I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where other shows
I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal preference, better, worse,
or what? They're building a wall, and they're screwing the studs into the header
and the plate (or whatever they're called.)

mcp6453 wrote:
I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where other shows
I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal preference, better, worse,
or what? They're building a wall, and they're screwing the studs into the header
and the plate (or whatever they're called.)

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts. A nail gun
should work. I find screwing fairly easy, and also easy to remove, just in
case! Check codes. If your going into treated lumber, use the right screws.

Greg

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:54:51 -0500, mcp6453 wrote:

I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where other shows
I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal preference, better, worse,
or what? They're building a wall, and they're screwing the studs into the header
and the plate (or whatever they're called.)

Did he mention why they prefer screws over mails? Notice they don't
seem to use an old fashion framing hammers and nails.

mcp6453 wrote:

I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where
other shows I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal
preference, better, worse, or what?

Here's a very short thread on the subject:

http://www.construction-resource.com...ead.php?t=6905

Framing screws have been around for a few years now.

It's something that's constantly debated in construction forums.

Nails are more ductile - meaning they can bend quite a bit before they
break. But nails can be pulled out easily.

Screws tend to be more brittle, meaning that they can break more easily
when a bending or shear force is applied to them.

That said, there are apparently framing screws designed to meet a lot of
building codes.

When you're doing low-volume or custom work, or as a home-owner, a good
argument can be made for screws and a power driver (cost/benefit, etc)
vs swinging a hammer.

When you're a contractor or framer, you're interested in speed, and a
power nailer and compressor are expensive but give you speed.

I use screws for all the out-door projects I have. Sure makes it
easier to take them apart when they've served their purpose.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 03:47:09 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts

Dad was a carpenter. Held the stud in place by bracing it with his
boot. A few taps later he had a 16d nail toe nailed in a stud. They
just did it that way in olden days :-\

Don't hit your thumb -- that hurts...

When you're doing low-volume or custom work, or as a home-owner, a good
argument can be made for screws and a power driver (cost/benefit, etc)
vs swinging a hammer.

When you're a contractor or framer, you're interested in speed, and a
power nailer and compressor are expensive but give you speed.

I use screws for all the out-door projects I have. Sure makes it
easier to take them apart when they've served their purpose.

I had a contractor build build an elevated deck and stairs at my place 2
years ago. Canada, so the deck takes abuse from the weather. He used
nails. i asked why not deck screws and he simply told me that the
coated screws do not work as advertised and that he could use screws but
would not honour a 5 year warranty on workmanship.

He only gives a warranty if he can use nails. And it's just plain old
green pressure treated lumber.

mcp6453 wrote:
I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where
other shows I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal
preference, better, worse, or what? They're building a wall, and
they're screwing the studs into the header and the plate (or whatever
they're called.)

Don't use screws that aren't designed for that use. Deck screws will break.

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...
I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where other
shows
I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal preference, better,
worse,
or what? They're building a wall, and they're screwing the studs into the
header
and the plate (or whatever they're called.)

Wouldn't that be a rather personal choice of the person doing the "screwing"
or "nailing" of said "studs" ???
drum roll

On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
....

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

--

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:54:51 -0500, mcp6453 wrote:

I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where other shows
I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal preference, better, worse,
or what? They're building a wall, and they're screwing the studs into the header
and the plate (or whatever they're called.)

Nails were always used since the beginning of home building. It'sd just
in the last few decades that screws are being used for darn near
everything. Heck, back in the 60's screws were only used to hang door
hinges and build furniture. I'm not really sure why screws have become
so popular, but I attribute it more to advertising than need. Screws
cost more so they make more money for the sellers. I also think that
our current young generation is lazy and cant do anything without power.

There are a few instances that I see an advantage to screws. Drywall,
and pole barn steel. Mainly because drywall dont have nail pops are
often, and the barn steel stays tight, so thus water dont leak around
the neoprene washers. I have mixed feelings about using them for
decking. They do hold better, but they do often leave a deep indent in
the wood, which holds water, causes rot and icy spots. They can also be
a big pain to remove, especially the phillips heads.

As for framing studs and most any dimentional lumber, use nails.....
Who in their right mind wants to drive screws into the side of a wall
being framed, lauing on the ground. And I can put in a nail much faster
than a screw, considering that you need to grab the screw, then the
power driver, get the bit in the head, and hopefully get the screw in
without stripping out the head or tip. The hell with that. Give me a
framing hammer and some common or coated sinker nails.

If you cant get the boards lined up while using a hammer and nails, it's
time you learn how. Carpenters have done it for centuries, but it takes
skill and practice. Yea, you will hit your thumb once and awhile, but
the more you practice the less you'll do that, plus you learn how to not
hit the nail as hard when you start it, and your fingers are under the
hammer. But hey, I'd much rather hit my thumb a few times a year than
get shot with a nail gun. Myself, I have no use for nail guns. Not
only are they dangerous, but clumbsy, awkward, they often jam up, a slow
air compressor can make you wait for enough pressure, and if your board
is not prefectly in line, that nail is all the way driven in on one
shot. (With a hammer, you can back the nail out and adjust things).
So, in the end, I like a plain old hammer and nails the best and I can
build just as fast as with all that power stuff.

One last thing. If you insist on screws, DO NOT use those goddamn
brittle drywall screws that crack from side pressure. About 10 years
ago, I was building a lean to on one of my sheds. It was small, so I
decided to frame the whole roof on the ground and lift it up on the
walls. Since the "trend" seemed to be screws. I decided to give them a
try. I built the whole 12 x 10 foot 2x4 roof frame on the ground using
3 to 4 inch drywall screws. It looked good when it was done. I leaned
it against the original building and as I lifted it, I heard a few pops
and noticed a couple 2x4s were loose. I added a few screws, and as I
liften the roof frame up on the walls, the entire frame fell apart, with
a few boards falling on my head. Needless to say, I was ****ed!

What happened was the frame twisted (which is normal when you lift a
wall or roof frame into place). The twisting just snapped almost every
screw. I ended up taking all the pieces of wood and starting all over
on the ground. This time I used nails, and had to **** around mailing
in between the busted off screws. That was the last time I ever used
screws for framing. I guess they make some less brittle screws, but I
dont need the hassle. Nails are a soft metal that will flex and give.
Even if they bend a little while lifting a frame, a few taps with a
hammer and they are set. Those drywall screws just break. If you still
insist on screws, find out what kind are made for framing. I cant tell
you what kind, I have no use for any screws when I frame. A 16 or 20
common nail or sinker is just fine.

And just so you know. Some of these advertisers claim screws are
stronger and hold better. Well, all homes up until the 80's or so were
built with nails, and there are 100+ year old homes that are still
standing........

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've driven a
few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.

Jon

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:54 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've driven a
few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.

Jon


.... and also pick and use the correct hammer. :-\

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:54 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've driven a
few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.

Jon

A short 2X4 (about 14 1/2", +/-) to set between the already nailed
stud and the stud you are nailing sets the proper 16" on-center
spacing and prevents the stud from walking away on you as you drive
the nails.

It could be also that screws are better for existing construction.

You start banging on walls and other will start to crack.

This was a tip in Family Handyman years ago.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:54 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've driven a
few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.

Jon

Watch this guy:

_Incredible german Hammer juggler ! Nail art_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzRGjCs0RCI

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:54 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've driven a
few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.


Even that don't help sometimes.
I was helping my brother put in a entryway sound barrier wall in a
Chicago tavern one time. About 30 years ago.
Neighbors complaining about the band music when the door opened.
Basically adding a 12' wall and second door.
Neither of us were carpenters, but he was GC and knew the bar owner.
There's a "real" carpenter pounding down Old Style at the bar.
He was ragging on me off the bat when I was cutting 2x4's with my
cheap-ass bushed Craftsman 6 1/2" circ saw. It's a loud SOB.
"You ain't no carpenter!"
Probably a union guy, but I didn't ask.
I had to restrain my brother from kicking his ass.

First nails I drive setting the first stud in bent.
Maybe 5 in a row.
Carpenter is squawking "Can't even drive a god damn nail!"
I'm saying the stud is way too hard or my nails too soft and I'm about
to toss the stud out.
The carpenter is saying, "You ain't no ****ing carpenter."
He was mocking, trying to embarrass me, and it was working.
Because I wasn't a ****ing carpenter.
Then he says, "Let me get my hammer," and walks out.

Must have had his car right outside, because he's back in 30 seconds
holding his hammer.
My brother is saying "Get the **** outta here," and I had to grab him
to keep him off the carpenter.
I'm saying, "Let him drive some nails," and figure even a drunk real
carpenter is fine if he's working for us free.
So the carpenter starts bending nails just like me.
Never drove a nail through that stud.
After about 4 he just walks out saying nothing and doesn't come back.
My brother loudly cusses him on the way.

The guy was probably all spooked, thinking he lost his carpenter mojo.
It was funny as hell to me, but my brother is still ****ed if I
mention it. He's a lot different than me.
I tossed that stud and had no more problems.
Hardest pine stud I ever saw. Twice as heavy as normal.

Toe-nailing is a little tricky.
Use your foot on the sole to brace, and don't hit hard until the nail
has found its path in the sole.
Tap even more lightly at the header until the nail is biting it.
That's what I did, but I'm not a carpenter.
When I'm in no hurry, I've tacked scrap wood cleats on either side of
the stud before toe-nailing. Then just pull the scrap right out.
That works. No need to be a real carpenter.

I still use that Craftsman circ saw, loud as the bushings scream.
Just keeps working.
I'm sure that carpenter is dead now, but not my cheap-ass saw.
I think about him when I use the saw, and say RIP.
When and if I ever get a new circ saw, I'll say the same.

--Vic

"Jon Danniken" wrote in
:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've
driven a few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.

Jon



That goes for cutting lumber as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHGIwCHfESg&NR=1


Clipped frame of how close he got.
http://i49.tinypic.com/wusbh4.jpg

wrote in :

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:54:51 -0500, mcp6453 wrote:

I'm watching Holmes. In many cases, his crew is screwing studs where
other shows I watch use nails. Is that a Canadian thing, personal
preference, better, worse, or what? They're building a wall, and
they're screwing the studs into the header and the plate (or whatever
they're called.)

Nails were always used since the beginning of home building. It'sd
just in the last few decades that screws are being used for darn near
everything. Heck, back in the 60's screws were only used to hang door
hinges and build furniture. I'm not really sure why screws have
become so popular, but I attribute it more to advertising than need.
Screws cost more so they make more money for the sellers. I also
think that our current young generation is lazy and cant do anything
without power.

There are a few instances that I see an advantage to screws. Drywall,
and pole barn steel. Mainly because drywall dont have nail pops are
often, and the barn steel stays tight, so thus water dont leak around
the neoprene washers. I have mixed feelings about using them for
decking. They do hold better, but they do often leave a deep indent
in the wood, which holds water, causes rot and icy spots. They can
also be a big pain to remove, especially the phillips heads.

As for framing studs and most any dimentional lumber, use nails.....
Who in their right mind wants to drive screws into the side of a wall
being framed, lauing on the ground. And I can put in a nail much
faster than a screw, considering that you need to grab the screw, then
the power driver, get the bit in the head, and hopefully get the screw
in without stripping out the head or tip. The hell with that. Give
me a framing hammer and some common or coated sinker nails.

If you cant get the boards lined up while using a hammer and nails,
it's time you learn how. Carpenters have done it for centuries, but
it takes skill and practice. Yea, you will hit your thumb once and
awhile, but the more you practice the less you'll do that, plus you
learn how to not hit the nail as hard when you start it, and your
fingers are under the hammer. But hey, I'd much rather hit my thumb a
few times a year than get shot with a nail gun. Myself, I have no use
for nail guns. Not only are they dangerous, but clumbsy, awkward,
they often jam up, a slow air compressor can make you wait for enough
pressure, and if your board is not prefectly in line, that nail is all
the way driven in on one shot. (With a hammer, you can back the nail
out and adjust things). So, in the end, I like a plain old hammer and
nails the best and I can build just as fast as with all that power
stuff.

One last thing. If you insist on screws, DO NOT use those goddamn
brittle drywall screws that crack from side pressure. About 10 years
ago, I was building a lean to on one of my sheds. It was small, so I
decided to frame the whole roof on the ground and lift it up on the
walls. Since the "trend" seemed to be screws. I decided to give them
a try. I built the whole 12 x 10 foot 2x4 roof frame on the ground
using 3 to 4 inch drywall screws. It looked good when it was done. I
leaned it against the original building and as I lifted it, I heard a
few pops and noticed a couple 2x4s were loose. I added a few screws,
and as I liften the roof frame up on the walls, the entire frame fell
apart, with a few boards falling on my head. Needless to say, I was
****ed!

What happened was the frame twisted (which is normal when you lift a
wall or roof frame into place). The twisting just snapped almost
every screw. I ended up taking all the pieces of wood and starting
all over on the ground. This time I used nails, and had to ****
around mailing in between the busted off screws. That was the last
time I ever used screws for framing. I guess they make some less
brittle screws, but I dont need the hassle. Nails are a soft metal
that will flex and give. Even if they bend a little while lifting a
frame, a few taps with a hammer and they are set. Those drywall
screws just break. If you still insist on screws, find out what kind
are made for framing. I cant tell you what kind, I have no use for
any screws when I frame. A 16 or 20 common nail or sinker is just
fine.

And just so you know. Some of these advertisers claim screws are
stronger and hold better. Well, all homes up until the 80's or so
were built with nails, and there are 100+ year old homes that are
still standing........



Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Vic Smith wrote in
:

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:54 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On 2/5/2012 9:47 PM, gregz wrote:
...

I tried nailing by hand, that does not work. Everything shifts....

Certainly were a lot of houses (and much larger structures as well)
built that way, somehow... :J(

Those guys that swing hammers every day know how to drive a nail. The
theory behind it is simple enough to understand, but until you've
driven a few thousand of them, you don't know how to do it.


Even that don't help sometimes.
I was helping my brother put in a entryway sound barrier wall in a
Chicago tavern one time. About 30 years ago.
Neighbors complaining about the band music when the door opened.
Basically adding a 12' wall and second door.
Neither of us were carpenters, but he was GC and knew the bar owner.
There's a "real" carpenter pounding down Old Style at the bar.
He was ragging on me off the bat when I was cutting 2x4's with my
cheap-ass bushed Craftsman 6 1/2" circ saw. It's a loud SOB.
"You ain't no carpenter!"
Probably a union guy, but I didn't ask.
I had to restrain my brother from kicking his ass.

First nails I drive setting the first stud in bent.
Maybe 5 in a row.
Carpenter is squawking "Can't even drive a god damn nail!"
I'm saying the stud is way too hard or my nails too soft and I'm about
to toss the stud out.
The carpenter is saying, "You ain't no ****ing carpenter."
He was mocking, trying to embarrass me, and it was working.
Because I wasn't a ****ing carpenter.
Then he says, "Let me get my hammer," and walks out.

Must have had his car right outside, because he's back in 30 seconds
holding his hammer.
My brother is saying "Get the **** outta here," and I had to grab him
to keep him off the carpenter.
I'm saying, "Let him drive some nails," and figure even a drunk real
carpenter is fine if he's working for us free.
So the carpenter starts bending nails just like me.
Never drove a nail through that stud.
After about 4 he just walks out saying nothing and doesn't come back.
My brother loudly cusses him on the way.

The guy was probably all spooked, thinking he lost his carpenter mojo.
It was funny as hell to me, but my brother is still ****ed if I
mention it. He's a lot different than me.
I tossed that stud and had no more problems.
Hardest pine stud I ever saw. Twice as heavy as normal.

Toe-nailing is a little tricky.
Use your foot on the sole to brace, and don't hit hard until the nail
has found its path in the sole.
Tap even more lightly at the header until the nail is biting it.
That's what I did, but I'm not a carpenter.
When I'm in no hurry,

Put a drywall screw in, nail up, leave or remove screw...if you're not in
a hurry.

I've tacked scrap wood cleats on either side of
the stud before toe-nailing. Then just pull the scrap right out.
That works. No need to be a real carpenter.

I still use that Craftsman circ saw, loud as the bushings scream.
Just keeps working.
I'm sure that carpenter is dead now, but not my cheap-ass saw.
I think about him when I use the saw, and say RIP.
When and if I ever get a new circ saw, I'll say the same.

--Vic

On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

On 2012-02-08, mcp6453 wrote:
On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

Way cool!

Lotta ppl don't realize the Amish aren't bat **** crazy against
technology, jes technology that intrudes/interferes with the family.
Another little known secret, cell phones are present in Amish
communities.

nb

--
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!

mcp6453 wrote in
:

On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

Let me start a ping-pong game here...

Is it wood or lumber?

Oooo, maybe a third player - timber.

mcp6453 wrote in
:

On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

Let me start some **** here...

Is it wood or lumber?

Oooo, maybe a third player - timber.

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:54:37 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

mcp6453 wrote in
m:

On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

Let me start some **** here...

Is it wood or lumber?

Oooo, maybe a third player - timber.

Timbers is what I saw. Don't know if that's right, just what I
thought.
As in,
Where do they get those timbers, those timbers probably cost an arm
and a leg, must be a millionaire to have a house built of such
timbers.
Then I was thinking, thank God there's 2x4's for the rest of us.

--Vic

On 09 Feb 2012 00:34:44 GMT, Earl wrote:

Screwing is good.

So is nailing.

On 2/8/2012 5:54 PM, Red Green wrote:
wrote in
:

On 2/7/2012 6:56 PM, Red Green wrote:

Ask the experts the best way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqzXowscdtA

Love it! Look at that wood.

Let me start some **** here...

Is it wood or lumber?

Oooo, maybe a third player - timber.

Um, cellulose based elongated and laminated sheet structural building
material. ^_^

TDD