I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd floor
apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. The new hardwood
will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring from
Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...&storeId=10051 .

I am buying the materials. The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.

Shown below are links to two photos of the existing subfloor. I posted the
same two photos in two different formats in case one works better than the
other, but the two sets of photos are the same.


http://tinypic.com/r/2ih9zlg/6

http://tinypic.com/r/xp7omd/6



http://i49.tinypic.com/2ih9zlg.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/xp7omd.jpg



The door in the upper right corner of the first picture in each set is the
entrance to the apartment. The pictures were taken with my back facing the
front wall windows of the living room.



We had to take up the original hardwood flooring for a number of reasons,
including that the floor had squeaks all over in all rooms. We are now in
the process of re-nailing all of the subfloor boards to get rid of the
squeaks and secure them tightly to the floor joists.



My questions are about how to do the installation of the new hardwood.



One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood. The existing
subfloor goes across the floor joists, so I am wondering whether to install
the new hardwood in that same direction as the subfloor, or install the new
hardwood perpendicular to the existing subfloor.



If the new hardwood goes in the same direction as the subfloor, it will be
across the floor joists which I assume is good. But, that would mean that
some of the hardwood seams will be right over the subfloor seams, which may
not be a good idea.



If the new hardwood goes perpendicular to the subfloor, then the lining up
of the subfloor seams with the hardwood seams won't occur, but I wonder if
that would be less strong since the hardwood then would not be going across
the floor joists.



Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch plywood
second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, and then put down the new
hardwood. In that case, the new hardwood could go perpendicular to the
floor joists for strength (the way the first subfloor is now) and it would
not have the issue of the hardwood seams lining up with the first subfloor
seams. Is that a good idea?



And, finally, what goes under the new hardwood? I have read that it is good
to put down some type of underlayment such as red rosin paper. I even saw
on the Home Depot website (I think) where they suggest using roofing felt
for the underlayment.



So, the question is, "What type of underlayment should I use under the new
hardwood?"



Since I will be asking one or two hardwood flooring installers to give me an
estimate for doing the installation only, I know that I will get some ideas
from them. But, I always like to check here in addition so I have more
information to work with when contractors come out to look at any job I
have.



Thanks.

On Apr 27, 9:04*am, "TomR" wrote:
I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd floor
apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. *The new hardwood
will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring from
Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...id-Hardwood/h_....

I am buying the materials. *The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.

Shown below are links to two photos of the existing subfloor. *I posted the
same two photos in two different formats in case one works better than the
other, but the two sets of photos are the same.

http://tinypic.com/r/2ih9zlg/6

http://tinypic.com/r/xp7omd/6

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ih9zlg.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/xp7omd.jpg

The door in the upper right corner of the first picture in each set is the
entrance to the apartment. *The pictures were taken with my back facing the
front wall windows of the living room.

We had to take up the original hardwood flooring for a number of reasons,
including that the floor had squeaks all over in all rooms. *We are now in
the process of re-nailing all of the subfloor boards to get rid of the
squeaks and secure them tightly to the floor joists.

My questions are about how to do the installation of the new hardwood.

One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood. *The existing
subfloor goes across the floor joists, so I am wondering whether to install
the new hardwood in that same direction as the subfloor, or install the new
hardwood perpendicular to the existing subfloor.

If the new hardwood goes in the same direction as the subfloor, it will be
across the floor joists which I assume is good. *But, that would mean that
some of the hardwood seams will be right over the subfloor seams, which may
not be a good idea.

If the new hardwood goes perpendicular to the subfloor, then the lining up
of the subfloor seams with the hardwood seams won't occur, but I wonder if
that would be less strong since the hardwood then would not be going across
the floor joists.

Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch plywood
second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, and then put down the new
hardwood. *In that case, the new hardwood could go perpendicular to the
floor joists for strength (the way the first subfloor is now) and it would
not have the issue of the hardwood seams lining up with the first subfloor
seams. *Is that a good idea?

And, finally, what goes under the new hardwood? *I have read that it is good
to put down some type of underlayment such as red rosin paper. *I even saw
on the Home Depot website (I think) where they suggest using roofing felt
for the underlayment.

So, the question is, "What type of underlayment should I use under the new
hardwood?"

Since I will be asking one or two hardwood flooring installers to give me an
estimate for doing the installation only, I know that I will get some ideas
from them. *But, I always like to check here in addition so I have more
information to work with when contractors come out to look at any job I
have.

Thanks.

First, I'm not a hardwood installer by trade. But on the couple of
jobs that I've done, I put down 15lb roofing felt and then layed the
hardwood on it running perpendicular to the floor joist..

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 11:04:47 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd floor
apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. The new hardwood
will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring from
Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...&storeId=10051 .

I am buying the materials. The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.

Shown below are links to two photos of the existing subfloor. I posted the
same two photos in two different formats in case one works better than the
other, but the two sets of photos are the same.


http://tinypic.com/r/2ih9zlg/6

http://tinypic.com/r/xp7omd/6



http://i49.tinypic.com/2ih9zlg.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/xp7omd.jpg



The door in the upper right corner of the first picture in each set is the
entrance to the apartment. The pictures were taken with my back facing the
front wall windows of the living room.



We had to take up the original hardwood flooring for a number of reasons,
including that the floor had squeaks all over in all rooms. We are now in
the process of re-nailing all of the subfloor boards to get rid of the
squeaks and secure them tightly to the floor joists.



My questions are about how to do the installation of the new hardwood.



One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood. The existing
subfloor goes across the floor joists, so I am wondering whether to install
the new hardwood in that same direction as the subfloor, or install the new
hardwood perpendicular to the existing subfloor.



If the new hardwood goes in the same direction as the subfloor, it will be
across the floor joists which I assume is good. But, that would mean that
some of the hardwood seams will be right over the subfloor seams, which may
not be a good idea.



If the new hardwood goes perpendicular to the subfloor, then the lining up
of the subfloor seams with the hardwood seams won't occur, but I wonder if
that would be less strong since the hardwood then would not be going across
the floor joists.



Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch plywood
second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, and then put down the new
hardwood. In that case, the new hardwood could go perpendicular to the
floor joists for strength (the way the first subfloor is now) and it would
not have the issue of the hardwood seams lining up with the first subfloor
seams. Is that a good idea?



And, finally, what goes under the new hardwood? I have read that it is good
to put down some type of underlayment such as red rosin paper. I even saw
on the Home Depot website (I think) where they suggest using roofing felt
for the underlayment.



So, the question is, "What type of underlayment should I use under the new
hardwood?"



Since I will be asking one or two hardwood flooring installers to give me an
estimate for doing the installation only, I know that I will get some ideas
from them. But, I always like to check here in addition so I have more
information to work with when contractors come out to look at any job I
have.



Thanks.


Questions:

How thick is your current sub floor?

Will the 1/4 ply cause problems with height under the doors?

Will the flooring be glued or nailed?

As to direction:

(from you pictures) Perpendicular to the sub floor will possibly make
the room "look / appear" larger and flow into other rooms easier.

You can lay out some pieces and play with the direction and see what
looks best to you.

It is recommenced to open the boxes too let the material acclimate to
room temps and humidity for at least 72 hours.

Your present subfloor should be at east 5/8", so running your new
flooring perpendicular to the subfloor should be fine. If your floor
joists are 2' on center, then the addition of 1/4" ply may be
recommended and run your new flooring perpendicular to the joists. If
your floor joists are 16" on center, then running the new flooring
perpendicular to the subfloor is fine, as long as the subfloor is at
least 5/8" thick.

I would recommend you go back and screw, rather than nail, the
subfloor to the joists, to prevent those squeaks from recurring. At
least install some screws randomly. Always use screws to stop and
prevent those kinds of squeaks. The reason those squeaks are there is
1) the previous nails gave way, allowing movement enough to squeak or
2) possibly, the subfloor wasn't completely acclimated and/or dry,
when installed, then dried (shrunk a little) after the finish flooring
was installed, allowing the original nails to have enough play to
accommodate movement, hence the squeaking.

As someone said, adding 1/4" ply over the subfloor may raise the
finish floor level too much. Measure before committing to that call.
You shouldn't need that 1/4" ply addition if the present subfloor is
at least 5/8" thick.... hence, run the new flooring perpendicular to
the 5/8" subflooring.

Felt is fine for underlayment... use 30# felt. Your working on the
15# felt may weaken it in spots or it tear easier, as you walk on it,
and it be less effective in those spots... probably not much, though.
30# felt is worth the extra effort.

I second the suggestion to open the new flooring packages and let your
new flooring acclimate, at least 3 days (more if convenient), before
installing.

TomR wrote:
One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood. The existing
subfloor goes across the floor joists, so I am wondering whether to
install the new hardwood in that same direction as the subfloor, or
install
the new hardwood perpendicular to the existing subfloor.

Perpendicular.
____________

Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch
plywood second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, and then put
down
the new hardwood. In that case, the new hardwood could go perpendicular
to
the floor joists for strength (the way the first subfloor is now) and it
would not have the issue of the hardwood seams lining up with the first
subfloor seams. Is that a good idea?

No
____________

So, the question is, "What type of underlayment should I use under
the new hardwood?"

Building paper works fine, anything will work to help avoid dust.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 11:04:47 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd
floor
apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. The new
hardwood
will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring
from
Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...&storeId=10051

I am buying the materials. The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.

Shown below are links to two photos of the existing subfloor. I
posted the
same two photos in two different formats in case one works better
than the
other, but the two sets of photos are the same.

http://tinypic.com/r/2ih9zlg/6
http://tinypic.com/r/xp7omd/6

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ih9zlg.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/xp7omd.jpg

The door in the upper right corner of the first picture in each set
is the
entrance to the apartment. The pictures were taken with my back
facing the
front wall windows of the living room.

We had to take up the original hardwood flooring for a number of
reasons,
including that the floor had squeaks all over in all rooms. We are
now in
the process of re-nailing all of the subfloor boards to get rid of
the
squeaks and secure them tightly to the floor joists.

My questions are about how to do the installation of the new
hardwood.

One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood. The
existing
subfloor goes across the floor joists, so I am wondering whether to
install
the new hardwood in that same direction as the subfloor, or install
the new
hardwood perpendicular to the existing subfloor.

If the new hardwood goes in the same direction as the subfloor, it
will be
across the floor joists which I assume is good. But, that would
mean that
some of the hardwood seams will be right over the subfloor seams,
which may
not be a good idea.

If the new hardwood goes perpendicular to the subfloor, then the
lining up
of the subfloor seams with the hardwood seams won't occur, but I
wonder if
that would be less strong since the hardwood then would not be going
across
the floor joists.

Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch
plywood
second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, and then put down
the new
hardwood. In that case, the new hardwood could go perpendicular to
the
floor joists for strength (the way the first subfloor is now) and it
would
not have the issue of the hardwood seams lining up with the first
subfloor
seams. Is that a good idea?

And, finally, what goes under the new hardwood? I have read that it
is good
to put down some type of underlayment such as red rosin paper. I
even saw
on the Home Depot website (I think) where they suggest using roofing
felt
for the underlayment.

So, the question is, "What type of underlayment should I use under
the new
hardwood?"

Since I will be asking one or two hardwood flooring installers to
give me an
estimate for doing the installation only, I know that I will get
some ideas
from them. But, I always like to check here in addition so I have
more
information to work with when contractors come out to look at any
job I
have.

Thanks.

How thick is your current sub floor?

I'll check again, but I am pretty sure it is 3/4-inch thick.

Will the 1/4 ply cause problems with height under the doors?

I don't think that would be a problem, but I can double check to be sure.
There are only 3 doors that would be involved -- the two bedroom doors and a
living room closet door. They are new and were installed when the original
3/4-inch hardwood flooring was down. So at most they would each need to
have 1/4-inch trimmed off the bottom.

Will the flooring be glued or nailed?

It will be nailed down.

As to direction:

(from you pictures) Perpendicular to the sub floor will possibly make
the room "look / appear" larger and flow into other rooms easier.

You can lay out some pieces and play with the direction and see what
looks best to you.

I have an almost identical apartment on the first floor right below this one
and I put new hardwood floors in that one about 2 years ago. The direction
of the new hardwood in that one is the same as the direction of the subfloor
shown in the pictures of the second floor apartment that I posted and that
looks good. The flow from the living room into the bedrooms looks good too.
In that apartment, the new hardwood went over top of the old hardwood
flooring, and we ran the new hardwood perpendicular to the old hardwood.
So, in that apartment, the subfloor was in the same direction as the 2nd
floor apartment, the old hardwood was perpendicular to the subfloor, and the
new hardwood on top of that was perpendicular to that. When I re-did that
apartment, I re-did everything -- all new kitchen and bath and all new door
frames and doors. So, adding the new hardwood on top of the old hardwood
didn't present any problems with doors etc. because we set them in place
after allowing for the extra 3/4-inch of new hardwood. And, in that
apartment, the floors weren't squeaking etc. which meant that I didn't have
to worry about re-nailing the subfloor boards to the floor joists. We also
had access to the subfloor joists from underneath the first floor apartment
in case anything needed to be tightened (which it didn't).

It is recommenced to open the boxes too let the material acclimate to
room temps and humidity for at least 72 hours.

I agree. I did read about that and that's what I did with the apartment
below and that's what I will be doing with this apartment.

Thanks.

Sonny wrote:
Your present subfloor should be at east 5/8", so running your new
flooring perpendicular to the subfloor should be fine. If your floor
joists are 2' on center, then the addition of 1/4" ply may be
recommended and run your new flooring perpendicular to the joists. If
your floor joists are 16" on center, then running the new flooring
perpendicular to the subfloor is fine, as long as the subfloor is at
least 5/8" thick.

Thanks. I am pretty sure the subfloor is 3/4 inch thick, but I will double
check to be sure. It is definitely at least 5/8 inch, but most likely 3/4
inch. And the floor joists are all 16-inch on center.

I would recommend you go back and screw, rather than nail, the
subfloor to the joists, to prevent those squeaks from recurring. At
least install some screws randomly. Always use screws to stop and
prevent those kinds of squeaks. The reason those squeaks are there is
1) the previous nails gave way, allowing movement enough to squeak or
2) possibly, the subfloor wasn't completely acclimated and/or dry,
when installed, then dried (shrunk a little) after the finish flooring
was installed, allowing the original nails to have enough play to
accommodate movement, hence the squeaking.

What we did so far is hammer in all of the existing subfloor nails. We are
now in the middle of re-nailing every subfloor board at every joist with a
nail gun using (I forget the name) spiral-type nails. With two rooms done,
that seems to be working well. I am not sure if we are going to want to
also add screws anywhere, but it's a thought.

As someone said, adding 1/4" ply over the subfloor may raise the
finish floor level too much. Measure before committing to that call.
You shouldn't need that 1/4" ply addition if the present subfloor is
at least 5/8" thick.... hence, run the new flooring perpendicular to
the 5/8" subflooring.

Felt is fine for underlayment... use 30# felt. Your working on the
15# felt may weaken it in spots or it tear easier, as you walk on it,
and it be less effective in those spots... probably not much, though.
30# felt is worth the extra effort.

If felt is okay to use, and if 30# felt would be better than 15# felt, then
we'll use the 30# felt. For me, decisions like that are easy since the cost
difference is minimal and I only pay for the materials once for the life of
the installation. So, spending more on materials one time is almost never
an issue for me.

I do wonder exactly what purpose the felt or underlayment serves overall. I
have heard it helps prevent future squeaks. However, I do wonder if there
are any issues with a thicker underlayment making it more likely that there
will be movement between the new hardwood and the subfloor rather than a
more solid link between them.

I don't know if adding the underlayment will do anything for sound, but if
it does and if one material would provide more sound deadening that another,
I'd go with the one that does the most to dampen down the sound transmission
to the floor below. I do realize that putting hardwood on the second floor
will cause more of a sound issue for the apartment below than wall-to-wall
rugs. But, I really do like hardwood floors instead of wall-to-wall rugs
for a lot of reasons; and I know that some landlords include in their leases
that tenants have to at least use area rugs over the hardwood floors which
helps protect them and provides some sound dampening.

I second the suggestion to open the new flooring packages and let your
new flooring acclimate, at least 3 days (more if convenient), before
installing.

Agreed.

On 4/27/2012 10:04 AM, TomR wrote:
....

... probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring...

Go to the Bruce site and download the installation guide for the
product(s) in which you're interested (or get them from the distributor
of choice).

All will become known.

--

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 15:20:17 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 11:04:47 -0400, "TomR" wrote:


(snipped)

http://tinypic.com/r/2ih9zlg/6
http://tinypic.com/r/xp7omd/6

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ih9zlg.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/xp7omd.jpg

How thick is your current sub floor?

I'll check again, but I am pretty sure it is 3/4-inch thick.


I would say you really don't need the addition of 1/4 ply (luan)
unless the floor is uneven by valleys and or peaks.

Will the 1/4 ply cause problems with height under the doors?

I don't think that would be a problem, but I can double check to be sure.
There are only 3 doors that would be involved -- the two bedroom doors and a
living room closet door. They are new and were installed when the original
3/4-inch hardwood flooring was down. So at most they would each need to
have 1/4-inch trimmed off the bottom.


Easy task.

Will the flooring be glued or nailed?

It will be nailed down.

Rosen paper or felt will work in lieu of 1/4 ply. It will give some
insulation / sound barrier performance. How much, I don't know.

As to direction:

(from you pictures) Perpendicular to the sub floor will possibly make
the room "look / appear" larger and flow into other rooms easier.

You can lay out some pieces and play with the direction and see what
looks best to you.

I have an almost identical apartment on the first floor right below this one
and I put new hardwood floors in that one about 2 years ago. The direction
of the new hardwood in that one is the same as the direction of the subfloor
shown in the pictures of the second floor apartment that I posted and that
looks good. The flow from the living room into the bedrooms looks good too.
In that apartment, the new hardwood went over top of the old hardwood
flooring, and we ran the new hardwood perpendicular to the old hardwood.
So, in that apartment, the subfloor was in the same direction as the 2nd
floor apartment, the old hardwood was perpendicular to the subfloor, and the
new hardwood on top of that was perpendicular to that. When I re-did that
apartment, I re-did everything -- all new kitchen and bath and all new door
frames and doors. So, adding the new hardwood on top of the old hardwood
didn't present any problems with doors etc. because we set them in place
after allowing for the extra 3/4-inch of new hardwood. And, in that
apartment, the floors weren't squeaking etc. which meant that I didn't have
to worry about re-nailing the subfloor boards to the floor joists. We also
had access to the subfloor joists from underneath the first floor apartment
in case anything needed to be tightened (which it didn't).

You seem to have a stable sub floor (the spiral nails you used help).

The direction is really a matter of personal preference as best as I
can tell.

dpb wrote:
On 4/27/2012 10:04 AM, TomR wrote:
...

... probably will be Bruce solid maple flooring...

Go to the Bruce site and download the installation guide for the
product(s) in which you're interested (or get them from the
distributor of choice).

Good suggestion. I just went there and the Bruce flooring hardwood floor
product line that I probably will be putting down is called "Kennedale
Strip".

The link for their installation guide for this particular product line is:

http://www.armstrong.com/pdbupimages/190071.pdf .

I just printed that out but didn't get to read it yet.

Thanks.

Felt or any reasonable underlayment is a moisture barrier as well as
helping, even slightly, dampen sound. 1/8" cork is expensive, but a
great underlayment.

No adequate underlayment will have any affect on the stability of the
finished floor against the subfloor. Your attachment mechanisms
(nails, screws, etc.) are responsible for that stability.

TomR wrote:
I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd
floor apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. The new
hardwood will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple
flooring
from Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...&storeId=10051
.
I am buying the materials. The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.


I can't help on the installation techniques, but I can offer a couple of
suggestions on materials that might save you bags and bags of cash.

Consider Lumber Liquidators
http://www.lumberliquidators.com/

Right this instant they're having a sale on hardwood (solid maple, 3/4 x 2",
$3.29 sq/ft).

Also Floor & Decor Outlets
http://www.flooranddecoroutlets.com/

Their solid maple, 5/8 x 2-1/4", is $2.49 sq ft.

I've used products from both. Excellent quality and no complaints (except
you can't find an empty cart at the Floor & Decor joint).

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
TomR wrote:
I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd
floor apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. The new
hardwood will be prefinished and probably will be Bruce solid maple
flooring
from Home Depot or a similar source, such as:

http://www.homedepot.com/Flooring-Ha...&storeId=10051
.
I am buying the materials. The installation will be done by either a
hardwood floor company or a contractor that I use for other work.


I can't help on the installation techniques, but I can offer a couple of
suggestions on materials that might save you bags and bags of cash.

Consider Lumber Liquidators
http://www.lumberliquidators.com/

Right this instant they're having a sale on hardwood (solid maple, 3/4 x
2", $3.29 sq/ft).

Also Floor & Decor Outlets
http://www.flooranddecoroutlets.com/

Their solid maple, 5/8 x 2-1/4", is $2.49 sq ft.

I've used products from both. Excellent quality and no complaints (except
you can't find an empty cart at the Floor & Decor joint).


Thanks. I went to Lumber Liquidators in Cherry Hill, NJ this past weekend
when they were having a sale. But nothing that they had on sale beat the
everyday price of $2.99 per sq. ft. for 3/4 inch by 2-1/4 inch prefinished
solid maple (or oak) that I can get at Home Depot 2 blocks down the road.

Also, I am in New Jersey and there are no Floor and Decor Outlets stores in
New Jersey or in any state nearby. Plus, their $2.49 price is for 5/8 inch
by 2-1/4 and not 3/4 inch by 2-1/4. I would rather pay a little more and go
with 3/4 inch thick instead of 5/8 inch thick hardwood for the added
strength etc.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:34:42 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Cherry Hill, NJ

I been there :-\ I forget which exit. My bride graduated school in
Cherry Hill.

Your photos looked like a home with well built sub floors.

They had butt joints side by side (2), but it works....first I've seen
it like that.

How old is your building?

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:59:29 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Perpendicular.

Diagonal.

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:59:29 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Perpendicular.

Diagonal.

Subfloor

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

TomR wrote:
I can't help on the installation techniques, but I can offer a
couple of suggestions on materials that might save you bags and bags
of cash. Consider Lumber Liquidators
http://www.lumberliquidators.com/

Right this instant they're having a sale on hardwood (solid maple,
3/4 x 2", $3.29 sq/ft).


Thanks. I went to Lumber Liquidators in Cherry Hill, NJ this past
weekend when they were having a sale. But nothing that they had on
sale beat the everyday price of $2.99 per sq. ft. for 3/4 inch by
2-1/4 inch prefinished solid maple (or oak) that I can get at Home
Depot 2 blocks down the road.

I'm stunned.

'Course I'm more of the laminate flooring type - at $0.49 / sq ft

HeyBub wrote:
TomR wrote:
I can't help on the installation techniques, but I can offer a
couple of suggestions on materials that might save you bags and bags
of cash. Consider Lumber Liquidators
http://www.lumberliquidators.com/

Right this instant they're having a sale on hardwood (solid maple,
3/4 x 2", $3.29 sq/ft).


Thanks. I went to Lumber Liquidators in Cherry Hill, NJ this past
weekend when they were having a sale. But nothing that they had on
sale beat the everyday price of $2.99 per sq. ft. for 3/4 inch by
2-1/4 inch prefinished solid maple (or oak) that I can get at Home
Depot 2 blocks down the road.

I'm stunned.

I was surprised too -- at least in regard to the Lumber Liquidator prices
for 3/4 inch prefinished solid hardwood. I have seen their sales ad and I
am on their mailing list, and I know people who have bought products on sale
there and who talked about the good pricing. I even bought unfinished 3/4
inch solid Red Oak there a couple of years ago and they seemed to have the
best price for that. But, recently, people I know have suggested to me that
Home Depot (and I think Lowes) have some prefinished 3/4 inch solid hardwood
flooring in the $2.99 price range. I checked that out and it was true.

'Course I'm more of the laminate flooring type - at $0.49 / sq ft

On the other hand, Lumber Liquidators does seem to have some of the best
prices in my area for laminate flooring and possibly engineered hardwood.
The same people that I know who talked about the solid hardwood flooring
prices at Home Depot etc. also talked about the lower prices at Lumber
Liquidators for laminate flooring etc., and they almost always go there for
those products.

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 22:34:42 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Cherry Hill, NJ

I been there :-\ I forget which exit. My bride graduated school in
Cherry Hill.

Exit 4. Cherry Hill East or Cherry Hill West?

Your photos looked like a home with well built sub floors.

They had butt joints side by side (2), but it works....first I've seen
it like that.

The subfloor does seem strong, especially now that it has been re-nailed to
the joists. It is 3/4-inch tongue and groove wood although the tongue and
groove parts aren't very tightly connected in many places. It looks like
the wood shrank over the years as it dried out, so the tongue and groove
seams tend to have small gaps rather than fitting together tightly.

How old is your building?

I think it was built in the mid 1940's.

On Apr 30, 9:00*am, "TomR" wrote:
*It looks like
the wood shrank over the years as it dried out,

*so the tongue and groove seams tend to have small gaps rather than
fitting together tightly.


..... And very likely why the nails appeared to have loosened,
contributing to the squeaking.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:00:33 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

The subfloor does seem strong, especially now that it has been re-nailed to
the joists. It is 3/4-inch tongue and groove wood although the tongue and
groove parts aren't very tightly connected in many places. It looks like
the wood shrank over the years as it dried out, so the tongue and groove
seams tend to have small gaps rather than fitting together tightly.

How old is your building?

I think it was built in the mid 1940's.

If you get a windy day, I would do a smoke test with an incense to
check for air drafts at the gaps. The idea to use paper or felt will
stop any drafts in the future.

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:59:29 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Perpendicular.

Diagonal.

Oren,

I wasn't sure if you were serious about the "diagonal" suggestion or not,
but I did think of that as one possible option. But, I don't think I would
like the way that would look in this apartment, so my plan at this point is
to go with "Perpendicular" to the existing subfloor.

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:36:19 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 14:59:29 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Perpendicular.

Diagonal.

Oren,

I wasn't sure if you were serious about the "diagonal" suggestion or not,
but I did think of that as one possible option. But, I don't think I would
like the way that would look in this apartment, so my plan at this point is
to go with "Perpendicular" to the existing subfloor.


It was a late thought on my part :-\

Diagonal can look great in some rooms. Usually larger rooms.

TomR wrote:
I am about to install new 3/4-inch solid hardwood flooring in a 2nd
floor apartment -- a living room, 2 bedrooms, and 2 closets. . . . ,

One question is which direction to lay the new hardwood.. . . ,

Another thought is whether to put down something like a 1/4-inch
plywood second subfloor over the existing subfloor first, . . . ,

And, finally, what goes under the new hardwood? . . . ,

Thanks for all of the helpful replies.

At this point, my plan is to consider the existing subfloor to be strong
enough to just use it without adding any plywood etc. on top of it first.
And, I think that running the new hardwood perpendicular to the direction of
existing subfloor will be the best option -- and that seems to be the
consensus here too.

For underlayment, I am actually thinking of using BOTH roofing felt and red
rosin paper. This may be overkill, but this is why I was thinking of using
both.

First, the cost is minimal. The whole area where I am adding the new
hardwood is only 450 square feet. So, that's just one roll of red rosin
paper at a cost of about 12 dollars a roll; and about $25 or $50 of roofing
felt depending on whether I use 15 pound or 30 pound felt.

Second, I have read that when using roofing felt, one minor issue can be
that black marks can sometimes end up being transferred onto the new
hardwood and/or walls and trim while working with it and doing the new floor
installation. That's a very minor issue, I know. Also, a couple of places
online mentioned that sliding the hardwood pieces in place over rosin paper
is a little easier than sliding it over roofing felt to get a tight fit
between the pieces along the tongue and groove. That too, seems minor to
me, or maybe not any problem at all -- but that's what I read.

And finally, if I do use 30-pound felt (which I would do unless there is
some reason not to), it is recommended to not overlap the pieces but instead
to butt them next to each other. If I do that, I could also use the red
rosin paper over top and make sure the rosin paper goes over those butt
seams on the roofing felt so that air, dust, and dirt won't come through at
the seams.

I haven't had any hardwood flooring installers look at the job yet, but I
will. So, I'll also report back what they suggest about all of this.

I'll agree with the idea of the flooring boards sliding on paper
better, vs sliding on felt.

When laying the felt, align the long seams and overlap the end seams
(if you have end seams), then cut through both end seams with a box
knife, so that the end seams' edges match perfectly. That will be
easier than trying to align the long seams and the end seams at the
same time, as you roll out the felt. You may not have end seams,
since your area to be covered is relatively small. It shouldn't be
too hard to align long seams.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
I'll agree with the idea of the flooring boards sliding on paper
better, vs sliding on felt.

That's good to know. I think I'll probably do my felt plus rosin paper
idea.

When laying the felt, align the long seams and overlap the end seams
(if you have end seams), then cut through both end seams with a box
knife, so that the end seams' edges match perfectly. That will be
easier than trying to align the long seams and the end seams at the
same time, as you roll out the felt. . . . ,

Good idea. I hadn't thought about that.

You may not have end seams,
since your area to be covered is relatively small. It shouldn't be
too hard to align long seams.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier. I read on one site that putting a
few staples in the felt and/or rosin paper to hold it in place is a good
idea. Is that correct?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:33:15 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I'll agree with the idea of the flooring boards sliding on paper
better, vs sliding on felt.

When laying the felt, align the long seams and overlap the end seams
(if you have end seams), then cut through both end seams with a box
knife, so that the end seams' edges match perfectly. That will be
easier than trying to align the long seams and the end seams at the
same time, as you roll out the felt. You may not have end seams,
since your area to be covered is relatively small. It shouldn't be
too hard to align long seams.

Sonny

I agree with the OP and you.

Now. How much does the installer want?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:22:55 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

One thing I forgot to mention earlier. I read on one site that putting a
few staples in the felt and/or rosin paper to hold it in place is a good
idea. Is that correct?

Don't know. I see no harm with a roofing tack or two. Or allow the
material to free float under the new flooring.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier. *I read on one site that putting a
few staples in the felt and/or rosin paper to hold it in place is a good
idea. *Is that correct?

From the word go, you seem to have a very good handle on your project,
asking all the right questions and evaluating all the recieved
infomation. Now, I'm going to have to laugh at you, with a little
sarcasm thrown in. Stop over thinking this paper/felt aspect of the
project. This is probably the least of your concerns. Put the damn
paper down and tack it, staple it or whatever is good for you. The
paper laying job, itself, will tell you what may be the best thing to
do.

On second thought, go have some beers and relax, then go back to the
paper job and take care of it.

Sonny
*You're welcome to fuss me back. We'll get the job done, one way or
the other, and it'll be great, you'll be pleased.

TomR wrote:

Second, I have read that when using roofing felt, one minor issue can
be that black marks can sometimes end up being transferred onto the
new hardwood and/or walls and trim while working with it and doing
the new floor installation. That's a very minor issue, I know. Also, a
couple of places online mentioned that sliding the hardwood
pieces in place over rosin paper is a little easier than sliding it
over roofing felt to get a tight fit between the pieces along the
tongue and groove. That too, seems minor to me, or maybe not any
problem at all -- but that's what I read.

Your plan sounds reasonable but don't count on a really tight fit between
all pieces unless the one being installed is wedged to its neighbor...you'll
be surprised how non-straight the edges can be.

You might want to have your flooring installer install the baseboards as
well. That can be a bear, particularly across the floor planks if they
haven't taken care to get them all at the same height. Much depends on the
sub-floor.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Sonny wrote:
One thing I forgot to mention earlier. I read on one site that
putting a few staples in the felt and/or rosin paper to hold it in
place is a good idea. Is that correct?

. . . . . Now, I'm going to have to laugh at you, with a little
sarcasm thrown in. Stop over thinking this paper/felt aspect of the
project. This is probably the least of your concerns.

Thanks. I had to laugh too. Over thinking and over analyzing is what I do.
It is built into my nature.

Put the damn
paper down and tack it, staple it or whatever is good for you. The
paper laying job, itself, will tell you what may be the best thing to
do.

On second thought, go have some beers and relax, then go back to the
paper job and take care of it.

Sounds like a plan. I agree -- I'm sure it will all work out fine, but I do
like to think things through a lot before moving forward.

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:33:15 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I'll agree with the idea of the flooring boards sliding on paper
better, vs sliding on felt.

When laying the felt, align the long seams and overlap the end seams
(if you have end seams), then cut through both end seams with a box
knife, so that the end seams' edges match perfectly. That will be
easier than trying to align the long seams and the end seams at the
same time, as you roll out the felt. You may not have end seams,
since your area to be covered is relatively small. It shouldn't be
too hard to align long seams.

Sonny

I agree with the OP and you.

Thanks.

Now. How much does the installer want?

The area to be done is 460 square feet -- which includes a living room, 2
small bedrooms, and 2 closets.

One hardwood floor company looked at it a while back before I had decided
what I was going to do and they said that if I buy the materials, the cost
for them to do the installation would be $700.

Two other people that I know said what the companies that they use charge
for installation only. One company charges $1.30 a square foot and the
other company charges $1.55 a square foot. I am pretty sure that both
companies said those were their prices for a minimum of 500 square feet.
So, my guess is they will say about $650 ($1.30 times 500 sq. ft.) and $775
($1.55 times 500 sq. ft.) respectively.

I actually have a contractor person that I use on an ongoing basis who could
do the installation. I pay him on a time and materials basis for most jobs.
He and his brother installed the new hardwood floor in the apartment below
this one and it came out fine. I can't remember for sure, but I think it
took them about 2 days to do it from start to finish. With this apartment,
I am thinking of paying a hardwood flooring company that almost exclusively
does hardwood floor installations every day to do this installation. The
reason is that I would just like to see exactly how they do it, how they
figure out the transitions from room to room so that everything lines up
correctly, etc. And, I would probably have my person there either helping
or doing other things in the apartment in the kitchen and bath so he can see
and learn whatever tricks of the trade the regular hardwood floor installers
use.

I am not sure how long it would take for a hardwood flooring company to do
the installation, but my guess is that with two people doing the work they
could probably finish it in one day. Does that sound about right?

On Tue, 1 May 2012 11:04:16 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Now. How much does the installer want?

The area to be done is 460 square feet -- which includes a living room, 2
small bedrooms, and 2 closets.


Add about 5% flooring material for mistakes, waste, etc. By all
material from the same lot number. (try)

One hardwood floor company looked at it a while back before I had decided
what I was going to do and they said that if I buy the materials, the cost
for them to do the installation would be $700.

Two other people that I know said what the companies that they use charge
for installation only. One company charges $1.30 a square foot and the
other company charges $1.55 a square foot. I am pretty sure that both
companies said those were their prices for a minimum of 500 square feet.
So, my guess is they will say about $650 ($1.30 times 500 sq. ft.) and $775
($1.55 times 500 sq. ft.) respectively.


In my area, installers work by the square foot. Prices won't apply to
you here.

I actually have a contractor person that I use on an ongoing basis who could
do the installation. I pay him on a time and materials basis for most jobs.
He and his brother installed the new hardwood floor in the apartment below
this one and it came out fine. I can't remember for sure, but I think it
took them about 2 days to do it from start to finish. With this apartment,
I am thinking of paying a hardwood flooring company that almost exclusively
does hardwood floor installations every day to do this installation. The
reason is that I would just like to see exactly how they do it, how they
figure out the transitions from room to room so that everything lines up
correctly, etc. And, I would probably have my person there either helping
or doing other things in the apartment in the kitchen and bath so he can see
and learn whatever tricks of the trade the regular hardwood floor installers
use.

I am not sure how long it would take for a hardwood flooring company to do
the installation, but my guess is that with two people doing the work they
could probably finish it in one day. Does that sound about right?


They should finish in one day. The floor is being nailed, so that is
faster than glue. Remember the walls are not square or straight.
Getting the first couple of rows secure and in the correct position,
the rest of the job speeds up.

Having the compound miter saw in the apartment helps; instead of going
up and down stairs (yup).