My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.

This is all fine and dandy, but the old ballast technology seems to be
a lot more reliable. I hear people complaining that all those
"energy savings" end up being paid to electricians swapping those
electronic ballasts, that die right after warranty expires.

First of all, is this a valid concern?

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

I am facing the fact that I need to do something about my lighting. I
do not want to do something stupid.


i

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.

This is all fine and dandy, but the old ballast technology seems to be
a lot more reliable. I hear people complaining that all those
"energy savings" end up being paid to electricians swapping those
electronic ballasts, that die right after warranty expires.

First of all, is this a valid concern?

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

I am facing the fact that I need to do something about my lighting. I
do not want to do something stupid.


As I understand it, T12 tubes are going away.
But T8 tubes "usually" work fine with T12 ballast.
I've seen it said the T8 tubes don't last as long in a T12, but no
proof of that.
Try some T8 tubes in a couple fixtures and see how that goes.
No sense changing the ballasts if it's costing you nothing to keep
them.

--Vic

On 12/28/2011 8:19 PM, Ignoramus4193 wrote:
My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.

This is all fine and dandy, but the old ballast technology seems to be
a lot more reliable. I hear people complaining that all those
"energy savings" end up being paid to electricians swapping those
electronic ballasts, that die right after warranty expires.

First of all, is this a valid concern?

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

I am facing the fact that I need to do something about my lighting. I
do not want to do something stupid.


i
When the T8 ballasts first came on the scene, I don't think any that I
came in contact with commercially, lasted more than a year. I couldn't
say how many generations have past since then, but the current crop of
electronic ballasts seem quite durable to me. Having said that, very
often magnetic ballasts die a slow death, where as electronic ballasts
go instantly, when they die. also a three or four light fixture would
have more than one magnetic ballast, so the entire fixture doesn't die
at the same time as with an electronic ballast.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 20:30:38 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:


No sense changing the ballasts if it's costing you nothing to keep
them.

--Vic

It is costing something to keep them. New fixtures are more
efficient. Worth checking what the payback is and what rebates are
available.

On 12/28/2011 10:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.



More corporate welfare financed by the little people.

On 2011-12-29, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.


Yes, 100% commercial warehouse. 10k square feet. I got some quotes and
I will be getting some rebates.

i

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:30:54 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 20:30:38 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:


No sense changing the ballasts if it's costing you nothing to keep
them.

--Vic

It is costing something to keep them. New fixtures are more
efficient. Worth checking what the payback is and what rebates are
available.

True enough about running the numbers, including labor.
My main point - which I forgot to put in - is he shouldn't feel
rushed, and his old fixtures won't suddenly be obsolete.
As long as he tests to confirm that.
There's a chance ballast production will increase beyond demand
because of all the fear-mongering, and be dirt cheap a year after
the "phase out."
That might even happen with the incandescents.
So many people are stockpiling 100 Watt incandescents they'll be
selling them on eBay for a nickel each with free shipping.
Like Johnny Reb cash.
The rebates somebody mentioned also have to be considered if they
apply.

--Vic

"Parker Farnsworthy" wrote
On 12/28/2011 10:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are
from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that
they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production
and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.



More corporate welfare financed by the little people.

Likely not.

With the ever increasing demand for power (more PCs, microwaves, etc.)
the electric companies are faced with the decision of upgrading the
system or paying people to cut demand, and the cost of upgrading the
transmission lines and transformers is much greater than the increased
revenue of selling more electricity.

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...

Ignoramus4193 wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.

This is all fine and dandy, but the old ballast technology seems to be
a lot more reliable. I hear people complaining that all those
"energy savings" end up being paid to electricians swapping those
electronic ballasts, that die right after warranty expires.

First of all, is this a valid concern?

My shop lighting is 7 of the $15 dual T8 fixtures from 'Depot/Lowe's,
some of the fixtures are now about 9 years old and still working fine,
so I don't think it's a big concern.

I have the same, but mine cost a couple dollars more and are only about 5
years old. Only thing I noticed is when the temps inside the shop get into
the 50s they are slow to come to full brightness. So far haven't had to
replace bulbs or ballasts. I think I have about 17 fixtures. In that same
time I have had to replace 2 CFLs in the office inside the shop.

In article ,
Ignoramus4193 wrote:

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

IMHO, ballasts are a place where you both have to shop carefully, and
where a brand like GE may mean you are getting better quality-control on
the chinese crap (unless you happen to get non-chinese after all.)

Galesburg electric is one of the better online sources I've found so far
- they don't carry (or at least list) all the variants, but they have
some at very attractive prices relative to some other sources. If you
get a wholesaler that will deal with you you might do better.

For your application, if 4' lamps, the $13.72 2-lamp or $17.25 4-lamp
GE ultra max. Both 120-277V input. those are the lower light/lower power
variant of those ballasts, and I don't believe that galesbug carries the
higher light/power variants, but the places I found that did also cost a
lot more.

$25 for 2lamp 8ft - Few bucks cheaper if it's 120V only, but I assume
you probably have 277V lighting circuits with a 3-phase service; Perhaps
not.

The 1970's "look" of your lamps probably comes with more steel and
perhaps even real porcelain baked on (easy to clean, stays whiter)
finish as opposed to the tinfoil-thin steel and crappy white paint of
"new" fixtures. Swap the ballasts, clean and go.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On 2011-12-29, Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus4193 wrote:

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

IMHO, ballasts are a place where you both have to shop carefully, and
where a brand like GE may mean you are getting better quality-control on
the chinese crap (unless you happen to get non-chinese after all.)

Galesburg electric is one of the better online sources I've found so far
- they don't carry (or at least list) all the variants, but they have
some at very attractive prices relative to some other sources. If you
get a wholesaler that will deal with you you might do better.

For your application, if 4' lamps, the $13.72 2-lamp or $17.25 4-lamp
GE ultra max. Both 120-277V input. those are the lower light/lower power
variant of those ballasts, and I don't believe that galesbug carries the
higher light/power variants, but the places I found that did also cost a
lot more.

$25 for 2lamp 8ft - Few bucks cheaper if it's 120V only, but I assume
you probably have 277V lighting circuits with a 3-phase service; Perhaps
not.

The 1970's "look" of your lamps probably comes with more steel and
perhaps even real porcelain baked on (easy to clean, stays whiter)
finish as opposed to the tinfoil-thin steel and crappy white paint of
"new" fixtures. Swap the ballasts, clean and go.


I was also reading about it. Looks like, like you said, I can replace
ballasts and start using T8 bulbs, right? And I can hire a $12/hr guy
to do it? (I am too busy by far)

i

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:29:09 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.


Here in California...Edison will come in and for Free..change out about
50% of the tubes AND ballasts.

Unfortunately the ballasts last about 3 months...VBG but it gives me
a few hours service redoing them with decent ballasts

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:38:35 -0500, Parker Farnsworthy
wrote:





Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.



More corporate welfare financed by the little people.

No, it is financed by other corporations. A portion of the bill goes
to that category for rebates. The residential rebate is from a
residential account. If you don't take your share, someone else is
going to and you still pay into it.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:44:43 -0500, Ecnerwal
wrote:




IMHO, ballasts are a place where you both have to shop carefully, and
where a brand like GE may mean you are getting better quality-control on
the chinese crap (unless you happen to get non-chinese after all.)

We've replaced six GE ballasts that are three years old. I think they
were made in China too. They were under warranty though.

Ignoramus4193 wrote:

-snip-

I was also reading about it. Looks like, like you said, I can replace
ballasts and start using T8 bulbs, right? And I can hire a $12/hr guy
to do it? (I am too busy by far)

Got a BOSCES or trade school nearby? Might be a good project for
the kids-- bring them 1/2 at a time.

If all your lights are the same, it is easy once the pattern is
figured out. In my dozen I ran across 4-5 different ways that they
were wired up. [I don't remember any particulars, but remember a fair
amount of head-scratching went on during the project]

Oh-- and I have to say these have been more reliable than my
collection of cheap shoplights that I had accumulated. 2 years down
and not even a bulb has needed replacing. About 1/2 of them are on
12/7.

Jim

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

As I understand it, T12 tubes are going away.
But T8 tubes "usually" work fine with T12 ballast.
I've seen it said the T8 tubes don't last as long in a T12, but no
proof of that.
Try some T8 tubes in a couple fixtures and see how that goes.
No sense changing the ballasts if it's costing you nothing to keep
them.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a T8 bulb will work
with a T12 ballast.

Part of my job requires the conversion of T12 to T8 within our campus. We
are changing all ballasts to T8 universal 120-277v. Sticking a T8 bulb in a
fixture with T12 doesn't light the bulb.

On Dec 28, 11:22*pm, "Stephen B."
wrote:
"Parker Farnsworthy" *wrote
More corporate welfare financed by the little people.

Likely not.

With the ever increasing demand for power (more PCs, microwaves, etc.)
the electric companies are faced with the decision of upgrading the
system or paying people to cut demand, and the cost of upgrading the
transmission lines and transformers is much greater than the increased
revenue of selling more electricity.

Where do you think that money comes from? You think the power company
has a nest egg stashed away in the sock drawer for this?

No, they blow every penny that comes in just like the rest of us. When
faced with either upgrading the system or paying people to cut demand,
they go crying to the government for a hand-out.

On 12/29/2011 8:58 AM, wrote:
On Dec 28, 11:22 pm, "Stephen
wrote:
"Parker Farnsworthy" wrote
More corporate welfare financed by the little people.

Likely not.

With the ever increasing demand for power (more PCs, microwaves, etc.)
the electric companies are faced with the decision of upgrading the
system or paying people to cut demand, and the cost of upgrading the
transmission lines and transformers is much greater than the increased
revenue of selling more electricity.

Where do you think that money comes from? You think the power company
has a nest egg stashed away in the sock drawer for this?

No, they blow every penny that comes in just like the rest of us. When
faced with either upgrading the system or paying people to cut demand,
they go crying to the government for a hand-out.

Yep, the only difference between a welfare check and a corporate bailout
is the number of digits before the decimal place.

Either way, Joe "W-2" Wageslave gets stuck with the bill.

wrote:

Where do you think that money comes from? You think the power company
has a nest egg stashed away in the sock drawer for this?

Exactly. There's nice little below the line charge on my electric bill every
month called "Energy Conservation Fee" that funds these program in my area.

Ignoramus4193 wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.
Well, can you calculate the power bill due to these lights? You might be
able to read the meter for an hour with the lights off and then with them
on to get an accurate idea.

Right now, there are big changes coming in large area lighting. I'm not
sure LED lighting systems are completely cost-effective yet, but it is
certainly worth checking out what is available. If you lighting costs are
going to be several thousand $ per year, then it may already make sense to
convert to LEDs and amortize it over the next several years. Or, it may
make sense to hold off on any expensive purchases for just one year and
then go for the latest energy-saving technology.

I have seen some tubular LED systems that I guess are designed to fit
existing fixtures. I assume you have to replace the ballast with an LED
power source at the same time.

We have a lecture hall at work that is ALL LED, and it works fine.
This is both room lighting and stage lighting. I don't know how
cost-effective this system was, however.


Jon

Jon Elson wrote:

Ignoramus4193 wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.
Well, can you calculate the power bill due to these lights? You might be
able to read the meter for an hour with the lights off and then with them
on to get an accurate idea.

Right now, there are big changes coming in large area lighting. I'm not
sure LED lighting systems are completely cost-effective yet, but it is
certainly worth checking out what is available. If you lighting costs are
going to be several thousand $ per year, then it may already make sense to
convert to LEDs and amortize it over the next several years. Or, it may
make sense to hold off on any expensive purchases for just one year and
then go for the latest energy-saving technology.

I have seen some tubular LED systems that I guess are designed to fit
existing fixtures. I assume you have to replace the ballast with an LED
power source at the same time.

We have a lecture hall at work that is ALL LED, and it works fine.
This is both room lighting and stage lighting. I don't know how
cost-effective this system was, however.

Jon

Some recently built / widened intersections around here appear to have
LED street lights. I expect they are $$$ but they seem to work well.

One suggestion for Iggy that may improve lighting efficiency and save
money is to fully pressure wash the interior of his building (power off,
etc) and then paint the walls, ceiling, beams, etc. (airless sprayer
from 5gal buckets) with fresh white paint. It's amazing how much less
actual lighting is required when the ceiling is all white and reflects
light back down instead of absorbing it.

"Robert Neville" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Where do you think that money comes from? You think the power company
has a nest egg stashed away in the sock drawer for this?

Exactly. There's nice little below the line charge on my electric bill
every
month called "Energy Conservation Fee" that funds these program in my
area.

It's not money from the government, it's something worked out with the
public service commission and paid for by consumers. You would also pay for
the construction of a new power plant, if that was necessary.

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.

This is all fine and dandy, but the old ballast technology seems to be
a lot more reliable. I hear people complaining that all those
"energy savings" end up being paid to electricians swapping those
electronic ballasts, that die right after warranty expires.

First of all, is this a valid concern?

Second, I am convinced that the world knows how to make reliable
electronic ballasts. It is just that the manufacturers choose to make
crap, for the usual reasons. That said, are there T8 ballasts that are
"honestly made" and reliable?

Yes, GE and Magnatek and the other biggies know how.

Now whether they'll DO it is a whole different question - it's a huge
learning curve as they try using crap commodity SMT devices on the
electronic ballasts, they blow up in service, and they have to deal
with a crapload of warranty returns.

Always Date Everything - get paint markers and put the date on the
fixture can and the ballast itself when you install it. They can try
to argue about it, but you can show them the date and the invoices
associated with that ballast, it's still in warranty, gimme another.

They'll try to make the warranty date when you bought it, you might
have to fight to start the clock when you actually put it in service 3
or 6 months later. But you can get it.

Lithonia is getting a lot of the F22T9 Circline fixtures back from me
with blown Chinese crap ballasts - often it's the electrolytics going
Bang somewhere between 1 and 2 years. Same fixture only running a few
hours a day, and far less problems.

Having to run 24/7 is the worst duty for an electronic ballast, but
you can't get magnetics anymore. But one building I deal with just
goes and orders themselves another dozen new fixtures, and I swap the
whole thing when the old one blows... Go figure.

The best ones are the ballast boards in the screw-in CFL Fluorescents
that not only blow up they catch on fire. "Mean Time Between
Failures" isn't supposed to include Flamage.

I am facing the fact that I need to do something about my lighting. I
do not want to do something stupid.

That's never stopped you before... ;-P :rimshot:

Check out the prices on retrofitting what you've got with electronic
ballasts, reflectors, and new lamps, and putting up new strips
totally. And since that was a cutter grinding shop and you're going
to find lots of "surprises" up there, I'd weight it more toward total
replacement.

The reflectors on new or retrofit lights are important, you really
don't need to light up the ceiling - you want the light going down on
your work. And they've done studies, specular chrome doesn't work any
better than a nice clean white.

For the "Warehouse" areas that are wired and rigged for Low Bay or
High Bay lights, you get the pre-made 6-lamp T-5 replacements and pop
them into the same space. But you get the lights dropped to 9' or so
over Repair and Cleanup work tables and the Shipping area - levels
need to be a lot higher for fine work.

And with any system, pay attention to the options.

If the Warehouse has 50 lights on one or two 277V circuits you want
to put individual fuseholders in each fixture. Because you'll play
hell tracking down a grounded ballast that takes the whole room out at
one shot - the fuse will clear that fixture alone, and the rest go
merrily burning along.

Put "Night Lights" over the back and side doors, over the power panel,
and a few on the aisles, just enough light to keep from killing
yourself if you have to maneuver back to the power panels with the
main room lights off. Try to get Old School fixtures with magnetic
ballasts for this, and put a service switch on the side of the can so
you can cut off the 24/7 fixture long enough to work on it.

-- Bruce --

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.

The power company here will provide and install the new lights at no
cost to the business owner, according to my electrician.

On 1/3/2012 11:38 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ,
Ed wrote:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 19:19:50 -0600, Ignoramus4193
wrote:

My warehouse is lit by T12 based lights that seem like they are from
1970s or 1980s. The minus is that they look old, the plus is that they
are still around after all those years.

As we all know, T12 is being replaced by T8 and T5 lights.


Is this a commercial warehouse? If so, contact the power company.
Some are offering rebates for new lighting. We did our production and
warehouse and the rebate was about $9000.

The power company here will provide and install the new lights at no
cost to the business owner, according to my electrician.

If you're a Fortune 500 company and your local municipality leans to the
right, they will grant your company a 20 year tax break too.