It's a good thing I'm not getting paid by the hour - but at least I'm
learning how to make mistakes in my first alt.home.repair sandstone tile
& flagstone walkways:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

Another lesson learned was that 5-gallon buckets are just too small to
mix mortar well! I will go to Home Depot tomorrow to buy a concrete pan!
What I did learn was that buckets are still needed. Lots and lots of
buckets!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493849.jpg

Another lesson learned is that I made the mortar far too wet! And, I put
far too little in the first, second, and third time I tried! And I didn't
make enough. Given that, the sandstones were at first too low, and then
they were sinking in the mud. There must be a fine line between lousy and
just right - and I'm no where near it!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493879.jpg

In addition, forms are MANDATORY! I tried doing it without a form, but,
in the middle of laying the first two stones, I found myself hastily
building a form just to hold the two inches of mortar back!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493863.jpg

Along that vein, it's helpful to have two jobs going at once. The first
job is the critical one. The second is simply a place to dump the extra
mortar... perhaps to fill the bottom tier of a form. With a second job
handy, I don't feel so badly making more mortar than I need.

Another thing I learned is that the location of the sandstone laid out as
flagstone is vastly easier than choosing the flagstone to be then cut
into tile to fit a defined space. Here's the flagstone, for example, that
I very roughly laid out in a semicircle out of the waste products left
over from the tiling job:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493845.jpg

I'll leave it with those of my lessons, for now. I'm sure tomorrow will
bring more!

The most painful of all the lessons was that these leather gloves, while
fantastic for outside work, stink for working with wet concrete!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493902.jpg

The only good news is that I now have no more fingerprints - so - I guess
I can rob a bank and not get caught (as long as I don't bleed on the bank
counter)!

Thanks for all your help. It looks sooooo easy in the videos. But they
don't tell you all this stuff!

clipped

The most painful of all the lessons was that these leather gloves, while
fantastic for outside work, stink for working with wet concrete!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493902.jpg

The only good news is that I now have no more fingerprints - so - I guess
I can rob a bank and not get caught (as long as I don't bleed on the bank
counter)!

Thanks for all your help. It looks sooooo easy in the videos. But they
don't tell you all this stuff!

Working as occupational health nurse, I once treated a guy for serious
burns to both feet....mixing concrete sans boots. It is caustic stuff.

Chuck Banshee wrote:

It's a good thing I'm not getting paid by the hour - but at least I'm
learning how to make mistakes in my first alt.home.repair sandstone tile
& flagstone walkways:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

I like the ugly blue ones-
http://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Coated-.../dp/B000PHIHQM
[I haven't used *those*- It seems like I pay $5-6 each at the hardware
store - I might get a dozen of those for $15] That style seems to
wear pretty well and are just the right balance of easy to put on and
still tight enough to let you feel what you're doing.

Another lesson learned was that 5-gallon buckets are just too small to
mix mortar well! I will go to Home Depot tomorrow to buy a concrete pan!

Get 2 they are worth their weight.

Keep your eyes open at garage sale for hoes with holes in them. You'll
think you died and gone to heaven using a real mixing hoe.

I've considered altering a garden hoe-- but the steel is usually
pretty tough stuff, and the hoe itself isn't as sturdy as the real
thing.


What I did learn was that buckets are still needed. Lots and lots of
buckets!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493849.jpg

Always. I'm always amazed when I see empty buckets lying around a
jobsite. When my stack gets shorter than me I get nervous.


Another lesson learned is that I made the mortar far too wet! And, I put

That is probably *the* most common mistake-- mortar or concrete-- keep
it dry.
-snip-

In addition, forms are MANDATORY! I tried doing it without a form, but,

For us mere mortals, yes--- but you've got to watch a pro one day.
slap-slice-butter-place. . . over and over. every so often god
whispers in his ear and he'll go back and trim things up-- but overall
it is an un-interrupted dance.

-snip-

I'll leave it with those of my lessons, for now. I'm sure tomorrow will
bring more!

the morning will bring you an anatomy lesson. How many new muscles
did you discover you had? All that bending can kill you.


The most painful of all the lessons was that these leather gloves, while
fantastic for outside work, stink for working with wet concrete!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493902.jpg
-snip-

You want to get some Cornhusker's Lotion for those hands. And some
sturdy rubber gloves. The alkali in the mortar will eat your hands.

Jim

On 2/5/2012 2:51 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
It's a good thing I'm not getting paid by the hour - but at least I'm
learning how to make mistakes in my first alt.home.repair sandstone tile
& flagstone walkways:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle& pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

Another lesson learned was that 5-gallon buckets are just too small to
mix mortar well! I will go to Home Depot tomorrow to buy a concrete pan!
What I did learn was that buckets are still needed. Lots and lots of
buckets!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493849.jpg

Another lesson learned is that I made the mortar far too wet! And, I put
far too little in the first, second, and third time I tried! And I didn't
make enough. Given that, the sandstones were at first too low, and then
they were sinking in the mud. There must be a fine line between lousy and
just right - and I'm no where near it!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493879.jpg

In addition, forms are MANDATORY! I tried doing it without a form, but,
in the middle of laying the first two stones, I found myself hastily
building a form just to hold the two inches of mortar back!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493863.jpg

Along that vein, it's helpful to have two jobs going at once. The first
job is the critical one. The second is simply a place to dump the extra
mortar... perhaps to fill the bottom tier of a form. With a second job
handy, I don't feel so badly making more mortar than I need.

Another thing I learned is that the location of the sandstone laid out as
flagstone is vastly easier than choosing the flagstone to be then cut
into tile to fit a defined space. Here's the flagstone, for example, that
I very roughly laid out in a semicircle out of the waste products left
over from the tiling job:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493845.jpg

I'll leave it with those of my lessons, for now. I'm sure tomorrow will
bring more!

The most painful of all the lessons was that these leather gloves, while
fantastic for outside work, stink for working with wet concrete!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493902.jpg

The only good news is that I now have no more fingerprints - so - I guess
I can rob a bank and not get caught (as long as I don't bleed on the bank
counter)!

Thanks for all your help. It looks sooooo easy in the videos. But they
don't tell you all this stuff!

I use my wheelbarrow for mixing concrete.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:37:54 -0500, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

the morning will bring you an anatomy lesson.
How many new muscles did you discover you had?

Waking up, I'm learning that lesson right now!

I also learned the cloth kneepads I have are substandard to the rubber
ones, if only because they get so soaking wet that you're soaked through
to the pants leg.

I decided to raise the level the two inches ... so ... I have to form and
concrete the footing to raise it up. But I can't raise it too high up
because the sandstone 'tile' are uneven thicknesses.

I realize now that even thicknesses would have been a blessing when I
have to pour the concrete and then after it hardens, plop the mortar on
top to lay the sandstone 'tile'.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:04:02 -0500, Frank wrote:

I use my wheelbarrow for mixing concrete.

Makes sense. I'll try that this morning.

Chuck Banshee wrote:

Another lesson learned was that 5-gallon buckets are just too small to
mix mortar well! I will go to Home Depot tomorrow to buy a concrete
pan!

Yes, mortar tubs are handy. If you don't have a mason's trowel - the "V"
shaped trowel - get one. A largish one.
_______________

In addition, forms are MANDATORY! I tried doing it without a form,
but, in the middle of laying the first two stones, I found myself
hastily building a form just to hold the two inches of mortar back!

Gotta ask, why are you using two inches of mortar? I'd think a bed combed
out with a 1/2" trowel would be plenty (might have to butter the bottom to
even up).

______________________

Along that vein, it's helpful to have two jobs going at once. The
first job is the critical one. The second is simply a place to dump
the extra mortar

We make "rocks" (cobbles) from excess mortar. Use them stacked to delineate
flower beds sometimes. After they weather and get mossy they do indeed look
like rocks.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:34:37 -0500, Norminn wrote:

I once treated a guy for serious
burns to both feet....mixing concrete sans boots.
It is caustic stuff.

Oh oh. I didn't realize it was 'that' caustic! I'm not mixing lime per
se ... so I wonder if it's that caustic, for me?

Maybe I should wear rubber boots instead of sneakers?

Anyway, another lesson I hadn't mentioned was my jeans split all along
the butt! My pants fit loosely. They are not tight at all. Yet, somehow,
they STILL managed a foot-long split from all the bending & lifting!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7497827.jpg

Chuck Banshee wrote:

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:34:37 -0500, Norminn wrote:

I once treated a guy for serious
burns to both feet....mixing concrete sans boots.
It is caustic stuff.

Oh oh. I didn't realize it was 'that' caustic! I'm not mixing lime per
se ... so I wonder if it's that caustic, for me?

I'd say yes- especially because your hands don't look like mason hands
yet.g


Maybe I should wear rubber boots instead of sneakers?

It all depends on how messy you are. 2 of my 2 brothers in law
helped my lay block for 2 days. at the end of the day 1 looked like
he just arrived on the job, and the other looked like he bathed in
mortar.

Jim

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 07:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

It's a good thing I'm not getting paid by the hour - but at least I'm
learning how to make mistakes in my first alt.home.repair sandstone tile
& flagstone walkways:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

It looks like your fingers are pretty well burned, too.

Another lesson learned was that 5-gallon buckets are just too small to
mix mortar well! I will go to Home Depot tomorrow to buy a concrete pan!
What I did learn was that buckets are still needed. Lots and lots of
buckets!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493849.jpg

As others have said, wheelbarrow. I do use a 5gal bucket to mix mortar to set
tile. It takes me too long to use 80# of the stuff.

Another lesson learned is that I made the mortar far too wet! And, I put
far too little in the first, second, and third time I tried! And I didn't
make enough. Given that, the sandstones were at first too low, and then
they were sinking in the mud. There must be a fine line between lousy and
just right - and I'm no where near it!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493879.jpg

Keep some mortar mix in reserve. You can add more (or water) to get the
consistency right. Also, measure everything. When you get the mix right,
you'll know what the right ratio is. You can scale from there to the size of
the mix needed. The ratio might change a little from day to day (or bag to
bag) but you'll have a good starting point.

In addition, forms are MANDATORY! I tried doing it without a form, but,
in the middle of laying the first two stones, I found myself hastily
building a form just to hold the two inches of mortar back!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493863.jpg

Yes, and forms will allow you to calculate the quantity of mix you need
(~120#/ft^3).

Along that vein, it's helpful to have two jobs going at once. The first
job is the critical one. The second is simply a place to dump the extra
mortar... perhaps to fill the bottom tier of a form. With a second job
handy, I don't feel so badly making more mortar than I need.

I don't usually have much more than I need, so just dump it where I clean the
tools. If it's washed out thoroughly it'll just be a little gravel in the
dirt.

Another thing I learned is that the location of the sandstone laid out as
flagstone is vastly easier than choosing the flagstone to be then cut
into tile to fit a defined space. Here's the flagstone, for example, that
I very roughly laid out in a semicircle out of the waste products left
over from the tiling job:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493845.jpg

NOW I see what you're doing. It's making sense (I thought they were steps).
Lookin' good!

I'll leave it with those of my lessons, for now. I'm sure tomorrow will
bring more!

The most painful of all the lessons was that these leather gloves, while
fantastic for outside work, stink for working with wet concrete!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493902.jpg

The only good news is that I now have no more fingerprints - so - I guess
I can rob a bank and not get caught (as long as I don't bleed on the bank
counter)!

Be careful! CSI can use your toe prints through your boots. ;-)

Thanks for all your help. It looks sooooo easy in the videos. But they
don't tell you all this stuff!

They also cut away when the real work is done (by Mexicans).

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:46:49 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:34:37 -0500, Norminn wrote:

I once treated a guy for serious
burns to both feet....mixing concrete sans boots.
It is caustic stuff.

Oh oh. I didn't realize it was 'that' caustic! I'm not mixing lime per
se ... so I wonder if it's that caustic, for me?

Along the same lines, when cleaning up your tools be careful where you
dispose of the dirty water. I've seen lawns that would not grow turf
because the mixture was poured out on the ground.

Pick a remote location that you don't plan to sod or place a garden.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:37:54 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

I like the ugly blue ones-
http://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Coated-.../dp/B000PHIHQM
[I haven't used *those*- It seems like I pay $5-6 each at the hardware
store - I might get a dozen of those for $15] That style seems to
wear pretty well and are just the right balance of easy to put on and
still tight enough to let you feel what you're doing.


I've used these gloves and really like them. My grip is not as good as
it once was, but these gloves really help to grasp items. They seem to
keep hands warmer in the winter. :-\

On 2/5/2012 10:02 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:04:02 -0500, Frank wrote:

I use my wheelbarrow for mixing concrete.

Makes sense. I'll try that this morning.


Considering the multiple uses of a wheelbarrow and infrequent need for
something to mix cement, it should do you.

On 2/5/2012 11:22 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Chuck wrote:

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 07:34:37 -0500, Norminn wrote:

I once treated a guy for serious
burns to both feet....mixing concrete sans boots.
It is caustic stuff.

Oh oh. I didn't realize it was 'that' caustic! I'm not mixing lime per
se ... so I wonder if it's that caustic, for me?

I'd say yes- especially because your hands don't look like mason hands
yet.g


Maybe I should wear rubber boots instead of sneakers?

It all depends on how messy you are. 2 of my 2 brothers in law
helped my lay block for 2 days. at the end of the day 1 looked like
he just arrived on the job, and the other looked like he bathed in
mortar.

Jim

I'm glad this topic got mention....it is important because of the
potential for really severe problems. A minor injury today can become a
catastrophe if one gets infection from antibiotic-resistant bug. I
worked in occupational health long enough to see that many safety
measures were considered "sissy". Just a wood sliver can cause
disability if infection reaches a tendon....NO injury is a laughing
matter. I took care of a guy once who had a speck of welding stuff fly
into the back of his boot....he had a small 3rd degree burn down to his
Achilles tendon. A little larger or deeper burn might have caused a
permanent disability. He refused to go to the company doc, so I
redressed the burn every day, praying it didn't get infected; took a
long time to heal.

So, here is a link to safety issues with concrete:
http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_working.asp

Norminn wrote:
-snip-

It all depends on how messy you are. 2 of my 2 brothers in law
helped my lay block for 2 days. at the end of the day 1 looked like
he just arrived on the job, and the other looked like he bathed in
mortar.

Jim

I'm glad this topic got mention....it is important because of the
potential for really severe problems.

-snip-
So, here is a link to safety issues with concrete:
http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_working.asp

Good time to re-inforce-- Wear glasses of some sort when working
with masonry!!.

Messy brother-in-law has one eye that works. He was actually
wearing safety glasses [those 'stylish' sunglasses] when a pressurized
hose burst-- but the concrete was caustic enough to burn his cornea.

Jim

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:17:32 -0500, Frank
wrote:

On 2/5/2012 10:02 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 09:04:02 -0500, Frank wrote:

I use my wheelbarrow for mixing concrete.

Makes sense. I'll try that this morning.


Considering the multiple uses of a wheelbarrow and infrequent need for
something to mix cement, it should do you.


Though I will say-- for the price- a tub has advantages.
You can mix in it while the wheelbarrow is hauling 'stuff'.
The flat bottom is a plus when trying to get things mixed.
Easy to pick up and dump onto a site.

If your wheelbarrow is metal, the plastic tubs are a lot easier to
clean. [Just leave them at the end of the day- and beat them in the
morning to shake all the dried mortar off]

My mortar tub is also my soil mixing and potting tub-- and a
mini-barrow when I'm doing pavers.

Jim

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 07:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

It's a good thing I'm not getting paid by the hour - but at least I'm
learning how to make mistakes in my first alt.home.repair sandstone tile
& flagstone walkways:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

Hey, I asked my next door neighbor to help me lift a square of
sidewalk (not by the curb but smaller, near my front door) and he
showed up with a pair of pink rubbermaid gloves for washing dishes
with! I managed not to laugh and fortunately for his gloves, I had
leather gloves to lend him.

The only good news is that I now have no more fingerprints - so - I guess
I can rob a bank and not get caught (as long as I don't bleed on the bank
counter)!

A fallacy, some law-enforcment guy on the radio tried to convince me
of. He said that those who had their prints removed ended up with
even more distinctive prints, because to start with, everyone else has
normal prints, and the very few who have "no prints" still have
distinctive parts.

Thanks for all your help. It looks sooooo easy in the videos. But they

Alll the videos are dry. Very few are literally wet.

don't tell you all this stuff!

Glad you enjoyed it.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:37:11 -0500, micky
wrote:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

Hey, I asked my next door neighbor to help me lift a square of
sidewalk (not by the curb but smaller, near my front door) and he
showed up with a pair of pink rubbermaid gloves for washing dishes
with! I managed not to laugh and fortunately for his gloves, I had
leather gloves to lend him.


San Francisco?

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 22:11:00 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:37:11 -0500, micky
wrote:

First lesson learned was to wear better gloves!
The tips of the middle & pointer fingers of both hands are worn through
the skin already!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7493829.jpg

Hey, I asked my next door neighbor to help me lift a square of
sidewalk (not by the curb but smaller, near my front door) and he
showed up with a pair of pink rubbermaid gloves for washing dishes
with! I managed not to laugh and fortunately for his gloves, I had
leather gloves to lend him.


San Francisco?

Baltimore. Maybe his wife bought the gloves for dishes.

And he owned his home that was next to mine, and his previous home
which he rented. I assumed he did some of the repairs himself.

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 11:38:53 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Be careful! CSI can use your toe prints

I changed from sneakers to boots ... just to throw them off the trail!

Here's my 'new' wardrobe:
- Rubber-palmed gloves (instead of bare hands & leather gloves)
- Rubber boots (instead of leather sneakers)
- Rubber knee pads (instead of cloth kneepads)
etc.

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7508461.jpg

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 11:22:22 -0500, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

your hands don't look like mason hands yet.g

Here's me reaching for a cup of tea & home made pie by the wife while
working yesterday before the game halted all construction.

Are my hands looking more like a mason's yet?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7508614.jpg

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:17:32 -0500, Frank wrote:

Considering the multiple uses of a wheelbarrow and infrequent need for
something to mix cement, it should do you.

Yesterday I was buying new tools, dust masks, gloves, kneepads. Then I
spent the day up to the game building forms I now know I need, and
snapping lines for the drainage run ... so I didn't mix any mortar.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7508669.jpg

So today is the mortar mixing.

Unfortunately, I goofed and bought the 5-dollar size - which - it turns
out - can't even mix up a single 60-pound bag of mortar. So, I'll end up
using the wheelbarrow I think.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7508676.jpg

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:57:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

Along the same lines

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention I'm learning that snapping lines is critical.

So I bought a chalk line and started snapping away.

The edge against the wall is easy to get the runoff slope:
http://picturepush.com/public/7508968

But how do you get the slope away from the wall lined up?
(I snapped a line on the form but I'm positive that form will move as I
jostle it about.)

Note: I used hard plastic tubing for a joint spacer (which I can pull
away while the concrete is wet, I hope).

This should leave a tunnel for water to flow outward if more cracks form
in the connection between the wall and the stone mortar.

On 2/6/2012 1:17 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:57:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

Along the same lines

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention I'm learning that snapping lines is critical.

So I bought a chalk line and started snapping away.

The edge against the wall is easy to get the runoff slope:
http://picturepush.com/public/7508968

But how do you get the slope away from the wall lined up?
(I snapped a line on the form but I'm positive that form will move as I
jostle it about.)

Note: I used hard plastic tubing for a joint spacer (which I can pull
away while the concrete is wet, I hope).

This should leave a tunnel for water to flow outward if more cracks form
in the connection between the wall and the stone mortar.

the same way you slope a patio.

you pound in sticks in each corner, then connect them with string,
making the string be the top level of the flagstone. you tie off the
string so that it is your slope.

On 2/6/2012 1:17 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:57:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

Along the same lines

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention I'm learning that snapping lines is critical.

So I bought a chalk line and started snapping away.

The edge against the wall is easy to get the runoff slope:
http://picturepush.com/public/7508968

But how do you get the slope away from the wall lined up?
(I snapped a line on the form but I'm positive that form will move as I
jostle it about.)

Note: I used hard plastic tubing for a joint spacer (which I can pull
away while the concrete is wet, I hope).

This should leave a tunnel for water to flow outward if more cracks form
in the connection between the wall and the stone mortar.

you know, you could just go to the library and check out a book on
tiling and one on making stone/brick patios. they'd have answered every
one of the questions you've asked here.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:32:00 -0500, wrote:

A big part of the trick is getting the mortar mixed right.

I usually end up with mortar in my ear ;-)

Ever get expanding foam in your hair?

I can't imagine getting it my eyebrows :\

On 2/6/2012 1:25 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 11:38:53 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Be careful! CSI can use your toe prints

I changed from sneakers to boots ... just to throw them off the trail!

Here's my 'new' wardrobe:
- Rubber-palmed gloves (instead of bare hands& leather gloves)
- Rubber boots (instead of leather sneakers)
- Rubber knee pads (instead of cloth kneepads)
etc.

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7508461.jpg

Four decades ago, I had a summer job when I was on break from college. I
got a job in a brick factory stacking brick after it cooled down enough
from being fired in the big kilns. Cloth gloves lasted a day so
the experienced guys had leather with a grit added rubber coating on
the palms and contact areas of the fingers. Those gloves lasted a month
at least. ^_^

TDD

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:44:41 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:
A 5 gallon bucket with water / vinegar mixture (~10:1) standing by to
rinse your hands occasionally & lower skin pH.

Now that's interesting!

All my right-hand fingertips were bloody by the end of yesterday!
http://picturepush.com/public/7516571

I 'thought' they were worn by the grit.

Is everyone saying they're actually bloody due to melting of the skin by
a high (basic) pH?

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:32:00 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

A real mason never actually touches the mortar and they could be working
in a white shirt and dress pants.

Someone else mentioned that a 'real mason' also doesn't need forms.

Having read that, I 'tried' (and failed) to do the first set of stones
yesterday sans a wood form - but - hastily - I had to erect one as shown
by this picture of my mistake:
http://picturepush.com/public/7516639

From now on, it's forms ahead of time (even though they take a lot of
time)!

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:14:25 -0800, Oren wrote:

I can't imagine getting it my eyebrows

As you intimate, there was concrete everywhere!

I finally resorted to throwing the tools into a bucket of water next to
me instead of putting them down on the ground to keep the concrete from
hardening (as shown by this picture):
http://picturepush.com/public/7516723

It took 7 hours, from the first stone to the last, to complete the job.
In hindsight, I did almost everything wrong.

For just one example, the chalk line was a joke!

Sure, it 'looked' great! At first. Like disappearing ink, it washed away,
was brushed away, was covered by mortar, etc.

Only in hindsight can I say the chalk line (as shown in this picture)
turned out to be almost useless the way I did it!
http://picturepush.com/public/7516765

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 06:20:47 -0800, wrote:

I hope another lesson learned a year from now isn't that it needed a
stabilized base before you poured the concrete.

The entire job is already on a concrete footer (of unknown thickness),
so, I hope, it's sturdy!

Since the bag of concrete says "not to be used under 2 inches", I first
started using 100% mortar for the inch and a half I needed to raise the
shelf before laying the stone on top.

But, then I ran out of mortar (mistake #105 ... buy more mortar than you
need). So I had to resort to concrete.

What I did was lift up all the stones again (for the umpteenth time),
scrape away all the mortar down to the footer, and then dump the concrete
and then lay a thinner layer of mortar on top.

One other lesson I inadvertently learned was that the form gets in the
way of the wheelbarrow as shown in this picture he
http://picturepush.com/public/7516823

In the end, I should have planned this all out much better as I was
correcting mistakes made in planning more so than in laying it all out!

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:33:10 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

I usually mix the mortar in a white bucket
with a mud paddle on a 1/2" drill.

I had never thought of using a power tool to mix the 60# bags of mortar.

In the end, I switched to 1/2 mortar and 1/2 concrete (with the concrete
on the bottom layer) so I gave up on the buckets, especially after going
crazy mixing in a RECTANGULAR Costco detergent bucket (the corners were
killing me!).

So, I progressed from mixing:
a) In rectangular (new) Costco detergent buckets (corners are killers)
b) To tubular (old) Costco detergent buckets (too small)
c) To the wheelbarrow (which is just right for two bags of concrete/
mortar)

In the end, I learned to soak the cleanup towels in the wheelbarrow, used
as a reservoir as shown in this pictu
http://picturepush.com/public/7516864

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 22:56:09 +0000, RobertPatrick wrote:

It sure is interesting to see all the problems and lessons learned.

If I hadn't made so many mistakes, I guess I wouldn't have learned
anything!

Here, for example, is a picture of what happens if I pound too hard on a
water-soaked sandstone block trying to level it with its neighbors:
http://picturepush.com/public/7516879

The blasted thing broke in half!

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:32:00 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

now you just need some practice.

Yeah. Lots and lots of practice!

For example, here's a basic mistake in making the form higher than the
stone.
http://picturepush.com/public/7516952

Only when I realized that made it impossible to level the stones
lengthwise, did I learn that the form must be below the top of the stone.

I tried using a bubble level (the small round one and the short one for
strings) - but the stone is wavy so they were useless.

In the end, I didn't level the stones lengthwise at all. Lesson learned!

Another lesson learned was to cut the stakes for the form.

I kept catching my clothes on them, and, especially during the 7th hour
of this, I kept tripping over them.

I couldn't drive them in any deeper (they were hitting something mighty
hard - probably concrete) so I should have cut them off with the saw so I
wouldn't have tripped on them so many times!
http://picturepush.com/public/7516823

On 2/7/2012 2:24 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 08:44:41 -0800, DD_BobK wrote:
A 5 gallon bucket with water / vinegar mixture (~10:1) standing by to
rinse your hands occasionally& lower skin pH.

Now that's interesting!

All my right-hand fingertips were bloody by the end of yesterday!
http://picturepush.com/public/7516571

I 'thought' they were worn by the grit.

Is everyone saying they're actually bloody due to melting of the skin by
a high (basic) pH?


Darn feller! You abraded and dissolved the skin off your fingers. I once
bought something from W.W. Grainger called Liquid Glove. I don't
recall which version or from which manufacturer but I think it was in
a tube not a tub.

http://www.liquidgloves.co.za/index.html

http://preview.tinyurl.com/7dcqzjd

TDD

On 2/7/2012 1:50 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 22:56:09 +0000, RobertPatrick wrote:

It sure is interesting to see all the problems and lessons learned.

If I hadn't made so many mistakes, I guess I wouldn't have learned
anything!

Here, for example, is a picture of what happens if I pound too hard on a
water-soaked sandstone block trying to level it with its neighbors:
http://picturepush.com/public/7516879

The blasted thing broke in half!

like a helicopter is really a bunch of parts flying in formation,
sandstone is sand just barely held together. it is very soft. don't beat
on it.

In article ,
Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:32:00 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

now you just need some practice.

Yeah. Lots and lots of practice!

For example, here's a basic mistake in making the form higher than the
stone.
http://picturepush.com/public/7516952

Only when I realized that made it impossible to level the stones
lengthwise, did I learn that the form must be below the top of the stone.

I tried using a bubble level (the small round one and the short one for
strings) - but the stone is wavy so they were useless.

In the end, I didn't level the stones lengthwise at all. Lesson learned!

If you make that same mistake with the forms again, just lay a straight
sided block of wood shorter than the form width, and taller than the
height of the form above the concrete, then put the level on top of the
block.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:28:32 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 15:32:00 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

A real mason never actually touches the mortar and they could be working
in a white shirt and dress pants.

Someone else mentioned that a 'real mason' also doesn't need forms.

Having read that, I 'tried' (and failed) to do the first set of stones
yesterday sans a wood form - but - hastily - I had to erect one as shown
by this picture of my mistake:
http://picturepush.com/public/7516639

From now on, it's forms ahead of time (even though they take a lot of
time)!

In that picture, DIY, I would have just sliced off the mud past the
stone edge with a mason trowel.. then tossed it in a bucket. You
likely are better off with stiffer mud in this case.

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:33:46 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:14:25 -0800, Oren wrote:

I can't imagine getting it my eyebrows

As you intimate, there was concrete everywhere!


BTDT

I finally resorted to throwing the tools into a bucket of water next to
me instead of putting them down on the ground to keep the concrete from
hardening (as shown by this picture):
http://picturepush.com/public/7516723

It took 7 hours, from the first stone to the last, to complete the job.
In hindsight, I did almost everything wrong.

"... did almost everything wrong." No, but you do have a
perfectionists streak in you. That is one habit I've learned to let
go of. "It looks good from my house!"


For just one example, the chalk line was a joke!

Sure, it 'looked' great! At first. Like disappearing ink, it washed away,
was brushed away, was covered by mortar, etc.

Only in hindsight can I say the chalk line (as shown in this picture)
turned out to be almost useless the way I did it!
http://picturepush.com/public/7516765

That blue chalk is normal DIY stuff. There are other types that last
much longer, even after a good rain shower. calls for research