.

Make up your mind. First you say you make the window to fit the hole, then
you say you don't. Sorry I said you sound like you didn't have "much
experience", you now sound like you don't have _ANY_ experience. Fact is, I
was speaking of new construction windows with wooden sashes. Most vinyl
windows custom to fit the hole, but you can buy stock size vinyl windows.
Think this one was over your head also.


Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the
interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have
unlimited funds.


With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

You still gotta make them weather tight, but sounds like you are one of
those caulk crazies, instead of custom brake work.

"Stubby" wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original
windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement
windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows
with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl
replacements have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames.
In other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the
original frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

Wrong, no wonder you worked for "2", probably got fired from them both.
Doesn't sound like you have much experience.


If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved
can be tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for
the install. Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window &
frame depending if your existing rough opening can not be matched up
with _stock_ windows.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.

Make up your mind. First you say you make the window to fit the hole, then
you say you don't. Sorry I said you sound like you didn't have "much
experience", you now sound like you don't have _ANY_ experience. Fact is, I
was speaking of new construction windows with wooden sashes. Most vinyl
windows custom to fit the hole, but you can buy stock size vinyl windows.
Think this one was over your head also.


Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the
interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have
unlimited funds.


With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

You still gotta make them weather tight, but sounds like you are one of
those caulk crazies, instead of custom brake work.

I used cut pieces of vinyl glued on to fill gaps. That's after proper
adding insulation and sealing cracks. I usually spend about 4 hours or more
on each window in a brick home. I like inside window sills. Most companies
will bring the window inward to make it easier to install. I have to add
side plates insulated with foam to do my thing. I have had some trouble,
including installation companies, by not making sure sliders have not
sagged down in the middle, making it difficult to take out the windows.

Greg

On Thu, 10 May 2012 02:09:23 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 09 May 2012 10:14:23 -0400, John Albert
wrote:

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

What isn't made of vinyl or plastics these days?
If vinyl windows are as crappy as vinyl siding, I want no part of them.
And if you get them, be sure to never use the BBQ grill near them. Ever
seen what happens when a grill or any flame is near vinyl siding. I
have, the **** just melts.

Sounds like you're trying to set your house on fire.

My choice would be plain wood windows, with aluminum storm windows. But
do they still sell aluminum storms? I'm looking for 3 small aluminum
storms for my back porch. The big box stores dont have them. One guy
told me I will have to get them custom made, but could not tell me
where. Just the use of the word "custom" tells me they will be
extremely expensive.

Aluminum storm widows suck. Wood core, vinyl-clad, frames with double-pane
windows (add low-E options as the budget allows) are far better. Forget storm
windows altogether.

I think they're something like 20 x 30 inches. I have four matching
much larger alum storm windows. I've been considering making my own
storms for the porch by taking these larger ones apart and cutting them
smaller, but it seems like a huge job. The frames look easy enough to
rebuild, but the windows themselves look a lot more complicated. I
almost think I could build wooden ones easier. The interior windows and
the frames are fine, it's just the storms that are rotting, and one
actually fell apart, so I had to cut strips of tin to keep it together.

As far as vinyl lasting 100 years, all I can say is dream on....
Plastics exposed to sunlight just fall apart over time.

Not so much.

On Fri, 11 May 2012 01:15:21 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Stubby" wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original
windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement
windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows
with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl
replacements have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames.
In other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the
original frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

Wrong, no wonder you worked for "2", probably got fired from them both.
Doesn't sound like you have much experience.


If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved
can be tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for
the install. Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window &
frame depending if your existing rough opening can not be matched up
with _stock_ windows.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.

Make up your mind. First you say you make the window to fit the hole, then
you say you don't. Sorry I said you sound like you didn't have "much
experience", you now sound like you don't have _ANY_ experience. Fact is, I
was speaking of new construction windows with wooden sashes. Most vinyl
windows custom to fit the hole, but you can buy stock size vinyl windows.
Think this one was over your head also.


Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the
interior.

Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have
unlimited funds.


With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

You still gotta make them weather tight, but sounds like you are one of
those caulk crazies, instead of custom brake work.

I used cut pieces of vinyl glued on to fill gaps. That's after proper
adding insulation and sealing cracks. I usually spend about 4 hours or more
on each window in a brick home. I like inside window sills. Most companies
will bring the window inward to make it easier to install. I have to add
side plates insulated with foam to do my thing. I have had some trouble,
including installation companies, by not making sure sliders have not
sagged down in the middle, making it difficult to take out the windows.

Greg
Mine didn't need ANY cut pieces, or break work. The windows were
mounted with spray foam (low expanding - the proper stuff for the job)
to make them air tight, and the gap to be sealed on the outside with
caulk was less than 1/2 inch. Significantly less. The inside jams
were custom cut onsite by myself to EXACTLY fill the gap between the
vinyl window and the original interior window trim. A very small
amount of wood filler and a coat of paint and they look like they have
been there since the house was built - both inside and out.

Mine are all ( the ones I replaced myself) double side sliders. Swing
in for cleaning. Rehau product - about the best you could buy 13 years
ago.

I did not do the 2 windows in the brick at the back of the house -
bathroom and kitchen - the kitchen replaced with a fixed pane instead
of a slider. The company I hired to do the job wanted to do inserts,
and I said no way - do them the way I want them done - the kitchen
window was a tricky job due to the way the cabinets had been fitted
around the window. I went over the measurements and product specs with
them - when they popped the old windows out and saw what I knew from
removing the other windows, they were glad they DID do them that way.
They said afterwards it was half the work it would have been to do
them as inserts, and again, they just look like they have been there
from the very beginning.

I also did all the upstairs windows in the neighbour's house - same
construction as mine - same crappy original contract windows. Exactly
the same windows put in my house - even the same size - exactly. The
crew from the company I worked for at the time installed the patio
door and the 3 windows in the brick downstairs. I was in charge of a
total renovation of the house at that time while the neighbour - a
university prof, was on sabatical in Sweden. We designed the kitchen
by e-mail - removed all the carpet and wallpaper, put in hardwood
floors and repainted the complete interior (dust alergies) - and they
were totally ipressed when the came home about a week after we
finished the job. When they put an addition on back in 2003 I acted
as project manager and spec'd the window to use at the front to match
the others. They put in a totally different window - which looked
TOTALLY out of place - I told them to tear it out and install the spec
window to match the other 3. You would now be hard pressed to realize,
visually, that there is an addition on the house. The spacing between
the extra window and the originals is off by a couple of inches -
Everthing looks like it was built at the same time - and the windows
look like they have been there all along. If you look real close, the
window in the addition is about 3/8 inch farther out than the rest,
but you really need to KNOW it to see it.

On May 9, 7:14*am, John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Read the last paragraph of this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_roof

All this talk about repl/new windows! My vinyls have been in my house for 20 years, mint condition. They're so efficient all they did was turn my house into a chimney! *All the heat was rising up through the attic.

I had to beef up my attic insulation to match, and now the boiler runs about 1/3 as long as it used to.

Lesson? Heat RISES . Very little escapes sideways, through windows. *So insulate that attic, the floor only, unless it will be lived in. *Repair cracked plaster ceilings or replace with sheetrock. *This will eliminate drafts creating the illusion of worn out windows & doors.

And only then, replace windows when they are really loose or dont stay up. *Better off repairing/retrofitting doors - a lot more "drafts" can be eliminated that way.

#1. Insulate attic & tighten up ceilings.($$)

#2. Doors.($$$$)

#3. Windows($$$$$$!)

On May 9, 10:14*am, John Albert wrote:
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

You need windows that will prevent radioactive penetration from
nuclear fallouts. bring the war home to destroy these capitalist
****bag universities that have enslaved the US and exterminated the
natives.

Ooookay..

wrote:
On Fri, 11 May 2012 01:15:21 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Stubby" wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:


"John Albert" wrote in message
. com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the



I did not do the 2 windows in the brick at the back of the house -
bathroom and kitchen - the kitchen replaced with a fixed pane instead
of a slider. The company I hired to do the job wanted to do inserts,
and I said no way - do them the way I want them done - the kitchen
window was a tricky job due to the way the cabinets had been fitted
around the window. I went over the measurements and product specs with
them - when they popped the old windows out and saw what I knew from
removing the other windows, they were glad they DID do them that way.
They said afterwards it was half the work it would have been to do
them as inserts, and again, they just look like they have been there
from the very beginning.

I also did all the upstairs windows in the neighbour's house - same
construction as mine - same crappy original contract windows. Exactly
the same windows put in my house - even the same size - exactly. The
crew from the company I worked for at the time installed the patio
door and the 3 windows in the brick downstairs. I was in charge of a
total renovation of the house at that time while the neighbour - a
university prof, was on sabatical in Sweden. We designed the kitchen
by e-mail - removed all the carpet and wallpaper, put in hardwood
floors and repainted the complete interior (dust alergies) - and they
were totally ipressed when the came home about a week after we
finished the job. When they put an addition on back in 2003 I acted
as project manager and spec'd the window to use at the front to match
the others. They put in a totally different window - which looked
TOTALLY out of place - I told them to tear it out and install the spec
window to match the other 3. You would now be hard pressed to realize,
visually, that there is an addition on the house. The spacing between
the extra window and the originals is off by a couple of inches -
Everthing looks like it was built at the same time - and the windows
look like they have been there all along. If you look real close, the
window in the addition is about 3/8 inch farther out than the rest,
but you really need to KNOW it to see it.

Without tearing off the wooden moulding on the outside, I could not order
custom sized ones. I had no idea what was under that. I could then see what
was behind the bricks.

Greg

On Thu, 10 May 2012 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On May 9, 5:38Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:

"John Albert" wrote in message
.com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames. In
other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the original
frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.



If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved can be
tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for the install.
Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window & frame depending if
your existing rough opening can not be matched up with _stock_ windows.

When I bought my VR windows through Simonton, there wasn't any such
thing as "stock" windows.

I supplied my RO measurements to the dealer (a local Norandex
Reynolds) and they custom made every window. They have stock sizes
like a HD or Lowes might have and the price/quality was better than
anything I could have special ordered from the borg.


The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.
Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the interior.

You misunderstood, unless I'm misunderstanding you. I said if you use
a stock sized window and make it fit the hole instead of having proper
sized windows made TO fit the hole, it will usually mean extra work
both inside and outside.

Why does a window made to "fit the hole" mean more work on the
exterior an interior?
If you make a stock window fit a non-standard opening, you will need
to re-trim inside and out.

Pull the interior stops, take out the old window, tilt the new window
into the hole up against the original stops, and replace the interior
trim.

Exactly the same procedure for installing "total replacement" windows
except you remove the entire jam instead of just the sash and stops.

ALL of my original interior trim went right back on, with no trim work
on the outside either.

Sure, I left out all the insulating, caulking, shimming steps, but I
don't know why you say windows made to fit the hole mean more work
inside and out.

If you make a window fit the hole, instead of making a window the
correct size to fit the hole, you are modifying something to make it
fit.


Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have unlimited
funds.

With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??

On Fri, 11 May 2012 03:11:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All this talk about repl/new windows! My vinyls have been in my house for 20 years, mint condition. They're so efficient all they did was turn my house into a chimney! Â*All the heat was rising up through the attic.

I had to beef up my attic insulation to match, and now the boiler runs about 1/3 as long as it used to.

Lesson? Heat RISES . Very little escapes sideways, through windows. Â*So insulate that attic, the floor only, unless it will be lived in. Â*Repair cracked plaster ceilings or replace with sheetrock. Â*This will eliminate drafts creating the illusion of worn out windows & doors.

And only then, replace windows when they are really loose or dont stay up. Â*Better off repairing/retrofitting doors - a lot more "drafts" can be eliminated that way.

#1. Insulate attic & tighten up ceilings.($$)

#2. Doors.($$$$)

#3. Windows($$$$$$!)
Unless you house has those crappy sashless windows that were so
common in the sixties and seventies - or the crappy aluminum framed
loose-fit sliders form the same era, or the wood frames (jams) have
ratted - which is a common occurence - in which case installing
"inserts" is a loosing battle and totally foolhardy.

Installing "inserts" in the windows of this house would have been a
real exercise in futility. Putting in custom built "new construction"
windows was a cinch, in comparison

On Wed, 09 May 2012 10:14:23 -0400, John Albert
wrote:

Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the
original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do
it does windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl
replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by
their construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want
something like Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden
windows with aluminum cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need
of replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will
vinyl replacements have similar longevity?

Don't know if any other responders mentioned this but others are
right... vinyl replacements can look cheap and terrible or pretty darn
normal and original. My guess is that it is based on cost.

At my own home I wanted the original 8 over 8 double hung so I used a
system called "Bi-Glass" that I saw on This Old House. They use the
original frames and sash but route them out and install double paned
glass along with new side rails. They look like original (cause most
of them are original) and still do a very respectable job of
insulating.

Good luck -

On Mon, 14 May 2012 23:08:09 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 11 May 2012 03:11:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

All this talk about repl/new windows! My vinyls have been in my house for 20 years, mint condition. They're so efficient all they did was turn my house into a chimney! Â*All the heat was rising up through the attic.

I had to beef up my attic insulation to match, and now the boiler runs about 1/3 as long as it used to.

Lesson? Heat RISES . Very little escapes sideways, through windows. Â*So insulate that attic, the floor only, unless it will be lived in. Â*Repair cracked plaster ceilings or replace with sheetrock. Â*This will eliminate drafts creating the illusion of worn out windows & doors.

And only then, replace windows when they are really loose or dont stay up. Â*Better off repairing/retrofitting doors - a lot more "drafts" can be eliminated that way.

#1. Insulate attic & tighten up ceilings.($$)

#2. Doors.($$$$)

#3. Windows($$$$$$!)
Unless you house has those crappy sashless windows that were so
common in the sixties and seventies - or the crappy aluminum framed
loose-fit sliders form the same era, or the wood frames (jams) have
ratted - which is a common occurence - in which case installing
"inserts" is a loosing battle and totally foolhardy.


My brick house had standard wood double-hungs.
And aluminum triple track storms.
Had all that removed, and vinyl thermal-glass crank-out inserts put
in.
It was all simple and clean.
They pulled the storms, outside blind stops, and removed the window
sashes from the outside.
They filled all voids in the existing and sound frame with fiberglass.
(The old windows had side springs, not sash weights.)
They braked and nailed in aluminum flashing on the old frame.
The inserts fit in flush against the inner stops, which were never
even disturbed. 2 screws per side on the inside fastened the insert
to the frame. They shot foam in, but not much because there was
hardly any gap.
Then a thin bead of caulk all around the inserts, and the outside of
the flashing.
I just inspected the windows. After 7 years it all looks good.
Might have to dress up the caulk in 5 years or so.
I love it not having window painting/maintenance to think about.
Unless you get up close, they look no different than wood windows.
You lose about an inch of opening with an insert.
In my case I gained many inches of glass and light, because I
eliminated the double-hung middle horizontal sashes.
All the windows were plenty wide to begin with.
I can see how you have to give some thought to the cosmetics of
windows, and I did, and I'm happy with the look.
Exterior trim - which I don't have - has to be considered.
But the mechanics of it are simple if you have sound frames and can
find inserts to fit.
That was no problem for me.

--
Vic

On May 14, 11:03*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2012 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On May 9, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:

"John Albert" wrote in message
.com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames. In
other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the original
frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved can be
tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for the install.
Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window & frame depending if
your existing rough opening can not be matched up with _stock_ windows.

When I bought my VR windows through Simonton, there wasn't any such
thing as "stock" windows.

I supplied my RO measurements to the dealer (a local Norandex
Reynolds) and they custom made every window. They have stock sizes
like a HD or Lowes might have and the price/quality was better than
anything I could have special ordered from the borg.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.
Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the interior.

You misunderstood, unless I'm misunderstanding you. *I said if you use
a stock sized window and make it fit the hole instead of having proper
sized windows made TO fit the hole, it will usually mean extra work
both inside and outside.

Why does a window made to "fit the hole" mean more work on the
exterior an interior?

* If you make a stock window fit a non-standard opening, you will need
to re-trim inside and out.



Pull the interior stops, take out the old window, tilt the new window
into the hole up against the original stops, and replace the interior
trim.

Exactly the same procedure for installing "total replacement" windows
except you remove the entire jam instead of just the sash and stops.

ALL of my original interior trim went right back on, with no trim work
on the outside either.



Sure, I left out all the insulating, caulking, shimming steps, but I
don't know why you say windows made to fit the hole mean more work
inside and out.

*If you make a window fit the hole, instead of making a window the
correct size to fit the hole, you are modifying something to make it
fit.


I didn't catch that you meant make a "stock window fit a non-standard
opening". That certainly would be more work, which is why I mentioned
that any window order from Simonton through Norandex is custom made
based on the RO the installer supplies when ordering. As far as I
know, they don't sell any "stock" window sizes. You supply an exact RO
measurment and they downsize it a bit to allow for shimming.

Had I removed the sashes on my double hungs, I would have had to do
(or have done) a lot of outside trim work since removing the sashes
would have screwed up the aluminum wrap. As it was, I removed the
aluminum wrap to get the aluminum screen frames out but then
reinstalled the aluminum up against the VRW.

For the casement over the sink, the entire window, frame and all, had
to be removed, so that took a bit more work to trim out the slider
that I replaced it with. I used various styles of vinyl trim and built
out a good looking profile on the exterior.


Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have unlimited
funds.

With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Tue, 15 May 2012 13:01:14 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On May 14, 11:03Â*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2012 15:00:21 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On May 9, 5:38Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 9 May 2012 10:32:06 -0400, "Stubby" wrote:

"John Albert" wrote in message
.com...
Hello all...

I've got an old house, built in 1911. It still has the original windows.

I'm having the roof replaced, and the guy who's going to do it does
windows/siding as well.

Like everyone else I've talked to, he offered vinyl replacement windows.

My question is:
Why always vinyl for windows?

I've looked around at them, and have never been impressed by their
construction or quality. They just look "cheap" to me.

What makes them better?
Or -- is it just about "cheaper"?

If I was going to have the windows done, I'd probably want something like
Pella "450" series -- that is, basic wooden windows with aluminum
cladding on the outer surfaces.

The wooden windows in this house are old, and yes, in need of
replacement. But somehow they lasted 100 years. Will vinyl replacements
have similar longevity?

_Most_ of the time, vinyl replacements go inside of existing frames. In
other words, the sashes come out of the existing frames, the original
frames stay put. (Notice, the word "MOST")

Not around here. I worked for 2 window companies a few years back, and
full tear-out is the way to go, even with vinyl windows. Putting new
windows in the old sash is a cheap-assed way of doing things that
looks like crap and doesn't perform much better.

If you want a complete window with new frames, the labor involved can be
tremendous, depending what type of siding needs removed for the install.
Also, you _may_ have to have a custom built window & frame depending if
your existing rough opening can not be matched up with _stock_ windows.

When I bought my VR windows through Simonton, there wasn't any such
thing as "stock" windows.

I supplied my RO measurements to the dealer (a local Norandex
Reynolds) and they custom made every window. They have stock sizes
like a HD or Lowes might have and the price/quality was better than
anything I could have special ordered from the borg.

The only "good" vinyl window is a custom window for replacement. New
construction you build to fit the window. Replacement you make the
window TO fit the hole, you don't make the window fit the hole.
Which, can mean additional work on the exterior, as well as the interior.

You misunderstood, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Â*I said if you use
a stock sized window and make it fit the hole instead of having proper
sized windows made TO fit the hole, it will usually mean extra work
both inside and outside.

Why does a window made to "fit the hole" mean more work on the
exterior an interior?

Â* If you make a stock window fit a non-standard opening, you will need
to re-trim inside and out.



Pull the interior stops, take out the old window, tilt the new window
into the hole up against the original stops, and replace the interior
trim.

Exactly the same procedure for installing "total replacement" windows
except you remove the entire jam instead of just the sash and stops.

ALL of my original interior trim went right back on, with no trim work
on the outside either.



Sure, I left out all the insulating, caulking, shimming steps, but I
don't know why you say windows made to fit the hole mean more work
inside and out.

Â*If you make a window fit the hole, instead of making a window the
correct size to fit the hole, you are modifying something to make it
fit.


I didn't catch that you meant make a "stock window fit a non-standard
opening". That certainly would be more work, which is why I mentioned
that any window order from Simonton through Norandex is custom made
based on the RO the installer supplies when ordering. As far as I
know, they don't sell any "stock" window sizes. You supply an exact RO
measurment and they downsize it a bit to allow for shimming.

Had I removed the sashes on my double hungs, I would have had to do
(or have done) a lot of outside trim work since removing the sashes
would have screwed up the aluminum wrap. As it was, I removed the
aluminum wrap to get the aluminum screen frames out but then
reinstalled the aluminum up against the VRW.

The beaty od doing it "right" is the aluminum wrap becomes
superfluous. Like not needed. Get rid of it and the whole window is
replaced with vinyl

For the casement over the sink, the entire window, frame and all, had
to be removed, so that took a bit more work to trim out the slider
that I replaced it with. I used various styles of vinyl trim and built
out a good looking profile on the exterior.
The custom window can be supplied with attached brick mold / trim so
no building out is required. And no crappy aluminum capping.

Makes the job so much nicer, AND EASIER.


Many people go for the most bang for your buck, unless you have unlimited
funds.

With custom built windows, it can actually be faster and cheaper to do
it right than to "cheap out" and then pay to cap the old window frames
so you don't need to paint THEM. You use vinyl windows because they
are maintenance free, right??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -